t-and-f: Al Sheahen's blast at Brisbane WAVA
Greetings, all I've posted the entirety of editor and publisher Al Sheahen's column in the August 2001 National Masters News. In it, he sharply criticizes the organizers of the recent Brisbane world masters track championships as well as WMA, the world governing body. Check out: http://www.masterstrack.com/news2001/news2001august14.html I welcome your comments. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
RE: t-and-f: Most 3200/2M ever under 9:00?
John Dye [EMAIL PROTECTED] DyeStat - www.dyestat.com Internet home of high school track field cc What is the most sub-9:00 2-miles/ 3200m races by a HS boy during his HS career? A friend asked me how many Ritz racked up and whether he had the most? I knew he had quite a few (indoors and out) ... but others must have run quite a few also. This is a job for DyeStat's TF/X Interactive database! :) I don't know about all-time, because we only started 4 years ago, but I do know about Ritzenhein, Webb, and Hall. DyeStat's TF/X Interactive database has these performances under 9 minutes for 2 miles (3200 meter times are converted by adding 3.40, which is indicated by a c after the time). N: after the time means indoor. Dathan Ritzenhein 8 Alan Webb 1 Ryan Hall 2 RITZENHEIN B/G Date Name School Event Perf Notes Meet b 2001-06-16 Ritzenhein, Dathan #1(2001 MI) Rockford B-2Mile 8, 44.43 - NC AOC nationals b 2000-05-06 Ritzenhein, Dathan #1(2001 MI) Rockford B-2Mile 8, 44.50 c - - OH Roosevelt Mem b 2001-06-02 Ritzenhein, Dathan #1(2001 MI) Rockford B-2Mile 8, 46.72 c - SR - MI State Div 1 b 2000-06-17 Ritzenhein, Dathan #1(2001 MI) Rockford B-2Mile 8, 48.06 - - NC FLO Raleigh b -00-00 Ritzenhein, Dathan #1(2001 MI) Rockford B-2Mile 8, 50.70 N: - MI Central Michigan b 2000-03-12 Ritzenhein, Dathan #1(2001 MI) Rockford B-2Mile 8, 52.94 N: - - IN Nike Indoor Class b 2001-05-05 Ritzenhein, Dathan #1(2001 MI) Rockford B-2Mile 8, 56.20 c - OH Dayton Roos Mem b 2000-03-01 Ritzenhein, Dathan #1(2001 MI) Rockford B-2Mile 8, 57.60 N: c - - MI Cent Mich WEBB 2001-03-11 Webb, Alan #1(2001 VA) South Lakes Reston B-2Mile 8, 45.19 N: - @PG-Co MD NIC HALL b 2000-06-03 Hall, Ryan #1(2001 CA) Big Bear Lake B-2Mile 8, 58.52 c - - CA State Finals b 2001-03-24 Hall, Ryan #1(2001 CA) Big Bear Lake B-2Mile 8, 58.70 - CA Azusa Pacific
t-and-f: El Guerrouj at Zurich
Well, technically it won't be El Guerrouj's 5000 debut. At the 1992 World Junior Championships he ran 13:46.79 for the bronze medal. Incidentally the race was won by none other than... Haile Gebrselassie; '93 5000 world champion Ismael Kirui was inbetween. Pretty stud group of medal winners. El Guerrouj has said he's aiming for sub 12:50 at Zurich. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 5:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Post Edmonton thoughts On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:55:29 -0700, Conway Hill wrote: On to Zurich Ah yes, Zurich...the Swiss stud that 38-year-old Regina Jacobs has been saving herself for...:-) By the way, TFN reports that El Guerrouj is gonna race a 5K at Zurich this Friday... ...what are the odds for a sub-13 debut? RT
RE: t-and-f: Most 3200/2M ever under 9:00?
A possible answer to my own question about most sub-9:00 2-miles (courtesy of Steve Underwood). ... Here's a rough chrono list with no conversions for Dathan Ritzenhein: 1999 9:01.?y FLO 2000 8:54.8mi CMU indoor 8:52.94y Nike Indoor 8:41.10m Roosevelt 8:58.85m MITCA team 9:00.63m State 8:52.5m Hanson's (14:13 - 5k split) 8:48.06y FLO 2001 8:47.4mi Central? 8:53.6m Penn (13:51 - 5k split.) 8:52.9y Roosevelt 8:43.32m state 8:44.43y FLO 8:51.1m USATF (13:44 - 5k spl.) I think he only had a few other sub-9:10s ( 9:07.7 his soph year ?), but how many other sub-9:20s? I'll bet at least a dozen ... Still, 14 times at 9:01 3200m or better. I wonder how that compares to others who were prolific. Some of the other all-time stars ahead of Ritz on the list (Nelson, Reynolds, Scharsu) didn't have as many, I'll bet. == Stephen Underwood
Re: t-and-f: Post Edmonton thoughts
Buck wrote: I dunno' about the mediocrity part. Did you see that last foul by Stringfellow? I know talking about a scratch is like arguing about whether Superman could beat up the Hulk, but dang! It wasn't THAT much of a scratch and it LOOKED like a mid 28' jump and if the Hulk got REALLY mad... Cheers, Buck Jones True Buck ... But ya know in 1981 Carl Lewis close fouled what looked to be 30' !!! AND he raised his hands and eased off on his way to 19.75 .. And of course it was just a matter of time before he garnered BOTH records for his own ... Right ??? Well seems to me that Carl's 200 PR is still 19.75 .. And in only one competition did he manage to go over 29' - oh and he lost to Powell's WR !!! I bet that made the HULK mad !!! Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Post Edmonton thoughts
Both you guys make good points. I have been able to watch Savante develop over the last few years and he will be anything but mediocre, I also believe that the other Americans in the final - Pate Phillips have bright futures. All three of the young men have what it takes - Speed , decent techniques and good coaching. So look for them to be around for years provided they keep a good head on there shoulders. Mike Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/14/01 10:54AM Buck wrote: I dunno' about the mediocrity part. Did you see that last foul by Stringfellow? I know talking about a scratch is like arguing about whether Superman could beat up the Hulk, but dang! It wasn't THAT much of a scratch and it LOOKED like a mid 28' jump and if the Hulk got REALLY mad... Cheers, Buck Jones True Buck ... But ya know in 1981 Carl Lewis close fouled what looked to be 30' !!! AND he raised his hands and eased off on his way to 19.75 .. And of course it was just a matter of time before he garnered BOTH records for his own ... Right ??? Well seems to me that Carl's 200 PR is still 19.75 .. And in only one competition did he manage to go over 29' - oh and he lost to Powell's WR !!! I bet that made the HULK mad !!! Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: MJ BAD for the sport- JD on the other hand...
Does anyone else think Michael Johnson is bad for the future of track and field? He admittedly knows nothing about anything other than the sprints, he was so negative about the outcome of these WC, and he has said in the past that track and field should just do away with the distance races (for television convenience). Conversely, I love John Drummond. He's got energy, character, AND knowledge. He knew it was an upset that Gebreselassie lost, was impressed with the marathon finishes, knew all about women's pole vaulting and Yegorova's EPO scandal. Unlike Michael, he was positive about these Champs, and unlike Michael, put on a smile along with his knowledge. Although I appreciate everything he did on the track, I would have to say that I dislike MJ more than any other track and field athlete... and I am not alone in this sentiment. After seeing JD a little more than normal this past week, I would gave to say he is one of my favorites. What do you all think? Mike _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: RE: Post Edmonton thoughts
One of the recurring comments found in newspaper coverage of the meet, was the how thin the program was on many days. Ever since Gothenburg, when the day off on Wednesday was eliminated, the IAAF has resorted to special events to fill out the program. Spread out over 9 days (not counting the marathon/opening ceremonies) it's hard to get worked up up about attending many of the days. Now, in their pursuit to sell more premium tickets, we can look forward to the same thing at the Olympics. -Original Message- The Worlds Was a hard meet to get up for some reason .. The first couple of days were very exciting as the 100 men burned up the track .. But things cooled off and seemed to stay that way .. Didn't seem to have the usual electricity associated with the Worlds .. Was nice however to see TV coverage that featured competition over fluff !!! On to Zurich Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Post Edmonton thoughts
Mike wrote: Both you guys make good points. I have been able to watch Savante develop over the last few years and he will be anything but mediocre, I also believe that the other Americans in the final - Pate Phillips have bright futures. All three of the young men have what it takes - Speed , decent techniques and good coaching. So look for them to be around for years provided they keep a good head on there shoulders. I agree that all three have great potential .. And all acquitted themselves nicely in Edmonton .. My reference to mediocrity lies in that the previous generation of jumpers (Powell, Lewis, Myricks, Pedroso, Emmiyan) put the bar so far out there as to render anything less than say 27'6 mediocre .. Since '79 when Myricks went 27'9 at the World Cup, championship battles have taken place in the 28' range .. Randy Williams won the '72 Olympics at 27'4 as a Junior .. And Boston, Robinson and Ter-Ovanesian were battling in the low 27's in the 60's .. But I guess depends on ones perspective and what we (or should I say the athletes) are willing to settle for ... Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: RE: Post Edmonton thoughts
I actually thought the action was pretty well spread out. Most days included exciting finals and important prelims. they did a good job at the track of highlighting often neglected field events. Edmonton was very exciting. Kebba Tolbert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) = Men's and Women's Jumps Multis Coach Syracuse University Track Field From: Chambers, Patrick J. III [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Chambers, Patrick J. III [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: RE: Post Edmonton thoughts Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:12:15 -0400 One of the recurring comments found in newspaper coverage of the meet, was the how thin the program was on many days. Ever since Gothenburg, when the day off on Wednesday was eliminated, the IAAF has resorted to special events to fill out the program. Spread out over 9 days (not counting the marathon/opening ceremonies) it's hard to get worked up up about attending many of the days. Now, in their pursuit to sell more premium tickets, we can look forward to the same thing at the Olympics. -Original Message- The Worlds Was a hard meet to get up for some reason .. The first couple of days were very exciting as the 100 men burned up the track .. But things cooled off and seemed to stay that way .. Didn't seem to have the usual electricity associated with the Worlds .. Was nice however to see TV coverage that featured competition over fluff !!! On to Zurich Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: RE: Post Edmonton thoughts
Chambers, Patrick J. III wrote: One of the recurring comments found in newspaper coverage of the meet, was the how thin the program was on many days. Perhaps, but we still had many periods when there were two field events going, along with a series of running events. It's very difficult to follow everything under those circumstances. I generally give up on one of the field events and try to chart the other while also watching the running events and taking splits. I am one of those fans who likes all the events and would like to be able to watch each with attention. Our little group of six tries to help each other out, calling out, Babakova in the high jump, etc. so the others won't miss a jump. This will never happen, but in my dream meet there would be only one event going at a time, so I could devote full attention to each one, watching and recording every attempt, keeping track of the standings, etc. Aside from the ripoff of the first day, when we paid $130 Canadian to see almost nothing of the men's marathon, I enjoyed the meet immensely. Separate post about the coverage of the women's marathon to follow. Cheers, Alan Shank
Re: t-and-f: MJ BAD for the sport- JD on the other hand...
Does anyone else think Michael Johnson is bad for the future of track and field? He admittedly knows nothing about anything other than the sprints, he was so negative about the outcome of these WC, and he has said in the past that track and field should just do away with the distance races (for television convenience). I do like Drummond's energy and comments. And MJ has said some things that I don't agree with. But I did enjoy MJ's commentary more than anyone else's during the broadcasts. No one who gives even a modicum of thought would really propose doing away with anything shorter than a 10K due to television. Just about every baseball game has at least one half inning that lasts 10+ minutes without commercials, so I don't think it's a big deal to have one event like that in track. Or, as a compromise, show the first 5 minutes, go to commercial for 3 minutes and show the last 5 laps. The problem is not that distance races take too long. How long did the men's 100m take to air? It's that distance races are perceived as not being popular, and to some extent that is not wrong. But the mile is very popular and the steeple would be easy to make interesting with the proper focus on the barriers and water jump. So it's really the 5K and 10K that we're talking about. I'd be curious when the last time a 5K was shown in its entirety on U.S. television at any time other than late at night or during the TripleCast in 1992. I can't remember a time. It's laughable for network people to claim that no one wants to see something they haven't tried to show in more than a decade. And it is impossible to believe that any testing they have done to supposedly make this conclusion have the kind of drama and quality that a real broadcast would provide. I hear things about short attention spans, but there are so many techniques for keeping attention, even during a 13 minute race, that that excuse doesn't fly either. The real reason for lack of distance coverage - there's no money in televising track and field unless you're willing to take risks in trying different things. Given the sums generated by other sports, I can't really blame the networks for not bothering to take those risks. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: MJ BAD for the sport- JD on the other hand...
I didn't see the NBC coverage (CBC had excellent coverage as per usual), but I'm sure JD did a marvelous job. I've always thought he was one of the classiest of the american sprinters. I don't know how he fits in with that HSI group. I was particularly impressed with what he did in the 4x100. That was one of the most courageous displays I've ever seen in elite level track. The guy jeopardized his career and quite definately the rest of his season to get the stick to his team mate. It's bad enough to pull a muscle, but then to keep trying to run on it does a LOT of damage, he could have just pulled up and no one would think any worse of him. I know he was considering retiring this year, but I hope he reconsiders. Glenn Smith - Original Message - From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:49 AM Subject: t-and-f: MJ BAD for the sport- JD on the other hand... Does anyone else think Michael Johnson is bad for the future of track and field? He admittedly knows nothing about anything other than the sprints, he was so negative about the outcome of these WC, and he has said in the past that track and field should just do away with the distance races (for television convenience). Conversely, I love John Drummond. He's got energy, character, AND knowledge. He knew it was an upset that Gebreselassie lost, was impressed with the marathon finishes, knew all about women's pole vaulting and Yegorova's EPO scandal. Unlike Michael, he was positive about these Champs, and unlike Michael, put on a smile along with his knowledge. Although I appreciate everything he did on the track, I would have to say that I dislike MJ more than any other track and field athlete... and I am not alone in this sentiment. After seeing JD a little more than normal this past week, I would gave to say he is one of my favorites. What do you all think? Mike _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure???
I watched the Gabe interview as well and I don't remember some of the things that you describe. Although I did watch the ABC interview and perhaps he gave another to CBC perhaps? Specifically I don't recall him saying that he owned El G, or of him wiping the track of all of them in 3 years. Lastly, I don't remember any references to his SAT or his math major and inability to count to 10. It may have been a different interview than the one he gave on ABC right after the race. Jeff -Original Message- From: Geoff Pietsch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 10:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure??? I watched this live so I don't have it on tape. Is the quote below accurate? I don't recall it the way it is printed here. Yes, Gabe did say he looked in El G's eyes, and, as I recall, he made it clear he was no longer intimidated, but I do NOT recall him saying he owned El G or anyone else. And I can't imagine not picking up on such a remark. I also do not recall any mention of his SAT scores, and the other stuff about his academic worries seems very different than what I remember. Does anyone have it on tape to verify? As for Gabe's dropping out because he was undertrained, I recall Bikila's winning gold and setting a world record in the marathon (not something you want to be undertrained for) 6 weeks after having his appendix removed (you think he missed a little training time there perhaps?) and didn't Wottle miss a lot of training due to injury before his 800 gold in '72? Geoff From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:48:19 -0400 If he knew he was out of shape, why didn't he pass it over to Berryhill who has been racing fairly well this summer? Instead he goes there unprepared and embarasses us both on and off the track. No slight to good ol Jabe... but he himself admitted he was not in shape. If I was Brian, I would be livid. USATF should play more a role in the athlete's lives and training and should never have let Jabe go if he was not ready to compete. Coachy Vinny gets a big thumbs down as well. M You saw me get everything out of myself that I had out there. If you knew my training, you'd laugh. It's been under 20 miles a week. But it's a thrill to compete on this big stage. This was so much more encouraging than the Olympics. I was not scared. I looked El Guerrouj in the eyes, and I was not scared. I own him. I own all these guys. Give me two years and I'll be wiping them all up off the track. I have a vision of winning at Athens in three years, and the vision starts with conquering all my fears. It's all about fear. I've been fighting that at Stanford. I got into academic trouble this year. I've been fighting fears about my SAT scores and being at Stanford and being a math major. I mean, I can't count to 10...well, maybe I can, but square root of two, what do I know? I've been studying my ass off, but I need more help with my classes than I do with my races. I've got two finals when I get back from here. I haven't been getting any sleep. - Jabe _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: RE: Post Edmonton thoughts
Was a hard meet to get up for some reason .. The first couple of days were very exciting as the 100 men burned up the track .. But things cooled off and seemed to stay that way .. Didn't seem to have the usual electricity associated with the Worlds .. Was nice however to see TV coverage that featured competition over fluff !!! I don't know, the women's 800m and men's 200m alone were enough to keep the adrenaline flowing for me. And the men's 4x100 and women's 4x400 certainly had plenty of drama both in the rounds and the finals. Geb losing in the 10K didn't shock or excite me the way it did a lot of people, but it was still a compelling moment. It is never easy to get into the field events on TV with the typical abysmal coverage (Dwight's commentary was fine, they just don't give him much to comment on). But the men's javelin provided drama both from a world standpoint and an American standpoint and Markov's pole vault was a jaw-dropper. The competition was just as good as always, but the performances in general were off a little bit. That didn't bother me much, but that could be part of the flat feeling. - Ed Parrot
RE: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure???
I got that quote driectly from the runnersworld.com website I believe. M From: Hanks, Jeffrey S [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure??? Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:02:37 -0700 I watched the Gabe interview as well and I don't remember some of the things that you describe. Although I did watch the ABC interview and perhaps he gave another to CBC perhaps? Specifically I don't recall him saying that he owned El G, or of him wiping the track of all of them in 3 years. Lastly, I don't remember any references to his SAT or his math major and inability to count to 10. It may have been a different interview than the one he gave on ABC right after the race. Jeff -Original Message- From: Geoff Pietsch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 10:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure??? I watched this live so I don't have it on tape. Is the quote below accurate? I don't recall it the way it is printed here. Yes, Gabe did say he looked in El G's eyes, and, as I recall, he made it clear he was no longer intimidated, but I do NOT recall him saying he owned El G or anyone else. And I can't imagine not picking up on such a remark. I also do not recall any mention of his SAT scores, and the other stuff about his academic worries seems very different than what I remember. Does anyone have it on tape to verify? As for Gabe's dropping out because he was undertrained, I recall Bikila's winning gold and setting a world record in the marathon (not something you want to be undertrained for) 6 weeks after having his appendix removed (you think he missed a little training time there perhaps?) and didn't Wottle miss a lot of training due to injury before his 800 gold in '72? Geoff From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:48:19 -0400 If he knew he was out of shape, why didn't he pass it over to Berryhill who has been racing fairly well this summer? Instead he goes there unprepared and embarasses us both on and off the track. No slight to good ol Jabe... but he himself admitted he was not in shape. If I was Brian, I would be livid. USATF should play more a role in the athlete's lives and training and should never have let Jabe go if he was not ready to compete. Coachy Vinny gets a big thumbs down as well. M You saw me get everything out of myself that I had out there. If you knew my training, you'd laugh. It's been under 20 miles a week. But it's a thrill to compete on this big stage. This was so much more encouraging than the Olympics. I was not scared. I looked El Guerrouj in the eyes, and I was not scared. I own him. I own all these guys. Give me two years and I'll be wiping them all up off the track. I have a vision of winning at Athens in three years, and the vision starts with conquering all my fears. It's all about fear. I've been fighting that at Stanford. I got into academic trouble this year. I've been fighting fears about my SAT scores and being at Stanford and being a math major. I mean, I can't count to 10...well, maybe I can, but square root of two, what do I know? I've been studying my ass off, but I need more help with my classes than I do with my races. I've got two finals when I get back from here. I haven't been getting any sleep. - Jabe _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: MJ BAD for the sport- JD on the other hand...
Regarding the comments on televising distance races: CBC showed the entire 10k ... YES, the ENTIRE 10k ... save a break for two commercials. They also showed about 5 minutes before the race, and 5 minutes after. I think it aired just after midnight EDT, so it was being shown live (I think, but am not sure). The BAD news: My 8 hour tape ran out at 25:00 into the race, so I didn't get it all on tape and my reception (only for CBC, and only THAT race) was so bad it was barely worth having it on tape. I am still wading through my 40 hours of taped coverage to see if I successfully taped the ESPN2 telecast. That segment should be better reception and I heard they had a Miruts Yifter/Haile Geb. interview before the race. I doubt they devoted 35 minutes of air-time to it though. /Brian P.S. I agree with your comments about Steeple, 5k, 10k coverage though, Ed.
Re: t-and-f: MJ BAD for the sport- JD on the other hand...
Michael wrote: Does anyone else think Michael Johnson is bad for the future of track and field? He admittedly knows nothing about anything other than the sprints, he was so negative about the outcome of these WC, and he has said in the past that track and field should just do away with the distance races (for television convenience). I wouldn't say MJ is bad for the future of the sport .. He wasn't that bad (of course sitting next to Carol Lewis will help you look good) .. I think he has difficulty putting aside his arrogance when talking about other athletes .. Its almost as if he still looks upon them as acompetitors .. I think once he gets over his own competitiveness he will be a good sprint commentator .. But if you are offering a choice between he and JD I would have to choose JD .. Much more personable and outgoing .. Would add a lot of energy to the booth .. And seems fairly knowledgeable (both inside and outside of the sprints) .. Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: MJ BAD for the sport- JD on the other hand...
Two comments that probably weren't mean to be taken the way they sound: --- Glenn Smith wrote about JD: I've always thought he was one of the classiest of the american sprinters. I don't know how he fits in with that HSI group. Ouch! --- Michael Contopoulos wrote about MJ: He admittedly knows nothing about anything other than the sprints Which, of course, goes against the grain of this list... Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
t-and-f: World's
Just got back from Edmonton. Haven't had a chance to read many posts, so I'll probably be repeating some stuff. The meet itself was excellently produced. Those Video screens make a huge difference! They were well used and offered some great views when I was roving the stadium and sitting in the North end by the Pole Vaulters. Hersh and Hill did a bang up job of keeping us informed, so much better than John Ridgeon and Pepe Le Pew, although I'm damned if I knew Hill spoke such fluent French! Most enjoyed event: Woman's PV. Dragila and Feofanova going at it hammer and tongs. What a contrast in athletes. Dragila built solidly, Feofanova looking like a waif. Interesting stats: In the second 1500 semi, where Kevin Sullivan no showed, they ran 53 something for the 3d lap. In the 5000 the last 1600 was 4.03; the last 800 1.54+. Just goes to show the best 1500 man does not necessarily win these kinds of races. Reminded me of 1972 5000 with Viren doing 4.01 for last 1600 in much slower race. In the 10,000 the first 2000 was 5.09, as was the last. Fan fun: I couldn't stand the breakfast at my motel so went next door to the Holiday Inn and found out the British team was there. Had Buffet every morning amongst the likes of Edwards, Macey, Backley. Saw Edwards outside in a photo op standing on a grass knoll with his medal, with the back drop being the traffic on Calgary trail and a huge IKEA store. While waiting for the plane at Edmonton I recognized Mike Conley sitting across from me. He ended up across the aisle from me in the plane. As we were deplaning he motioned me to go ahead of him and I couldn't resist saying: No, after you Mr. Conley. He gave me a look of what I took to be surprised pleasure at being recognized. Two of the greatest triple jumpers ever in one week, wow. Fans behind me told me two MJ stories. 1. They were sitting in a Restaurant when they noticed MJ sitting at the next table. When he realized he'd been spotted he asked the manager to move him to a booth, far away. 2. One of the guys was a steward on an airplane with MJ aboard. He wrote him a very nice and obsequious note asking him for a signature for a friend of his who was a huge MJ fan. He got his reply when the plane landed ,and MJ turned at the door and threw a paper airplane at him...with his signature on it. On the day of the men's Discus I got to my seat after being over at the men's HJ and found a camera man and his lady boom operator ensconced in my seat, which was right next to the athlete's and coaches area. These seats are taken he told me imperiously in that oh so Germanic way. This is my seat. I said in my best impression of C.J. Hunter (C.J. outweighs me by a mere 40 lbs). The lady boom operator realized that diplomacy was required and started to explain to me that they were filming the middle aged gentleman on the athletes side. I quickly put 2 and 2 together and said: Oh you mean for Lars? She nodded, pleased by my knowledge of Teutonic Disci throwing. I agreed to sit in an, alas too ubiquitous, unoccupied seat, and she gave me a pin as a payoff. The elderly gentleman was Lars Riedel's coach, and he had three cameras on him at one time or another for German TV. As Alekna was leading early, all they got was Sturm und Drang. When Buss cleared 2.36 in the HJ, I politely, if ironically, inquired if they had perhaps had been filming the wrong coach. The Black Forest itself could have been set alight by the looks I got. Then Lars came through and his Coach went well Teutonic, and everybody left happy. IMHO: I don't think Szabo would have won the 5000 anyway. She dropped back before the big kick, and I think she was tired from the 1500 and the heats, as well as the heat and humidity. I had no trouble with Canadian fans being boosterish. They also cheered on anyone they were told to cheer on by John Ridgeon, who diplomatically emphasized Canadian achievements (?). I can't get all excited by the fuss over Yegorova when there are so many athletes out there who have not been caught. e.g. Kederis, (who clearly doesn't have great speed but simply doesn't slow down like the others), Thannou, Pintusevich, who are built like tanks, et al. Most fun: Bahama band! Some fans may have wanted their money back but there were many around them having a ball. I was downtown accidentally during Caribbean fest and got to walk with the band and the crowd for a mile. I lost a few pounds! Phil Wyckoff GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Re: t-and-f: MJ BAD for the sport- JD on the other hand...
Dear Listers, I don't think MJ is bad for the future of the sport, although I do think he should take a few tv commentating classes. For example, in the rounds of the 4x400, Andrew Pierce had no other place to go than on the outside shoulder of the German runner coming down the homestretch, but MJ blasted him for running in lane 2. What was he suppose to do, go through him? Knowledge of the sport has little to do with commentating the sport. Larry A. Morgan, Sr. Elizabeth Heat TC
Re: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
Very true! The men's race began at temperaures of 27 centigrade which hardly dropped during the ensuing 2 hours. The wpmen's race began at 17 and rose to 23. That's a world of difference. UG -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: éåí ùðé 13 àåâåñè 2001 10:26 Subject: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin! Y ask: Brother Phil of Chi-town Trib has penned the obligatory postmortem on how utterly disgusting the USA did in the medals race. That's fine. He has a newshole to fill. But I object to the cheap shot implicit in his statement: That Lidia Simon of Romania ran faster to win the women's marathon Sunday (2 hours, 26 minutes 1 second) than the U.S. leader in the Aug. 3 men's marathon (Josh Cox, 35th, 2:26:52) seemed to sum up the U.S. performance. That's oh-so-cute. But also oh-so-unfair. There was literally a night-and-day difference between the evening start of the men's marathon and the 8 a.m. start of the women's race. A woman running 2:26 in the heat of that first afternoon would have been a god. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
t-and-f: WC mens 4 x 100 thoughts
Don't you get the feeling the world missed a great opprotunity to have someone beat the US in the 4 x 100. I know they won by a large margin but how interesting it have been with Jamaica, Cuba, Great Britian, around the US instead of Japan, Australia etc. 37.9 is not that great of time for WC national teams. Mickey Grimes might be the luckiest sprinter ever to run for the US. Here he is leading off the 4 x 100 final after finishing 6th in the SEMI'S at nationals with a windy 10.25. This has to be the slowest sprinter the US has put on a relay in eons. Just think of all the sprinters who have made the finals during the trials and never got to run the relay. How many injuries had to occur before he got his chance? I guess it also shows how deep the US could go. And of course guys like Gatlin didn't even try. I felt Ato Boldon really ran a strong leg for Trinidad. He clearly beat Bernard Williams. Could Ato concentrate on 200 and win? The only question in the 4 x 100 seems to be if the US can make it around the track. It sure would be nice to see a competition in which crisp passing instead of mediocre safe passing became important to win. Thanks Dennis for all the memories. I always liked the Green Machine. phil weishaar
Re: t-and-f: WC mens 4 x 100 thoughts
After watching Mitchell run great legs this weekend there's no doubt that if the US had gone mitchell to lewis in 96 we would have won the gold. Kebba Tolbert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) = Men's and Women's Jumps Multis Coach Syracuse University Track Field From: Phil Weishaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Phil Weishaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: WC mens 4 x 100 thoughts Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:50:10 -0500 Don't you get the feeling the world missed a great opprotunity to have someone beat the US in the 4 x 100. I know they won by a large margin but how interesting it have been with Jamaica, Cuba, Great Britian, around the US instead of Japan, Australia etc. 37.9 is not that great of time for WC national teams. Mickey Grimes might be the luckiest sprinter ever to run for the US. Here he is leading off the 4 x 100 final after finishing 6th in the SEMI'S at nationals with a windy 10.25. This has to be the slowest sprinter the US has put on a relay in eons. Just think of all the sprinters who have made the finals during the trials and never got to run the relay. How many injuries had to occur before he got his chance? I guess it also shows how deep the US could go. And of course guys like Gatlin didn't even try. I felt Ato Boldon really ran a strong leg for Trinidad. He clearly beat Bernard Williams. Could Ato concentrate on 200 and win? The only question in the 4 x 100 seems to be if the US can make it around the track. It sure would be nice to see a competition in which crisp passing instead of mediocre safe passing became important to win. Thanks Dennis for all the memories. I always liked the Green Machine. phil weishaar _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: MJ BAD for the sport- JD on the other hand...
Actually Larry, while i am not a big MJ fan, in his defense, his comment was the Pierce had run the whole turn on the outside, thus running farther, and said he might run out of gas. I thought it was a very good comment, that the casual fan wouldnt have realized, had Andrew indeed run out of gas. (which he really didnt) It does seem alot of people mis-quote things on this list as for Gabe, his wack job bullsh#t babble is really getting old, and did anyone else notice that the reporter was basically waiting there to talk to him because he knew he would have something wackyto say. the TV people were basically laughing at Gabe afterward Holman ran faster and carried himself with much more class, yet everyone here used to just rip him, there is somethng to be said for the class he carried both on and off the track nick
Re: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
According to the IAAF results book, the men's marathon temperature was 19C, and the women's temp was 25C. I don't believe the listed men's temp, but I can tell you that as the race progressed into the evening, there was considerable shade. I ran shortly after the women's mara ended, and I can tell you it was hot. That Sunday was the hottest day of the meet. Philip Hersh
Re: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
These may have been the recordings made at the very END of these races- even though when the first men finishers entered the stadium it was - in the shade- clearly above 19. I know how wew were dressed. We would have neded more than T- shirts in the media stands at 19 deg. C. Regards, UG -- They began with Temps As in my message (according to curent TV reports). UG According to the IAAF results book, the men's marathon temperature was 19C, and the women's temp was 25C. I don't believe the listed men's temp, but I can tell you that as the race progressed into the evening, there was considerable shade. I ran shortly after the women's mara ended, and I can tell you it was hot. That Sunday was the hottest day of the meet. Philip Hersh
t-and-f: Another hs 400 ?
What did Steve Lewis run in the 400 in high school? Didn't he win the OG when he was 19 in like 43.??? _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Post Edmonton thoughts
In a message dated Mon, 13 Aug 2001 8:08:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Was a hard meet to get up for for some reason .. Didn't seem to have the usual electricity associated with the Worlds I think the WCs have lost luster ever since the IAAF went for the money and doubled the frequency of the meet. The post-Olympic year WC seems to be particularly hard hit, whereas at least the pre-Olympic meet has the anticipation of the impending Games to heighten the excitement. Sorry, but I think switching from quad- to biennial WCs was one of Primo's worse decisions (although I'm sure everyone's the richer for it, so I doubt we'll see a return to the old schedule) I've got a two-word answer to that line of thinking: Houston and Cerritos. As in the nationals of '89 and '90, where the domestic version of the sport, imho, came close to dieing at the top end. The doubling of the Worlds and the concomitant rise of Goodwill as a big-bucks meet meant that every year's nationals was a must-go destination for the nation's top atheltes, instead of just half the years. And I fear that next year's nationals (w/ Goodwill unfortunately moving to this year), with only the single-athlete World Cup as motivation, will once again be kaka. Craig and Co. are going to have to be very creative in making whatever site we get (Stanford still the leading--indeed, ONLY--grapevine candidate) able to host an artistic success. i.e., one w/ a significatn number of the big names. gh
t-and-f: post-Edmonton
Jim Gerweck wrote: I think the WCs have lost luster ever since the IAAF went for the money and doubled the frequency of the meet...I think switching from quad- to biennial WCs was one of Primo's worse decisions (although I'm sure everyone's the richer for it, so I doubt we'll see a return to the old schedule) I understand this argument, but I still think a biennial Worlds is a good thing. As it is, track and field has far too few meaningful events that draw worldwide interest, and as a fan it's almost a little depressing at the end of a World Championships to think that it will be another two years before there's another meet that really counts. Tennis and golf have four major championships every year. Is it really too much for track and field to have three major championships every FOUR years? I'd actually go so far as to suggest that they scrap the European Championships and hold a Worlds in even-numbered years, too. Next year will essentially be a year off from meaningful competition for American and African athletes, and I don't see that as helping the sport. BTW, I like to grouse as much as anyone about U.S. television coverage, but must say that ESPN provided the best coverage I've ever seen on U.S. television. Even the 10Ks received pretty extensive coverage (though I can't fathom why in each race they cut away to show us Larry, Terry(?) and D W I G H T talking for about a minute about the race we were no longer seeing). It was no match for the Triplecast or watching the Atlanta games on BBC, but some credit is due them. Marko Velikonja __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
FW: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
Everyone has their opinion on the effect of the temperature but the altitude (2000') is worth about 1-1/2 minutes (or 3-4 sec per mile). The heat couldn't have been worth more than about 5 minutes overall unless you think Abera was capable of running under the WR on a good day. This still puts the Americans over 2:20 under the best of circumstances. Floyd Highfill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 3:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin! Umm - the men's race might have been at 27 degrees centigrade (about 80 F) - and it might have been at 2,000 feet above sea level - but 2:26+ for our best male finisher is still pretty damned embarrassing. Now, I'm not going to rag on Josh Cox - hell - he finished the race. But when the top three American finishers averaged 2:28 and change, it's not a good day. Anyone have 10K or half-marathon splits on them? Phil Prof. Uri Goldbourt [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] il cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin! [EMAIL PROTECTED] oregon.edu 08/14/01 12:38 PM Please respond to Prof. Uri Goldbourt Very true! The men's race began at temperaures of 27 centigrade which hardly dropped during the ensuing 2 hours. The wpmen's race began at 17 and rose to 23. That's a world of difference. UG -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: éåí ùðé 13 àåâåñè 2001 10:26 Subject: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin! Y ask: Brother Phil of Chi-town Trib has penned the obligatory postmortem on how utterly disgusting the USA did in the medals race. That's fine. He has a newshole to fill. But I object to the cheap shot implicit in his statement: That Lidia Simon of Romania ran faster to win the women's marathon Sunday (2 hours, 26 minutes 1 second) than the U.S. leader in the Aug. 3 men's marathon (Josh Cox, 35th, 2:26:52) seemed to sum up the U.S. performance. That's oh-so-cute. But also oh-so-unfair. There was literally a night-and-day difference between the evening start of the men's marathon and the 8 a.m. start of the women's race. A woman running 2:26 in the heat of that first afternoon would have been a god. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
Re: t-and-f: Post Edmonton thoughts
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I've got a two-word answer to that line of thinking: Houston and Cerritos. As in the nationals of '89 and '90, where the domestic version of the sport, imho, came close to dieing at the top end. And I have a one-word answer to the same line of thinking. Wimbledon.
t-and-f: World's
Major booboo on my last post. I meant end to end 5.09's for the 5000 of course. Last 400 in 54 in the 10,000. Phil Wyckoff GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Re: FW: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
In a message dated Tue, 14 Aug 2001 5:33:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Highfill, Floyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone has their opinion on the effect of the temperature but the altitude (2000') is worth about 1-1/2 minutes (or 3-4 sec per mile). The heat couldn't have been worth more than about 5 minutes overall unless you think Abera was capable of running under the WR on a good day. This still puts the Americans over 2:20 under the best of circumstances. Must have been the altitude (which aids the sprints) which allowed Abera to run the last 300m in 44.7 (a sub-60 pace). gh
RE: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure???
It sounds like he gave that interview specifically to RunnersWorld. He gave another interview that I saw on ABC that included a few other choice bits (and no mention of the SAT or of wiping the field in Athens). I have it on tape, so maybe I'll go through it tonight and see if I can't type up the interview and re-post it here in the morning. Jeff -Original Message- From: Jason Michael Blank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 2:52 PM To: t-and-f Subject: RE: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure??? Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:12:33 -0400 From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure??? I got that quote driectly from the runnersworld.com website I believe. M You're right. Here it is again, copied and pasted from http://www.runnersworld.com/edmonton01/home.html What an idiot. Gabe Jennings, Heat 2: You saw me get everything out of myself that I had out there. If you knew my training, you'd laugh. It's been under 20 miles a week. But it's a thrill to compete on this big stage. This was so much more encouraging than the Olympics. I was not scared. I looked El Guerrouj in the eyes, and I was not scared. I own him. I own all these guys. Give me two years and I'll be wiping them all up off the track. I have a vision of winning at Athens in three years, and the vision starts with conquering all my fears. It's all about fear. I've been fighting that at Stanford. I got into academic trouble this year. I've been fighting fears about my SAT scores and being at Stanford and being a math major. I mean, I can't count to 10...well, maybe I can, but square root of two, what do I know? I've been studying my ass off, but I need more help with my classes than I do with my races. I've got two finals when I get back from here. I haven't been getting any sleep. ___ Jason BlankHopkins Marine Station Enloe HS '92, Duke '96, Stanford ?? Oceanview Boulevard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pacific Grove, CA 93950 He is the Emperor. Ethiopia is a country racked by Aids, famine and war and Gebrselassie is their one true success story. He travels the country, giving out and receiving respect wherever he goes. -- Jos Hermens, on Haile Gebrselassie, Olympic champion at 1m ___
t-and-f: Edwards slams treatment of Yegorova
The Irish Times Tuesday, August 14, 2001 Britain's Jonathan Edwards has attacked the double-standards in athletics which resulted in the persecution of women's 5,000m champion Olga Yegorova, labelled a drug cheat at the World Championships in Canada. The gold medal-winning triple jumper said the Russian, who tested positive for the banned substance EPO but was subsequently 'cleared' on a technicality, was an easy target and he questioned whether the treatment would have been as harsh had it been another nation involved. He even suggested that had it been a British athlete, a campaign would have been launched declaring their innocence. His opinion is in stark contrast to Great Britain women's team captain Paula Radcliffe, who made a very public trackside protest in Edmonton with a banner stating 'EPO cheats out'. But Edwards, in his column in The Times, said: I wonder what the reaction would have been if she was a Canadian or, heaven forbid, a British athlete. Would the poster have then read 'John Smith is innocent?' She (Yegorova) cannot speak English, and is an athletic nobody without powerful allies to lobby on her behalf. But perhaps the real nail in her coffin is her nationality. She has suffered from guilt by association, linked in our minds to the systematic doping by the Soviet Union. The International Association of Athletics Federation allowed the Russian to run in Edmonton after it was discovered her drugs test was not carried out properly, rendering the findings invalid. It prompted a backlash from both competitors and the general public. Yegorova's winning finish in the 5,000m was accompanied by jeers and the athlete immediately departed the track afterwards, shunning a lap of honour. I actually felt sorry for her, added Edwards. I feel she has been harshly and unfairly treated and there has been little dispassionate debate on the issue because nobody wishes to be appear to be giving tacit approval to drug-taking. It goes without saying that this is not what I am doing but the knee-jerk demonisation of the Russian athlete has left a sour taste in my mouth. Whatever our gut feeling, I do not believe we can make an objective judgement on Yegorova's guilt or otherwise. Eamonn Condon www.RunnersGoal.com
t-and-f: Radcliffe fears revenge of drug cheats
The Irish Times Tuesday, August 14, 2001 Paula Radcliffe today said that she could be the victim of a 'drugs sting' following her protest over Olga Yegorova's participation in the World Championships. World Cross Country Champion Radcliffe was incensed after the IAAF allowed Yegorova to compete in the 5,000 metres at Edmonton even though she tested positive for the banned performance-enhancing hormone EPO at a meeting in Paris last month. The IAAF was forced to let the Russian athlete run on a technicality - a ruling that prompted Radcliffe to hold up a placard saying 'EPO CHEATS OUT' during the 5,000m heat. The demonstration of the 27-year-old British women's team captain attracted considerable attention and prompted UK athletics chief David Moorcroft to suggest she could be set up because of her campaign to clean-up the sport. Radcliffe herself also harbours fears that she might be targeted in this way and cited the case of German distance runner Dieter Baumann who was found to have taken nandrolone, even though he was a vigorous anti-drugs campaigner. Baumann claimed his toothpaste had been spiked with the banned substance. If you put your neck on the line and go out on a limb and you rock the boat, then you're taking a risk, said Radcliffe. Obviously it does put me out on a limb a bit but I'm just going to have to be careful and watch my back. It would be a sad day for the sport if something like that did take place. But you have to look at situations like Dieter Baumann's and ask did something happen there? He was very outspoken about the issue in the same way I am. Maybe he was, or maybe he wasn't, but I believe there was a strong case for him being set up. Radcliffe also dismissed today's comments made by Britain's World Championship gold medal-winning triple jumper Jonathan Edwards who asked the question had the EPO cheats been British, would Paula's protest had been quite so vociferous. In response to Jonathan, had Olga been a British athlete, I would have gone about it in the same way. Jonathan was not having a go at me, he was just making his point. My point is that there was no element of doubt - it was only a technicality on which Olga Yegorova had been cleared. EPO is not a substance that can get into the body naturally, even she isn't arguing about that. Jonathan accepts that everybody is entitled to their opinion - if Jonathan feels strongly about something he'll stand up and say it. My point is not with Yegorova herself. She made the decision herself and I might not agree with her for doing it but she should not have been able to compete. Everybody should be on a level playing field. Had it been a British athlete I would have done exactly the same. It had nothing to do with whether it was a Russian athlete or someone from any other country, the point is you're abiding by the laws of the sport. Radcliffe, who came fourth in the 10,000m final at Edmonton, insisted that she had no regrets over her actions in Canada and revealed that she would remain outspoken on the issue. I felt I had to make a stand so that I could live with myself as much as anything else. If I had views and sat back without doing anything about them, then it would be like I was accepting the situation. I do feel passionately about this. Athletics is a great sport and a pure sport. It's about getting to the line first, who throws furthest and who jumps furthest. It's not about using artificial aid to get there. The sport is predominantly clean - drug taking is not rife. Athletes should stand up and say 'Look it's our sport and we're not going to let it be ridiculed'. Eamonn Condon www.RunnersGoal.com
Re: t-and-f: Post Edmonton thoughts
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I've got a two-word answer to that line of thinking: Houston and Cerritos. As in the nationals of '89 and '90, where the domestic version of the sport, imho, came close to dieing at the top end. And I have a one-word answer to the same line of thinking. Wimbledon. Absolutely. If you pay five figures as far down as 16th place in every event. And add a century long tradition of being the most prestigious meet in the world. And make it one of the four meets in the year that everyone considers a major. And we need to let everyone compete, not just U.S. athletes. My point is that Wimbledon is far different than USATF nationals and there is no immediate hope on the horizon that the money will be available for it to become more like Wimbledon. It's not that we can't learn from the way tennis (and golf) do things. But the money has to come from somewhere. - Ed Parrot
t-and-f: Edwards and double standards
Britain's Jonathan Edwards has attacked the double-standards in athletics which resulted in the persecution of women's 5,000m champion Olga Yegorova, labelled a drug cheat at the World Championships in Canada. Strikes me as a bit rich for Jonathan Edwards to be talking about double standards. This is the touchy-feely, ever smiling (except when he loses) christian athlete who retains Andy Norman as his agent. For those of you who don't know Norman is the man who rang journalist and coach Cliff Temple, a much liked man in the athletics world, and said he would accuse Temple of sexual harrassment of the women Temple coached. Temple, who had other problems, later took his own life and a coroner's jury said Norman's phone call, which Temple taped, had tipped him over the edge. Norman lost his job as British athletics promotions officer because of this and other things I promised the tribunal who decided his fate not to reveal. But Edwards kept him on as his agent. Seems there's turning the other cheek as long as someone keeps pulling in the checks. Randall Northam
RE: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure???
I watched the Gabe interview as well and I don't remember some of the things that you describe. Although I did watch the ABC interview and perhaps he gave another to CBC perhaps? Actually Gabe is a linguistic treasure - he speaks pure unadulterated Incoherent Hippie circa 1968, a dialect that has not been heard since its last native speaker died of a drug overdose about 25 years ago. Imagine what it would mean to Classicists and other scholars of the Latin language if Cicero himself suddenly appeared in in their midst. That's what has now happened to people who study the culture of the 1960s. Linguists, historians, and other scholars of that period should be lined up outside Gabe's dorm room to record his speech, ask him questions, and request his help in translating baffling Hippie quotes from the past. An opportunity is being missed here. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: re: Edwards thoughts on Yegorova
So, for them to clear her in a matter of days leads me to believe that she either wasn't guilty or that there were serious problems with the testing protocol. Someone correct me if they know differently, but there WAS a problem with the testing protocol - they didn't do a blood test. The IAAF procedure is to do a blood test first, which can detect EPO usage up to 4-6 weeks prior, followed by a follow-up urine test. The blood test is considered to have a small possibility of false positives, so a positive blood test is followed by the EPO urine test, which is considered reliable but can only test for usage in the pas few days. The two positive tests together constitute a legally defensible test. Anything else (like Yegorova's test) is apparently not. So there was no grey area unless the IAAF wanted to ignore they own rules (which they've done before). The real errors were the French not doing a blood test and the IAAF publicizing the positive urine test before looking further into the matter. Now here's where it is sticky. The urine test is pretty much considered reliable on its own. It just usually can't pick up EPO more than a few days prior. I wondered why they didn't just go with the urine test rather than the combination but perhaps they wanted to get people used to the idea of blood testing since that will be necessary for the next advancements in drug testing. The way they did it just makes everyone doubt more about the process. But the fact is that she tested positive using the most reliable test. And word was going around Edmonton that she was one of a number of athletes who failed the initial blood test in Edmonton but subsequently passed the urine test. I never heard official confirmation of this and really we shouldn't have heard anything about those initial blood tests since they constitute nothing by themselves. But really it appears that Yegorova was let off on a real technicality. They had to let her off, and it should never have been made public in the first place, but given the specifics of the technicality there should be little doubt in our minds that she would have been banned if the French had done the blood test. It is unfortunate for her, the sport, and everyone involved that the IAAF botched this so badly. As I said before, this is a textbook example of why the U.S. waits until adjudication is complete before releasing names of failed testees. The only saving grace is that the efforts to get the single, reliable EPO test approved will certainly be at the forefront. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote: Jon, I don't understand where you are getting these numbers from... each time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is the 800m evidence you cite? my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time produces this list of non-africans 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe 11 1.42,33Sebastian Coe 18 1.42,58Vebjørn Rodal 39 1.42,88Steve Cram 40 1.42,90André Bucher 42 1.42,92André Bucher 43 1.42,95Vebjørn Rodal 45 1.42,97Peter Elliott 54 1.43,07Sebastian Coe 60 1.43,12André Bucher 64 1.43,17Yuriy Borzakovskiy 67 1.43,19Steve Cram 72 1.43,22Steve Cram 75 1.43,25Vebjørn Rodal 84 1.43,31André Bucher 91 1.43,34André Bucher 98 1.43,38Sebastian Coe 98 1.43,38Rich Kenah http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm That's 18, not 8! And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have a couple wrong here through not knowing who/what they are/were (ugly terminology, but we are playing this game)): 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram 13 1.42.90 André Bucher 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha 63 1.43.92 John Marshall 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe 72 1.43.98 Bram Som 73 1.43.9h José Marajo 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm That's 38... Please explain your sources... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete, particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South America. Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes to the top. Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those so-called great times of years ago pale in comparison RELATIVE to the population numbers AND overall. In the 800 metres, for instance, 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry. Was Coe a great runner. Of course. And we will always have great runners. But he was no where near the consistent level of a Kipketer or Cruz. ... *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure???
Kurt, clearly you've never been to Eugene, which is living in a time-warp. malmo Actually Gabe is a linguistic treasure - he speaks pure unadulterated Incoherent Hippie circa 1968, a dialect that has not been heard since its last native speaker died of a drug overdose about 25 years ago. Imagine what it would mean to Classicists and other scholars of the Latin language if Cicero himself suddenly appeared in in their midst. That's what has now happened to people who study the culture of the 1960s. Linguists, historians, and other scholars of that period should be lined up outside Gabe's dorm room to record his speech, ask him questions, and request his help in translating baffling Hippie quotes from the past. An opportunity is being missed here. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
but the statement that 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry is still wrong... it can only be 82... it's just poor data collection undermining what are substantive claims... for what it's worth my view here is that the discussion is about probabilities... Entine is probably correct in that the probability of a given East African being capable of world class middle to long-distance performances is higher than a non-East African, and likewise that the probability of a West African being capable of world class sprint performances is higher than a non-West African... but it's only probabilities... the beauty of the stochastic nature of the process is that there are always freaks who mess with the numbers... so maybe it becomes an issue of freak frequency (almost went for the pun there)... and then there's hard work, training, opportunity, environment, discrimination, resources etc... uh-oh, we're back on this train again! why do we get sucked in? At 10:15 AM 8/15/2001, P.F.Talbot wrote: So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote: Jon, I don't understand where you are getting these numbers from... each time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is the 800m evidence you cite? my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time produces this list of non-africans 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe 11 1.42,33Sebastian Coe 18 1.42,58Vebjørn Rodal 39 1.42,88Steve Cram 40 1.42,90André Bucher 42 1.42,92André Bucher 43 1.42,95Vebjørn Rodal 45 1.42,97Peter Elliott 54 1.43,07Sebastian Coe 60 1.43,12André Bucher 64 1.43,17Yuriy Borzakovskiy 67 1.43,19Steve Cram 72 1.43,22Steve Cram 75 1.43,25Vebjørn Rodal 84 1.43,31André Bucher 91 1.43,34André Bucher 98 1.43,38Sebastian Coe 98 1.43,38Rich Kenah http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm That's 18, not 8! And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have a couple wrong here through not knowing who/what they are/were (ugly terminology, but we are playing this game)): 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram 13 1.42.90 André Bucher 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha 63 1.43.92 John Marshall 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe 72 1.43.98 Bram Som 73 1.43.9h José Marajo 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm That's 38... Please explain your sources... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete, particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South America. Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes to the top. Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those so-called great times of years ago pale in comparison RELATIVE to the population numbers AND overall. In the 800 metres, for instance, 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry. Was Coe a great runner. Of course. And we will always have great runners. But he was no where near the consistent level of a Kipketer or Cruz. ... *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado,
Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). It's hard to categorize anyone from the West Indies or Central America unless you know their specific origin. But assuming Juantorena is the 8th, it still is not accurate to say, as Entine did, that 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry. You could say 18 of the top 100 times, 38 of the top 100 performers, or 8 of the individuals who account for the top 100 times. To state the latter would be the worst kind of misuse of statistics unless you said 8 of the x number of individuals who account for the top 100 times (is it 35 or so individuals?) As I have said before, I don't think his science is particularly flawed, but I don't think it is important either. and he makes himself a laughingstock by constantly using the Kipketer quote and 800m times to prove his points about distance running. He could certainly find equally compelling evidence by using the 5000m or 1m list, couldn't he? And saying Coe is nowhere the consistent level of Cruz or Kipketer is just funny. It's like saying Jesse Owens was not as consistent as Mo Greene because his times aren't as fast. And if he chose to race less often than others, that doesn't make him a less consistent runner - maybe less prolific. Only one person even came close to that 800m mark for over a decade despite the best efforts of the best runners. And no one has come close since the season when Kipketer did it. I mean, a longstanding world record, Olympic titles, rarely losing for 5+ years, what the hell more could he have done except tried to run 1:42 every week! - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Radcliffe fears revenge of drug cheats
In a message dated Tue, 14 Aug 2001 7:05:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Eamonn Condon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Irish Times Tuesday, August 14, 2001 Radcliffe herself also harbours fears that she might be targeted in this way and cited the case of German distance runner Dieter Baumann who was found to have taken nandrolone, even though he was a vigorous anti-drugs campaigner. Baumann claimed his toothpaste had been spiked with the banned substance. If you put your neck on the line and go out on a limb and you rock the boat, then you're taking a risk, said Radcliffe. Obviously it does put me out on a limb a bit but I'm just going to have to be careful and watch my back. I wish I kept up better on modern conspiracy. I forget who it was that targetted Baumann. Was it the Illuminati or was it the CIA black-helicoptor gang? This is great stuff: we're now supposed to believe that there's a pro-drugs secret society that's so powerful that it rigs false tests for people who speak out against drug abuse? Too bad Robert Ludlum is dead; he could have had a field day with this one. gh
RE: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
Cruz mostly African ancestry? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Andre Sammartino Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:32 PM To: P.F.Talbot Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws but the statement that 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry is still wrong... it can only be 82... it's just poor data collection undermining what are substantive claims... for what it's worth my view here is that the discussion is about probabilities... Entine is probably correct in that the probability of a given East African being capable of world class middle to long-distance performances is higher than a non-East African, and likewise that the probability of a West African being capable of world class sprint performances is higher than a non-West African... but it's only probabilities... the beauty of the stochastic nature of the process is that there are always freaks who mess with the numbers... so maybe it becomes an issue of freak frequency (almost went for the pun there)... and then there's hard work, training, opportunity, environment, discrimination, resources etc... uh-oh, we're back on this train again! why do we get sucked in? At 10:15 AM 8/15/2001, P.F.Talbot wrote: So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote: Jon, I don't understand where you are getting these numbers from... each time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is the 800m evidence you cite? my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time produces this list of non-africans 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe 11 1.42,33Sebastian Coe 18 1.42,58Vebjørn Rodal 39 1.42,88Steve Cram 40 1.42,90André Bucher 42 1.42,92André Bucher 43 1.42,95Vebjørn Rodal 45 1.42,97Peter Elliott 54 1.43,07Sebastian Coe 60 1.43,12André Bucher 64 1.43,17Yuriy Borzakovskiy 67 1.43,19Steve Cram 72 1.43,22Steve Cram 75 1.43,25Vebjørn Rodal 84 1.43,31André Bucher 91 1.43,34André Bucher 98 1.43,38Sebastian Coe 98 1.43,38Rich Kenah http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm That's 18, not 8! And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have a couple wrong here through not knowing who/what they are/were (ugly terminology, but we are playing this game)): 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram 13 1.42.90 André Bucher 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha 63 1.43.92 John Marshall 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe 72 1.43.98 Bram Som 73 1.43.9h José Marajo 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm That's 38... Please explain your sources... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete, particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South America. Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes to the top. Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those so-called great times of years ago pale
t-and-f: saving myself for Zurich
In a message dated 8/13/01 5:20:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ah yes, Zurich...the Swiss stud that 38-year-old Regina Jacobs has been saving herself for...:-) Why do you still connect Jacobs to this quote, when it has been stated many times on this list that it was uttered by Suzy Favor-Hamilton? Walt Murphy
RE: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
i have tried to remove as many folks as possible from the lists in a similar straw-clutching fashion as Jon... At 11:09 AM 8/15/2001, malmo wrote: Cruz mostly African ancestry? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Andre Sammartino Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:32 PM To: P.F.Talbot Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws but the statement that 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry is still wrong... it can only be 82... it's just poor data collection undermining what are substantive claims... for what it's worth my view here is that the discussion is about probabilities... Entine is probably correct in that the probability of a given East African being capable of world class middle to long-distance performances is higher than a non-East African, and likewise that the probability of a West African being capable of world class sprint performances is higher than a non-West African... but it's only probabilities... the beauty of the stochastic nature of the process is that there are always freaks who mess with the numbers... so maybe it becomes an issue of freak frequency (almost went for the pun there)... and then there's hard work, training, opportunity, environment, discrimination, resources etc... uh-oh, we're back on this train again! why do we get sucked in? At 10:15 AM 8/15/2001, P.F.Talbot wrote: So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote: Jon, I don't understand where you are getting these numbers from... each time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is the 800m evidence you cite? my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time produces this list of non-africans 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe 11 1.42,33Sebastian Coe 18 1.42,58Vebjørn Rodal 39 1.42,88Steve Cram 40 1.42,90André Bucher 42 1.42,92André Bucher 43 1.42,95Vebjørn Rodal 45 1.42,97Peter Elliott 54 1.43,07Sebastian Coe 60 1.43,12André Bucher 64 1.43,17Yuriy Borzakovskiy 67 1.43,19Steve Cram 72 1.43,22Steve Cram 75 1.43,25Vebjørn Rodal 84 1.43,31André Bucher 91 1.43,34André Bucher 98 1.43,38Sebastian Coe 98 1.43,38Rich Kenah http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm That's 18, not 8! And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have a couple wrong here through not knowing who/what they are/were (ugly terminology, but we are playing this game)): 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram 13 1.42.90 André Bucher 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha 63 1.43.92 John Marshall 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe 72 1.43.98 Bram Som 73 1.43.9h José Marajo 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm That's 38... Please explain your sources... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete,
t-and-f: MJ and announcers
I find this thread very interesting given the article Eammon posted last week stating how the BBC thought MJ was the greatest announcer going and was hoping the BBC could somehow hire him for Paris and Athens. Personally I wish you guys could hear Steve Ovett. He would go over so big in American, of course he might piss off half the people but what a wit and sense of humor. Of course this brings up another point. After watching Australia TV, it occured to me the problem with American TV is the simple idea of announcers. That is announcers who because of things like careers etc, HAVE to have their face on TV all the time. I don't watch track to SEE Carol Lewis let alone listen to her. It seems in Australia, announcers are quietly heard but not seen. Makes for a whole new outlook on things. phil weishaar
t-and-f: Trackopalypse Now (was Jabe's exact quote... Are you sure???)
I dunno, was it just me, or did anyone else think Jabe's interview seemed eerily like Dennis Hopper's character in Apocalypse Now? (The director's cut has been released to the theaters if you want to check it out). Jim Gerweck Running Times
t-and-f: Women's marathon in the stadium
As disappointed and angry as I was on the first day to see almost nothing of the men's marathon until about 40K, I was ecstatic about the experience of seeing every second of the women's race on the big screens in the stadium Sunday morning. The commentary by Bob Hersh was excellent, both in information content (they had chips in their shoes that recorded their splits at each 5K point) and informed speculation on what might transpire with Dita. They kept showing the list of competitors on the middle screen, switching pages every so often, so that after a while we recognized most of the contenders. The other screens showed the action, with splits and standings every 5K. They also had updates on how far Dita was ahead of the chase group. This is the way to see a marathon! I have several pages of notes on who dropped out the the chase group when, who looked fresher or more labored, etc. I was in hog heaven Thanks, Edmonton and Bob. Cheers, Alan Shank
Re: t-and-f: Post Edmonton thoughts
In a message dated 8/14/01 5:06:54 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The doubling of the Worlds and the concomitant rise of Goodwill as a big-bucks meet meant that every year's nationals was a must-go destination for the nation's top athletes, instead of just half the years. So the USATF tail wagged the IAAF dog, saying, If you don't increase the frequency of big meets for our athletes to qualify for, our nationals are going to die off? And Primo Co owed Ollan a favor, and saw a way to make some bucks on the side at the same time, so doubled the fun? Maybe. Jeez, do the rest of the nations of the world have the same problem getting their top athletes to compete? Seems TF is in a pretty sorry state in that case - I don't see much diminution in competitiveness among Euro and Latin soccer (football) players in non- World Cup years. Jim Gerweck Running Times
RE: t-and-f: re: Edwards thoughts on Yegorova
The quickness with which Yegorova was reinstated by IAAF may be partially due to the fact that as IAAF admitted before, 10 (or was it 11?) athletes tested positive for EPO in Sydney (but failed only one of the two required urine/blood test combo, therefore not considered guilty). Russian officials may have threatened that in case she is not reinstated immediately, they demand similar suspensions for the Sydney athletes, as well as 10 who had positive blood tests in Edmonton - who with exception of one athlete who remains unnamed, won't be suspended because urine tests came back negative (this includes Yegorova). Makes me wonder if russians could have made the point about procedures not being followed properly solely on the basis of Yegorova's name being released before her B-sample was tested (which technicians had problems with anyways - they couldn't make positive/negative judgement due to some unknown difficulties, but then the IAAF reinstatement decision came through, so the whole B-sample issue became moot anyways). On more personal note, I was reading russian newspapers following Yegorova's Paris test announcement, and I was somewhat surprised how confident team leaders sounded in interviews from day one - that Yegorova *will* go to Edmonton, plead her case, and will eventually compete. Almost as if it was a done deal. It's also quite amusing how spin machines can turn the same story either way - post-championships articles in russian papers reported that Yegorova was wrongfully accused due to serious testing procedure violations, IAAF admitted the mistake and immediately reinstated her and that Yegorova proved her innocence once again testing negative in Edmonton, but jealous romanian Szabo kept spreading rumors and even threatend a boycott. In the final Yegorova did the talking with her legs, while Szabo wasn't even fast enough to be close enough to see the heels of Yegorova's feet when she took off in blistering finish (as close as I can be with translation while it still kinda makes sense in English). The article is titled Despite Everything and as you could guess has a completely different angle from the ones from Western press. There are a few new articles, one on Szabo - where her quotes about russian robots sound pretty ridiculous in russian translation. Another on Jonathan Edwards' comments condemning campaign to destroy Yegorova and Radcliffe's inconsistency of believing that Baumann was innocent and framed. And believe it or not, judging by the readers' reponses, Yegorova is sort of a national hero there right now. And don't shoot the messenger - I am just reporting it as it is. Oleg. P.S. Does anyone else find it ironic that EPO - Go, Go, Go! - as catchy as it is - can be interpreted both ways? :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ed Dana Parrot Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: re: Edwards thoughts on Yegorova So, for them to clear her in a matter of days leads me to believe that she either wasn't guilty or that there were serious problems with the testing protocol. Someone correct me if they know differently, but there WAS a problem with the testing protocol - they didn't do a blood test. The IAAF procedure is to do a blood test first, which can detect EPO usage up to 4-6 weeks prior, followed by a follow-up urine test. The blood test is considered to have a small possibility of false positives, so a positive blood test is followed by the EPO urine test, which is considered reliable but can only test for usage in the pas few days. The two positive tests together constitute a legally defensible test. Anything else (like Yegorova's test) is apparently not. So there was no grey area unless the IAAF wanted to ignore they own rules (which they've done before). The real errors were the French not doing a blood test and the IAAF publicizing the positive urine test before looking further into the matter. Now here's where it is sticky. The urine test is pretty much considered reliable on its own. It just usually can't pick up EPO more than a few days prior. I wondered why they didn't just go with the urine test rather than the combination but perhaps they wanted to get people used to the idea of blood testing since that will be necessary for the next advancements in drug testing. The way they did it just makes everyone doubt more about the process. But the fact is that she tested positive using the most reliable test. And word was going around Edmonton that she was one of a number of athletes who failed the initial blood test in Edmonton but subsequently passed the urine test. I never heard official confirmation of this and really we shouldn't have heard anything about those initial blood tests since they constitute nothing by themselves. But really it appears that Yegorova was let off on a real technicality. They had to let her off, and it should never have
Re: t-and-f: track and TV
How much are the problems with track and field on TV related to the announcers gearing broadcasts to those who have never witnessed a track meet? Has anybody ever seen a 400IH race on TV without the announcer explaining in slow deliberate tones that even on the turn you can tell who's leading by who gets over the barrier first? Or a 5,000 without the announcer explaining how fast the runners are moving with the crusty go down to your local high school track and try running a lap in 64 seconds. Now imagine doing that 12 1/2 TIMES IN A ROW adage. Etc. Seems to me the people who are watching understand the basics of the sport. Can you imagine a baseball announcer explaining in painful detail what a bunt is every time somebody sacrifices? Or a football announcer going into terrible condescending detail about how the quarterback's job is to THROW the football to the RECEIVERS, whose job is to CATCH it? If we could ever get some more advanced analysis, I think the broadcasts would be a lot more watchable. Roob __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
t-and-f: signup and signoff
Would the adminstrator for this time period please email me with the instructions to signoff this list (and sign on). I am changing internet providers and need to sign off one and on to another. Thank you in advance. please respond offlist at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Radio anyone?
One of the highlights of the recent Championships for me was listening to the BBC radio broadcast from Edmonton. The down-time between the action that is normally a TV broadcasters nightmare actually works to the advantage of the radio announcer, allowing time to set the scene and build anticipation before each event followed by intelligent in-depth discussion afterwards. With all the difficulties TF is having with the TV format, radio would seem to be a perfect fit, yet I am not aware of any radio broadcasts of track events in the US. Small market perhaps, but a loyal one I would imagine. Any radio (or internet radio) entrepreneur ready to seize the opportunity? Eamonn Condon www.RunnersGoal.com
t-and-f: British glory days over, says Radcliffe
The Electronic Telegraph Wednesday 15 August 2001 Richard Bright DISTANCE runner Paula Radcliffe admits British athletes failed to deliver at the World Championships in Edmonton. And she feels stronger competition meant Britain would never be able to emulate their track and field success of previous years. Radcliffe finished fourth in the 10,000 metres at the championships. The 27-year-old readily admitted Britain failed to live up to expectations, but said there were explanations. Obviously it was a disappointing performance by the British team, said Radcliffe, who will run in the 3,000m at the Norwich Union Classic at Gateshead on Sunday. Everybody tried as hard as they could but the difficulty might be that there are more and more countries taking part each year. It is a proper World Championships - it's one of the only sports when every country can take part and win medals. We're never going to be able to win the number of medals that we have done in the past because the competition is that much stronger. Another factor was that athletes no longer got a rest year. You do need that year off, mentally as well as physically. It is only 10 months since the Sydney Olympics. In the past, when the World Championships were only every four years, we did get the rest year. The Americans do get a rest year as they don't have the European Championships and the Commonwealth Games. Culture secretary Tessa Jowell said athletics needed to look at the development of young athletes after Britain's disappointing showing. Jowell, who congratulated Dean Macey and Jonathan Edwards, Britain's only medallists said: Nobody believes the team didn't run, jump and compete their hearts out but I do believe we need to take a long hard look at British athletics. Eamonn Condon www.RunnersGoal.com
Re: t-and-f: World's
Philip J Wyckoff wrote: Excellent post. Felt almost like I was back in Edmonton. I was sitting two sections toward the pole vault pit while the men's pole vault was being contested. I'm not so sure that all the competitors shared your enthusiasm of the Bahaman band. At times, I'm sure that several of the competitors would have loved to have shoved those tubas someplace best left unmentioned. Since the band would break out playing for the track races, the timing for attempts in the pole vault sometimes left me shaking my head, and a swede in front of me shaking his fist at the band, (as well as a few unkind words thrown in as well). The only runway time limit foul was given when one competitor that tried 3 times unsuccessfully to compete his vault, before giving up. During his entire attempt the band was beating and honking away. Being an American, I'm only glad that the bronze medalist was lucky enough to escape on most of his attempts, while the band was not playing. (I did notice, however, that he did fail on his three final attempts while the band was playing.) ??? One of the group of Ethiopian crowd was hauled away by security for blowing a horn the night or two before during the heats of the women's 200. Apparently the noise was distracting to the starters in the race. It seems like this should have been enforced for the men's vault as well. Don't get me wrong, I liked the music, and the idea. I felt that the timing was a bit off for the field event underway. On the other hand, I felt that the drums that were used by the Edmonton drum corps was done quite well being amplified through the main speaker lofted above the middle of the stadium at a bit more hushed level. I also remember seeing those around the band dancing and having a great time. Personally, I'd rather enjoy what I went to Edmonton to watch, track and field. I had plenty of opportunity to go to Kinsman Park to watch the bands following the meet. Even with my difference of opinion, I still enjoyed your post. Bill Brist Most fun: Bahama band! Some fans may have wanted their money back but there were many around them having a ball. I was downtown accidentally during Caribbean fest and got to walk with the band and the crowd for a mile. I lost a few pounds! Phil Wyckoff GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
t-and-f: Ovett and his brethren
Not to take anything away from the natural wit of Steve Ovett (the one who broke the story about El G's piles several years ago, by the way), the pair that sent me howling with laughter continually were Hutchings and Cram when they were paired on Eurosport. Sadly, the beeb has broken up that pair by hiring Steve [Cram] away, but it's almost as funny listening to one of them speaking to the other on a mobile phone and only hearing half the conversation. In chatting with Ovett at the Edmonton airport on Monday afternoon, I was reminded how he gets much of his material: He lives in Scotland. You've got to have a sense of humo(u)r to get through those winters.
