Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 9:41 AM Luca Boccassi wrote: > > On Fri, 2022-04-08 at 00:48 +0200, Jason A. Donenfeld wrote: > > Hi Wol, > > > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 12:02 AM Wol wrote: > > > > > > On 07/04/2022 17:47, Mike Gilbert wrote: > > > > > So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged-/usr are also > > > > > the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are > > > > > talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff > > > > > anyway, so why bother? > > > > > > There's probably also a big minority of users (like me) who may be > > > pro-systemd, but run a systemd-hostile distro for reasons that are > > > nothing to do with systemd ... > > > > > > > There's probably a large overlap between users who don't like systemd > > > > and users who don't like merged-/usr. I would guess we don't have a > > > > critical mass of users/developers running systemd. > > > > > > > > I could probably force the users who do run systemd to migrate to > > > > merged-/usr, but I don't really see much benefit from that if all > > > > other packages in Gentoo still need to support both configurations. > > > > > > And I'm sorry if I upset Mike, but I class gentoo as systemd-hostile. > > > It's MUCH easier to install/run Gentoo with OpenRC, systemd isn't that > > > well documented (it's better than it was). There are people who support > > > systemd, but I get the impression it's seen as an unwanted rival to > > > OpenRC. > > > > I was actually just talking about merged usr with some people in > > #gentoo-dev the other day. I was at first wondering, "hey have we done > > this? what's the hold up?" And the answer seemed to be that nobody has > > really got around to it, and there's not currently a huge champion of > > the project moving it forward. Somebody piped up kind of mildly > > opposed, and then I explained what the general vision for merged usr > > is (hermetic OS in /usr and such), and felt like the reception to that > > was actually somewhat welcoming. Later I posted a link to Lennart's > > latest blog post, and people seemed to think it was cool. Somebody > > mentioned they were going to try out merged usr on Gentoo to see what > > happened, and another person mentioned they were the author of a blog > > post tutorial on how to do it. > > > > A few conversations over the course of the day in an IRC channel isn't > > necessarily representative of the whole project, but the impression I > > got was way less so about hostility and more so just that nobody has > > gotten around to doing the work and tracking whatever bugs come out of > > it that need to be fixed. It's been started, but seems to have > > fizzled. Maybe the recent discussion here and funny happenings over in > > Debian will inject some life into it. So maybe we'll wind up with > > merged usr after all. No promises, but I think it's much more a matter > > of "when" than "if". > > > > (My personal 2¢ is that I'd be happy to see systemd help corral us > > stragglers into merged usr, and in the process, drop some complexity > > of its own for supporting unmerged usr.) > > > > Jason > > Any update on this topic? The changes to move to usr-merged have been > merged for OpenMandriva 5.0: > https://github.com/OpenMandrivaAssociation/distribution/issues/2792 > > This means Gentoo is the last holdout where this isn't possible, even > just optionally. Is it possible to find a Gentoo developer who would > like to take this on? It doesn't have to be universal, having it merged > only for installations running systemd would be perfectly fine. As > mentioned in the thread, the scripts to move an installation forward > and back exist and should be pretty generalistic, and require some > adaptations but no major overhaul. I'll work on a migration path for Gentoo systems running systemd. I think we could get it done before the end of the year.
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On Fri, 2022-04-08 at 00:48 +0200, Jason A. Donenfeld wrote: > Hi Wol, > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 12:02 AM Wol wrote: > > > > On 07/04/2022 17:47, Mike Gilbert wrote: > > > > So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged-/usr are also > > > > the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are > > > > talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff > > > > anyway, so why bother? > > > > There's probably also a big minority of users (like me) who may be > > pro-systemd, but run a systemd-hostile distro for reasons that are > > nothing to do with systemd ... > > > > > There's probably a large overlap between users who don't like systemd > > > and users who don't like merged-/usr. I would guess we don't have a > > > critical mass of users/developers running systemd. > > > > > > I could probably force the users who do run systemd to migrate to > > > merged-/usr, but I don't really see much benefit from that if all > > > other packages in Gentoo still need to support both configurations. > > > > And I'm sorry if I upset Mike, but I class gentoo as systemd-hostile. > > It's MUCH easier to install/run Gentoo with OpenRC, systemd isn't that > > well documented (it's better than it was). There are people who support > > systemd, but I get the impression it's seen as an unwanted rival to OpenRC. > > I was actually just talking about merged usr with some people in > #gentoo-dev the other day. I was at first wondering, "hey have we done > this? what's the hold up?" And the answer seemed to be that nobody has > really got around to it, and there's not currently a huge champion of > the project moving it forward. Somebody piped up kind of mildly > opposed, and then I explained what the general vision for merged usr > is (hermetic OS in /usr and such), and felt like the reception to that > was actually somewhat welcoming. Later I posted a link to Lennart's > latest blog post, and people seemed to think it was cool. Somebody > mentioned they were going to try out merged usr on Gentoo to see what > happened, and another person mentioned they were the author of a blog > post tutorial on how to do it. > > A few conversations over the course of the day in an IRC channel isn't > necessarily representative of the whole project, but the impression I > got was way less so about hostility and more so just that nobody has > gotten around to doing the work and tracking whatever bugs come out of > it that need to be fixed. It's been started, but seems to have > fizzled. Maybe the recent discussion here and funny happenings over in > Debian will inject some life into it. So maybe we'll wind up with > merged usr after all. No promises, but I think it's much more a matter > of "when" than "if". > > (My personal 2¢ is that I'd be happy to see systemd help corral us > stragglers into merged usr, and in the process, drop some complexity > of its own for supporting unmerged usr.) > > Jason Any update on this topic? The changes to move to usr-merged have been merged for OpenMandriva 5.0: https://github.com/OpenMandrivaAssociation/distribution/issues/2792 This means Gentoo is the last holdout where this isn't possible, even just optionally. Is it possible to find a Gentoo developer who would like to take this on? It doesn't have to be universal, having it merged only for installations running systemd would be perfectly fine. As mentioned in the thread, the scripts to move an installation forward and back exist and should be pretty generalistic, and require some adaptations but no major overhaul. We'd like to chart a path toward full deprecation at some point in the future, but we want to make sure that everything that can be done is done to help all the major distributions move forward as well. -- Kind regards, Luca Boccassi signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [systemd-devel] Antw: [EXT] Re: [systemd‑devel] Dropping split‑usr/unmerged‑usr support
On Fr, 08.04.22 10:11, Ulrich Windl (ulrich.wi...@rz.uni-regensburg.de) wrote: > > So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged‑/usr are also > > the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are > > talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff > > anyway, so why bother? > > Maybe explain why systemd required /usr to be part of the root filesystem > instead. We do not require that. What we do require is that /usr/ is mounted during the initrd → host transition. > Maybe also explain the chicken-egg race with temporary directories that > systemd added. Hm? > Maybe just add a manual page systemd-filesystem-concepts ;-) https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/file-hierarchy.html Lennart -- Lennart Poettering, Berlin
[systemd-devel] Antw: [EXT] Re: [systemd‑devel] Dropping split‑usr/unmerged‑usr support
>>> Lennart Poettering schrieb am 07.04.2022 um 10:59 in Nachricht : > On Mi, 06.04.22 11:24, Mike Gilbert (flop...@gentoo.org) wrote: > >> We are not likely to require merging of / and /usr for the foreseeable >> future. We are a "rolling release" distro and basically never require >> our users to re‑install, which makes large file system migrations >> difficult. Also, many of our users would resist any attempt to force >> merged‑/usr on them. > > So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged‑/usr are also > the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are > talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff > anyway, so why bother? Maybe explain why systemd required /usr to be part of the root filesystem instead. Maybe also explain the chicken-egg race with temporary directories that systemd added. > >> I think it would be ok if systemd drops support for installing itself >> in /lib/systemd; we would just move everything under /usr/lib/systemd, >> and possibly set up some symlinks in /lib/systemd for the >> transition. > > You guys are making your life hell, because you are afraid if making > it difficult... Maybe just add a manual page systemd-filesystem-concepts ;-) Regards, Ulrich Windl > > Lennart > > ‑‑ > Lennart Poettering, Berlin
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On 07/04/2022 23:48, Jason A. Donenfeld wrote: A few conversations over the course of the day in an IRC channel isn't necessarily representative of the whole project, but the impression I got was way less so about hostility and more so just that nobody has gotten around to doing the work and tracking whatever bugs come out of it that need to be fixed. It's been started, but seems to have fizzled. Maybe the recent discussion here and funny happenings over in Debian will inject some life into it. So maybe we'll wind up with merged usr after all. No promises, but I think it's much more a matter of "when" than "if". (My personal 2¢ is that I'd be happy to see systemd help corral us stragglers into merged usr, and in the process, drop some complexity of its own for supporting unmerged usr.) I don't really have a horse in that race, I'm just left with the strong feeling that there are people who are strongly anti-systemd, and there are people who are pro-systemd, but what's important is THEY RESPECT EACH OTHER. It's just that the anti-systemd guys are in the majority, and it shows. (Funtoo left me with a very nasty taste, best described as "you always see in others, your own worst faults" :-( Cheers, Wol
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
Hi Wol, On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 12:02 AM Wol wrote: > > On 07/04/2022 17:47, Mike Gilbert wrote: > >> So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged-/usr are also > >> the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are > >> talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff > >> anyway, so why bother? > > There's probably also a big minority of users (like me) who may be > pro-systemd, but run a systemd-hostile distro for reasons that are > nothing to do with systemd ... > > > There's probably a large overlap between users who don't like systemd > > and users who don't like merged-/usr. I would guess we don't have a > > critical mass of users/developers running systemd. > > > > I could probably force the users who do run systemd to migrate to > > merged-/usr, but I don't really see much benefit from that if all > > other packages in Gentoo still need to support both configurations. > > And I'm sorry if I upset Mike, but I class gentoo as systemd-hostile. > It's MUCH easier to install/run Gentoo with OpenRC, systemd isn't that > well documented (it's better than it was). There are people who support > systemd, but I get the impression it's seen as an unwanted rival to OpenRC. I was actually just talking about merged usr with some people in #gentoo-dev the other day. I was at first wondering, "hey have we done this? what's the hold up?" And the answer seemed to be that nobody has really got around to it, and there's not currently a huge champion of the project moving it forward. Somebody piped up kind of mildly opposed, and then I explained what the general vision for merged usr is (hermetic OS in /usr and such), and felt like the reception to that was actually somewhat welcoming. Later I posted a link to Lennart's latest blog post, and people seemed to think it was cool. Somebody mentioned they were going to try out merged usr on Gentoo to see what happened, and another person mentioned they were the author of a blog post tutorial on how to do it. A few conversations over the course of the day in an IRC channel isn't necessarily representative of the whole project, but the impression I got was way less so about hostility and more so just that nobody has gotten around to doing the work and tracking whatever bugs come out of it that need to be fixed. It's been started, but seems to have fizzled. Maybe the recent discussion here and funny happenings over in Debian will inject some life into it. So maybe we'll wind up with merged usr after all. No promises, but I think it's much more a matter of "when" than "if". (My personal 2¢ is that I'd be happy to see systemd help corral us stragglers into merged usr, and in the process, drop some complexity of its own for supporting unmerged usr.) Jason
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On 07/04/2022 17:47, Mike Gilbert wrote: So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged-/usr are also the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff anyway, so why bother? There's probably also a big minority of users (like me) who may be pro-systemd, but run a systemd-hostile distro for reasons that are nothing to do with systemd ... There's probably a large overlap between users who don't like systemd and users who don't like merged-/usr. I would guess we don't have a critical mass of users/developers running systemd. I could probably force the users who do run systemd to migrate to merged-/usr, but I don't really see much benefit from that if all other packages in Gentoo still need to support both configurations. And I'm sorry if I upset Mike, but I class gentoo as systemd-hostile. It's MUCH easier to install/run Gentoo with OpenRC, systemd isn't that well documented (it's better than it was). There are people who support systemd, but I get the impression it's seen as an unwanted rival to OpenRC. But there's not much choice out there for systemd-friendly source-based distros. Funtoo is openly anti-systemd. Sourceror (which I plan to play with) seems not to be that successful - looks like there are few users beyond the core developers ... and that feels like it's one of the better ones ... Cheers, Wol
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 5:18 AM Luca Boccassi wrote: > > On Thu, 2022-04-07 at 10:59 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > On Mi, 06.04.22 11:24, Mike Gilbert (flop...@gentoo.org) wrote: > > > > > We are not likely to require merging of / and /usr for the foreseeable > > > future. We are a "rolling release" distro and basically never require > > > our users to re-install, which makes large file system migrations > > > difficult. Also, many of our users would resist any attempt to force > > > merged-/usr on them. > > > > So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged-/usr are also > > the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are > > talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff > > anyway, so why bother? > > > > > I think it would be ok if systemd drops support for installing itself > > > in /lib/systemd; we would just move everything under /usr/lib/systemd, > > > and possibly set up some symlinks in /lib/systemd for the > > > transition. > > > > You guys are making your life hell, because you are afraid if making > > it difficult... > > > > Lennart > > And regarding re-installing, Ubuntu and Debian are doing the transition > on the live filesystem, no reinstall required (I think other distros > did the same). You can find the script that does it in this repository: > https://salsa.debian.org/md/usrmerge apart from details about multi- > arch lib directories, it should be adaptable to other distributions. Thanks for the link!
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:59 AM Lennart Poettering wrote: > > On Mi, 06.04.22 11:24, Mike Gilbert (flop...@gentoo.org) wrote: > > > We are not likely to require merging of / and /usr for the foreseeable > > future. We are a "rolling release" distro and basically never require > > our users to re-install, which makes large file system migrations > > difficult. Also, many of our users would resist any attempt to force > > merged-/usr on them. > > So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged-/usr are also > the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are > talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff > anyway, so why bother? There's probably a large overlap between users who don't like systemd and users who don't like merged-/usr. I would guess we don't have a critical mass of users/developers running systemd. I could probably force the users who do run systemd to migrate to merged-/usr, but I don't really see much benefit from that if all other packages in Gentoo still need to support both configurations.
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On Thu, 2022-04-07 at 10:59 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: > On Mi, 06.04.22 11:24, Mike Gilbert (flop...@gentoo.org) wrote: > > > We are not likely to require merging of / and /usr for the foreseeable > > future. We are a "rolling release" distro and basically never require > > our users to re-install, which makes large file system migrations > > difficult. Also, many of our users would resist any attempt to force > > merged-/usr on them. > > So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged-/usr are also > the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are > talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff > anyway, so why bother? > > > I think it would be ok if systemd drops support for installing itself > > in /lib/systemd; we would just move everything under /usr/lib/systemd, > > and possibly set up some symlinks in /lib/systemd for the > > transition. > > You guys are making your life hell, because you are afraid if making > it difficult... > > Lennart And regarding re-installing, Ubuntu and Debian are doing the transition on the live filesystem, no reinstall required (I think other distros did the same). You can find the script that does it in this repository: https://salsa.debian.org/md/usrmerge apart from details about multi- arch lib directories, it should be adaptable to other distributions. -- Kind regards, Luca Boccassi signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On Mi, 06.04.22 11:24, Mike Gilbert (flop...@gentoo.org) wrote: > We are not likely to require merging of / and /usr for the foreseeable > future. We are a "rolling release" distro and basically never require > our users to re-install, which makes large file system migrations > difficult. Also, many of our users would resist any attempt to force > merged-/usr on them. So, my guess would be that the people who dislike merged-/usr are also the ones who dislike systemd, no? i.e. do they really matter if we are talking about what to support in systemd? They'd not use our stuff anyway, so why bother? > I think it would be ok if systemd drops support for installing itself > in /lib/systemd; we would just move everything under /usr/lib/systemd, > and possibly set up some symlinks in /lib/systemd for the > transition. You guys are making your life hell, because you are afraid if making it difficult... Lennart -- Lennart Poettering, Berlin
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 4:07 PM Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> As part of our spring cleaning effort, we are considering when to drop
> support for split/unmerged-usr filesystem layouts.
>
> A build-time warning was added last year:
>
> https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/9afd5e7b975e8051c011ff9c07c95e80bd954469
>
> We are now adding a runtime taint as well.
>
> Which distributions are left running with systemd on a split/unmerged-
> usr system?
Gentoo still supports having /{bin,sbin,lib} and /usr/{bin,sbin,lib}
as separate directories. We do not support officially booting without
/usr mounted (via initramfs), but some users do it anyway.
We are not likely to require merging of / and /usr for the foreseeable
future. We are a "rolling release" distro and basically never require
our users to re-install, which makes large file system migrations
difficult. Also, many of our users would resist any attempt to force
merged-/usr on them.
I think it would be ok if systemd drops support for installing itself
in /lib/systemd; we would just move everything under /usr/lib/systemd,
and possibly set up some symlinks in /lib/systemd for the transition.
We will still need to keep /bin and /sbin in PATH, and we can't assume
that all binaries reside in /usr/bin.
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
On 4/5/2022 1:07 PM, Luca Boccassi wrote: As part of our spring cleaning effort, we are considering when to drop support for split/unmerged-usr filesystem layouts. For others like me who don't know this term. (I'd seen and appreciate the concept but didn't know what people called it.) https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/
Re: [systemd-devel] Dropping split-usr/unmerged-usr support
Am Di., 5. Apr. 2022 um 22:07 Uhr schrieb Luca Boccassi : > > Hi, > > As part of our spring cleaning effort, we are considering when to drop > support for split/unmerged-usr filesystem layouts. > > A build-time warning was added last year: > > https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commit/9afd5e7b975e8051c011ff9c07c95e80bd954469 > > We are now adding a runtime taint as well. > > Which distributions are left running with systemd on a split/unmerged- > usr system? cough, I guess you know at least one :-)
