Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport
How 'bout it's killing the sport. Dan Kaplan wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If lots of people decide to rob banks and don't see anything wrong with it, and the police can't keep up, does that mean that bank robbery should be made legal? Robbing banks has a clearly defined ill effect on society. That's yet to be demonstrated very convincingly with regards to performance enhancing drugs. Next. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport
Drugs are killing the sport and what is driving drugs is money. Are they related? Maybe there is a place for expressed amateur sports? Such is the NCAA. Tom - Original Message - From: lehane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:31 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport How 'bout it's killing the sport. Dan Kaplan wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If lots of people decide to rob banks and don't see anything wrong with it, and the police can't keep up, does that mean that bank robbery should be made legal? Robbing banks has a clearly defined ill effect on society. That's yet to be demonstrated very convincingly with regards to performance enhancing drugs. Next. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: major philosophy difference for the sport
How about the opposite argument. If it were not for drugs, WR progression would have stalled some time ago and the public would have lost all interest. As a fan I want to be entertained. I'm more entertained by a 26:30 than a 27:30. If someone runs a 9.5 someday I'll be damn entertained no matter what he's on. I want to see a LJ competition with a few guys over 30 feet some day. I want to see a 3:40 mile. Will I see these with natural athletes. My opinion is no. Paul PS (If anyone wants to change this to a discussion of human limits, change the subject heading) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of lehane Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:31 AM To: Dan Kaplan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport How 'bout it's killing the sport. Dan Kaplan wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If lots of people decide to rob banks and don't see anything wrong with it, and the police can't keep up, does that mean that bank robbery should be made legal? Robbing banks has a clearly defined ill effect on society. That's yet to be demonstrated very convincingly with regards to performance enhancing drugs. Next. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport
There's no way to know if robbing banks is any worse for society than performance-enhancing drugs, which may be far worse. (Or they may be incomparable.) There is probably no turning back from p-e drugs now that they're here. Perhaps the problem is no longer a problem (meaning something that can possibly be solved or fixed) buthas become a fact that can at best be coped with. This is not to condone recreational use of drugs in elite sport. I know my personal reaction is rejection--I wouldn't have used them when I was competing, even if I could have improved (it wouldn't have been an improvement worth having) my admittedly mediocre performance, and I wish everyone else felt the same way. But that's an awfully naive expression. When I think about where the line is crossed, it gets very confusing to me... meaning, for example, that my eating a very legitimate carbohydrate before a race may help me run faster than eating a steak before that race because each changes my body differently--and both are legitimate--but which other kinds of changes are legitimate, which ones aren't, and under what conditions does the legitimate set of conditions cross over to become illegitimate? Maybe it's not a continuum. I'm not sure that the question can be answered when phrased that way, but I'd sure like it to be answerable that way! How do others who care passionately see it? I would love the benefit of more sophisticated thinking than my own. Thanks. Mitch
RE: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport
H. We're not so naïve as to suggest that the NCAA is drug-free? How about some of the foreign athletes who have matriculated (are matriculating) and their track records without even starting on our citizen participants? Otherwise, what is the purpose for NCAA drug testing. Hopefully to try and deter the athlete, alas, we also know how difficult it is to catch the culprits! It's a filter down system. May I be so bold as to suggest the high schools are even caught up in this whole chase your tail game. We're in a pill-popping, needle-sticking culture and time. Wes Cook, George Fox University -Original Message- From: Tom Derderian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:43 AM To: lehane; Dan Kaplan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport Drugs are killing the sport and what is driving drugs is money. Are they related? Maybe there is a place for expressed amateur sports? Such is the NCAA. Tom - Original Message - From: lehane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:31 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport How 'bout it's killing the sport. Dan Kaplan wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If lots of people decide to rob banks and don't see anything wrong with it, and the police can't keep up, does that mean that bank robbery should be made legal? Robbing banks has a clearly defined ill effect on society. That's yet to be demonstrated very convincingly with regards to performance enhancing drugs. Next. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
t-and-f: IAAF on White
IAAF general secretary Istvan Gyulai said White should be disqualified and stripped of the gold medals she won in the 100 and 200 metres at last month's World Championships. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/world_athletics_2003/3077070.stm
Re: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport
Not so naive but do see a relationship between money and drugs. The more money, the more drugs. Certainly there is money involved in the NCAA but not as much as with athletes who have agents and sponsorship contracts. There is even less drug use in clubs such as the Greater Boston Track Club that I coach where the athletes have jobs or are students and the club gets only a small amount on sponsorship money. Mostly the members support the club. Yes, it would be naive to think their never has been drug use or would be but it surely is proportionately less. So one response, not a solution, to the drug problem would be to strictly define the levels of money influence or professionalism. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Wes Cook [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lehane [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:53 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport H. We're not so naïve as to suggest that the NCAA is drug-free? How about some of the foreign athletes who have matriculated (are matriculating) and their track records without even starting on our citizen participants? Otherwise, what is the purpose for NCAA drug testing. Hopefully to try and deter the athlete, alas, we also know how difficult it is to catch the culprits! It's a filter down system. May I be so bold as to suggest the high schools are even caught up in this whole chase your tail game. We're in a pill-popping, needle-sticking culture and time. Wes Cook, George Fox University -Original Message- From: Tom Derderian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:43 AM To: lehane; Dan Kaplan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport Drugs are killing the sport and what is driving drugs is money. Are they related? Maybe there is a place for expressed amateur sports? Such is the NCAA. Tom - Original Message - From: lehane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:31 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport How 'bout it's killing the sport. Dan Kaplan wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If lots of people decide to rob banks and don't see anything wrong with it, and the police can't keep up, does that mean that bank robbery should be made legal? Robbing banks has a clearly defined ill effect on society. That's yet to be demonstrated very convincingly with regards to performance enhancing drugs. Next. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
RE: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosophy difference for the sport
The high school kids in the U.S. have been on drugs for a long time: http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2000/1213/945303.html The steroid-use rate is 5-8% of ALL high school boys. I would bet that most of the use is done by athletes so put it over 10%. Probably concentrated in football, but a whole lot of HS footballers compete in track and field. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Wes Cook Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:54 AM To: Tom Derderian; lehane; Dan Kaplan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport H. We're not so naïve as to suggest that the NCAA is drug-free? How about some of the foreign athletes who have matriculated (are matriculating) and their track records without even starting on our citizen participants? Otherwise, what is the purpose for NCAA drug testing. Hopefully to try and deter the athlete, alas, we also know how difficult it is to catch the culprits! It's a filter down system. May I be so bold as to suggest the high schools are even caught up in this whole chase your tail game. We're in a pill-popping, needle-sticking culture and time. Wes Cook, George Fox University -Original Message- From: Tom Derderian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:43 AM To: lehane; Dan Kaplan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport Drugs are killing the sport and what is driving drugs is money. Are they related? Maybe there is a place for expressed amateur sports? Such is the NCAA. Tom - Original Message - From: lehane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:31 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport How 'bout it's killing the sport. Dan Kaplan wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If lots of people decide to rob banks and don't see anything wrong with it, and the police can't keep up, does that mean that bank robbery should be made legal? Robbing banks has a clearly defined ill effect on society. That's yet to be demonstrated very convincingly with regards to performance enhancing drugs. Next. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport
--- Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So one response, not a solution, to the drug problem would be to strictly define the levels of money influence or professionalism. Maybe no one caught it in my response to Randy, but I don't believe that approach will be any improvement. Setting a salary scale doesn't change the fact that people will be jockeying for positition just to make the cut, so there will always be incentive to do whatever's necessary to improve. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Another Kenyan Positive !!!!
At 10:35 AM 9/9/2003 -0700, t-and-f-digest wrote.. Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 17:04:17 + From: B. Kunnath [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Another Kenyan Positive ! I dont think it was ever stated that it was IMPOSSIBLE for the Kenyans to cheat. What is a more accurate statement would be to say that it was felt, (and still is by some of us) that it is largely against their character to cheat. I have argued that it's economically infeasible for young Kenyan runners to cheat effectively due to income limitations. No one has demonstrated otherwise. While elite Kenyans might be cheating, the younger athletes who have not yet left the country and been able to earn money from running demonstrate extraordinary performances that are better than current US athletes. It reminds me a bit of negative campaigning ( to use a political phrase). If we can show that the Kenyans are cheating, that would explain why the US is doing so badly, because we have no cheaters. Top runners like Goucher and Torres have already stated as much. Well maybe if these guys were running faster than Americans were running 20 years ago I could buy this argument. However, except for Kennedy and the African immigrants, American athletes are not running much faster than Nenow, Liquori, Centrowitz, Salazar, Chapa, etc. Richard McCann
Re: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosophy difference for the sport
NCAA not lilly white either. http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2000/1207/929862.html P.F.Talbot wrote: The high school kids in the U.S. have been on drugs for a long time: http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2000/1213/945303.html The steroid-use rate is 5-8% of ALL high school boys. I would bet that most of the use is done by athletes so put it over 10%. Probably concentrated in football, but a whole lot of HS footballers compete in track and field. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Wes Cook Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:54 AM To: Tom Derderian; lehane; Dan Kaplan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport H. We're not so naïve as to suggest that the NCAA is drug-free? How about some of the foreign athletes who have matriculated (are matriculating) and their track records without even starting on our citizen participants? Otherwise, what is the purpose for NCAA drug testing. Hopefully to try and deter the athlete, alas, we also know how difficult it is to catch the culprits! It's a filter down system. May I be so bold as to suggest the high schools are even caught up in this whole chase your tail game. We're in a pill-popping, needle-sticking culture and time. Wes Cook, George Fox University -Original Message- From: Tom Derderian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:43 AM To: lehane; Dan Kaplan Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Killing the sport was major philosphy difference for the sport Drugs are killing the sport and what is driving drugs is money. Are they related? Maybe there is a place for expressed amateur sports? Such is the NCAA. Tom - Original Message - From: lehane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dan Kaplan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:31 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: major philosphy difference for the sport How 'bout it's killing the sport. Dan Kaplan wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If lots of people decide to rob banks and don't see anything wrong with it, and the police can't keep up, does that mean that bank robbery should be made legal? Robbing banks has a clearly defined ill effect on society. That's yet to be demonstrated very convincingly with regards to performance enhancing drugs. Next. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarxª 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated... - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
t-and-f: White to answer case at US hearing
The Electronic Telegraph White to answer case at US hearing Tom Knight Any remaining hope that Kelli White had of hanging onto her World Championship gold medals all but disappeared last night when she was told she would face a disciplinary hearing in the United States. The International Association of Athletics Federations confirmed that there was a case to answer after the American failed a drugs test during the championships in Paris last month. White, 26, tested positive for the stimulant modafinil after winning the 100 metres. She went on to triumph in the 200m, but since the penalty for this type of stimulant is a public warning and disqualification from the competition, White stands to lose both gold medals if she is found guilty of an offence by the US Anti-Doping Agency. The IAAF have not been convinced by her testimony claiming she did not know that the stimulant was contained in medication she was prescribed for narcolepsy. It is almost certain that White, who is allowed to carry on competing, will see her 100m and 200m titles pass to her compatriot, Torri Edwards, and Russia's Anastasiya Kapachinskaya respectively. The organisers of the Great North Run, meanwhile, are waiting on Paula Radcliffe to add her name to the impressive list of entries for the race on Sept 21. Peter Elliott, the race director, said he expected to hear within the next 24 hours if Radcliffe would include the world's biggest half-marathon in the races she would contest following the injury and illness which forced her to miss the World Championships. If she does decide to compete, Radcliffe will face Berhane Adere, the Ethiopian who won the 10,000m in Paris. Eamonn Condon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
