t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong
Malmo mentions the need for 1,000 hardass sonofabitches who don't fear failure. The great USA runners of the past (and the current runners from countries that have lots of competitive racers) ran not fearlessly but out of tremendous fear of the other guys behind them. Each guy had a set of guys who would finish behind but within sight. Those guys behind haunted the first order of guys with the unspeakable indignity of being passed in a race. The possibility that one of those untouchables would beat runners like Rodgers, Thomas, Shorter, Salazar, Meyer,Flemming,Durden, and Malley drove them to complete every interval in a workout they set out to complete because the demons just behind might do the entire workout or get in more miles that week or that month and sail by in the next race and be standing at the finish line with a shit-eat grin reaching to shake hands and say, good race. They (and any honest competitors) could not let that happen. That's what I was always trying to do to those guys (and lots of others) and other guys were trying to do to me so I didn't dare miss a workout either. That is the driving effect of a thickness of competition. So I wonder, who is Josh Cox afraid of? Don't look back...somebody might be gaining on you... Tom Derderian
t-and-f: Re: On Pfitz...
At 04:54 PM 11/7/2001 -0800, t-and-f-digest wrote.. Most of our guys do not have a coach with experience at that level (if they have a coach at all), and they end up going to the Olympics less than optimally prepared. I also fell in that category, and although i finished first of the 3 guys both times (11th in 84 and 14th in 88), neither Olympic performance was up to my trials races due to erors in preparation. Looking back at the other guys in 84, there wasn't much that could help Albeto in such a short time frame, but John Tuttle could have used some good advice (he was injured and getting minimal assistance). In 88, Mark and Ed both could have been top 10 with optimal preparation. Cheers, Pete Kempanien had a coach whom we would consider whom we would consider among the best in the game, Vin Lannana. (And I'm sure I've butchered the spelling of both of their names, but you know who I'm talking about...) Yet, his performances in 92 and 96 were nothing to write home about. Richard McCann
Re: t-and-f: Hard-working marathoner: Josh Cox
At 04:54 PM 11/7/2001 -0800, t-and-f-digest wrote.. Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 16:01:55 -0500 From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Hard-working marathoner: Josh Cox Ken, No disrespect to a hard working marathoner, but I'm surprised you were so impressed with that. 5x2000 at 4:40 pace and 8x400 in 60-62 is not that much different than what I see a lot of college guys do. It takes a lot more than that to impress me. M 5 x 2000 at 10k pace with a minute jog is really beyond all but the most elite collegiate athletes. Tag on 8 x 400 / rest? at 61, and I doubt many could do that. Certainly, I did not see ANY collegians in the early 80s who could do that, and I was training with Brian Diemer, Gerry Donakowski and Chris Brewster for two years, all of whom were either NCAA or TAC champs soon within a year. I am a bit surprised at the intensity this far out, but I think one thing that coaches and athletes fail to note about the traditional Lydiard buildup is that the original training program was set up in a very hilly region. They would run at a strong steady pace, but the addition of the hills really effectively turned the runs into fartlek training. I coach a recreational club in Davis, which is perhaps the flattest place in the US. The highest point in town is a freeway overpass, and the only natural hill is a 20 ft rise built in the middle of a cemetery. Because I think the fartlek aspect of base building is so important, I have introduced tempo and 10k paced repetitions into that period to increase the training level. If I was in the Bay Area, I would just send the club out for a one-hour hard run in the Berkeley Hills or Marin Headlands. I'd probably get the same results. I also think that hill training in any form is extremely important. I went to Mammoth Lakes last summer for vacation. (That's where the USA Running group has a camp, only coincidentally). I was forced to stop training for about 4 weeks for a variety of reasons earlier in the summer. I had been back running for about 2 weeks when we went up there. I had done no hard training whatsoever and was in terrible shape. I went for several hour plus runs climbing from 9000 feet, always working pretty hard on the uphill trails. When I came back, I was suddenly in the best shape I had been in for at least 2 years! I was able to keep running hill repetitions at least once a week for several more weeks and of course my conditioning improved even further. I was racing quite well when a recent Achilles injury flared up. If you've got the hills around you, use them as much as possible in your training regime. Richard McCann
Re: t-and-f: Re: On Pfitz...
At 04:54 PM 11/7/2001 -0800, t-and-f-digest wrote.. Most of our guys do not have a coach with experience at that level (if they have a coach at all), and they end up going to the Olympics less than optimally prepared. I also fell in that category, and although i finished first of the 3 guys both times (11th in 84 and 14th in 88), neither Olympic performance was up to my trials races due to erors in preparation. Looking back at the other guys in 84, there wasn't much that could help Albeto in such a short time frame, but John Tuttle could have used some good advice (he was injured and getting minimal assistance). In 88, Mark and Ed both could have been top 10 with optimal preparation. On the one hand, I think Pfitz may be right that many of our promising marathoners are lacking good coaching. On the other hand, I have yet to be convinced that experience at that level is a pre-requisite for a successful Olympic coach. A some point, a coach has to get the experience by coaching someone at that level, so there will always be athletes coached by coaches without experience at the highest level - otherwise we'd never have any new coaches gaining the experience! I also have to say that I don't recall much evidence to suggest that Pftizinger or Conover could have placed top ten in Seoul - maybe if they'd taken it to the next level beyond the trials, but not based on what they had done in the year before the Games. Eyestone possibly could have done so, but I don't think he quite had the talent of the top guys, nor did he yet have the experience to help make up for that. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong
From: Robert Hersh Message text written by Thomas J. Derderian So I wonder, who is Josh Cox afraid of? He, and all the other Americans today, should be afraid of the Kenyans, Ethiopians, North Africans, Japanese, Mexicans, etc.They are losing marathons, and losing them badly. If they needed to find people to be afraid of, they'd find plenty of them. Ok, right, but my thesis is that athletes are most motivated to beat or keep from being beaten by proximate people...the ones they know and see regularly rather than distant, albeit, worthy seldom seen or unpredictably encountered athletes from the other side of the world. Although they should be motivated to beat the best. Tom Derderian
Re: t-and-f: US sprinting
In a message dated 01-11-08 09:56:58 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK... eveyone is on the marathin kick (most so, probably me), but I was thinking about US sprinting as well. What's going on with our guys in the 200 and 400? Is there anyone in the US who is going to step into MJ's spot as the number one 200/400 man? Was Capel our best option? Is he coming back to the track? Are we going to dominate those two events going forward? And if so... who is going to lead the charge? My favorite- Jerome Young. Jerome Young is done! He hasn't done much of anything in the past three or four years. If Tyree Washington can stay healthy, he's my #1 choice for the MJ 400m successor. The Harrison twins and Angelo Taylor also have potential to dominate the 400m. As for the 200m, it's wide open. Capel is a prospect, but also are Mo' Greene, Bernard Williams, and newcomer J.J. Johnson. Larry A. Morgan Elizabeth Heat TC
RE: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong
Speaking for myself, my eyes are located on the anterior/cranial surface, not the posterior/cranial as suggested by marathon historian Derderian. Not only does this limit my vision to a forward direction anatomically speaking, it also does so metaphorically. Thousands of references to that fact available upon request. malmo Is it true cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny? - Steve Wright -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Thomas J. Derderian Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 3:15 PM To: Geoff Pietsch; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong Malmo mentions the need for 1,000 hardass sonofabitches who don't fear failure. The great USA runners of the past (and the current runners from countries that have lots of competitive racers) ran not fearlessly but out of tremendous fear of the other guys behind them. Each guy had a set of guys who would finish behind but within sight. Those guys behind haunted the first order of guys with the unspeakable indignity of being passed in a race. The possibility that one of those untouchables would beat runners like Rodgers, Thomas, Shorter, Salazar, Meyer,Flemming,Durden, and Malley drove them to complete every interval in a workout they set out to complete because the demons just behind might do the entire workout or get in more miles that week or that month and sail by in the next race and be standing at the finish line with a shit-eat grin reaching to shake hands and say, good race. They (and any honest competitors) could not let that happen. That's what I was always trying to do to those guys (and lots of others) and other guys were trying to do to me so I didn't dare miss a workout either. That is the driving effect of a thickness of competition. So I wonder, who is Josh Cox afraid of? Don't look back...somebody might be gaining on you... Tom Derderian
RE: t-and-f: Hard-working marathoner: Josh Cox...all sussed out
Me thinks you wouldn't know embellishment if it bit you on the leg. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard McCann Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:57 PM To: TFMail List Cc: Michael Contopoulos Subject: Re: t-and-f: Hard-working marathoner: Josh Cox At 04:54 PM 11/7/2001 -0800, t-and-f-digest wrote.. Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 16:01:55 -0500 From: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Hard-working marathoner: Josh Cox Ken, No disrespect to a hard working marathoner, but I'm surprised you were so impressed with that. 5x2000 at 4:40 pace and 8x400 in 60-62 is not that much different than what I see a lot of college guys do. It takes a lot more than that to impress me. M 5 x 2000 at 10k pace with a minute jog is really beyond all but the most elite collegiate athletes. Tag on 8 x 400 / rest? at 61, and I doubt many could do that. Certainly, I did not see ANY collegians in the early 80s who could do that, and I was training with Brian Diemer, Gerry Donakowski and Chris Brewster for two years, all of whom were either NCAA or TAC champs soon within a year.
Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong
Bob, But I think many US distance runner think of foreign runners as exotic creatures of superior talent and it is no shame to be beaten by them so US runners by and large do not as passionately try to beat them in races or in training like they would try against their peers. I hear this with terms like, first non-Kenyan. How it is and how it should be are not the same things. Surely not all Americans see the foreigners as invincible but enough do so that a tipping point in the Malcom Gladwell sense is not reached leaving US runners isolated. Tom Derderian -- From: Robert Hersh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2001, 6:41 PM These are not exotic creatures--they're the leaders of the pack. Right here in the USA.
Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong
Tom a perfect example is one of the NCAA favorites going into Nationals, Matt Tegencamp. When asked what his goal was for Nationals he said, ...my goal is to be the top American finisher and mix it up with some of the Kenyan's. Basically, it seems as though he has already conceded to Kimani and or Boaz, which was surprising considering his success on the World stage at Cross Juniors. Its hard to believe that he, Ritz, and Torres aren't gunning for the win, despite what Boaz and Kimani have already run. Mike From: Thomas J. Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Thomas J. Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Robert Hersh [EMAIL PROTECTED], t-and-f [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 19:04:52 -0500 Bob, But I think many US distance runner think of foreign runners as exotic creatures of superior talent and it is no shame to be beaten by them so US runners by and large do not as passionately try to beat them in races or in training like they would try against their peers. I hear this with terms like, first non-Kenyan. How it is and how it should be are not the same things. Surely not all Americans see the foreigners as invincible but enough do so that a tipping point in the Malcom Gladwell sense is not reached leaving US runners isolated. Tom Derderian -- From: Robert Hersh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tom Derderian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers: Malmo's wrong Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2001, 6:41 PM These are not exotic creatures--they're the leaders of the pack. Right here in the USA. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: McCloy vs Virgin was Big 10 XC trivia
Funny that Virgin was the subject of a few posts because there was a post to the Can list about a race between McCloy and Virgin. The story below comes from McCloy's former coach, Ray Will. He is definitely taking liberties with what Virgin said but he says that the jist of it is accurate. Maybe some of you recall the race? It was the 84 Pepsi Relays in Oregon. Apparently, the meet still exists in some form-don't know whether they ever had any success in attempting to do a Penn or Drake West. McCloy still has the meet record. His best up until then was only 29:38 but someone got the 20 year old into the meet based on his success at the World X-C champs. Anyone who has seen Paul run will appreciate the story. Controlled mayhem. The fans also got behind the underdog-Tabb was in the race too-apparently they were not all that enamored with Virgin in any event because he left Eugene on not the best of terms. Hopefully my facts are reasonably accurate because I'm getting a lot of it second hand. I'm sure several of you are intimately familiar with the tale and the background and will hand my head to me if I've misspoken. BTW-2 years later as a 22 year old McCloy did a 27:56 while finishing 5th at Mt Sac with a bad case of food poisoning. Take away all the overage Kenyans and both times would probably still be pretty good for age. His 27:56 still ranks him number 3 all time performer in Canada. Another BTW-the IOC standard for the 1 in 1984 was 28:26 but Canada thinks they should only send athletes if they have a shot at the top 16 and the COA set the standard at 28:05. Despite a lot of protests, McCloy didn't go to LA despite Canada's admitted goal of promoting developing athletes. Regards, Martin When Paul did 28:11 he outkicked Craig Virgin at the Pepsi Relays. Afterwards Virgin said something like (I don't remember the exact words): For the first couple of laps I wondered how this guy got into the meet. For the next eight laps or so, I felt sorry for him whilst admiring someone who was obviously somewhat disabled hanging on for so long. Eight laps later I began to wonder what was the matter with me. Surely the lap times were screwy - this guy couldn't be going that fast. A few laps more and I began to really worry about him - but not because there was anything wrong with him!. With two laps to go, there was no more worrying - I was hanging on - and when he kicked I just watched from behind in amazement. Ray
RE: t-and-f: McCloy vs Virgin was Big 10 XC trivia
You sure the hell don't have your facts straight. Virgin did not leave Eugene not on the best of terms. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Martin J. Dixon Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:11 PM To: Track Field List Subject: t-and-f: McCloy vs Virgin was Big 10 XC trivia Funny that Virgin was the subject of a few posts because there was a post to the Can list about a race between McCloy and Virgin. The story below comes from McCloy's former coach, Ray Will. He is definitely taking liberties with what Virgin said but he says that the jist of it is accurate. Maybe some of you recall the race? It was the 84 Pepsi Relays in Oregon. Apparently, the meet still exists in some form-don't know whether they ever had any success in attempting to do a Penn or Drake West. McCloy still has the meet record. His best up until then was only 29:38 but someone got the 20 year old into the meet based on his success at the World X-C champs. Anyone who has seen Paul run will appreciate the story. Controlled mayhem. The fans also got behind the underdog-Tabb was in the race too-apparently they were not all that enamored with Virgin in any event because he left Eugene on not the best of terms. Hopefully my facts are reasonably accurate because I'm getting a lot of it second hand.
Re: t-and-f: US sprinting
Earlier today, under this subject line, Ed Parrot speculated about a decline of U.S. depth of talent in the sprinting events--viz., the 200 and 400 meters--coinciding with the retirement of Michael Johnson. Since I had just finished summarizing the sprint depth data for the 2001 outdoor season, I thought it might be useful, for Ed's concerns, to compare the U.S. position in the world top 100 with that of five years ago. In both instances, the data used are from Mirko Jalava's world lists http://www.tilastopaja.net/. As in past years, I've truncated the data summaries to include only those countries with three of more representatives in the world top 100. MEN'S 200 METERS 2001 MEN'S 200 METERS 1996 Country Top 100 Highest Country Top 102 Highest United States 34 1 United States 40 1 Great Britain7 5 Great Britain7 18 Japan5 15 Jamaica 4 32 Jamaica 4 6 Brazil 4 55 Nigeria 4 21 Canada 4 62 South Africa 4 29 Nigeria 3 15 Trinidad 3 12 South Africa 3 66 Brazil 3 25 Italy3 28 Namibia 3 47 Germany 3 74 32 countries represented36 countries represented 100th = 20.74 100th = 20.66 Ed's comment: My suspicion is that we are unlikely to dominate the men's 200m in the next few years. There are too many guys from too many different places to think that will happen. The data show that there are, in fact, fewer countries represented in the world top 100 than five years ago. The U.S. does have less depth of talent by this measure. Perhaps of greater relevance to Ed's concern, in 1996, the U.S. had 12 athletes in the world top 25; in 2001, only 8 in the top 25. MEN'S 400 METERS 2001 MEN'S 400 METERS 1996 Country Top 100 Highest Country Top 100 Highest United States 25 1 United States 34 1 Jamaica 10 4 Great Britain8 7 South Africa 7 8 Jamaica 7 13 Australia5 52 Kenya6 5 Bahamas 4 2 Brazil 6 43 Poland 4 11 Nigeria 4 25 Japan4 32 South Africa 4 46 Trinidad 3 13 France 3 51 Brazil 3 24 Cuba 3 58 Great Britain3 28 35 countries represented27 countries represented 100th = 45.95 100th = 45.91 Ed's comment: The 400m is different. The U.S. has seemingly owned this event for 20 years. Our depth is off currently, but even at what is clearly a low point, we still are still the best 400m nation in the world. It can be seen that the U.S. dominance in depth in this event is only slightly more diminished than in the 200m. There is a considerable increase in the number of countries with athletes represented in the world top 100. Again, the U.S. decline in dominance probably is most apparent at the top levels of the rankings. In 1996, 13 U.S. athletes were in the top 25; in 2001, only 6 U.S. athletes reached this rank. In passing, note that the 100th place in each list was slightly slower in 2001 than in 1996. Perhaps this is an artifact of the former being an Olympic year?
t-and-f: McCLOY
in my days as t f promotions guy with Reebok (help me out here Mr Derderian) we referred to Paul McCloy as three lane...because one needed to get out to at LEAST lane three to get around the guy Mike Fanelli your San Francisco Bay Area real estate resource Pacific Union Real Estate Group Ltd. (415) 447 - 6254 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.SFabode.com www.MarinHouseHunting.com
Re: t-and-f: US sprinting
Larry Morgan wrote : Jerome Young is done! He hasn't done much of anything in the past three or four years. If Tyree Washington can stay healthy, he's my #1 choice for the MJ 400m successor. The Harrison twins and Angelo Taylor also have potential to dominate the 400m. As for the 200m, it's wide open. Capel is a prospect, but also are Mo' Greene, Bernard Williams, and newcomer J.J. Johnson. Have to agree with Larry .. Jerome Young has done nothing for a few years now ... Something left him when MJ went by him off the turn in the final of the 97 Worlds ... He has not been the same since ... Last year was an aberration for the 400 ... How often does the US lose it's top 3 men in the same season - Washington and the two Harrison's ... Washington was clearly MJs successor until his injury ... So we are fine there not to mention Angelo Taylor should he decide to run here ... In the 200 Mo Greene has shown he is clearly a World Championship or Olympic champion threat at any time, against anyone when he chooses to run here ... Bernard Greene has improved steadily over the last 3 years and is on the brink of sub 20 ... And if Capel returns that gives the US 3 sub 20 prospects ... No other country can stake that claim ... And that is not taking into account this years leader - and only sub 20 - in JJ Johnson ... Development of anything close to consistency would make him the number one threat in any championship situation ...
t-and-f: 10000m/marathon double
I would be interested in seeing more modern guys (90s on up) who have run 27:00 low and sub 2:10 within the same year. It is not in the nineties, but in 1984, Carlos Lopes run 27:17.48 (second fastest time) for the 1m on July 2, and then won the Olympic Gold at the marathon with 2:09:21 on August 12. Another Portuguese, Antonio Pinto run 27:12.47 on July 30, 1999 and 2:09:00 on April 18. In 1998 Pinto ran 27:15:76 on April 4, and 2:08:13 on April 26. Of course, Pinto ran 2:06:36 marathon on April 16, 2000. In 1997, Domingos Castro ran 27:34.77 (not quite low 27 min), on April 5 and then 2:07:51 on APril 20. In 1993, Vincent Rousseau ran 27:23.18 on Sept 3, and 2:09:13 on Oct 17. Of course, he 2:07:51 on April 17, 1994. K. Ken Nakamura
