Re: t-and-f: lists from the 40s and 50s...
A Book with 50 top marks for 1941- 1950 have been published by ATFS. Roberto Quercetani is the main compiler. It is one of the series track and Field performances over the years. Surely Scott Davis knows where you can get them. Also Peter Matthews. For 1951 and on there are the individual years ATFS annuals. Maybe not just quite from 1951 on. Nothing like present day glorious work by Peter Matthews but still contain the information you need. (writing from memory while in a Cardiology Congress in Berlin. Otherwise, from home I could give you precise information). UG Quoting Bob Ramsak [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, Anyone know of any books and/or publications where I can find world and US lists from the 1940s and 50s? Thanks! -- | Bob Ramsak | *TRACK PROFILE News Service - Editor | http://www.trackprofile.com | *Race Results Weekly - Asst. Editor --- |Cleveland, Ohio USA |[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Tel - 216-731-9648 |Fax - 216-731-9675
Re: t-and-f: Interview with Lasse Viren in Sacto Bee
No offense to the writers on this list but it seems like anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous. It makes me wonder about the articles I read about which I know nothing. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: story also says blood-doping stories cropped up in '75 when in reality they had first been attached to Juha Vaatainen after his double at the Euros in '71, and were then attached to Viren in '72. Story also says that blood-doping was illegal, which it is now, but it wasn't in 1972. Heck, '72 was the first Olympiad in which STEROIDS were illegal, for crying out loud; blood-doping was not yet on the rule book radar. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Interview with Lasse Viren in Sacto Bee
on 4/9/02 11:11, Martin J. Dixon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No offense to the writers on this list but it seems like anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous. It makes me wonder about the articles I read about which I know nothing. Regards, Martin Too true! I have exactly the same feeling about subjects I don't know about, and I'm a journalist, although strictly speaking an ex-journalist. At the risk of being a boring old fart, standards seem to have slipped alarmingly. I'm not talking about the specialised magazines here (although heaven knows...) but the papers. The problem is that sports editors will think that athletics needs to be covered. It isn't worth paying for a specialist so send that young kid. That young kid makes numerous errors (and I can think of several in the UK who fit this decsription) although eventually he or she starts to love the sport and the errors get fewer. But along comes another reporter, asks for the cuttings on Viren of whoever and there are those errors. They get recycled and recycled and eventually become truth. And that's not even touching on the fact that these days even journalists om reputable papers make up quotes to embellish their stories, or quote from the internet without checking, or use quotes from other sources without crediting the sources. My, you've got me started... I must lie down in a darkened room with a cold compress. Randall Northam ex editor of Athletics Today magazine, former athletics correspondent of the Daily Express et. etc. Now a struggling publisher.
t-and-f: Gatlin going pro?
There are rumors that Justin Gatlin is giving up the rest of the his college eligibility at Tennessee to pursue a pro track career.
t-and-f: NCAA Preview
2002 Men's NCAA XC Preview by John Molvar Teams Colorado is the defending champion and they expected to have their top 4 back, all who have significantly improved in the last year. In addition they have some outstanding freshmen coming in. Does this make them a lock to repeat this year? Not by a long shot. They only won by 1 point last year and their chief rivals have their entire teams back, are much improved and they will add some more outstanding runners to their teams. This all makes for one of the most highly anticipated NCAA team battles in years. Colorado is led by front runners Jorge Torres (2nd last year) and Dathan Ritzenhein (4) . However, they were dealt a devastating blow when Ritz was diagnosed with a stress fracture in his leg and will be lost for the season. Twin Ed Torres (15) and Steve Slattery (28) battled injuries all last fall and can be expected to finish higher this year. Colorado lost their fifth man, but returns Jarred Scott. They also have a prize recruit in Brett Schoolmester who ran 8:52 for 2 miles. They also have walk-on true freshman Casey Burchill who was running well within the top 5 of the team in early workouts. If he continues like that he may immediately step into the all important 5th man position. They also recruited Payton Batliner and Billy Nelson. Without Ritz and without a proven 5th man, it is unlikely that they can repeat as champions. Stanford's team of all sophomores lost by only 1 point last year. The team is led by Louis Luchini (12), Don Sage (7) and Grant Robison (21), Ian Dobson (20) and Seth Hjeny (43). This year, these juniors, many of whom that have improved significantly, will be complimented by several other top runners who were either injured or red shirted last year including Adam Tenforde who has run under 29 minutes in the 10,000 and Jessie Thomas who steepled 8:35 Outdoors. Behind them they have at least 5 more returning upper classmen who could step up this year to the top 7. They also had a phenomenal recruiting year with a full team of 9 prize recruits. They bring in 6 who ran between 8:55 and 9:05 in the 2 mile in high school, plus another that ran 9:10 and another who ran 4:13 for the mile and another that was a state XC champion. This gives the Cardinal awesome depth that can't be matched by any other squad. Last year's team was also the deepest with the highest placing fifth man (43). Even with several injuries, they still could possibly win. With Colorado losing Ritz, Stanford is now the favorite. Arkansas returns at least their top 7 from last year and has several others ready to make a run at the top 7. The team is a mixture of Americans and an eclectic mix of foreigners from many different countries. They are led by American Danny Lincoln (19), Allistar Cragg (3),Jason Sandfort (32) and Silverus Kimeli (13). With the depth and talent and tradition of big meet performances, many experts may consider them the favorites to win this year. They will need a strong 5th man to emerge from the likes of Wes Alkin, Chris Mulvaney, Fernando Cabada or Said Ahmed to take the title. Wisconsin hopes to have all their top runners running in the championship race this year. Coach Jerry Schumacher has been very successful since he took over as coach a few years ago. Two years ago he recruited 3 sub 9 minute 2 milers in the same year. This year, for the first time all three, Matt Tegankamp (8), Josh Spiker (9) and Tim Keller (82 in '00) will be running together. They also return Isaiah Festa (98) who is capable of finishing much higher and sub 14 minute 5000 man Adam Wallace (30 in '00)and Nick Winkel a 29 flat 1 man whom return from a redshirt season. They also bring in another sub 9 minute high school 2 miler, Bobby Lockhart, who was second in last year's footlocker meet. So good is the talent that if they all improve and all come up big at the same time on race day, they could pull a major upset. Already that looks doubtful though with Spiker battling injury and Keller not near top form. The best of the rest appears to be Northern Arizona. Coach Ron Mann has steadily built up one of the best programs in the country and he is doing it with mostly Americans from the Southwest. This year he scored a recruiting coup by bringing in 3 Footlocker Finalists. While they can't contend for the title, they are definitely a top 5 threat. 1 Stanford 61 2 Arkansas 113 3 Wisconsin121 4 Colorado 148 5 Northern Arizona 220 6 Villanova248 7 Georgetown 297 8 NC State 9 Butler 10 Providence 11 Oregon 12 BYU 13 Michigan State 14 Portland 15 William Mary 16 Colorado State 17 Eastern Michigan 18 Texas 19 Indiana 20 Dartmouth 21 Arizona State 22 SMU Individuals Defending Champion Boaz Chemboywo returns for Eastern Michigan. The Kenyan senior won big last year and confirmed his dominance with an easy win in the
Re: t-and-f: Abe Lemons on Coaching Track
That was similar to the philosophy of one of my HS track coaches, who was really just a football coach who got stuck with us. I was talking about strategy in the two-mile, and he said What strategy? Run fast and keep turning left. While there is a certain logic to that, I was still grateful that we hired a real track coach the next season. Long-time college basketball coach Abe Lemons died recently at age 79. Known for his witty one-liners, today's obituary in the LA Times had this: Track and field is the easiest sport to coach. All you have to do is tell them to keep to the left and hurry back soon. He also said he didn't believe in team rules, because as soon as you draw up a list of team rules some kid will go out and steal an airplane and then say that it wasn't covered in the rules. Likewise, he said that he didn't believe in having team curfews because it's always your star player who gets caught. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com -- Lee Nichols Assistant News Editor The Austin Chronicle 512/454-5766, ext. 138 fax 512/458-6910 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: Eugene sports editor passes away
A friend of Track Field: John Conrad http://www.registerguard.com/conrad/editorial.html Jim Tysell
t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
T F fans, I sent a couple of entries to the list about the Viren article to a journalist friend of mine, here in N. Calif. Here is his reaction: Yeah, if there's anything that makes me not want to cover track and field, it's the fact that there is so much data, coupled with some really persnickety fans. Not to say all track fans are that way, but I've been on the t-and-f list before, and it gets pretty nauseating. I don't know the guy who wrote that story, but he's a Sacramento-based freelancer who also seems to be an endurance athlete. He wrote some Tour de France stories over the summer and apparently talked to Viren when he was overseas. He's definitely not some young kid. Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. another perspective.. Jim Tysell
t-and-f: Wetmore
Netters: I certainly endorse Ryan Grote's sentiements on Mark Wetmore if not quite the way he expressed them. Mark is someone who cares about kids. I may have told this story before, but, if so it it worth repeating. Some years ago, I received a call from an old friend whose daughter, a fine HS runner, had (or was begiing to)lapse into anorexia. He told me that Mark had been responsible for turning her around. (He has a degree in sports psychology.) The girl was not running for Bernards, but that made no difference. I had heard, confidentially, about Ritzenheim's problem a couple of weeks before the news broke and before the stress fracture diagnosis was made. Even then, the decision to red-shirt him this year seemed probably, my informant said, simply as a precautionary move and because of the great future that lies before him. Ed Grant
RE: t-and-f: Eugene sports editor passes away
That paper's coverage of nationals last year was spectacular. I'm the sports editor of a mid-sized paper in Texas, and when our town hosted the NCAA Division II meet, our goal was to cover it like Eugene covered nationals. That paper is remarkable with its track coverage. -Original Message- From: James Tysell [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:40 PM To: Gary Verigin; John Tysell; Jonathan Hoffman; Keith Conning; Kevin Yamamura; Roland Cunningham; Stephen Stageberg; Track Field List Subject: t-and-f: Eugene sports editor passes away A friend of Track Field: John Conrad http://www.registerguard.com/conrad/editorial.html Jim Tysell
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
--- James Tysell's anonymous friend wrote: Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. You learn something new every day... I now know that knowledge and arrogance are the same thing! For what it's worth, I think Martin's quoted statement was 100% accurate. If there's any arrogance at play, it's on the part of the factually challenged journalist resenting being corrected. I don't know the guy who wrote that story, but he's a Sacramento-based freelancer who also seems to be an endurance athlete. He wrote some Tour de France stories over the summer and apparently talked to Viren when he was overseas. He's definitely not some young kid. I believe he is a Runner's World editor, unless I have my articles mixed up. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
I was trying not to offend anyone. It was an observation but I stand by my statement and I have made it before and I am not just talking about track. Me thinks that it hit a little too close to home. I don't think it is arrogant to try to be accurate. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast producing 100 or so pages of newsprint on a daily basis but that article had several errors in it and the 5 hour one was glaring. An endurance athlete should have known better. If I made that many mistakes on a daily basis in my business, I would lose my client base so fast it would be shocking not to mention the constant dealings that I would be having with our insurance company. Maybe that is the standard. I don't know. Very small example. Yesterday morning, I am reading in our local paper about a girl from our area that represented Canada at the Commonwealth games in the triathlon. Our firm actually sponsors her. The paper said that she won the women's division of a 5km race out in the middle of nowhere in 16:50. I'm thinking to myself that the time seemed a little quick so I started poking around. I wanted to see the other times to see if there was some problem with the course. Here is what I found in about 2 minutes: http://pih.bc.ca/results/2002/songhees5k.html Look at the 7th place time. I pointed out the problem to the sports editor and they ran a correction. He thanked me for the information and made no editorial comments about arrogance. If you make a mistake, you fix it and try to do better the next time. You don't deflect the blame. Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. James Tysell wrote: T F fans, I sent a couple of entries to the list about the Viren article to a journalist friend of mine, here in N. Calif. Here is his reaction: Yeah, if there's anything that makes me not want to cover track and field, it's the fact that there is so much data, coupled with some really persnickety fans. Not to say all track fans are that way, but I've been on the t-and-f list before, and it gets pretty nauseating. I don't know the guy who wrote that story, but he's a Sacramento-based freelancer who also seems to be an endurance athlete. He wrote some Tour de France stories over the summer and apparently talked to Viren when he was overseas. He's definitely not some young kid. Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. another perspective.. Jim Tysell
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
Yeah, if there's anything that makes me not want to cover track and field, it's the fact that there is so much data, coupled with some really persnickety fans. Not to say all track fans are that way, but I've been on the t-and-f list before, and it gets pretty nauseating. . . . . . Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. The first statement is quite an ignorant one - anyone who's ever covered baseball or football should never complain about the data in track and field. And many of the sports talk shows that I have had the misfortune to listen to make the track and field list positively uplifting by comparison. Proper journalism really has very little to do with what's important to hardcore fans and it's unfortunate that this guy doesn't get that. As for the second statement, that is one of those loaded observations - there's no way to respond without sounding like one is proving the author's point. But if the alternative is to be silent while standards keep going further and further down, then I'd rather be an arrogant SOB who cares about quality and attention to detail and who demands more of people than mediocrity. If I (or many other people) made these kind of errors in my job, I wouldn't have a job for long. The statement reminds me of what many intelligent adolescents have to go through - peer pressure to avoid showing any use of the brain whatsoever. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
One other thing that our anonymous friend did other than making me fall for the bait is that he selectively edited my statement. I said it seems like A perception, in other words. But then SOME journalists(no one on this list!) will use that trick too-take people out of context for their own purposes. Regards, Martin Ed and Dana Parrot wrote: Yeah, if there's anything that makes me not want to cover track and field, it's the fact that there is so much data, coupled with some really persnickety fans. Not to say all track fans are that way, but I've been on the t-and-f list before, and it gets pretty nauseating. . . . . . Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. The first statement is quite an ignorant one - anyone who's ever covered baseball or football should never complain about the data in track and field. And many of the sports talk shows that I have had the misfortune to listen to make the track and field list positively uplifting by comparison. Proper journalism really has very little to do with what's important to hardcore fans and it's unfortunate that this guy doesn't get that. As for the second statement, that is one of those loaded observations - there's no way to respond without sounding like one is proving the author's point. But if the alternative is to be silent while standards keep going further and further down, then I'd rather be an arrogant SOB who cares about quality and attention to detail and who demands more of people than mediocrity. If I (or many other people) made these kind of errors in my job, I wouldn't have a job for long. The statement reminds me of what many intelligent adolescents have to go through - peer pressure to avoid showing any use of the brain whatsoever. - Ed Parrot
RE: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
As a journalist who makes many mistakes on an every-day basis, let me offer my thoughts. Unless you're talking about the Dallas Morning News, sports departments are tremendously understaffed and overworked. We don't have time to craft stories and triple-check every fact we put in a story like we should. We have to crank out story after story, meeting strenuous deadlines and constantly dealing with idiots who call the newspaper to settle a drunken bet on how many games the Dallas Cowboys won in 1968. I have a staff of five full-time employees trying to write, edit and produce a six-page sports section seven days a week, 365 days a year. If you're interested in this type of thing, you must have a college degree, be willing to work 55 hour weeks, work on Christmas eve and Christmas day, and be willing to start at $21,000 a year. On days when you are writing, you have to produce two or three stories and interview around 10 people, plus deal with moron parents who want to know why you personally hate their kid so much that you refuse to write stories on them even though they work just as hard as everyone else. (After doing a story on a young lady who went blind in one eye before her junior year but became her team's best basketball player, another parent told me their daughter was just as deserving of a story because she had the flu two weeks ago.) When you are done, two people in charge of creating all six pages will try to find the time to edit the stories, get them on the page, get them to fit, put a headline on it, then do this with the other 20 stories in the section. In the profession, we call the newspaper the daily miracle. Unfortunately, mistakes get made. Sometimes really, really bad ones. Two months ago I may have made the worst one ever (right now picture Lee Nichols with tears of laughter rolling down his face). So people call in to get corrections. These fall into two categories: Helpful, nice people who want you to get it right; and little nitpickers playing 'I found an error in the paper and gee you guys are idiots.' Picture this scenario last year: A coach tells us his star runner, who runs the 400 more than one second faster than anyone else in his classification in our area, is undefeated. We check this as best we can and run it. The next day some parent calls and says that no, their son beat that guy in a prelim, and when the finals were cancelled because of lightening, they carried over the prelim times and declared their son the winner, so we are stupid and have no credibility and because of that everything they read they assume is wrong, and that's why we're called the Sub-Standard-Times ha ha ha ha ha. In response, I offered to mail the guy 50 cents to cover the cost of his paper. Yes, errors are unacceptable. Yes, they happen. No, we don't mean to. And to all the people who tell me they'd be fired if they made these kinds of errors, I wish they would see the situations we work under and what we're paid to do it. -Original Message- From: Martin J. Dixon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 1:38 PM To: James Tysell; Track Field List Subject: Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism I was trying not to offend anyone. It was an observation but I stand by my statement and I have made it before and I am not just talking about track. Me thinks that it hit a little too close to home. I don't think it is arrogant to try to be accurate. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast producing 100 or so pages of newsprint on a daily basis but that article had several errors in it and the 5 hour one was glaring. An endurance athlete should have known better. If I made that many mistakes on a daily basis in my business, I would lose my client base so fast it would be shocking not to mention the constant dealings that I would be having with our insurance company. Maybe that is the standard. I don't know. Very small example. Yesterday morning, I am reading in our local paper about a girl from our area that represented Canada at the Commonwealth games in the triathlon. Our firm actually sponsors her. The paper said that she won the women's division of a 5km race out in the middle of nowhere in 16:50. I'm thinking to myself that the time seemed a little quick so I started poking around. I wanted to see the other times to see if there was some problem with the course. Here is what I found in about 2 minutes: http://pih.bc.ca/results/2002/songhees5k.html Look at the 7th place time. I pointed out the problem to the sports editor and they ran a correction. He thanked me for the information and made no editorial comments about arrogance. If you make a mistake, you fix it and try to do better the next time. You don't deflect the blame. Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
Very thoughtful post. I would say that both the salary and time pressure that he mentions can explain much of the problem. Clearly publishers/owners (because the buck must stop with tme) have decided that accuracy can be sacrificed. All the more reason for people to complain rather than simply accept it. Attacking journalists when they make mistakes, however, clearly is not appropriate or effective most of the time. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: Bloomquist, Bret [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Track Field List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:25 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism As a journalist who makes many mistakes on an every-day basis, let me offer my thoughts. Unless you're talking about the Dallas Morning News, sports departments are tremendously understaffed and overworked. We don't have time to craft stories and triple-check every fact we put in a story like we should. We have to crank out story after story, meeting strenuous deadlines and constantly dealing with idiots who call the newspaper to settle a drunken bet on how many games the Dallas Cowboys won in 1968. I have a staff of five full-time employees trying to write, edit and produce a six-page sports section seven days a week, 365 days a year. If you're interested in this type of thing, you must have a college degree, be willing to work 55 hour weeks, work on Christmas eve and Christmas day, and be willing to start at $21,000 a year. On days when you are writing, you have to produce two or three stories and interview around 10 people, plus deal with moron parents who want to know why you personally hate their kid so much that you refuse to write stories on them even though they work just as hard as everyone else. (After doing a story on a young lady who went blind in one eye before her junior year but became her team's best basketball player, another parent told me their daughter was just as deserving of a story because she had the flu two weeks ago.) When you are done, two people in charge of creating all six pages will try to find the time to edit the stories, get them on the page, get them to fit, put a headline on it, then do this with the other 20 stories in the section. In the profession, we call the newspaper the daily miracle. Unfortunately, mistakes get made. Sometimes really, really bad ones. Two months ago I may have made the worst one ever (right now picture Lee Nichols with tears of laughter rolling down his face). So people call in to get corrections. These fall into two categories: Helpful, nice people who want you to get it right; and little nitpickers playing 'I found an error in the paper and gee you guys are idiots.' Picture this scenario last year: A coach tells us his star runner, who runs the 400 more than one second faster than anyone else in his classification in our area, is undefeated. We check this as best we can and run it. The next day some parent calls and says that no, their son beat that guy in a prelim, and when the finals were cancelled because of lightening, they carried over the prelim times and declared their son the winner, so we are stupid and have no credibility and because of that everything they read they assume is wrong, and that's why we're called the Sub-Standard-Times ha ha ha ha ha. In response, I offered to mail the guy 50 cents to cover the cost of his paper. Yes, errors are unacceptable. Yes, they happen. No, we don't mean to. And to all the people who tell me they'd be fired if they made these kinds of errors, I wish they would see the situations we work under and what we're paid to do it. -Original Message- From: Martin J. Dixon [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 1:38 PM To: James Tysell; Track Field List Subject: Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism I was trying not to offend anyone. It was an observation but I stand by my statement and I have made it before and I am not just talking about track. Me thinks that it hit a little too close to home. I don't think it is arrogant to try to be accurate. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast producing 100 or so pages of newsprint on a daily basis but that article had several errors in it and the 5 hour one was glaring. An endurance athlete should have known better. If I made that many mistakes on a daily basis in my business, I would lose my client base so fast it would be shocking not to mention the constant dealings that I would be having with our insurance company. Maybe that is the standard. I don't know. Very small example. Yesterday morning, I am reading in our local paper about a girl from our area that represented Canada at the Commonwealth games in the triathlon. Our firm actually sponsors her. The paper said that she won the women's division of a 5km race out in the middle of nowhere in 16:50. I'm thinking to myself that the time
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
- Original Message - From: Bloomquist, Bret [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a journalist who makes many mistakes on an every-day basis, let me offer my thoughts. Unless you're talking about the Dallas Morning News, sports departments are tremendously understaffed and overworked. We don't have time to craft stories and triple-check every fact we put in a story like we should. As Andrew Marvel said to his coy mistress, Had we but world and time enough... Same with magazine writing and book writing. Time and money rules. At some point you have to stop researching and hand in your work. Too late you will find out that some of the stuff you weren't sure about and could have used was OK but the copyediting, proofing is done and the publisher won't assume the costs of redoing the page layout. Tom Derderian
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
Ed and Dana Parrot wrote: Clearly publishers/owners (because the buck must stop with tme) have decided that accuracy can be sacrificed. I guess that when I sign up for the Rocky Mountain News for one year for $3.12 and an extra year for $.01that I also have made the decision that accuracy can be sacrificed. With the present day news media, TF News excluded, anything I read or hear is just another interesting story, maybe true maybe not. John Lunn
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
From: John Lunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: John Lunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 14:47:02 -0600 To: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Athletics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism I guess that when I sign up for the Rocky Mountain News for one year for $3.12 and an extra year for $.01that I also have made the decision that accuracy can be sacrificed. With the present day news media, TF News excluded, anything I read or hear is just another interesting story, maybe true maybe not. those who trust everything they read in TFN do so at their own peril! :-) gh
Re: t-and-f: Interview with Lasse Viren in Sacto Bee
on 4/9/02 20:25, Bloomquist, Bret at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a staff of five full-time employees trying to write, edit and produce a six-page sports section seven days a week, 365 days a year. If you're interested in this type of thing, you must have a college degree, be willing to work 55 hour weeks, work on Christmas eve and Christmas day, and be willing to start at $21,000 a year Compared with most British provincial papers you are overstaffed and overpaid! As for the rest, that's the lot of the journalist... if you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen. But I suspect you do like the heat and you wouldn'tbe too happy if the presuure was eased. When I wrote about mistakes being made I meant obvious, unforgiveable mistakes, mistakes born of stupidity. Not the natural ones that can occur from time to time. I'll give you an instance. A friend of mine was sent by the Daily Mail to cover the Grand Prix in Brussels back in the 1980s. Amazingly it was the first time in a 15 year career of sports reporting that he'd been to a track and field meeting. It's easy this athletics reporting, I've just got to watch out from Steve Cram and Kirsty Wade, he said. I told himn that track and field can leap up and bite you on the bum when you least expect it. Sure enough, first up was the steeplechase and Colin Reitz took one and a half seconds off the British record. I filled him in on Colin Reitz and assured him that one and a half seconds was an awful lot. Later I heard him filing copy (this was the days before laptops) and he said :Colin Reitz sliced one and a half MINUTES from the British record. I tapped him on the shoulder to correct him and he said: do you mind, I'm giving copy. So I left him alone and told him of his stupid mistake half an hour later. I hope his first edition hadn't gone but if someone in the future asked for cuttings from the Daily Mail library they might see that Reitz took one and a half minutes off the British record. That mistake was caused by the Sports editor and the reporter thinking that track and field is an easy sport to cover. Randall Northam
t-and-f: the topic of the day
(as they say, stop me if you've heard this one) So this guy shows up at the Pearly Gates and St. Peter says, What the heck--Peter's allowed to say 'heck'--are you doing here? You aren't due for another 25 years. Peter checks the big book, finds there has been a computer error. So guy says, You gonna send me back? St. Peter blushes, says, Well, there's a small problem: your original body has already been cremated and we can't undo that. What we can do, though, is create you a new body from scratch, and since it's our error, we'll even let you choose the pieces. So the the guy says, Wow, I was a wimp before, I'd like Arnold Schwarzenegger's body. Done. And I want Tom Cruise's face. Done. And I'd like to be as coordinated as Michael Jordan. Done. Finally, give me a sportswriter's brain. Why the heck would you want a sportswriter's brain? asks St. P. I want one that's never been used.
t-and-f: Re: Viren and journalism
At 11:37 AM 9/4/2002 -0700, t-and-f-digest wrote.. Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. I probably can guess who might have said this, and I know something about James Raia (he writes about endurance sporting events, mostly in the Sacramento area for the the Bee and Davis Enterprise). Am I to take the above quote as meaning that we should just let journalists get away with making gross errors (the blood doping issue is one example), or should we hold them accountable. I know in my professional field of environmental and regulatory economics, I see all sorts of critical errors in newspaper articles. I've written a journal article on how the root causes of the California electricity crisis were mischaracterized in the press (from many different angles). That mischaracterization has greatly affected public policy decisions at the federal and state level and cost Californians tens of billions of dollars. Don't tell me that making errors in newspapers don't have consequences. I understand that journalists have a difficult task of covering a multitude of issues, but they do need to also check their facts. Richard McCann
RE: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism and double standards
Attacking journalists when they make mistakes, however, clearly is not appropriate or effective most of the time. - Ed Parrot But it's OK for journalists to do the same? malmo
t-and-f: Why The Higher World Champs Standards?
I was wondering if someone on the list has some insight into why the A and B standards for the World Championships continue to escalate relative to the yearly world lists. For instance I randomly picked 4 field events (mens and womens HJ and DT) and looked at the average field size for 97,99 and 2001. The number came out to 33,33 and 24. I then looked at the current womens high jump list and it would appear if the event were held today that only 17 women would be eligible. Granted there is a whole year to go but a field of 20 or 21 does not seem out of the question. What is to be gained by this. The participating countries pay there athletes way (correct?). From a fans point of view watching a qualifying round with 2 groups of 16 is little different than 2 groups of 12. It seems like the odds of a long shot doing something unusual basically go to zero when you bump the standards up this much. David Donley
t-and-f: Re: Morrocco and journalism
I'm totally confused.. A HREF=http://sportsserver.com/track_field/story/522930p-4148845c.html; SportServer.com - El Guerrouj throws support to…/A A HREF=http://sportsserver.com/track_field/story/518506p-4115998c.html; SportServer.com - El Guerrouj says Boulami has …/A
Re: t-and-f: Why The Higher World Champs Standards?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 22:25:37 -0400 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Why The Higher World Champs Standards? I was wondering if someone on the list has some insight into why the A and B standards for the World Championships continue to escalate relative to the yearly world lists. For instance I randomly picked 4 field events (mens and womens HJ and DT) and looked at the average field size for 97,99 and 2001. The number came out to 33,33 and 24. I then looked at the current womens high jump list and it would appear if the event were held today that only 17 women would be eligible. Granted there is a whole year to go but a field of 20 or 21 does not seem out of the question. What is to be gained by this. The participating countries pay there athletes way (correct?). From a fans point of view watching a qualifying round with 2 groups of 16 is little different than 2 groups of 12. It seems like the odds of a long shot doing something unusual basically go to zero when you bump the standards up this much. I'm not sure I've seen it stated as policy anywhere, but it would seem likely that IAAF is reacting to IOC pressure to reduce number of contestants for the Olympics. Note that WC standards are now linked to OG, which didn't used to be the case. gh
Re: t-and-f: Re: Morrocco and journalism
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 22:55:35 EDT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Re: Morrocco and journalism I'm totally confused.. A HREF=http://sportsserver.com/track_field/story/522930p-4148845c.html; SportServer.com - El Guerrouj throws support to/A A HREF=http://sportsserver.com/track_field/story/518506p-4115998c.html; SportServer.com - El Guerrouj says Boulami has /A see also Simon, William, candidate for governor of California, who last week came out favoring gay rights, then after being barraged by his party's conservative right said that an aid had filled out the questionnaire which espoused those views, not him and he was opposed. It's called political expediency. gh
Re: t-and-f: Why The Higher World Champs Standards?
I'm not sure I've seen it stated as policy anywhere, but it would seem likely that IAAF is reacting to IOC pressure to reduce number of contestants for the Olympics. Note that WC standards are now linked to OG, which didn't used to be the case. I haven't looked at all the standards, but it seems like the biggest step has been to reduce the B standards. It's going to be a lot harder for countries to send multiple athletes. The men's marathon B standard in particular is faster than the winning time at the 2004 trials. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Re: Morrocco and journalism
Yes it is... In a message dated 9/4/2002 8:30:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's called political expediency.
Re: t-and-f: Viren article and journalism
Martin, Speaking of journalistic inaccuracy, I'm not sure whether the reference to a 5km race out in the middle of nowhere is a statement made by yourself or a quote from your local newspaper. Regardless, I would not consider a 5 K. along the harbour in downtown Victoria (Capital of B.C., population of about 350,000, host City of the 1994 Commonwealth Games) out in the middle of nowhere. Ron Bowker At 02:37 PM 9/4/2002 -0400, Martin J. Dixon wrote: I was trying not to offend anyone. It was an observation but I stand by my statement and I have made it before and I am not just talking about track. Me thinks that it hit a little too close to home. I don't think it is arrogant to try to be accurate. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast producing 100 or so pages of newsprint on a daily basis but that article had several errors in it and the 5 hour one was glaring. An endurance athlete should have known better. If I made that many mistakes on a daily basis in my business, I would lose my client base so fast it would be shocking not to mention the constant dealings that I would be having with our insurance company. Maybe that is the standard. I don't know. Very small example. Yesterday morning, I am reading in our local paper about a girl from our area that represented Canada at the Commonwealth games in the triathlon. Our firm actually sponsors her. The paper said that she won the women's division of a 5km race out in the middle of nowhere in 16:50. I'm thinking to myself that the time seemed a little quick so I started poking around. I wanted to see the other times to see if there was some problem with the course. Here is what I found in about 2 minutes: http://pih.bc.ca/results/2002/songhees5k.html Look at the 7th place time. I pointed out the problem to the sports editor and they ran a correction. He thanked me for the information and made no editorial comments about arrogance. If you make a mistake, you fix it and try to do better the next time. You don't deflect the blame. Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner Millard, Rouse Rosebrugh LLP Chartered Accountants P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. James Tysell wrote: T F fans, I sent a couple of entries to the list about the Viren article to a journalist friend of mine, here in N. Calif. Here is his reaction: Yeah, if there's anything that makes me not want to cover track and field, it's the fact that there is so much data, coupled with some really persnickety fans. Not to say all track fans are that way, but I've been on the t-and-f list before, and it gets pretty nauseating. I don't know the guy who wrote that story, but he's a Sacramento-based freelancer who also seems to be an endurance athlete. He wrote some Tour de France stories over the summer and apparently talked to Viren when he was overseas. He's definitely not some young kid. Anyone who says anytime I read a newspaper article about which I am intimately familiar, the errors are numerous is just too arrogant for his own good. another perspective.. Jim Tysell
