Re: [Tagging] Proposal to Change Road Classification, Road Surface, Road Condition, and Add Number of Lanes

2016-03-08 Thread David Bannon
Wow Alberto, you have put a lot of thought into this. I agree its needed 
and think the model would serve us a lot better than the way its done 
now. But I see a couple of problems, first, we have a huge data set 
using the existing model. Very hard to change that. Secondly, I suspect 
not all contributers to OSM are familiar with the sort of roads that 
have prompted your proposal. So, wide spread support may be a bit hard 
to find.


But I'd be the last to suggest you give up something just because its 
impossible !


So, lets pick it over.

Firstly, maybe your categories might need to be a bit finer grained.  
For example, the jump, in Rural, 3 Tertiary and 4 Unclassified is too 
big. I live on a rural road, its not a connecting road and it is owned 
and maintained (occasionally) by the Municipality.  So its definitely a 
public access road but not one a routing engine should consider (except 
start and end stages of course). Such roads are very common.


I am not sure I like the classification you use for C Road Condition. It 
seems a bit too focused on maintenance models rather than providing an 
indication of how a traveler might find it. I suggest what a map (or 
whatever) user wants to know is "should I use this road ?". And that, of 
course, is dependent on vehicle, maybe affected by weather, maintenance 
cycles and so on.


Alberto, I'd like to see this model refined, lets make out that we are 
starting fresh, get it right and then look to see if some of the result 
can be incorporated into the current model, or even a long term transition ?


David

On 06/03/16 01:25, Alberto wrote:


Dear OSM staff, contributors, and users:

I have read the definitions, concepts and description that OSM uses to 
characterize (tag) roads and noticed that OSM does not establish the 
difference between inter-urban (rural) roads and urban roads 
(comprising mostly avenues and streets). Therefore, I propose to 
*replace the existing OSM road classification with a "functional 
classification"* that would allow OSM *"to better model and better 
visualize"* the actual road network. I have noticed that you have been 
challenged to adapt to the differences found in each country. If the 
following classification is adopted, it will be a "*universal 
standard*" and you will not need to adopt different criteria for 
developed or developing countries, like the OSM example for East Africa.


It would be useful to define a road class (paved/unpaved) and a road 
surface type (concrete, asphalt, surface treatment, gravel, earth). I 
also propose to reduce the options for road condition to only five 
categories defined by the need for maintenance or rehabilitation. I 
can provide a technical definition using the International Roughness 
Index (IRI) for paved and unpaved roads.



I am fully aware that these changes present a major challenge for the 
existing, coding, renderer, editors, etc. However, I am confident that 
introducing these changes (and adding the number of lanes) will not 
only simplify the mapping tasks, but would substantially improve the 
quality of the OMS products, particularly given the fact that many 
other layers are highly dependent on the quality of the road network.



I am a Civil Engineer (MS Stanford) with training on urban planning 
(MIT) with more than 20 years of experience working with international 
organizations like the World Bank and the African Development Bank on 
roads and highways in more than 50 countries, but mostly in 
Sub-Saharan Africa, South America, South Asia, East Asia and the 
Pacific, and Eastern Europe.


Alberto Nogales

202-257-8726


*A. FUNCTIONAL ROAD CLASSIFICATION for "Motor Vehicles":*

*
*

*Rural (Inter-Urban) Roads - Located outside of urban areas*

*Classified Road Network. *Generally falls under the responsibility of 
the National, Provincial (State), Municipal/Local Government to build, 
operate and maintain.


*1.* *Primary* Roads - National, Main, Trunk Roads outside of
urban areas that connect the main population and economic centers
of the country. Typically under the responsibility of the National
Government and with high levels of traffic.

*2.* *Secondary* Roads - Regional, State, Provincial Roads are the
main feeder routes into, and provide the main links between
primary roads. Typically under the responsibility of the
Provincial Government and with medium levels of traffic.

*3.* *Tertiary* Roads - Municipal, Local, Rural Roads that connect
the smaller towns to intermediate cities. Typically under the
responsibility of the Local Governments and with low levels of
traffic.

*Unclassified Road Network.*

*4. Unclassified* Roads. Mostly private roads or of unknown
responsibility to build and operate. Typically maintained by local
communities or by private mining, forestry, or agricultural
enterprises.

*Urban Network- Located within the boundaries of urban areas*

*1/2/3.* *Highway.* [Expres

Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

2016-03-08 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2016-03-08 12:06 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> They are official dealers, and sell both used and new cars of all those
> makes. Drool for yourself... http://www.louwmanexclusive.com/
>
> Anyway the point is that. despite the Belgian situation that Marc
> describes, examples where multiple brands are sold from the same showroom.
>

Actually it doesn't look as if they sell new cars, at least I couldn't find
them (but haven't looked too long). Even if by the pictures they seem new,
there is always something like "2014 model", "only 6000 km" or similar if
you look at the details. They also don't seem to be official dealers, I had
a quick look at Bentley's search and they list them only as official
service place but not as dealer:
http://www.bentleymotors.com/en/apps/dealer-locator.html/search/utrecht/type-sales

Now I don't know how important the "official" part is for OSM, maybe this
could be discussed (I am not completely opposing the idea to add any type
of dealer that sells cars by that brand, because if you need an official
list you can already get this from the manufacturer).

I agree that there might be dealers selling different brands from the same
showroom, even if I haven't encountered it yet (besides those from the same
"mother", e.g. Bentley and Bugatti at a Volkswagen / Audi dealer, Rolls
Royce and Mini at a BMW, Jaguar and Land Rover at a Tata, etc.).

I would handle it like this: if there are specific brands, tag it like
this, if there aren't, don't.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

2016-03-08 Thread Colin Smale
They are official dealers, and sell both used and new cars of all those
makes. Drool for yourself... http://www.louwmanexclusive.com/ 

Anyway the point is that. despite the Belgian situation that Marc
describes, examples where multiple brands are sold from the same
showroom. We cannot deny that it exists, so we need to handle it
(gracefully) in OSM, or explicitly exclude it from OSM. 

//colin 

On 2016-03-08 11:15, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> 2016-03-07 13:27 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :
> 
>> Have to? Is there some law or regulation in Belgium? Or is it a choice of 
>> the brands themselves?
> 
> it is the brands that impose this.
> 
>> My BMW dealer (in NL) also does Mini, from the same building, at the same 
>> desk (for maintenance anyway).
> 
> because they are the same, it's different names (or brands if you wish) for 
> the same car producer / company (BMW).
> 
>> Next door is a dealer for Rolls-Royce, TVR, McClaren, Lexus, Lamborghini and 
>> others all in one building.
> 
> Rolls-Royce is also BWM, Lexus is Toyota though, Lamborghini is VW/Audi. TVR 
> is an independent manufacturer. Not sure why these are all mixed, maybe 
> that's not an official dealer (do they also sell new cars, or only used 
> ones?).
> 
> Cheers, 
> Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Draft of proposal tag 'sells' for shops..

2016-03-08 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2016-03-07 13:27 GMT+01:00 Colin Smale :

> Have to? Is there some law or regulation in Belgium? Or is it a choice of
> the brands themselves?



it is the brands that impose this.



> My BMW dealer (in NL) also does Mini, from the same building, at the same
> desk (for maintenance anyway).



because they are the same, it's different names (or brands if you wish) for
the same car producer / company (BMW).



> Next door is a dealer for Rolls-Royce, TVR, McClaren, Lexus, Lamborghini
> and others all in one building.



Rolls-Royce is also BWM, Lexus is Toyota though, Lamborghini is VW/Audi.
TVR is an independent manufacturer. Not sure why these are all mixed, maybe
that's not an official dealer (do they also sell new cars, or only used
ones?).

Cheers,
Martin
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