t-and-f: Masters records for 200, 400, 800, mile
Y ask Y:
When I posted a note to the Masterstf egroups list that Johnny Gray had made
it his goal to break all masters WRs from 200 to mile, the response was
nearly universal scoffing. These folks have a lot of respect for the current
set of records.
Fact is, the WRs for age 40 and over are hard as nails. ("Soft records" in
masters track are pretty rare after a dozen world veterans championships and
countless national and regional masters championships around the world).
Anyway, these are the records for men 40 and over:
200m 21.86 Bill Collins
400m 47.87 Manuel Ulacio
800m 1:50.69 Colm Rothery
1500m 3:44.89 Luiz Jose Gonsalves
Mile 4:02.53 David Moorcroft
3:58.15 (indoors) Eamonn Coghlan
Ken Stone
http://www.masterstrack.com
Re: t-and-f: "U.S. looks to clean up drug issues," by Sheila Hudson
What is the issue here? Disclosure by the US or other federations? Dosxlosure to the public? The assumption that there are secrets? I do not see where the fight is. This is the US, and if any of you have forgotten privacy laws are in existence. Many of which pose a larger penalty than the one of public cynicism. The federations owe to the accused to inform them, no one else! Just because you want to know gives you no right to know. I have read the accusations by this former official against the US, and I saw very little by way of corruption. I have seen a protection of privacy, especially since people were just arguing about the report of "A" sample positives. Floyd tested positive for a masking agent, he was informed, he served his suspension, and the public was unaware. And now it has become public knowledge and it is becoming everything it is not. A coverup denotes no punishment, but this is not the case. C.J. test positive, and the waiting game begins. Where is the "B", and the proper steps HAD to be taken. Informing the accused before you go to the public, realizing that CJ is not a simple issue. There are other people connected to him, the Games are coming, and money is to be made. This is reality. Timing becomes an issue. By the way, how did this become a US case when he was busted at an international meet? Why didn't the IAAF report it right away? Or are we too busy beating on the US to see that there are mirrors all over the place? I think due process has been served, and it is being turned on its head to serve a lesser purpose. People have convinced themselves and others that there is some soft underbelly to the US machine, and anything that comes out is construed as such. DGS The G.O.A.T.
t-and-f: The rich get richer
Prep national cross country champion Dathan Ritzenhein of Rockford (Mich.) High School, has reportedly given a verbal commitment to attend the University of Colorado next fall. And while I haven't seen anything official yet, there have been very strong indications that Alan Webb will be enrolling at Stanford also next fall. Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com
t-and-f: Cottrell Hunter .... retiring?
Last night (10/31/00) Marion Jones appeared as a guest on The Late Show (Letterman). At the end of the interview, Letterman asked her about what "the deal was" with her husband, regarding his doping positives made public during the Sydney Games. She (as anyone would expect) was uncomfortable and said very little (the same things that fans could have seen at the press conference during the Games), except for this: She said that Cottrell Hunter had already announced his "retirement" (her words) before the doping revelations were made public. She was not referring to "retirement" from the Games themselves, but track and field in general, because she indicated that he had decided to "retire" because he wanted to spend more time with his children. Has anyone else heard about this? I was under the impression (from many press releases before the Games) that Mr. Hunter had been making a supreme effort to overcome a knee injury with surgery, in order to compete in the Games. I did not hear about a retirement announcement before or after Sydney. It was my impression from the press conference in Sydney that Mr. Hunter was going to make every effort to prove that the four tests were not, in fact, valid and that he would compete again. Am I wrong? Has everyone else heard about this "retirement" and I somehow did not? Or, for those who saw the show last night, was she referring to something besides her husband's complete retirement from track and field? -Brian McEwen
Re: t-and-f: "U.S. looks to clean up drug issues," by Sheila Hudson
--- Glenn Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Floyd tested positive for ephedrine. on a first offense, you don't > receive a ban, just a warning. His results are erased from the meet > he tested positive at (adidas Portland I believe) http://www.oregontrackclassic.com/results.html Final MEN'S 200 METER DASH 1. Ja'Warren HOOKER, Washington 20.37 w:0.9; 2. Roshaan GRIFFIN, Asics 20.42 w:0.9; 3. John CAPEL, adidas 20.42 w:0.9; 4. Shawn CRAWFORD, Clemson 20.53 w:0.9; 5. Floyd HEARD, SMTC 20.71 w:0.9; 6. Milton MALLARD, Asics 20.83 w:0.9; 7. Gentry BRADLEY, HSI 20.99 w:0.9. What constitutes being erased from the results? Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can! http://Run-Down.com - 9,400 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Cottrell Hunter .... retiring?
In a message dated 11/1/0 12:08:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: <> Hunter announced his retirement in an interview he did with NBC's Ahmad Rashad in Sydney before the public announcement of his positive tests. Walt Murphy
t-and-f: Natasha Mayers (LASW)
Can someone please tell me where Natasha Mayers (LASW) ran the 100m in 11.29 sec? A source says at Sacramento, May 21, but I doubt that because she competed at the California Community College Championships at Bakersfield, 19/20 May over 100m and 200m. Thank you. Winfried Kramer Kohlrodweg 12 66539 Neunkirchen-Kohlhof GERMANY Fax: (49) 6821 932101 Editor of NATIONAL ATHLETICS RECORDS Association of Track & Field Statisticians [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.saar.de/~kramer
Re: t-and-f: "U.S. looks to clean up drug issues," by Sheila Hudson
Netters Peter wrote: > This was just posted on the Canadian list. Any truth in it ? Yeah Pete. where you been? It came across over a month ago. Ephidrine results in a warning - so why would he not compete? Not a big deal here I think.
Re: t-and-f: Masters records for 200, 400, 800, mile
>Anyway, these are the records for men 40 and over: >200m 21.86 Bill Collins >400m 47.87 Manuel Ulacio >800m 1:50.69 Colm Rothery >1500m 3:44.89 Luiz Jose Gonsalves >Mile 4:02.53 David Moorcroft >3:58.15 (indoors) Eamonn Coghlan My take on the likelihood of Johnny Gray breaking any of these records: 200: 1% 400:50% 800:80% 1500: 65% Mile: 60% Indoor: 45% RT
Re: t-and-f: Cottrell Hunter .... retiring?
So does this mean that Regina J. is "retired" now also? -Original Message- From: Mcewen, Brian T <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 11:52 AM Subject: t-and-f: Cottrell Hunter retiring? >Last night (10/31/00) Marion Jones appeared as a guest on The Late Show >(Letterman). At the end of the interview, Letterman asked her about what >"the deal was" with her husband, regarding his doping positives made public >during the Sydney Games. > >She (as anyone would expect) was uncomfortable and said very little (the >same things that fans could have seen at the press conference during the >Games), except for this: She said that Cottrell Hunter had already >announced his "retirement" (her words) before the doping revelations were >made public. She was not referring to "retirement" from the Games >themselves, but track and field in general, because she indicated that he >had decided to "retire" because he wanted to spend more time with his >children. > >Has anyone else heard about this? I was under the impression (from many >press releases before the Games) that Mr. Hunter had been making a supreme >effort to overcome a knee injury with surgery, in order to compete in the >Games. > >I did not hear about a retirement announcement before or after Sydney. It >was my impression from the press conference in Sydney that Mr. Hunter was >going to make every effort to prove that the four tests were not, in fact, >valid and that he would compete again. > >Am I wrong? Has everyone else heard about this "retirement" and I somehow >did not? Or, for those who saw the show last night, was she referring to >something besides her husband's complete retirement from track and field? > >-Brian McEwen
Re: t-and-f: Cottrell Hunter .... retiring?
Netters Walt wrote: > Hunter announced his retirement in an interview he did with NBC's Ahmad > Rashad in Sydney before the public announcement of his positive tests. To ad to that I recall that in one interview that C.J. had said that the only reason he was competing was because Marion was. That he had intended to quit several years ago but stayed on so he could travel with her. At the press conference in Sydney or at least at some public point he had said he did not take the drugs and that track just did not mean that much to him. He had expressed those sentiments before. Which is one reason I was surprised about the positives and somewhat curious.
Re: t-and-f: "U.S. looks to clean up drug issues," by Sheila Hudson
Hi: Sorry I did not see it a month ago. I must have missed it with all the Games material. I really did not know of the positive test I was just asking a question. I never said that he should or should not compete. At 05:38 PM 11/1/00 GMT, you wrote: >Netters > >Peter wrote: >> This was just posted on the Canadian list. Any truth in it ? > >Yeah Pete. where you been? It came across over a month ago. Ephidrine >results in a warning - so why would he not compete? > > >Not a big deal here I think. > Peter Stuart Head Coach South-East Athletics Head Coach NB Canada Games NB Coaching Chair Master Course Conductor
FW: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping
Sideshow says: <><><><><><><><<><><><><><>< I know you said you couldn't think of what exactly were the times that would reflect the barriers of human performance, but I ask you to try. Would you say the following were dopedg times? 8:05 steeple? 27:48 10K in Nairobi (the fastest altitude time ever)? I know for a FACT that un-doped athletes ran these times. If you're going to attack all fast performances, give some standards and I'll chime in with athletes I know are clean and have run those times. It's your move. sideshow @@@ I didn't say I "couldn't think of the barriers" of human performance ... I said: I don't know the Limits of human performance in distance running, but they are NOT at the level where today's runners would lap Viren, Yifter, Rono, Schildhauer and Cova at their very best. Man has not evolved enough to lap the greatest runners of just 15 years before. Training methods have not changed and it doesn't have anything to do with more people running. This is my opinion. Just as it is your opinion that man has made a quantum leap in performance in the sport ... so much that the fastest men from ten years earlier (12:58/27:08) would be also-rans. But since you asked, take a crack at providing me with "clean" runners who have run: * an 8:03 steeple as a 19 year old. * under 7:25 for a 3000m. * under 12:44 for 5000m. * under 26:40 for 10,000m. * 12:54 5000m as a 19 year old. * 27:24 as a 19 year old. BTW, How many times did you test these guys and what testing method did you use? Can you send me the negative test results? You see, when you say that you "know for a fact" that anyone is clean ... that is as much proof as me saying I "know for a fact that they are using". And, I don't "know" that, and I never said I did. It is my opinion that they are. It is my opinion that the current world class standards for the 1500m to the marathon are just not humanly possible without the blood drugs. If they were, then the world would have run them in the 80's. The article (submitted by OZTRACK) gave more evidence that this opinion is widely held in Cycling. It also outlines what I already knew: doping is practiced by more than 95% of the professional riders in Europe. There are currently two doctors in Italy under indictment for sporting fraud (supplying drugs to athletes) among other crimes ... one was named in the article (Conconi) the other is Dr. Michele Ferrari. They both have been forced to relinquish the patient files that detail the treatment of more than 100 athletes apiece, over many years. Certainly, runners will be named as those who have paid for the services of these two. Until then, I will try to concentrate on facts only, and identify my opinions as just that: opinions based on evidence. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 2:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping In a message dated Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:04:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Mcewen, Brian T" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Substitute "distance running" for professional cycling in the last sentence and you have the ESSENCE of the reason for my anti-drug blather that has been so unpopular for a year. An unaided male cannot ride at 33 mph ... just as routine 2:06 and 2:07 marathons and 27:00 10k's cannot be done without the dope. For those of you who always say: Prove to me there is a fundamental limit to human performance! I say: It looks like someone is here who will do that for you. I don't know whether the current limits are 27:40 or 26:58 or something else ... but it is not 26:22. >>> Brian, I don't think anyone would deny that there is doping in track & field. But what I object to is that you seem to believe that every distance runner who is running fast is doping. That is simply not true, and don't dismiss it as naiveté or having my head in the sand. It is true that the rash of fast times in the distances has coincided with the availability of EPO. But this does not necessarily mean there is a cause and effect relationship. Sure, some athletes are doping, but I would posit that the Ethiopians and Kenyans are now fully realizing their potential, and that's why they're running so well. Marathon times are fast, yes, but where are the times being run? We're not seeing many faster times at Boston or New York than we saw 15 years ago. We're seeing them in Amsterdam, Berlin and Chicago. These races are pancake flat and are using a seemingly endless string of rabbits. Just a few years ago on this list we were discussing how unusual it was for Kenyans to be so dominant on the track, roads and cross country but be so weak in the marathon. Now we're seeing what they can do in the event now that they know how to train for it. Did you look at Marty Post's data on the number of Kenyans who have run under 2:
Re: t-and-f: Cottrell Hunter .... retiring?
--- Walt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Hunter announced his retirement in an interview he did with NBC's Ahmad > Rashad in Sydney before the public announcement of his positive tests. Did that interview ever get aired? --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > At the press conference in Sydney or at least at some public point he > had said he did not take the drugs and that track just did not mean > that much to him. It sure seemed to mean a lot to that guy posing as the world champion shot putter in Seville last year... His doing well also appeared to mean a lot to Marion, although I guess I would get teary eyed, too, if my travelling mate won a world title. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can! http://Run-Down.com - 9,400 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/
RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping
> Brian T McEwen says > > I said: I don't know the Limits of human performance in distance running, > but > they are NOT at the level where today's runners would lap Viren, Yifter, > Rono, Schildhauer and Cova at their very best. > Well, Henry ran 27:22 in 1978, 22 years ago. 22 years before that, 1956, the WR was 28:30. Hmmm, Curiously, just about a 1 lap difference. Now, guess what? 20 years before that, 1936, the WR was 30:06, or approximately a lap and a half behind Kuts. Wanna go back 20 more years to 1916? I bet even you can guess what's gonna happen here. Yep!! One more time. Not quite a lap this time, but...30:58, 52 seconds slower. I don't know about 1896, but, how do you explain Nurmi being a lap better than Bouin, Kuts being a lap better than Nurmi, Rono being a lap better than Kuts, but Gebrselassie NOT being able to be a lap better than Rono? /Drew
Re: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping
On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:27:33 -0500 , you wrote: >> Brian T McEwen says >> >> I said: I don't know the Limits of human performance in distance running, >> but >> they are NOT at the level where today's runners would lap Viren, Yifter, >> Rono, Schildhauer and Cova at their very best. >> > Well, Henry ran 27:22 in 1978, 22 years ago. 22 years before >that, 1956, the WR was 28:30. Hmmm, Curiously, just about a 1 lap >difference. Now, guess what? 20 years before that, 1936, the WR was 30:06, >or approximately a lap and a half behind Kuts. Wanna go back 20 more years >to 1916? I bet even you can guess what's gonna happen here. Yep!! One more >time. Not quite a lap this time, but...30:58, 52 seconds slower. I don't >know about 1896, but, how do you explain Nurmi being a lap better than >Bouin, Kuts being a lap better than Nurmi, Rono being a lap better than >Kuts, but Gebrselassie NOT being able to be a lap better than Rono? >/Drew > Swami divines two possible answers: 1) law of diminishing returns 2) Bouin, Nurmi, Kuts and Rono were obviously doping, while Geb is not RT
t-and-f: IAAF Forum moderators introduced
Y ask Y: A few days ago, I noted the introduction of bulletin boards on the IAAF Web site. Today I share introduction of the moderators of said forums. Here's note I got in reply to a query: Hi Ken, The current moderators are Pollyanna Wright -- who has been an IAAF media officer for a number of years now and is the member of the IAAF media department most closely involved in the IAAF web site. The other is myself -- Sean Wallace-Jones. I have been working with the IAAF since 1996. My official title is Deputy Director for Electronic Media, an active athlete in my younger days (principally discus and shot put), I have been responsible for the content side of the IAAF web site (content, content development and design control) since the end of 1996. My background has been in journalism, varied business areas and languages. Technical development of the IAAF Web is largely managed by an external supplier, Delta Tre, in Italy, according to the briefs I prepare, and in conjunction with the IAAF IT department (results service with Delta Tre, database management, etc). I hope that you will encourage the members of the T&F lists to open some of their (more interesting) discussions to the world! Kind regards Sean Wallace-Jones Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
Re: t-and-f: Cottrell Hunter .... retiring?
In a message dated 11/1/00 7:01:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > -- Walt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Hunter announced his retirement in an interview he did with NBC's Ahmad > > Rashad in Sydney before the public announcement of his positive tests. > Just like the inept employee said after being fired "You can't fire me, I QUIT!" Mike Platt
RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 2:46 PM > >In a message dated Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:04:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, >"Mcewen, Brian T" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >Substitute "distance running" for professional cycling in the last sentence >and you have the ESSENCE of the reason for my anti-drug blather that has >been so unpopular for a year. An unaided male cannot ride at 33 mph ... >just as routine 2:06 and 2:07 marathons and 27:00 10k's cannot be done >without the dope. > >For those of you who always say: Prove to me there is a fundamental limit >to human performance! I say: It looks like someone is here who will do >that for you. I don't know whether the current limits are 27:40 or 26:58 or >something else ... but it is not 26:22. <>> I would chime in here with two points. First, to imagine that 17-18 year old East African youths are heavily using, much less even have access to, EPO is simple foolishness. It's at this age that we first see the phenomenal times from these athletes. The average income in these countries is in the hundreds of dollars per year! They simply can't afford to buy these drugs. Unless you can come up with documentation that the Kenyan or Ethiopian governments are out in the hinterlands distributing these drugs, when they can't even distribute food adequately, I doubt that drugs are behind the widespread depth of African performances. Second, anyone who saw Henry Rono run in the late 70s will tell you that he could be competing with today's athletes toe to toe. I saw him run his 8:05 WR in cool windy condition on an inside water jump, winning by 30 seconds and nearly falling in the water jump a couple of times. He nearly lapped the field in his 13:08 WR, and I think his winning margin in his 27:22 WR was similarly large. His 1977 XC win over World XC champ to be John Treacy in Spokane was a walk in the park. And his 8:18/13:22 NCAA double "fartlek workout" is legendary. All of this before EPO was ever available. My point is that we have seen the tremendous talent before that can deliver these performances. Come up with something other than your own disbelief and we might start to listen. Richard McCann
Re: t-and-f: Cottrell Hunter .... retiring?
On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:50:49 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/1/00 7:01:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >> -- Walt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> > Hunter announced his retirement in an interview he did with NBC's Ahmad >> > Rashad in Sydney before the public announcement of his positive tests. >> > >Just like the inept employee said after being fired "You can't fire me, I >QUIT!" > >Mike Platt Or better yet, as an explanation for why he was uncompetitive this summer, Johnny Gray can explain that 'he already retired in April, and was just out there 'fun-running' all summer :-) He just didn't bother to tell anybody. RT
t-and-f: Louise Tricard's marathon debut
Y ask Y: Please indulge me a moment to call your attention to one masters entrant in this Sunday's New York Marathon. Louise Tricard -- who literally wrote the book on American women in athletics (It's called "American Women's Track & Field -- A History, 1895-1980) -- is making her marathon debut at New York. As a member of the NYC Police Athletic League, she represented the USA in the Pan Am Games (1959) in the 200 and set an American indoor record in the 440-yard dash. She managed USA teams from 1978 to 1987. She's competed in masters nationals, and had a big hand in spiking the no-false-starts rule in USATF Masters. Please join me in wishing Louise good luck and godspeed in New York -- yet another versatile sprinter showing that a marathon isn't out of reach for anyone. Louise is at [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ltricard @ aol.com) Go, LT! Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
Re: t-and-f: Masters records for 200, 400, 800, mile
In a message dated 00-11-01 03:35:33 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<<
Fact is, the WRs for age 40 and over are hard as nails. ("Soft records" in
masters track are pretty rare after a dozen world veterans championships and
countless national and regional masters championships around the world).
Anyway, these are the records for men 40 and over:
200m 21.86 Bill Collins
400m 47.87 Manuel Ulacio
800m 1:50.69 Colm Rothery
1500m 3:44.89 Luiz Jose Gonsalves
Mile 4:02.53 David Moorcroft
3:58.15 (indoors) Eamonn Coghlan
>>
These Masters records are quite "soft". With the exception of the 200m, the
400, 800, 1500, and mile are all within his range. If I'm not mistaken,
doesn't he have the 800m already?
Larry A. Morgan
Elizabeth Heat TC
t-and-f: more Rono
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Richard McCann > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 4:32 PM > To: T&FMail List > Subject: RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping > the water jump a couple of times. > He nearly > lapped the field in his 13:08 WR, and I think his winning margin in his > 27:22 WR was similarly large. His 1977 XC win over World XC champ to be > John Treacy in Spokane was a walk in the park. And his 8:18/13:22 NCAA > double "fartlek workout" is legendary. All of this before EPO was ever > available. My point is that we have seen the tremendous talent > before that > can deliver these performances. Come up with something other > than your own > disbelief and we might start to listen. > > Richard McCann > Neither Geb nor Tergat have done anything close to Rono's incomparable 13:2? in a horizontally blowing blizzard (Pullman, WA 1978). malmo
RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping
> to buy these drugs. Unless you can come up with documentation that the > Kenyan or Ethiopian governments are out in the hinterlands distributing > these drugs, when they can't even distribute food adequately, I > doubt that > drugs are behind the widespread depth of African performances. > > Richard McCann > Ah, there's that rhetorical shield of yours again. Because RC hasn't seen the evidence it doesn't exist. If there is no documentation then it doesn't exist. I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that either the Kenyan or Ethiopian governments has, or even possess the ability or will to administer an American-style doping program. These countries, both known for a long history of neglect of its citizenry, prove each year that getting travel visas in order is a monumental task. malmo
