Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
Boris Meyer wrote: no one cares about security and I think swinog should care about security! use IRC, install one of the thousands IRC clients available and ask your security guru to open the port, or do it on your own ^^ You can connect via SSL for a little bit of enhanced security (and the connection between the servers is also encrypted). As alternative of Skype, we can take it to the max and use the chat-system of World of Warcraft. We just have to choose, if we play for Alliance or Horde and may use the guild chat (the famous n00b-pwning Swinog-Guild) /badhumour good one :-) we can also use pro7.de chat :P haha Boris. ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
Stanislav Sinyagin schrieb: From: Martin Ebnoether [EMAIL PROTECTED] All that is needed to take Skype down is an automatic windows update of some thousand computers. Remember last summer? http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20070819 hey Venty, long time no see :) if you remember, back in 2003-2004 there were viruses which knocked down hundreds of thousands of windows PCs. So what, we're still using that :) Well, you maybe - I don't ;-) But then, I also didn't use Windows in 2003, either... Nowadays, the viruses don't knock down the Windows-boxes, they just use them as Spam-Zombies or attack-drones or whatever the people that rent them want to use them for. If the tool serves my needs, I don't really care if it's open source - I'm not going to compile anything on my desktop anyway. And if it collects any marketing stats, so what, everyone is doing that, and we're helping them (Coop Supercard for example). I don't have any of those, either. There's nothing bad about companies knowing better what I might buy from them :-) I think you are oversimplifying and trivializing what these databases can be used for. Nowadays, these giant databases of consumer buying-behavior are probably also used to find potential terrorists. Who bought box-cutters and what did they buy with them? Who bought box-cutters only? Who bought the other items alone that the people buying box-cutters and other items bought? It's hilarious, but that's how some people actually believe the war against terror can be won. Also, I think you should do some reading regarding the Skype application. I think that if it wasn't for its widespread use, most AV-programs would consider it malware. The executable itself is packed and encrypted and actively tries to avoid debugging/reverse-engineering by in-memory debuggers. The communication itself is encrypted with an unknown encryption-method. And of course, yes, no source code is available (for the general public). I did sign up for an account and used it for a few times - but just because I didn't have time to setup my own Jabber server and experiment with iChat ;-) I've got a _very_ bad feeling using this app - it's just scary. Rainer ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
i was requesting twice on http://www.warmduscher- abc.ch/warmduscher_abc.asp to add the term Skype-Benutzer but as the maintainer seems to be an skype fan it getting ignored Roger Am 7 Oct 2008 um 9:32 hat Marco Fretz geschrieben: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IRC is cool - IRC is a geek tool ,-)) skype is something for warmduscher (well, i've got an account since 2 days...) ,-)) yes, IRC is old-school. it's just great, coding own bots, irc clients, etc... lot of possibilities. Skype is like MSN Messenger, just another ugly overloaded communication tool. if I have to choose between skype and MSN, it's MSN, because there are a lot of opensource and freeware alternatives to the bad Live Messenger from Microschrott, ah Microsoft... :-) -steven -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stanislav Sinyagin Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 4:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ? why doesn't someone create a public Skype chat for SwiNOG? I think more people on this list have skype than IRC client software (me, for example :-) - Original Message From: Boris Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 3:51:20 PM Subject: Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ? PS: The actual list of all available servers is listed at: http://irc.subcult.ch As a result of a DDoS against the SwissIX IP-Range the prefix of SwissIX is at the moment only reachable by its peers. We are working towards bringing the irc-server back online. But in the mean time eiher use another server of the mesh or have a SwissIX-connected ISP ;). ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
12:54 -!- Irssi: Connecting to irc.subcult.ch [213.180.174.250] port 6667 12:54 -!- Irssi: Connection to irc.subcult.ch established 12:54 !irc.subcult.ch *** Looking up your hostname... 12:54 !irc.subcult.ch *** Checking Ident 12:54 !irc.subcult.ch *** No Ident response 12:54 !irc.subcult.ch *** Found your hostname 12:54 -!- Welcome to the SubCultNET Internet Relay Chat Network boris etc etc... Don't see your problem. Maybe some client issues? Anyway, there are 4 possible servers, just check http://irc.subcult.ch Regards, Boris [Tue.06:07] -irc.subcult.ch- *** Checking Ident - [Tue.06:07] -irc.subcult.ch- *** Found your hostname and thats it .. stays there .. after 4 minutes the client disc. and retry to connect. will be shure in 30 minutes everything will be fine again so i really would be happy when irc.swinog.ch is back on the net, there i never experienced that Roger Am 7 Oct 2008 um 1:27 hat Scott Weeks geschrieben: I can't resist. ...if it collects any marketing stats, so what, everyone is doing that... Only from the unknowledgeable that don't control Javascript (NoScript), flash (etc.), cookies or 'stuff'. Therefore, you have skewed stats. ...There's nothing bad about companies knowing better what I might buy from them... Yes, there is. scott --- ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?)
Salut, Per, On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 07:38:56 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: The idea of open source is not so much that you get to check it yourself, but much more that it is open for hundreds of thousands of other people to check. If for instance the quality/security of a piece of code is proportional to the number of times it's been reviewed, then yes, open source is quite possibly more secure. You should read the more recent publications on the subject. The idea that this actually happens is a pure illusion. I think that the advantage of Open Source does indeed lie in the fact that you have the ability to fix things yourself, and that, whatever you start, you have a large pool of preexistent code you can build on. And the ability to learn from it etc. Tonnerre signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
[swinog] Embedded Linux practicing
ok guys, now some real stuff :) I've got one of these boards http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4514239441.html in order to practice my skills in embedded linux applications. My first mini-project is to build a small Wifi (or even Bluetooth?) hotspot (only for home use, of course) which would take its Internet feed from one of those mobile USB GPS modems that you get for few francs a month from Swisscom or Sunrise. any ideas what else could be an interesting project? Or probably you have a real project in mind? cheers, stan ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing
Bernard, this one looks really nice. If you've got the sponsoring, then I'm in :) - Original Message From: Bernard Dugas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 2:18:29 PM Subject: Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing Hello, Stanislav Sinyagin wrote: any ideas what else could be an interesting project? Or probably you have a real project in mind? What about : - a device that would be installed in cars , - to build a mesh wifi 2.45GHz between cars, - and a 5.4GHz to some external relays when available, - to allow for transmission between cars of : . fast alarm (strong acceleration/deccelaration) ; . relative positionning ; . voip diffusion to close cars ; . engine technical parameters (for maintenance) ; - and dynamic internet relaying to closer external relays ; - available with open source (Linux+bsd). ? Best regards, -- __Bernard DUGAS _ | IS Production s.a. Innovative Solutions Production | | Technoparc Pays de Gex[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | 30 Rue Auguste Piccard Mob.: +33 615 333 770 | | 01630 St Genis Pouilly - FRANCE -Fax : +33 450 205 106 | |_| ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
Open does not implicitly mean crap and closed also don’t mean automatically good... Actually I'm sick and tired of discussions regarding opensource as most of the time they just flame up (as here). My 2 cts: Use whatever you want, have your idea about it, but don't try to convince others about what is right or wrong. I have my idea about it and if someone what to know more he can contact me offlist. Have a nice day :-) Daniele -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeroen Massar Sent: Dienstag, 7. Oktober 2008 14:33 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [swinog] open source illusions Silvan Gebhardt wrote: I guess it's not about Fixing but also expanding small example: I use a extension to my gnome panel called SSH Menu I can add hosts which it opens me a ssh session in a terminal just by clicking on the menu entry. now I wanted to expand that to include RDP Sessions - okay - took the code, and have it rewritten. so that IS actually an advantage! and I did not have to consult the developers at all, I just checked out the code And there is your illusion, as you will want to stay up-to-date, and as such, you will have to get the new version (because it is cooler, or actually because it contains so many security fixes because the code quality is really really bad, which is the case in a lot of projects), and then you find out that getting your cool little fix into their code is most likely not going to happen, unless you can persuade them really well or take a long time campaigning for it, and then they change the API or complete structure of the code and you have to redo your change, for small changes that might be fine, for larger ones, you are basically peeped. Better then to pay the closed source folks and let them do it, as they will also maintain the changes for yo. Greets, Jeroen No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1665 - Release Date: 10/6/2008 5:37 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1665 - Release Date: 10/6/2008 5:37 PM This e-mail, any associated files and the information contained in them are confidential and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please notify the originator and delete the email immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. E-mails to and from the company are monitored for operational reasons and in accordance with lawful business practices. Any opinions expressed are those of the individual and do not necessarily represent the views of the company. The company does not conclude contracts by email and all negotiations are subject to contract. We make every effort to maintain our network free from computer viruses but accept no responsibility for any viruses which might be transferred by this e-mail. ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
Hello! Am 07.10.08 14:33 schrieb Jeroen Massar unter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Better then to pay the closed source folks and let them do it, as they will also maintain the changes for yo. Each day I work with Open Source and Closed Source tools and applications. Usually I see commercial software coming with a better usability and OpenSource with better stability and performance. The major advantage for OpenSource is the visibility of the code - no code monkey is able to hide 20 years old buggy crap when he needs to provide the sources. Believe me, this is a great motivation for a lot of coders out there ;-) Even more, when you pay licenses host or by CPU, which means today _per_core_, why should a commercial software supplier optimize their binaries? Even simple tasks like using a commercial compiler instead of gcc, which gives 10-100% additional performance, is often not done as the compiler costs $1000 extra - compare this with the several hundred thousends the scoftware company usually earns per year... Beat -- \|/ Beat Rubischon [EMAIL PROTECTED] ( 0^0 ) http://www.0x1b.ch/~beat/ oOO--(_)--OOo--- Meine Erlebnisse, Gedanken und Traeume: http://www.0x1b.ch/blog/ ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
Guazzoni Daniele, CH wrote: Open does not implicitly mean crap and closed also don’t mean automatically good... Actually I'm sick and tired I hope you get better soon *wink* of discussions regarding opensource as most of the time they just flame up (as here). See the subject line that I made it, unfortunately it got changed again. My 2 cts: Use whatever you want, have your idea about it, but don't try to convince others about what is right or wrong. Same counts for every religion ;) Greets, Jeroen signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing
Stanislav Sinyagin wrote: Bernard, this one looks really nice. If you've got the sponsoring, then I'm in :) I was answering to ideas question, no sponsoring question :-) But anybody else interested in sponsoring ? any ideas what else could be an interesting project? Best regrads, -- __Bernard DUGAS _ | IS Production s.a. Innovative Solutions Production | | Technoparc Pays de Gex [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | 30 Rue Auguste Piccard Mob.: +33 615 333 770 | | 01630 St Genis Pouilly - FRANCE -Fax : +33 450 205 106 | |_| ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing
Stanislav Sinyagin wrote: Bernard, this one looks really nice. If you've got the sponsoring, then I'm in :) I was answering to ideas question, no sponsoring question :-) But anybody else interested in sponsoring ? any ideas what else could be an interesting project? Best regards, -- __Bernard DUGAS _ | IS Production s.a. Innovative Solutions Production | | Technoparc Pays de Gex [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | 30 Rue Auguste Piccard Mob.: +33 615 333 770 | | 01630 St Genis Pouilly - FRANCE -Fax : +33 450 205 106 | |_| ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
Beat Rubischon wrote: Hello! Am 07.10.08 14:33 schrieb Jeroen Massar unter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Better then to pay the closed source folks and let them do it, as they will also maintain the changes for yo. Each day I work with Open Source and Closed Source tools and applications. Usually I see commercial software coming with a better usability and OpenSource with better stability and performance. I think it all depends on where it comes from and how much the authors of the tool love it and how much time they can spend on it. The major advantage for OpenSource is the visibility of the code - no code monkey is able to hide 20 years old buggy crap when he needs to provide the sources. Believe me, this is a great motivation for a lot of coders out there ;-) Which is why for instance that great Open Source thing called Linux contains so much junk I guess ;) Yes, the visibility is there, but there are only few people who can actually understands what it does. That nice Debian prng issue of late comes to mind as an awesome example here, even though it was very visible that it was changed, clearly nobody ever really checked upto then, thus it went completely unnoticed. Even more, when you pay licenses host or by CPU, which means today _per_core_, why should a commercial software supplier optimize their binaries? To be better, cheaper, faster etc than the competition? Or to just make sure that there is no competition as they suck compared to what you do. Some people pride their work ;) Even simple tasks like using a commercial compiler instead of gcc, which gives 10-100% additional performance, is often not done as the compiler costs $1000 extra - compare this with the several hundred thousends the scoftware company usually earns per year... ICC++ But gcc is getting quite upto par actually as a certain company has donated a lot of code to the compiler to beef it up quite a bit. I am one of those 'commercial' folks who also does open source stuff, and for a certain project has one single challenge: be better than everybody else. That includes making it very scalable and very fast. If those components where not in there, then what would be the fun. Again, it all depends where you get your stuff from, and like mostly everything you can vote by not using it. Greets, Jeroen signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
so .. we have to be carefull what we buy .. more difficult than buy something 1938 .. where you could be sued for buying electronic parts which could enable you to hear other Radio programms than göbbels-schnauze never buy more than one cutter-knive at one time, or you could be a possi ble suspect for mass-murdering ...lol Roger Stanislav Sinyagin schrieb: From: Martin Ebnoether [EMAIL PROTECTED] All that is needed to take Skype down is an automatic windows update of some thousand computers. Remember last summer? http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20070819 hey Venty, long time no see :) if you remember, back in 2003-2004 there were viruses which knocked down hundreds of thousands of windows PCs. So what, we're still using that :) Well, you maybe - I don't ;-) But then, I also didn't use Windows in 2003, either... Nowadays, the viruses don't knock down the Windows-boxes, they just use them as Spam-Zombies or attack-drones or whatever the people that rent them want to use them for. If the tool serves my needs, I don't really care if it's open source - I'm not going to compile anything on my desktop anyway. And if it collects any marketing stats, so what, everyone is doing that, and we're helping them (Coop Supercard for example). I don't have any of those, either. There's nothing bad about companies knowing better what I might buy from them :-) I think you are oversimplifying and trivializing what these databases can be used for. Nowadays, these giant databases of consumer buying-behavior are probably also used to find potential terrorists. Who bought box-cutters and what did they buy with them? Who bought box-cutters only? Who bought the other items alone that the people buying box-cutters and other items bought? It's hilarious, but that's how some people actually believe the war against terror can be won. Also, I think you should do some reading regarding the Skype application. I think that if it wasn't for its widespread use, most AV-programs would consider it malware. The executable itself is packed and encrypted and actively tries to avoid debugging/reverse-engineering by in-memory debuggers. The communication itself is encrypted with an unknown encryption-method. And of course, yes, no source code is available (for the general public). I did sign up for an account and used it for a few times - but just because I didn't have time to setup my own Jabber server and experiment with iChat ;-) I've got a _very_ bad feeling using this app - it's just scary. Rainer ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions (was: Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?))
Tonnerre Lombard wrote: Salut, Per, On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:01:24 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: fixing something yourself is also pretty much an illusion, except for those few people who are sufficiently involved. When have you last _had_ to fix anything yourself in a stable release of any open source project? Being a member of the security scene, I write patches for Open Source software almost every day. And what about you? I am 99% an open source _user_, and I have only written very few patches. Which proves my point, I think. /Per Jessen, Herrliberg ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
Silvan Gebhardt wrote: I guess it's not about Fixing but also expanding small example: I use a extension to my gnome panel called SSH Menu I can add hosts which it opens me a ssh session in a terminal just by clicking on the menu entry. now I wanted to expand that to include RDP Sessions - okay - took the code, and have it rewritten. so that IS actually an advantage! and I did not have to consult the developers at all, I just checked out the code Sure, this is very possible with open source, and it's certainly one of the advantages - nonetheless, most open source users still do not make use of this possibility. Which is why it is mostly an illusion. /Per Jessen, Herrliberg ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
back to the orginal topic, today the same again [Tue.06:07] -irc.subcult.ch- *** Checking Ident - [Tue.06:07] -irc.subcult.ch- *** Found your hostname and thats it .. stays there .. after 4 minutes the client disc. and retry to connect. will be shure in 30 minutes everything will be fine again so i really would be happy when irc.swinog.ch is back on the net, there i never experienced that Roger Am 7 Oct 2008 um 1:27 hat Scott Weeks geschrieben: I can't resist. ...if it collects any marketing stats, so what, everyone is doing that... Only from the unknowledgeable that don't control Javascript (NoScript), flash (etc.), cookies or 'stuff'. Therefore, you have skewed stats. ...There's nothing bad about companies knowing better what I might buy from them... Yes, there is. scott --- ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
[swinog] open source illusions (was: Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?))
Tonnerre Lombard wrote: I think that the advantage of Open Source does indeed lie in the fact that you have the ability to fix things yourself, Hi Tonnerre fixing something yourself is also pretty much an illusion, except for those few people who are sufficiently involved. When have you last _had_ to fix anything yourself in a stable release of any open source project? /Per Jessen, Herrliberg ZH ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing
go and contact Swisscom Innovations - they probably would try to sell this - as long as it's using the MOBILE network (wifi/umts) ,-) -steven -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stanislav Sinyagin Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing - Original Message From: Bernard Dugas [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was answering to ideas question, no sponsoring question :-) what you described is actually a) quite expensive to build. I would estimate the development work as few hundred thousand euro, if not more -- if we're talking of a consumer-ready product, not just a bunch of sources everyone is free to compile at his own risk :) b) is what the car manufacturers should sponsor, as it's them who is interested in selling more cars with luxury options like you've mentioned :) ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?)
On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:11:45 +0200 Tonnerre Lombard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 07:38:56 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: The idea of open source is not so much that you get to check it yourself, but much more that it is open for hundreds of thousands of other people to check. If for instance the quality/security of a piece of code is proportional to the number of times it's been reviewed, then yes, open source is quite possibly more secure. You should read the more recent publications on the subject. The idea that this actually happens is a pure illusion. Can you name some of these recent publications? I'd be much interested to read them. Attila Kinali -- If you want to walk fast, walk alone. If you want to walk far, walk together. -- African proverb ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
I guess it's not about Fixing but also expanding small example: I use a extension to my gnome panel called SSH Menu I can add hosts which it opens me a ssh session in a terminal just by clicking on the menu entry. now I wanted to expand that to include RDP Sessions - okay - took the code, and have it rewritten. so that IS actually an advantage! and I did not have to consult the developers at all, I just checked out the code Per Jessen schrieb: Tonnerre Lombard wrote: I think that the advantage of Open Source does indeed lie in the fact that you have the ability to fix things yourself, Hi Tonnerre fixing something yourself is also pretty much an illusion, except for those few people who are sufficiently involved. When have you last _had_ to fix anything yourself in a stable release of any open source project? /Per Jessen, Herrliberg ZH ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
Silvan Gebhardt wrote: I guess it's not about Fixing but also expanding small example: I use a extension to my gnome panel called SSH Menu I can add hosts which it opens me a ssh session in a terminal just by clicking on the menu entry. now I wanted to expand that to include RDP Sessions - okay - took the code, and have it rewritten. so that IS actually an advantage! and I did not have to consult the developers at all, I just checked out the code And there is your illusion, as you will want to stay up-to-date, and as such, you will have to get the new version (because it is cooler, or actually because it contains so many security fixes because the code quality is really really bad, which is the case in a lot of projects), and then you find out that getting your cool little fix into their code is most likely not going to happen, unless you can persuade them really well or take a long time campaigning for it, and then they change the API or complete structure of the code and you have to redo your change, for small changes that might be fine, for larger ones, you are basically peeped. Better then to pay the closed source folks and let them do it, as they will also maintain the changes for yo. Greets, Jeroen signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
Hoi Beat, On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:07:45 +0200 Beat Rubischon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The major advantage for OpenSource is the visibility of the code - no code monkey is able to hide 20 years old buggy crap when he needs to provide the sources. Believe me, this is a great motivation for a lot of coders out there ;-) I've never seen 20y old code in any OSS project (ok, i've never bothered to look at such old projects), but i know more than one project that contains crap code that is 10y old and nobody dares to touch it, because nobody fully understands it. So that argument is pretty much void ;-) Even more, when you pay licenses host or by CPU, which means today _per_core_, why should a commercial software supplier optimize their binaries? Even simple tasks like using a commercial compiler instead of gcc, which gives 10-100% additional performance, is often not done as the compiler costs $1000 extra - compare this with the several hundred thousends the scoftware company usually earns per year... Anyone who has ever written more than a few lines of C code knows that gcc is crap... unfortunately, it's the best compiler out there. The comercial compilers usualy segfault at every second file of my favorite compiler testbench, commonly known as FFmpeg. Well, at least Intel did a good job of fixing most of their bugs, but it took them years. How long it will take sun to fix their compiler, which is even worse is anyones guess. And i'm not yet talking about compiler that emit incorrect code. Attila Kinali -- If you want to walk fast, walk alone. If you want to walk far, walk together. -- African proverb ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
On the Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 12:26:37AM -0700, Stanislav Sinyagin blubbered: Hoi Stan! All that is needed to take Skype down is an automatic windows update of some thousand computers. Remember last summer? http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20070819 hey Venty, long time no see :) if you remember, back in 2003-2004 there were viruses which knocked down hundreds of thousands of windows PCs. So what, we're still using that :) Well, I'm typing on a Mac at the office, using SSH to connect to a NetBSD box at home. =:-) My last Windows installation is a Windows 2000, which is slowly falling apart. If the tool serves my needs, I don't really care if it's open source - I'm not going to compile anything on my desktop anyway. And if it collects any marketing stats, so what, everyone is doing that, and we're helping them (Coop Supercard for example). There's nothing bad about companies knowing better what I might buy from them :-) Well, yes, if it serves the purpose, sure. Though if the company/product has a bad reputation in terms of security and spying on the user, I do think twice about using it. Skype is one of these companies/products actually. As said before, I use Skype at most with the PSPs built-in client which can do phone calls and thats it. I'm not much online there though. CU, Venty -- What we're planning here is World Domination! ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?)
Salut, Marco, On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:47:41 +0200, Marco Fretz wrote: I usually don't have a look at the code at all. But point is, it's code, tested and build by a community not a closed company with their own, secret business goals...! I don't want be a victim of global marketing data collection and stuff like that... Maybe you noticed already, maybe not, but in reality, Open Source communities tend to care a lot about marketing. This is why they try to disguise security patches as performance enhancement - oh wait, that was Apple. But indeed such things happen, in large amounts, even in the Open Source world. Tonnerre signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions (was: Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?))
Salut, Per, On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:01:24 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: fixing something yourself is also pretty much an illusion, except for those few people who are sufficiently involved. When have you last _had_ to fix anything yourself in a stable release of any open source project? Being a member of the security scene, I write patches for Open Source software almost every day. And what about you? Tonnerre signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing
Hello, Stanislav Sinyagin wrote: any ideas what else could be an interesting project? Or probably you have a real project in mind? What about : - a device that would be installed in cars , - to build a mesh wifi 2.45GHz between cars, - and a 5.4GHz to some external relays when available, - to allow for transmission between cars of : . fast alarm (strong acceleration/deccelaration) ; . relative positionning ; . voip diffusion to close cars ; . engine technical parameters (for maintenance) ; - and dynamic internet relaying to closer external relays ; - available with open source (Linux+bsd). ? Best regards, -- __Bernard DUGAS _ | IS Production s.a. Innovative Solutions Production | | Technoparc Pays de Gex [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | 30 Rue Auguste Piccard Mob.: +33 615 333 770 | | 01630 St Genis Pouilly - FRANCE -Fax : +33 450 205 106 | |_| ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
Salut, king of the huns, On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:40:13 +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Anyone who has ever written more than a few lines of C code knows that gcc is crap... unfortunately, it's the best compiler out there. The comercial compilers usualy segfault at every second file of my favorite compiler testbench, commonly known as FFmpeg. Well, at least Intel did a good job of fixing most of their bugs, but it took them years. How long it will take sun to fix their compiler, which is even worse is anyones guess. WFM with SUNWcc on sol10u5. Tonnerre signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
I can't resist. ...if it collects any marketing stats, so what, everyone is doing that... Only from the unknowledgeable that don't control Javascript (NoScript), flash (etc.), cookies or 'stuff'. Therefore, you have skewed stats. ...There's nothing bad about companies knowing better what I might buy from them... Yes, there is. scott --- ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions
Marc Balmer wrote: actually indent(1), a program to indent and format C program source bears a copyright from 1976: * Copyright (c) 1976 Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. 32 years. And still useful. And this is the oldest copyright I could find in an operating system (OpenBSD) that still ships today. You probably don't have the access anywhere, but try looking at IBMs TPF and you'll find stuff dating back to the early sixties. Surprisingly, TPF has always been open source - for license holders. /Per Jessen, Herrliberg ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing
On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 04:50:34AM -0700, Stanislav Sinyagin wrote: My first mini-project is to build a small Wifi (or even Bluetooth?) hotspot (only for home use, of course) which would take its Internet feed from one of those mobile USB GPS modems that you get for few francs a month from Swisscom or Sunrise. It is quite easy to do with the WL-500g WiFi access point, which has the advantage of a) being compatible with standard systems (e.g. DD-WRT GNU/Linux) b) having an USB port you can plug the Swisscom Unlimited dongle inside (the one which pretends to be a CD-ROM, uh, a tty) I think it costs about 120.-. I have done it, and it works (routing the Swisscom Unlimited net to the internal switch, not the WiFi, in my case) PS: the discussion on OSS gets annoying. Use whatever tool you find appropriate, as long as you can fix it when required. ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing
Marc, the goal is not to build it from commodity parts, but to learn how to build such systems in general :) From scratch, starting with custom kernel build, then tailored busybox, then web management and stuff... that's what I call open source: working with the source :-) - Original Message From: Marc SCHAEFER [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 6:56:06 PM Subject: Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 04:50:34AM -0700, Stanislav Sinyagin wrote: My first mini-project is to build a small Wifi (or even Bluetooth?) hotspot (only for home use, of course) which would take its Internet feed from one of those mobile USB GPS modems that you get for few francs a month from Swisscom or Sunrise. It is quite easy to do with the WL-500g WiFi access point, which has the advantage of a) being compatible with standard systems (e.g. DD-WRT GNU/Linux) b) having an USB port you can plug the Swisscom Unlimited dongle inside (the one which pretends to be a CD-ROM, uh, a tty) I think it costs about 120.-. I have done it, and it works (routing the Swisscom Unlimited net to the internal switch, not the WiFi, in my case) PS: the discussion on OSS gets annoying. Use whatever tool you find appropriate, as long as you can fix it when required. ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Embedded Linux practicing
On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 11:44:42AM -0700, Stanislav Sinyagin wrote: Marc, the goal is not to build it from commodity parts, but to learn how to build such systems in general :) From scratch, starting with custom kernel build, then tailored busybox, then web management and stuff... You are talking software here. So, do it yourself. Start by recompiling DD-WRT and download the firmware, see if it works. Then you can do it even more low-level. You can even choose how much low-level you want to be, while still remaining software-oriented. Another approach could be a hardware approach: taking an Ethernut (http://www.ethernut.de/), add-on a USB child card, and develop the drivers for the interface. That will be very teachy! that's what I call open source: working with the source :-) You are right. ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
got to nazgul and it worked the first second, opened an second irc client tried subcult .. timeout Roger Am 7 Oct 2008 um 12:59 hat Boris Meyer geschrieben: 12:54 -!- Irssi: Connecting to irc.subcult.ch [213.180.174.250] port 6667 12:54 -!- Irssi: Connection to irc.subcult.ch established 12:54 !irc.subcult.ch *** Looking up your hostname... 12:54 !irc.subcult.ch *** Checking Ident 12:54 !irc.subcult.ch *** No Ident response 12:54 !irc.subcult.ch *** Found your hostname 12:54 -!- Welcome to the SubCultNET Internet Relay Chat Network boris etc etc... Don't see your problem. Maybe some client issues? Anyway, there are 4 possible servers, just check http://irc.subcult.ch Regards, Boris [Tue.06:07] -irc.subcult.ch- *** Checking Ident - [Tue.06:07] -irc.subcult.ch- *** Found your hostname and thats it .. stays there .. after 4 minutes the client disc. and retry to connect. will be shure in 30 minutes everything will be fine again so i really would be happy when irc.swinog.ch is back on the net, there i never experienced that Roger Am 7 Oct 2008 um 1:27 hat Scott Weeks geschrieben: I can't resist. ...if it collects any marketing stats, so what, everyone is doing that... Only from the unknowledgeable that don't control Javascript (NoScript), flash (etc.), cookies or 'stuff'. Therefore, you have skewed stats. ...There's nothing bad about companies knowing better what I might buy from them... Yes, there is. scott --- ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?)
Am 7.10.2008 8:47 Uhr, Marco Fretz schrieb: That's not the point. Of course we don't check the whole source code. I usually don't have a look at the code at all. But point is, it's code, tested and build by a community not a closed company with their own, secret business goals...! I don't want be a victim of global marketing data collection and stuff like that... One of the big reasons why people are buying commercial software products is, that they can get support and SLA. Most of the open source projects cannot provide that. 99% people don't check the code and don't write the patches. So, where is the difference? There is none. What really matters is, that the interfaces (file format, protocol, hardware documention) are open an can be accesses by anyone. Ihsan -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.dogan.ch/ ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?
Am 7.10.2008 9:32 Uhr, Marco Fretz schrieb: Skype is like MSN Messenger, just another ugly overloaded communication tool. if I have to choose between skype and MSN, it's MSN, because there are a lot of opensource and freeware alternatives to the bad Live Messenger from Microschrott, ah Microsoft... :-) Well, it might be ugly, but at least it works in almost every situation. Ihsan -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.dogan.ch/ ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
[swinog] Migros and coop privacy violence
On the Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 12:26:37AM -0700, Stanislav Sinyagin blubbered: Hi. going to compile anything on my desktop anyway. And if it collects any marketing stats, so what, everyone is doing that, and we're helping them (Coop Supercard for example). There's nothing bad about companies knowing better what I might buy from them :-) well would be not surprised when in a DB scan they recognizing you as single buying so much .. they think your making business with it, and noticing the tax department. or like a neighbour .. he got sued to throw liter in ilegal bags .. because they verifyed the list of items he was buying .. found a receipt with his name .. and they got him .. but as the letter arrived he was just back from holiday, and all the items where still in his house but they didnt accept that Well... Actually, the Supercard (and the Cumulus as well) are quite easy to exploit and throw a monkey wrench up Coops and Migros database. I have both cards but I share them with my parents. That is one thing, one can do, share the card. Then, I don't have the card with me all of the time. (In fact I do have them with me, but oh well...). In that case, if the grandma before or after me has a card, I just ask her if she wants my Cumulus points on her account. Sure they do, classical win-win situation. She is happy, Migros database is confused (what does the 90 year old lady buys beer, CD-Rs and condoms for?) and the clerk won't mind anyway. This also works the other way. If someone at the checkout does not have a card, why not ask them, if you can have their points on your account? Just ask nicely, most people without a card won't mind. Another win-win situation here. For your listening pleasure, download the Privacy song: http://three-dead-trolls-in-a-baggie-the-privac-mp3-download.kohit.net/_/61880 CU, Venty -- What we're planning here is World Domination! ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
[swinog] Migros and coop privacy violence
On the Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 12:26:37AM -0700, Stanislav Sinyagin blubbered: Hi. going to compile anything on my desktop anyway. And if it collects any marketing stats, so what, everyone is doing that, and we're helping them (Coop Supercard for example). There's nothing bad about companies knowing better what I might buy from them :-) well would be not surprised when in a DB scan they recognizing you as single buying so much .. they think your making business with it, and noticing the tax department. or like a neighbour .. he got sued to throw liter in ilegal bags .. because they verifyed the list of items he was buying .. found a receipt with his name .. and they got him .. but as the letter arrived he was just back from holiday, and all the items where still in his house but they didnt accept that Well... Actually, the Supercard (and the Cumulus as well) are quite easy to exploit and throw a monkey wrench up Coops and Migros database. I have both cards but I share them with my parents. That is one thing, one can do, share the card. Then, I don't have the card with me all of the time. (In fact I do have them with me, but oh well...). In that case, if the grandma before or after me has a card, I just ask her if she wants my Cumulus points on her account. Sure they do, classical win-win situation. She is happy, Migros database is confused (what does the 90 year old lady buys beer, CD-Rs and condoms for?) and the clerk won't mind anyway. This also works the other way. If someone at the checkout does not have a card, why not ask them, if you can have their points on your account? Just ask nicely, most people without a card won't mind. Another win-win situation here. For your listening pleasure, download the Privacy song: http://three-dead-trolls-in-a-baggie-the-privac-mp3-download.kohit.net/_/61880 CU, Venty -- What we're planning here is World Domination! ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog --- Ende der weitergeleiteten Nachricht / End of forwarded message --- WPM$3937.PM$ Description: Nachrichtentext ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
[swinog] open source patch to coop and migros
I'm very much involved in the scene of goumoens-la-ville (doing theatre) and I must admit I don't write enough patches.The first real pride of mine in this area was fixing, well, not really, almost beeing able to fix a bug in... the linux kernel (waouw, tremendous!). it was about a kernel lockup when booting on some hardware. I've spent one night a one day investing, adding printk, recompiling, rebooting, pressing the reset button. it was in the keyboard driver (rocket science, the keyboard driver). Almost came with a patch (after some guidance from some genuinely nice folks on the LK mailing-list) to notice that when connecting both the mouse and the keyboard, not just the keyboard, the problem was solved (ohhh shit almost became famous). I threw away my patch, plugged the mouse, swallowed my pride, and, well, life is not too bad like this either. ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?)
Hey, Ihsan, On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:53:28 +0200, Ihsan Dogan wrote: One of the big reasons why people are buying commercial software products is, that they can get support and SLA. Most of the open source projects cannot provide that. Not by themselves, but you can get that support through other means, either from a distributor like Red Hat or Univention or from a solutions provider like us. Tonnerre signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] open source illusions (was: Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?))
* on the Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 02:01:24PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote: fixing something yourself is also pretty much an illusion, except for those few people who are sufficiently involved. When have you last _had_ to fix anything yourself in a stable release of any open source project? We've found bugs in just about everything we use. FreeBSD kernel, libc, apache-modules, pdns, nfs, and so on. And we fix them if we have the source. We're not involved in any of those projects. Cheers Seegras -- Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin It's also true that those who would give up privacy for security are likely to end up with neither. -- Bruce Schneier ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
Re: [swinog] Hot Red Flames (Was: IRC Server dead ?)
* on the Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 06:50:54PM +0200, Jeroen Massar wrote: I've done too much cmputer security, and now I've got a déformation professionelle. I won't use closed software for anything crucial like communication; You don't use Cisco's or Junipers? How do you use the Internet actually? It's a very different matter if a client is wired to use some specific server of some company to initiate communication, and uses a closed protocol too. For all I know this is like re-routing my communication trough skypes servers so they can wiretap it. Cheers Seegras -- Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin It's also true that those who would give up privacy for security are likely to end up with neither. -- Bruce Schneier ___ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
