t-and-f: The list
This is to follow up concerns regarding the perceived drop-off in the quality of the list. One of the issues i have as a non-US participant (I reside "down under"), is that track and field is not the major topic of discussion over the period Oct, Nov, Dec etc, as the list gets extremely US-centric and College X-C etc becomes the focus. I have no particular problem with this, as I accept the majority of list members are interested in these comps. One issue for me (and perhaps others, i don't know), is that i don't actually have a complete grasp on the NCAA system. I don't understand what the purpose of Pre-Nats are - is it just to see the course/opposition or was there some value in performing in terms of qualification? In essence I have a series of questions that i couldn't find answers to very easily on the NCAA/collegerunning sites: 1. How do schools qualify for NCAA champs? 2. How do individuals qualify? 3. What is the role of divisional champs and how come some schools don't have a divisional alignment? 4. How do "at large" quals work? 5. Why are there no rankings/predictions of individuals' race results/rankings similar to the Team rankings? Background to my interest/questions and an example you might use to illustrate your explanation: an old clubmate of mine Marty Fedmowski is at Butler in Indianapolis... they don't seem to be in a conference... but they beat a couple of the ranked schools at Pre-Nats... what do they to qualify And he finished 9th in his Pre-nats Race and probably 25-26th overall... does this make any difference to his chance of running at Champs? Thanks in advance to anyone who can remedy my ignorance/confusion... And maybe this might serve as a reminder that not all on here are from the US and that your systems are far from transparent... (Other topics i might raise in the future include "what the hell is NAIA basketball and why would we see it on cable here?") Oh, and i love GH and Malmo's jokes... they lighten up what can be dreary reading... Thanks, Andre Sammartino A cog in the wheel of the Bayside machine 1999-2000, 2000-1 State League (Men's) Champions "Are you hip to our funky groove?" http://surf.to/bayside
t-and-f: the list
steve... i couldn't have said it any better! i can't take myself off this list though because I need to stay in the "loop." seriously, i think that's why a lot of us just stay on this board. every once in awhile, you'll read a message that really hits home. or you'll see a result that makes you drop your jaw. the list is kinda like a narcotic in itself. every now and then, you need that fix. i remember some of the great posts we had back in the day when i first got on this board (1996)... Remember when WSU didn't receive an invitation to NCAA XC's in '97??? The collegiate contributors were spilling their guts on this board! and i even remember when grote dropped an unintentional f-bomb (something related to a portland coach?), way before tnfmedia was around. ahh yes...the good ol' days. Happy list member (even if the drug issue gets out of control), Ryan P. McGuire
Re: t-and-f: The list
> And maybe this might serve as a reminder that not all on here are from the > US and that your systems are far from transparent... "Far from transparent" That's one of the nicest things I've ever heard said about the NCAA! Rest assured, Andre, that while many of us in the U.S. can manage to understand the system when it is laid out before us, many of us also feel that the NCAA is the embodiment of fascist intolerance in the sports world. To be fair, the current qualifying system can mostly be blamed on the NCAA coaches, not on the NCAA. I think somewhere along the line, a lot of people forgot that "pure" competition is not necessarily the same thing as "fair" competition - I'll take pure competition any day. I think I know most of the answers to the questions you asked about qualifying, but because I am not completely sure, I will let someone else give you the specifics. I will say that as far as I know, the pre-NCAA meet has no direct effect on qualifying for the NCAA championships, other than the fact that "at-large" berths in the championships are based partly on head-to-head competition during the season and the Pre-NCAA has an awful lot of the contenders going head to head. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: The list
> And maybe this might serve as a reminder that not all on here are from the > US and that your systems are far from transparent... "Far from transparent" That's one of the nicest things I've ever heard said about the NCAA! Rest assured, Andre, that while many of us in the U.S. can manage to understand the system when it is laid out before us, many of us also feel that the NCAA is the embodiment of fascist intolerance in the sports world. To be fair, the current qualifying system can mostly be blamed on the NCAA coaches, not on the NCAA. I think somewhere along the line, a lot of people forgot that "pure" competition is not necessarily the same thing as "fair" competition - I'll take pure competition any day. I think I know most of the answers to the questions you asked about qualifying, but because I am not completely sure, I will let someone else give you the specifics. I will say that as far as I know, the pre-NCAA meet has no direct effect on qualifying for the NCAA championships, other than the fact that "at-large" berths in the championships are based partly on head-to-head competition during the season and the Pre-NCAA has an awful lot of the contenders going head to head. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: The list
> And maybe this might serve as a reminder that not all on here are from the > US and that your systems are far from transparent... "Far from transparent" That's one of the nicest things I've ever heard said about the NCAA! Rest assured, Andre, that while many of us in the U.S. can manage to understand the system when it is laid out before us, many of us also feel that the NCAA is the embodiment of fascist intolerance in the sports world. To be fair, the current qualifying system can mostly be blamed on the NCAA coaches, not on the NCAA. I think somewhere along the line, a lot of people forgot that "pure" competition is not necessarily the same thing as "fair" competition - I'll take pure competition any day. I think I know most of the answers to the questions you asked about qualifying, but because I am not completely sure, I will let someone else give you the specifics. I will say that as far as I know, the pre-NCAA meet has no direct effect on qualifying for the NCAA championships, other than the fact that "at-large" berths in the championships are based partly on head-to-head competition during the season and the Pre-NCAA has an awful lot of the contenders going head to head. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: The list
http://www.ncaa.org/library/handbooks/indexF.html Click on "Division I Men's and Women's Cross Country" for rules summary. After you read the manual, GH and Malmo will seem funnier. Even oil spills may cause you to chuckle. Andre Sammartino wrote > In essence I have a series of questions that i couldn't find answers to > very easily on the NCAA/collegerunning sites: > > 1. How do schools qualify for NCAA champs? > 2. How do individuals qualify? > 3. What is the role of divisional champs and how come some schools don't > have a divisional alignment? > 4. How do "at large" quals work? > 5. Why are there no rankings/predictions of individuals' race > results/rankings similar to the Team rankings? > > Oh, and i love GH and Malmo's jokes... they lighten up what can be dreary > reading... > > Thanks, > > Andre Sammartino > A cog in the wheel of the Bayside machine > 1999-2000, 2000-1 State League (Men's) Champions > "Are you hip to our funky groove?" > http://surf.to/bayside
Re: t-and-f: the list
on 9/3/01 9:30 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > i couldn't have said it any better! i can't take myself off this list though > because I need to stay in the "loop." seriously, i think that's why a lot of > us just stay on this board. every once in awhile, you'll read a message that > really hits home. or you'll see a result that makes you drop your jaw. the > list is kinda like a narcotic in itself. every now and then, you need that > fix. i remember some of the great posts we had back in the day when i first > got on this board (1996)... Remember when WSU didn't receive an invitation to > NCAA XC's in '97??? The collegiate contributors were spilling their guts on > this board! > > and i even remember when grote dropped an unintentional f-bomb (something > related to a portland coach?), way before tnfmedia was around. > > ahh yes...the good ol' days. > > Happy list member (even if the drug issue gets out of control), > > Ryan P. McGuire Somtimes I do feel the drugs issue has got out of control, although perhaps not with regard to performance enhancing substances: more likely those with a social perspsective that I indulged in many years ago in the '60s, which of course I cannot remember. Randall Northam
Re: t-and-f: the list
Those were the days. Anyone still remember Mike Fox? G-Rex [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > steve... > > i couldn't have said it any better! i can't take myself off this list though >because I need to stay in the "loop." seriously, i think that's why a lot of us just >stay on this board. every once in awhile, you'll read a message that really hits >home. or you'll see a result that makes you drop your jaw. the list is kinda like a >narcotic in itself. every now and then, you need that fix. i remember some of the >great posts we had back in the day when i first got on this board (1996)... Remember >when WSU didn't receive an invitation to NCAA XC's in '97??? The collegiate >contributors were spilling their guts on this board! > > and i even remember when grote dropped an unintentional f-bomb (something related to >a portland coach?), way before tnfmedia was around. > > ahh yes...the good ol' days. > > Happy list member (even if the drug issue gets out of control), > > Ryan P. McGuire >
t-and-f: The list is well
Thanks to everyone who responded to my request for information on sprinting books. "Listers" were generous with their information and with their opinions. I would recommend to everyone that they use this list as a resource for track information. Sincerely, John Lunn
t-and-f: The List / Furman in 1997
I've been reading all of these posts lately, and the truth be told, I'm sick of it. I got on this list in the Fall of 1994, I took myself off in the Spring of 1999, and then I signed back up just a month and a half ago. While I too am upset over the state of this list, constantly complaining about it won't help. To my mind, two things have happened to this list since I got on in 1994. 1. Everyone gets results elsewhere. Back then, people were using Mosaic Web Browser. Quite a few people didn't even know what a Web Browser was. This list was the mecca for people who needed results. I remember taking Penn Relay Results out of the sports page of the Sunday NY Times and posting them. The results only went three deep, but that was all anyone on the West Coast had heard in the way of results. Now, just log on to any number of Web Sites and get all of the results you want. Why does this matter? The people who really have a passion for this sport are the ones who want the results. They were the ones who made the list a fun place to be. 2. Since the list has gotten so big, it is no longer a community. Everything is just so impersonal and boring. And the reason it's that way is because the average age of the person posting has probably gone from 21 to 45 in the last seven years. It's just more interesting when the people doing the running are the ones posting(Ned, Teddy, Special K, Scott MacDonald, Joe McVeigh, Bob Henes, Ryan Grote...)Now, instead of talking about races and results, we're talking about all sorts of esoteric garbage. So in the spirit of changing the tone, I am going to try to take everyone back to Fall 1997, the last year NCAAs were at Furman. Grote had just finished school and was an aspiring Track and Field journalist. He was a correspondent for Track and Field News. Goucher had won the Pre-NCAA meet in October. I was a Junior at NC State. Not surprisingly, the top 3 teams in 97(Stanford, Arkansas, and Colorado) are likely to be the top 3 teams in 2001. Arkansas ran Ryan Wilson, Sean Kaley, Phil Price, Murray Link, Adam Daily, and Seneca Lassiter. I can't remember whether Matt Kerr was redshirting, injured, or just wasn't in the top seven. Regardless, it is difficult to imagine how these guys lost. Seriously, did Sean Kaley ever not finish in the top 10 at NCAAs? Though I didn't witness this first hand, the story goes that Arkansas took the race out from the gun. Ryan Wilson was the early leader. So who did Arkansas lose to? Stanford, yeah we all know that, but who were those guys? Nathan Nutter, Jason Balkman, The Hausers(Frick and Frack), and some freshman named Riley. Much had been made of the fact that Stanford ran a completely American team when they won the title in Tuscon the year before. Well they did it again in 1997. How would you like to have been Colorado, who ran 5 all americans, had Goucher, and get third? They ran Goucher, Adam Batliner, Tom Reese, Matt Napier, and Ron Roybal. Clint Wells, who had been a Steeple finalist at the Trials in 1996 had an off race, finishing out of their top five Michigan had a couple of decent runners...Sullivan, Mortimer, and Todd Snyder. Wisconsin was 5th, NC State 6th. Florida broke the then magic number of 600, finishing last. Remember, before 1998, it was still only a 22 team field. Which brings me to the race tomorrow and the upcoming NCAA meet. The golf course at Furman did a good job holding 22 teams, but it will be strained with 31 teams. As I count it now, there are going to be 37 teams in each of the two races tomorrow. That is just going to be nuts, especially the first turn. I'd stay left, initially. Then when the runners make that turn around the green, somebody is likely to take a spill. They had to split the race. Having 74 teams in the field is ridiculous. What I would have done, and I'm not sure that they didn't do this, but I'd make an effort to separate comparable teams that happen to be in the same district(like keeping Eastern Michigan and Michigan State in different races). They'll work out their differences at the district meet. ] Oh well, I'm not sure where this went or what it was intended to accomplish, but I'm cutting it off now. I'm not going to be there tomorrow, but I'll be there for the real thing. Go Pack! robbie howell my apologies to anyone over the age of 25, especially Walt Murphy and Dave Johnson, two great emissaries for the sport.
