RE: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
Malmo asked: Cruz mostly African ancestry? Well, heck - if you go back far enough, we're ALL of mostly African ancestry, right? but the statement that 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry is still wrong... it can only be 82... it's just poor data collection undermining what are substantive claims... Unfortunately, Jon continuously undermines his authority and research by tossing out, and often defending, undocumentable or spurious facts. Kind of reminds me of Al Gore during critical parts of the campaign last year - his errors open the door for easy attacks on his credibility, shooting himself in the foot even when there's no clearly articulated message to refute his basic thesis. Phil Lockbox Strategery
Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote: Jon, I don't understand where you are getting these numbers from... each time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is the 800m evidence you cite? my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time produces this list of non-africans 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe 11 1.42,33Sebastian Coe 18 1.42,58Vebjørn Rodal 39 1.42,88Steve Cram 40 1.42,90André Bucher 42 1.42,92André Bucher 43 1.42,95Vebjørn Rodal 45 1.42,97Peter Elliott 54 1.43,07Sebastian Coe 60 1.43,12André Bucher 64 1.43,17Yuriy Borzakovskiy 67 1.43,19Steve Cram 72 1.43,22Steve Cram 75 1.43,25Vebjørn Rodal 84 1.43,31André Bucher 91 1.43,34André Bucher 98 1.43,38Sebastian Coe 98 1.43,38Rich Kenah http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm That's 18, not 8! And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have a couple wrong here through not knowing who/what they are/were (ugly terminology, but we are playing this game)): 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram 13 1.42.90 André Bucher 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha 63 1.43.92 John Marshall 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe 72 1.43.98 Bram Som 73 1.43.9h José Marajo 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm That's 38... Please explain your sources... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete, particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South America. Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes to the top. Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those so-called great times of years ago pale in comparison RELATIVE to the population numbers AND overall. In the 800 metres, for instance, 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry. Was Coe a great runner. Of course. And we will always have great runners. But he was no where near the consistent level of a Kipketer or Cruz. ... *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
but the statement that 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry is still wrong... it can only be 82... it's just poor data collection undermining what are substantive claims... for what it's worth my view here is that the discussion is about probabilities... Entine is probably correct in that the probability of a given East African being capable of world class middle to long-distance performances is higher than a non-East African, and likewise that the probability of a West African being capable of world class sprint performances is higher than a non-West African... but it's only probabilities... the beauty of the stochastic nature of the process is that there are always freaks who mess with the numbers... so maybe it becomes an issue of freak frequency (almost went for the pun there)... and then there's hard work, training, opportunity, environment, discrimination, resources etc... uh-oh, we're back on this train again! why do we get sucked in? At 10:15 AM 8/15/2001, P.F.Talbot wrote: So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote: Jon, I don't understand where you are getting these numbers from... each time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is the 800m evidence you cite? my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time produces this list of non-africans 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe 11 1.42,33Sebastian Coe 18 1.42,58Vebjørn Rodal 39 1.42,88Steve Cram 40 1.42,90André Bucher 42 1.42,92André Bucher 43 1.42,95Vebjørn Rodal 45 1.42,97Peter Elliott 54 1.43,07Sebastian Coe 60 1.43,12André Bucher 64 1.43,17Yuriy Borzakovskiy 67 1.43,19Steve Cram 72 1.43,22Steve Cram 75 1.43,25Vebjørn Rodal 84 1.43,31André Bucher 91 1.43,34André Bucher 98 1.43,38Sebastian Coe 98 1.43,38Rich Kenah http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm That's 18, not 8! And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have a couple wrong here through not knowing who/what they are/were (ugly terminology, but we are playing this game)): 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram 13 1.42.90 André Bucher 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha 63 1.43.92 John Marshall 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe 72 1.43.98 Bram Som 73 1.43.9h José Marajo 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm That's 38... Please explain your sources... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete, particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South America. Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes to the top. Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those so-called great times of years ago pale in comparison RELATIVE to the population numbers AND overall. In the 800 metres, for instance, 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry. Was Coe a great runner. Of course. And we will always have great runners. But he was no where near the consistent level of a Kipketer or Cruz. ... *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado,
Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). It's hard to categorize anyone from the West Indies or Central America unless you know their specific origin. But assuming Juantorena is the 8th, it still is not accurate to say, as Entine did, that 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry. You could say 18 of the top 100 times, 38 of the top 100 performers, or 8 of the individuals who account for the top 100 times. To state the latter would be the worst kind of misuse of statistics unless you said 8 of the x number of individuals who account for the top 100 times (is it 35 or so individuals?) As I have said before, I don't think his science is particularly flawed, but I don't think it is important either. and he makes himself a laughingstock by constantly using the Kipketer quote and 800m times to prove his points about distance running. He could certainly find equally compelling evidence by using the 5000m or 1m list, couldn't he? And saying Coe is nowhere the consistent level of Cruz or Kipketer is just funny. It's like saying Jesse Owens was not as consistent as Mo Greene because his times aren't as fast. And if he chose to race less often than others, that doesn't make him a less consistent runner - maybe less prolific. Only one person even came close to that 800m mark for over a decade despite the best efforts of the best runners. And no one has come close since the season when Kipketer did it. I mean, a longstanding world record, Olympic titles, rarely losing for 5+ years, what the hell more could he have done except tried to run 1:42 every week! - Ed Parrot
RE: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
Cruz mostly African ancestry? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Andre Sammartino Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:32 PM To: P.F.Talbot Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws but the statement that 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry is still wrong... it can only be 82... it's just poor data collection undermining what are substantive claims... for what it's worth my view here is that the discussion is about probabilities... Entine is probably correct in that the probability of a given East African being capable of world class middle to long-distance performances is higher than a non-East African, and likewise that the probability of a West African being capable of world class sprint performances is higher than a non-West African... but it's only probabilities... the beauty of the stochastic nature of the process is that there are always freaks who mess with the numbers... so maybe it becomes an issue of freak frequency (almost went for the pun there)... and then there's hard work, training, opportunity, environment, discrimination, resources etc... uh-oh, we're back on this train again! why do we get sucked in? At 10:15 AM 8/15/2001, P.F.Talbot wrote: So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote: Jon, I don't understand where you are getting these numbers from... each time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is the 800m evidence you cite? my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time produces this list of non-africans 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe 11 1.42,33Sebastian Coe 18 1.42,58Vebjørn Rodal 39 1.42,88Steve Cram 40 1.42,90André Bucher 42 1.42,92André Bucher 43 1.42,95Vebjørn Rodal 45 1.42,97Peter Elliott 54 1.43,07Sebastian Coe 60 1.43,12André Bucher 64 1.43,17Yuriy Borzakovskiy 67 1.43,19Steve Cram 72 1.43,22Steve Cram 75 1.43,25Vebjørn Rodal 84 1.43,31André Bucher 91 1.43,34André Bucher 98 1.43,38Sebastian Coe 98 1.43,38Rich Kenah http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm That's 18, not 8! And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have a couple wrong here through not knowing who/what they are/were (ugly terminology, but we are playing this game)): 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram 13 1.42.90 André Bucher 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha 63 1.43.92 John Marshall 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe 72 1.43.98 Bram Som 73 1.43.9h José Marajo 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm That's 38... Please explain your sources... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete, particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South America. Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes to the top. Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those so-called great times of years ago pale
RE: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
i have tried to remove as many folks as possible from the lists in a similar straw-clutching fashion as Jon... At 11:09 AM 8/15/2001, malmo wrote: Cruz mostly African ancestry? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Andre Sammartino Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:32 PM To: P.F.Talbot Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws but the statement that 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry is still wrong... it can only be 82... it's just poor data collection undermining what are substantive claims... for what it's worth my view here is that the discussion is about probabilities... Entine is probably correct in that the probability of a given East African being capable of world class middle to long-distance performances is higher than a non-East African, and likewise that the probability of a West African being capable of world class sprint performances is higher than a non-West African... but it's only probabilities... the beauty of the stochastic nature of the process is that there are always freaks who mess with the numbers... so maybe it becomes an issue of freak frequency (almost went for the pun there)... and then there's hard work, training, opportunity, environment, discrimination, resources etc... uh-oh, we're back on this train again! why do we get sucked in? At 10:15 AM 8/15/2001, P.F.Talbot wrote: So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times in the top 100 all time, right? I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th). On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote: Jon, I don't understand where you are getting these numbers from... each time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is the 800m evidence you cite? my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time produces this list of non-africans 3 1.41,73Sebastian Coe 11 1.42,33Sebastian Coe 18 1.42,58Vebjørn Rodal 39 1.42,88Steve Cram 40 1.42,90André Bucher 42 1.42,92André Bucher 43 1.42,95Vebjørn Rodal 45 1.42,97Peter Elliott 54 1.43,07Sebastian Coe 60 1.43,12André Bucher 64 1.43,17Yuriy Borzakovskiy 67 1.43,19Steve Cram 72 1.43,22Steve Cram 75 1.43,25Vebjørn Rodal 84 1.43,31André Bucher 91 1.43,34André Bucher 98 1.43,38Sebastian Coe 98 1.43,38Rich Kenah http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm That's 18, not 8! And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have a couple wrong here through not knowing who/what they are/were (ugly terminology, but we are playing this game)): 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram 13 1.42.90 André Bucher 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha 63 1.43.92 John Marshall 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe 72 1.43.98 Bram Som 73 1.43.9h José Marajo 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm That's 38... Please explain your sources... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about why Brits will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of US, UK and Northern European stock that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete
