RE: Re: t-and-f: Bengt Saltin (and others) on muscle fiber type

2001-05-25 Thread alan tobin

Has nothing to do with finally seeing the light. Muscule fiber is just one 
of those things, like height, that you can not change. You can train the 
fibers to act more slow or fast twitch, but they are still what they are. 
So in that sense, yes runners be it long distance or sprinters are born. 
But, I think one would know right off where they fall in the fast/slow fiber 
debate and unless they love finishing last they will not persue running that 
is opposite what their bodies were made for. I don't think anyone would 
argue that someone with 90% fast twitch can become a good long distance 
runner. That simply can not happen. The same could be said about someone who 
doesn't have the slightest genetic gift when it comes to running.

What I try to address is the grey area between top of the line runners 
(World/Olympic medalists) and the Gallowalkers who really have no hope when 
it comes to competitive running. What does it take to be competitive with 
the world elite? When you are on top (World/Olympic medalists) you need it 
all: genetics, training, luck, etc. But to win a few good races: Boston, 
Falmouth, European Track, etc I think you can get by without a serious 
genetic gift. It's only when you are racing THE VERY BEST that you lose out, 
because the very best have it all.

I've seen very fast Kenyans, and I've seen very mediocre Kenyans. Not all 
Kenyans are born to be world record holders. There are just more good 
Kenyans, more great Kenyans, and more mediocre Kenyans for a number of 
reasons...one being genetics. That still doesn't mean a smaller group of 
Japanese, Americans, ect can not stand out amongst the Kenyans. It just 
means that surrounding the 10 or 20 non-Kenyans will be 100 Kenyans. It's 
just one of those rules of sports, like Chinese table tennis players or 
Romanian gymnasts. Doesn't mean one should throw in the towel either. One 
can still, with just a little genetic talent, become a very fast and very 
good runner and win a lot of top level races. Just when it comes to the very 
top of the mountain (Olympics, Worlds) they will most likely be beaten by 
those who have it all: genetics, training, and luck.

Don't remember what the point of this post was. I guess I agree with Jon to 
an extent.

Alan

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Re: Re: t-and-f: Bengt Saltin (and others) on muscle fiber type

2001-05-25 Thread Ed Dana Parrot

 When you are on top (World/Olympic medalists) you need it
 all: genetics, training, luck, etc. But to win a few good races: Boston,
 Falmouth, European Track, etc I think you can get by without a serious
 genetic gift. It's only when you are racing THE VERY BEST that you lose
out,
 because the very best have it all.

It is EASIER to win Boston than to win the Olympic marathon???  With the
money and the fields not limited to 3 from each country, Boston, Chicago,
London, New York, Rotterdam and a few others are harder to win than the
Olympic marathon.

- Ed Parrot




RE: Re: t-and-f: Bengt Saltin (and others) on muscle fiber type

2001-05-25 Thread P.F.Talbot

The %slow twitch vs. %fast twitch is interesting in another way as well:
it shows how important some other factors must be (though they are still
probably genetically determined for the large part).  For example, what
sort of muscle composition would explain Said Aouita who ranked #1 in the
world at both 800m and 10,000m.  Martin and Coe have a short discussion on
this very subject in (Better) Training for Distance Runners, probably
the best read there is on distance running.

The variablity of %slow twitch fibers among elite distance runners has a
huge range, from about 50%-90%, however, the ST fibers are much larger
than the FT and take up much more of the area biopsied than the actual %
of ST fibers.

Regards,

Paul

On Fri, 25 May 2001, alan tobin wrote:

 Has nothing to do with finally seeing the light. Muscule fiber is just one
 of those things, like height, that you can not change. You can train the
 fibers to act more slow or fast twitch, but they are still what they are.
 So in that sense, yes runners be it long distance or sprinters are born.
 But, I think one would know right off where they fall in the fast/slow fiber
 debate and unless they love finishing last they will not persue running that
 is opposite what their bodies were made for. I don't think anyone would
 argue that someone with 90% fast twitch can become a good long distance
 runner. That simply can not happen. The same could be said about someone who
 doesn't have the slightest genetic gift when it comes to running.

 What I try to address is the grey area between top of the line runners
 (World/Olympic medalists) and the Gallowalkers who really have no hope when
 it comes to competitive running. What does it take to be competitive with
 the world elite? When you are on top (World/Olympic medalists) you need it
 all: genetics, training, luck, etc. But to win a few good races: Boston,
 Falmouth, European Track, etc I think you can get by without a serious
 genetic gift. It's only when you are racing THE VERY BEST that you lose out,
 because the very best have it all.

 I've seen very fast Kenyans, and I've seen very mediocre Kenyans. Not all
 Kenyans are born to be world record holders. There are just more good
 Kenyans, more great Kenyans, and more mediocre Kenyans for a number of
 reasons...one being genetics. That still doesn't mean a smaller group of
 Japanese, Americans, ect can not stand out amongst the Kenyans. It just
 means that surrounding the 10 or 20 non-Kenyans will be 100 Kenyans. It's
 just one of those rules of sports, like Chinese table tennis players or
 Romanian gymnasts. Doesn't mean one should throw in the towel either. One
 can still, with just a little genetic talent, become a very fast and very
 good runner and win a lot of top level races. Just when it comes to the very
 top of the mountain (Olympics, Worlds) they will most likely be beaten by
 those who have it all: genetics, training, and luck.

 Don't remember what the point of this post was. I guess I agree with Jon to
 an extent.

 Alan

 _
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***
Paul Talbot
Department of Geography/
Institute of Behavioral Science
University of Colorado, Boulder
Boulder CO 80309-0260
(303) 492-3248
[EMAIL PROTECTED]