Re: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad?
I'd be curious to know how many of those DNFs were actually their countries' 4th and 5th entrants, and how many were just rough days in an event known for breaking people down. As presented, it looks like the borderline qualifiers didn't hold their own, in which case I'd agree with your assessment. Dan --- Roger Ruth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Or, to put it another way: Why should a country be allowed five > entrants in the marathon, when the maximum for every other event is > four? > > Seven countries were permitted five entries in the men's marathon. Of > those, the highest ranked finisher was Japan's third place (also fourth > place). Of the remaining countries with five entries, the next-highest > finisher was Kenya's seventh place. Kenya's fifth entry, however, did > not finish the course. Nor did their fourth-place finisher. I could go > on (and will), but the very worst example of countries permitted five > entries was South Africa: none of whose runners finished? > > Why, when it should be a life-long distinction for an athlete to even > qualify to compete in the world championships, should anyone gain that > distinction at a lesser level of requirement in the marathon than in > any other event? Especially, when one looks at the competitive > accomplishments of those fifth-choice athletes-- > > Countries with five entrants and their placings in the WC marathon: > > Brazil 10, 33, 39, 41, (49) > Ethiopia 13, 19, 31, DNF, (DNF) > Italy 17, 35. DNF, DNF, (DNF) > Japan 3, 4, 14, 20, (28) > Kenya 7, 11, 29, DNF, (DNF) > South Africa DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, (DNF) > United States 9, 22, 40, 51, (59) > > Okay, I'll back off and let the old wheezies tell me about what's so > great about the marathon. But maybe they also can explain why one > country should be permitted five entrants, when none of the five can > complete the race. > > > http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad?
The race also serves as the team-oriented World Cup, with the top three from each team scoring (total time). Given the nature of the event, five entrants increases the chances of a country having at least three finishers. -Original Message- From: Roger Ruth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:21:53 -0700 Subject: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad? Or, to put it another way: Why should a country be allowed five entrants in the marathon, when the maximum for every other event is four? Seven countries were permitted five entries in the men's marathon. Of those, the highest ranked finisher was Japan's third place (also fourth place). Of the remaining countries with five entries, the next-highest finisher was Kenya's seventh place. Kenya's fifth entry, however, did not finish the course. Nor did their fourth-place finisher. I could go on (and will), but the very worst example of countries permitted five entries was South Africa: none of whose runners finished? Why, when it should be a life-long distinction for an athlete to even qualify to compete in the world championships, should anyone gain that distinction at a lesser level of requirement in the marathon than in any other event? Especially, when one looks at the competitive accomplishments of those fifth-choice athletes-- Countries with five entrants and their placings in the WC marathon: Brazil 10, 33, 39, 41, (49) Ethiopia 13, 19, 31, DNF, (DNF) Italy 17, 35. DNF, DNF, (DNF) Japan 3, 4, 14, 20, (28) Kenya 7, 11, 29, DNF, (DNF) South Africa DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, (DNF) United States 9, 22, 40, 51, (59) Okay, I'll back off and let the old wheezies tell me about what's so great about the marathon. But maybe they also can explain why one country should be permitted five entrants, when none of the five can complete the race.
RE: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad?
Wrong. The "borderline qualifiers," as you characterize them, held their own. It was, as one would expect in championship marathoning, the top professionals, whose livelihoods depend on two (three at most) efforts a year, who would drop out. Brazil 10, 33, 39, 49, DNF (the top qualifier DNF) Ethiopia 13, 19, 31, DNF, (DNF) (3rd, 5th qualifier DNF) Italy 17, 35. DNF, DNF, (DNF) (top three DNF) Japan 3, 4, 14, 20, (28) Kenya 7, 11, 29, DNF, (DNF) (2nd, 4th DNF) South Africa DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, (DNF) United States 9, 22, 40, 51, (59) 2:14:46 5 Khoza Collin RSA DNF 2:11:51 4 Hoff Shadrack RSA DNF 2:08:32 2 Ramaala Hendrick RSA DNF 2:10:16 3 Fika Makhosonke RSA DNF 2:08:33 1 Thys Gert RSA DNF 2:07:29 1 Baldini Stefano ITA DNF 2:09:07 3 Bourifa Migidio ITA DNF 2:08:02 2 Di Cecco Alberico ITA DNF 2:06:47 2 Onsare Wilson KEN DNF 2:07:50 4 Muindi Jimmy KEN DNF 2:09:24 3 Melese Gashaw ETH DNF 2:10:49 5 Guta Dejene ETH DNF 2:10:45 4 Bayo Getuli TAN DNF 2:08:51 2 Bayo Amnaay Zebedayo TAN DNF 2:15:16 4 Bouramdane Abderrahime MAR DNF 2:10:49 2 El Boumlili Khalid MAR DNF 2:14:48 1 Jaber Ahmed Jumaa QAT DNF 2:15:45 2 Awadh Aman Majid QAT DNF 2:13:40 2 Ramard David FRA DNF 2:13:12 1 Ezzobayry Ahmed FRA DNF 2:16:45 2 Lehtinen Tuomo FIN DNF 2:12:10 1 Holmén Janne FIN DNF 2:07:42 2 Ríos José ESP DNF 2:07:49 1 Kim Yi-Yong KOR DNF 2:08:31 1 de Lima Vanderlei BRA DNF 2:11:20 2 Burmakin Dmitriy RUS DNF 2:12:53 1 García José Amado GUA DNF 2:13:00 4 Sousa António POR DNF 2:13:37 1 Belhout Saïd ALG DNF 2:15:13 1 Riyadh Al Mustafa BRN DNF 2:16:06 1 Joseph Zephirinus LCA DNF 2:16:38 1 Cooray Anuradha SRI DNF 2:22:00 1 Maine Tsotang Simon LES DNF 2:30:56 1 Gahimbaré Jean-Paul BDI DNF -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Kaplan Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 3:04 AM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad? I'd be curious to know how many of those DNFs were actually their countries' 4th and 5th entrants, and how many were just rough days in an event known for breaking people down. As presented, it looks like the borderline qualifiers didn't hold their own, in which case I'd agree with your assessment. Dan --- Roger Ruth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Or, to put it another way: Why should a country be allowed five > entrants in the marathon, when the maximum for every other event is > four? > > Seven countries were permitted five entries in the men's marathon. Of > those, the highest ranked finisher was Japan's third place (also > fourth place). Of the remaining countries with five entries, the > next-highest finisher was Kenya's seventh place. Kenya's fifth entry, > however, did not finish the course. Nor did their fourth-place > finisher. I could go on (and will), but the very worst example of > countries permitted five entries was South Africa: none of whose runners finished? > > Why, when it should be a life-long distinction for an athlete to even > qualify to compete in the world championships, should anyone gain that > distinction at a lesser level of requirement in the marathon than in > any other event? Especially, when one looks at the competitive > accomplishments of those fifth-choice athletes-- > > Countries with five entrants and their placings in the WC marathon: > > Brazil 10, 33, 39, 41, (49) > Ethiopia 13, 19, 31, DNF, (DNF) > Italy 17, 35. DNF, DNF, (DNF) > Japan 3, 4, 14, 20, (28) > Kenya 7, 11, 29, DNF, (DNF) > South Africa DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, (DNF) United States 9, 22, 40, 51, > (59) > > Okay, I'll back off and let the old wheezies tell me about what's so > great about the marathon. But maybe they also can explain why one > country should be permitted five entrants, when none of the five can > complete the race. > > > http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
RE: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad?
How exactly was I wrong? That exactly agrees with the question I raised. We just can't agree on anything, you and I... Dan --- malmo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wrong. The "borderline qualifiers," as you characterize them, held their > own. It was, as one would expect in championship marathoning, the top > professionals, whose livelihoods depend on two (three at most) efforts a > year, who would drop out. > > Brazil 10, 33, 39, 49, DNF (the top qualifier DNF) > Ethiopia 13, 19, 31, DNF, (DNF) (3rd, 5th qualifier DNF) > Italy 17, 35. DNF, DNF, (DNF) (top three DNF) > Japan 3, 4, 14, 20, (28) > Kenya 7, 11, 29, DNF, (DNF) (2nd, 4th DNF) > South Africa DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, (DNF) > United States 9, 22, 40, 51, (59) > > 2:14:46 5 Khoza Collin RSA DNF > 2:11:51 4 Hoff Shadrack RSA DNF > 2:08:32 2 Ramaala Hendrick RSA DNF > 2:10:16 3 Fika Makhosonke RSA DNF > 2:08:33 1 Thys Gert RSA DNF > > 2:07:29 1 Baldini Stefano ITA DNF > 2:09:07 3 Bourifa Migidio ITA DNF > 2:08:02 2 Di Cecco Alberico ITA DNF > > 2:06:47 2 Onsare Wilson KEN DNF > 2:07:50 4 Muindi Jimmy KEN DNF > > 2:09:24 3 Melese Gashaw ETH DNF > 2:10:49 5 Guta Dejene ETH DNF > > 2:10:45 4 Bayo Getuli TAN DNF > 2:08:51 2 Bayo Amnaay Zebedayo TAN DNF > > 2:15:16 4 Bouramdane Abderrahime MAR DNF > 2:10:49 2 El Boumlili Khalid MAR DNF > > 2:14:48 1 Jaber Ahmed Jumaa QAT DNF > 2:15:45 2 Awadh Aman Majid QAT DNF > > 2:13:40 2 Ramard David FRA DNF > 2:13:12 1 Ezzobayry Ahmed FRA DNF > > 2:16:45 2 Lehtinen Tuomo FIN DNF > 2:12:10 1 Holmén Janne FIN DNF > > 2:07:42 2 Ríos José ESP DNF > > 2:07:49 1 Kim Yi-Yong KOR DNF > > 2:08:31 1 de Lima Vanderlei BRA DNF > > 2:11:20 2 Burmakin Dmitriy RUS DNF > > 2:12:53 1 García José Amado GUA DNF > > 2:13:00 4 Sousa António POR DNF > > 2:13:37 1 Belhout Saïd ALG DNF > > 2:15:13 1 Riyadh Al Mustafa BRN DNF > > 2:16:06 1 Joseph Zephirinus LCA DNF > > 2:16:38 1 Cooray Anuradha SRI DNF > > 2:22:00 1 Maine Tsotang Simon LES DNF > > 2:30:56 1 Gahimbaré Jean-Paul BDI DNF > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Kaplan > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 3:04 AM > To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu > Subject: Re: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad? > > I'd be curious to know how many of those DNFs were actually their > countries' > 4th and 5th entrants, and how many were just rough days in an event > known > for breaking people down. As presented, it looks like the borderline > qualifiers didn't hold their own, in which case I'd agree with your > assessment. > > Dan > > --- Roger Ruth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Or, to put it another way: Why should a country be allowed five > > entrants in the marathon, when the maximum for every other event is > > four? > > > > Seven countries were permitted five entries in the men's marathon. Of > > those, the highest ranked finisher was Japan's third place (also > > fourth place). Of the remaining countries with five entries, the > > next-highest finisher was Kenya's seventh place. Kenya's fifth entry, > > however, did not finish the course. Nor did their fourth-place > > finisher. I could go on (and will), but the very worst example of > > countries permitted five entries was South Africa: none of whose > runners > finished? > > > > Why, when it should be a life-long distinction for an athlete to even > > qualify to compete in the world championships, should anyone gain that > > > distinction at a lesser level of requirement in the marathon than in > > any other event? Especially, when one looks at the competitive > > accomplishments of those fifth-choice athletes-- > > > > Countries with five entrants and their placings in the WC marathon: > > > > Brazil 10, 33, 39, 41, (49) > > Ethiopia 13, 19, 31, DNF, (DNF) > > Italy 17, 35. DNF, DNF, (DNF) > > Japan 3, 4, 14, 20, (28) > > Kenya 7, 11, 29, DNF, (DNF) > > South Africa DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, (DNF) United States 9, 22, 40, 51, > > (59) > > > > Okay, I'll back off and let the old wheezies tell me about what's so > > great about the marathon. But maybe they also can explain why one > > country should be permitted five entrants, when none of the five can > > complete the race. > > > > > > > > > http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming > http://Run-Down.com > - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F > > @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) > _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax >/ / > > > > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
t-and-f: Re: What's so good?
I'll tell you what's so good: As I've written more than once, it's the unparalled value of this list as a resource for information about our sport. As Dan, Mike, George and Walt have just demonstrated to me again, whatever question I might have about t-and-f events I'm unfamiliar with, all I have to do is ask and someone will provide the answer. What's "bad"? If there's anything that has become disappointing about the list over the years, it's the decline in participation and especially in posting of results and interpretations of unexpected outcomes. Today, when I checked with majordomo, there were 674 members on the list. I'm sure I can remember a time when there were more than two thousand, perhaps three thousand? Why the decline? Perhaps it's related to the reason for no longer posting results--with so many now having high-speed web access, it's easy to search out the results we're each interested in. Sometimes. What else is bad? Anyone who has posted to the list in the last two years will know that immediately following receipt of the copy of the mailing, he/she will also receive a notification from mailer-daemon that: Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to: john dixon,InterAct (The name was not found at the remote site. Check that the name has been entered correctly.) If our 673 current members still includes at least one supervisor, might it be possible to find a way to unsubscribe john dixon,Interact? Thanks. Two last observations, this time on today's events. I know it's still considered to be bad taste to give results of events that will later be televised, so I won't comment on the women's marathon. For all those Canadians who don't want to know until they can watch the video on CBC at midnight: enjoy! Maybe it's fair game, though, to wonder how the men's 5,000 meters has changed so very much over the years that of today's 15 finalists, none is from North America and only Marius Bakkus of Norway is from Europe. Pre, I hope you're not watching.
Re: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad?
There is also simply more room on the roads that on the track for more runners in a single race without resorting to trials as in the other events or interfering with each other. What would be unfair in an 800, crowded tracks or a half dozen qualifying rounds, is not unfair in the marathon because those problems are not encountered. True more athletes get to say that they qualified in the marathon than in other events but anyone who knows the sport can compare performances. Is it the same in the walks? Tom On Aug 14, 2005, at 7:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The race also serves as the team-oriented World Cup, with the top three from each team scoring (total time). Given the nature of the event, five entrants increases the chances of a country having at least three finishers. -Original Message- From: Roger Ruth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:21:53 -0700 Subject: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad? Or, to put it another way: Why should a country be allowed five entrants in the marathon, when the maximum for every other event is four? Seven countries were permitted five entries in the men's marathon. Of those, the highest ranked finisher was Japan's third place (also fourth place). Of the remaining countries with five entries, the next-highest finisher was Kenya's seventh place. Kenya's fifth entry, however, did not finish the course. Nor did their fourth-place finisher. I could go on (and will), but the very worst example of countries permitted five entries was South Africa: none of whose runners finished? Why, when it should be a life-long distinction for an athlete to even qualify to compete in the world championships, should anyone gain that distinction at a lesser level of requirement in the marathon than in any other event? Especially, when one looks at the competitive accomplishments of those fifth-choice athletes-- Countries with five entrants and their placings in the WC marathon: Brazil 10, 33, 39, 41, (49) Ethiopia 13, 19, 31, DNF, (DNF) Italy 17, 35. DNF, DNF, (DNF) Japan 3, 4, 14, 20, (28) Kenya 7, 11, 29, DNF, (DNF) South Africa DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, (DNF) United States 9, 22, 40, 51, (59) Okay, I'll back off and let the old wheezies tell me about what's so great about the marathon. But maybe they also can explain why one country should be permitted five entrants, when none of the five can complete the race.
Re: t-and-f: Re: What's so good?
--- Roger Ruth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'll tell you what's so good: As I've written more than once, it's the > unparalled value of this list as a resource for information about our > sport ... all I have to do is ask and someone will provide the answer. I still consider it the best such resource, but it's more of an encyclopedia these days than a steady discussion. Got a question? Send it off to the list and some track savvy librarian dusts off the old books and looks it up lickety split. Too many other places to discuss things and get instant results, but here is one place you don't have to sift through the rubbish to get a straight answer. > If our 673 current members still includes at least one supervisor, > might it be possible to find a way to unsubscribe john dixon,Interact? Here, here! Dan http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: t-and-f: Re: What's so good?
I'll tell what else is so good...the absolutely WONDERFUL job that the people at www.wcsn.com and Eurovision did with the World Championships webcast. I actually pretty much gave up on trying to watch the PAX-TV daily summaries because they were just so inferior, even though they were using the Eurovision feeds. I started watching a bit of the PAX summary today up until the the start of the men's 5000m and then I just gave up because I knew what it would be like. Hell, Dwight Stones does the best with what they give him, though. I'd like to hear his real thoughts on the winning height in today's HJ. But I never would've thought that Steve Ovett would be such an excellent presenter, either. I think Dwight should just team up with those guys full-time and they would have a great broadcast team. They did a superb job with the marathon today...I watched every minute of it today, didn't hit the fast forward once and it was worth every second of it. Radcliffe put on a simply awesome display of strength and confidence but Tomescu and Ndereba ran courageous, gutsy races. The only thing which I really missed were some post-event interviews. But we can find them elsewhere on the net, at least for that particular race. One of the best things was the fact that since they covered everything, one could see the utter joy on the faces of these athletes as they did their laps of honor and the fact that they covered all of the medal ceremonies. (Did everyone catch Drechsler and Frankie Fredricks today getting their special awards, too? That was great.) I ended up not fast forwarding through very much of these broadcasts because the actual action and the presentation were well worth the extra time. It is great to know that WCSN is going to cover the remaining Golden League events, too. This is the wave of the future for those of us in the USA who are starved for decent international track and field coverage. (If anyone has figured out how to "capture" these webcast files to the hard drive, please email me. I've tried a few of my tools to no avail so far.) bob
RE: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad?
Some facts 96 entrants, 61 finishers (36.5% DNF) DNF rate by team ranking 1 38 11 DNF 29% 2 22 10 DNF 45% 3 16 5 DNF 31% 4 13 7 DNF 54% 5 7 2 DNF 28% (1,2,3) DNF 35.5% (4,5) DNF 42.8% Avg individual rankings change within his team based on WC results 1 -0.34 2 -0.41 3 +0.37 4 +0.46 5 +1.43 (!) (1,2,3) -0.21 (4,5) +0.80 Looks to me as though the 4th and 5th runners didn't merely acquit themselves -- THEY WERE OUTSTANDING! Congratulations are in order for those unheralded men! malmo (apologies for the formatting) Athlete Country PR Team Rank Team Finish Change WC Result WC Time Belhout Saïd ALG 2:13:37 1 1 0 DNF DNF Bernadó Antoni AND 2:14:25 1 1 0 26 2:19:06 Westcott Scott AUS 2:11:36 1 1 0 27 2:19:18 Gahimbaré Jean-PaulBDI 2:30:56 1 1 0 DNF DNF dos Santos Marilson Gomes BRA 2:08:48 3 1 2 10 2:13:40 Ramos André Luiz BRA 2:08:26 1 2 -1 33 2:21:06 Rodrigues Claudir BRA 2:15:27 5 3 2 41 2:23:11 da Silva Clodoaldo BRA 2:13:12 4 4 0 49 2:25:02 de Lima Vanderlei BRA 2:08:31 2 5 -3 DNF DNF Riyadh Al Mustafa BRN 2:15:13 1 1 0 DNF DNF Cruz NelsonCPV 2:19:15 1 1 0 38 2:22:12 Asmeron Yared ERI 2:16:45 1 1 0 25 2:18:46 Rey Julio ESP 2:07:27 1 1 0 8 2:12:51 Martínez José Manuel ESP 2:08:09 3 2 1 30 2:20:07 Ziani KamalESP 2:10:18 4 3 1 50 2:25:06 Ríos José ESP 2:07:42 2 4 -2 DNF DNF Shentama GudisaETH 2:09:46 4 1 3 13 2:15:13 Tolossa AmbesseETH 2:08:56 2 2 0 19 2:16:36 Negussie Hailu ETH 2:08:16 1 3 -2 31 2:20:25 Melese Gashaw ETH 2:09:24 3 4 -1 DNF DNF Guta DejeneETH 2:10:49 5 5 0 DNF DNF Kirwa Francis FIN 2:16:08 2 1 1 39 2:22:22 Pesonen Yrjö FIN 2:17:05 4 2 2 53 2:25:39 Holmén Janne FIN 2:12:10 1 3 -2 DNF DNF Lehtinen Tuomo FIN 2:16:45 3 4 -1 DNF DNF Bagy AbdelhakimFRA 2:11:06 1 1 0 36 2:21:49 Sghyr Ismaïl FRA 2:11:27 2 2 0 55 2:27:07 Ezzobayry AhmedFRA 2:13:12 3 3 0 DNF DNF Ramard David FRA 2:13:40 4 4 0 DNF DNF Robinson Dan GBR 2:13:53 1 1 0 12 2:14:26 Lobb Huw GBR 2:14:33 2 2 0 44 2:23:38 Arévalo AlfredoGUA 2:12:53 1 1 0 52 2:25:37 García José Amado GUA 2:14:52 2 2 0 DNF DNF 0 Satayin Haile ISR 2:14:21 1 1 0 21 2:17:26 Zvadya Wodage ISR 2:16:04 3 2 1 37 2:21:57 Bimro Asaf ISR 2:14:52 2 3 -1 47 2:23:58 Andriani Ottaviano ITA 2:09:07 3 1 2 17 2:16:29 Pertile RuggeroITA 2:10:12 5 2 3 35 2:21:34 Baldini StefanoITA 2:07:29 1 3 -2 DNF DNF Di Cecco Alberico ITA 2:08:02 2 4 -2 DNF DNF Bourifa MigidioITA 2:09:07 4 5 -1 DNF DNF Ogata Tsuyoshi JPN 2:08:37 2 1 1 3 2:11:16 Takaoka Toshinari JPN 2:06:16 1 2 -1 4 2:11:53 Okutani Wataru JPN 2:09:13 4 3 1 14 2:15:30 Irifune SatoshiJPN 2:09:58 5 4 1 20 2:17:22 Hosokawa Michitaka JPN 2:09:10 3 5 -2 48 2:24:38
RE: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad?
Malmo: I do agree with you that the bottom rankers fared better than the top rankers -- and I also agree with your reasoning. However, using this stat below: Avg individual rankings change within his team based on WC results 1 -0.34 2 -0.41 3 +0.37 4 +0.46 5 +1.43 (!) (1,2,3) -0.21 (4,5) +0.80 doesn't help the argument. It's an example of statistics skewing perception of the event. The #1 rankers had no place to go but down. If they ALL finished 1st for their nation, they would have scored a 0.00. The average change was going to be negative, except for the one permutation where they ALL finished 1st. Opposite is true for the 5th rankers. If they all crapped out, the WORST they could have done was a 0.00. They were going to have a positive number, essentailly, no matter what. Similar problems for #2 and #4. #2's had only one permutation where they go positive -- but 3 permutations where they go negative. This particular analysis (delta ranking) really only gives us valuable info for the 3rd placers. They had an equal chance of improving or falling back...and they got better Still -- I agree. The scrubs fared better than the studs. No statistics needed. Common sense analysis applies. RC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of malmo Sent: Sun 8/14/2005 8:37 PM To: 'Dan Kaplan'; t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Cc: Subject: RE: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad? Some facts 96 entrants, 61 finishers (36.5% DNF) DNF rate by team ranking 1 38 11 DNF 29% 2 22 10 DNF 45% 3 16 5 DNF 31% 4 13 7 DNF 54% 5 7 2 DNF 28% (1,2,3) DNF 35.5% (4,5) DNF 42.8% Avg individual rankings change within his team based on WC results 1 -0.34 2 -0.41 3 +0.37 4 +0.46 5 +1.43 (!) (1,2,3) -0.21 (4,5) +0.80 Looks to me as though the 4th and 5th runners didn't merely acquit themselves -- THEY WERE OUTSTANDING! Congratulations are in order for those unheralded men! malmo (apologies for the formatting) Athlete Country PR Team Rank Team Finish Change WC Result WC Time Belhout Saïd ALG 2:13:37 1 1 0 DNF DNF Bernadó Antoni AND 2:14:25 1 1 0 26 2:19:06 Westcott Scott AUS 2:11:36 1 1 0 27 2:19:18 Gahimbaré Jean-PaulBDI 2:30:56 1 1 0 DNF DNF dos Santos Marilson Gomes BRA 2:08:48 3 1 2 10 2:13:40 Ramos André Luiz BRA 2:08:26 1 2 -1 33 2:21:06 Rodrigues Claudir BRA 2:15:27 5 3 2 41 2:23:11 da Silva Clodoaldo BRA 2:13:12 4 4 0 49 2:25:02 de Lima Vanderlei BRA 2:08:31 2 5 -3 DNF DNF Riyadh Al Mustafa BRN 2:15:13 1 1 0 DNF DNF Cruz NelsonCPV 2:19:15 1 1 0 38 2:22:12 Asmeron Yared ERI 2:16:45 1 1 0 25 2:18:46 Rey Julio ESP 2:07:27 1 1 0 8 2:12:51 Martínez José Manuel ESP 2:08:09 3 2 1 30 2:20:07 Ziani KamalESP 2:10:18 4 3 1 50 2:25:06 Ríos José ESP 2:07:42 2 4 -2 DNF DNF Shentama GudisaETH 2:09:46 4 1 3 13 2:15:13 Tolossa AmbesseETH 2:08:56 2 2 0 19 2:16:36 Negussie Hailu ETH 2:08:16 1 3 -2 31 2:20:25 Melese Gashaw ETH 2:09:24 3 4 -1 DNF DNF Guta DejeneETH 2:10:49 5 5 0 DNF DNF Kirwa Francis FIN 2:16:08 2 1 1 39 2:22:22 P
Re: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad?
No, walking has it's own World Cup separate from the World Championship in Athletics. In it, five entrants are permitted from each nation with three scoring, with no qualification standard, in each of the three walking events (20k men & women, 50 k men), just like the Marathon Cup in the World Championships. In the World Championships however, a maximum of three competitors per nation (plus the defending champion wild card) are permitted with A and B standards as in all other events. Tom Derderian wrote: There is also simply more room on the roads that on the track for more runners in a single race without resorting to trials as in the other events or interfering with each other. What would be unfair in an 800, crowded tracks or a half dozen qualifying rounds, is not unfair in the marathon because those problems are not encountered. True more athletes get to say that they qualified in the marathon than in other events but anyone who knows the sport can compare performances. Is it the same in the walks? Tom On Aug 14, 2005, at 7:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The race also serves as the team-oriented World Cup, with the top three from each team scoring (total time). Given the nature of the event, five entrants increases the chances of a country having at least three finishers. -Original Message- From: Roger Ruth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:21:53 -0700 Subject: t-and-f: What's so good . . . about an event so bad? Or, to put it another way: Why should a country be allowed five entrants in the marathon, when the maximum for every other event is four? Seven countries were permitted five entries in the men's marathon. Of those, the highest ranked finisher was Japan's third place (also fourth place). Of the remaining countries with five entries, the next-highest finisher was Kenya's seventh place. Kenya's fifth entry, however, did not finish the course. Nor did their fourth-place finisher. I could go on (and will), but the very worst example of countries permitted five entries was South Africa: none of whose runners finished? Why, when it should be a life-long distinction for an athlete to even qualify to compete in the world championships, should anyone gain that distinction at a lesser level of requirement in the marathon than in any other event? Especially, when one looks at the competitive accomplishments of those fifth-choice athletes-- Countries with five entrants and their placings in the WC marathon: Brazil 10, 33, 39, 41, (49) Ethiopia 13, 19, 31, DNF, (DNF) Italy 17, 35. DNF, DNF, (DNF) Japan 3, 4, 14, 20, (28) Kenya 7, 11, 29, DNF, (DNF) South Africa DNF, DNF, DNF, DNF, (DNF) United States 9, 22, 40, 51, (59) Okay, I'll back off and let the old wheezies tell me about what's so great about the marathon. But maybe they also can explain why one country should be permitted five entrants, when none of the five can complete the race. -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx (TM) 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
