Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[Allan Mustard]

Sounds to me like the OSM wiki article in question was written by a non-expert 
in banking and finance and should be corrected/expanded.
Cheers, apm-wa

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 24, 2018, at 12:08 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 12:45 AM Allan Mustard  wrote:
>> Well, a central bank is a bank, after all, whether it is owned by the 
>> government or is a "private" parastatal organization.  I would tag it as 
>> amenity=bank since it is a bank.  Not all banks offer consumer services, so 
>> the fact that an individual cannot open an account in a central bank doesn't 
>> disqualify it.  Individuals cannot open accounts in the Bank for 
>> International Settlements, either, but it is a bank.  A central bank is a 
>> specialized bank that serves the government (controls the monetary system) 
>> and the commercial banking sector.  That's why it is called a "central" bank.
>> 
>> >  It also wouldn't be tagged as a bank, because it doesn't have accounts & 
>> > you can't go in & deposit / withdraw cash, or take out a loan.
>> 
>> Maybe you and I cannot, but the commercial banks in that country can.  It's 
>> a bank.
>> 
> 
> While central banks are certainly banks in and of themselves, I think tagging 
> central banks as plain amenity=bank *without other qualifying tags* is a 
> tricky one, and might constitute as expanding the definition of what 
> amenity=bank is on the OSM wiki. The OSM wiki states that an amenity=bank 
> feature is a  "financial establishment where customers can, among other 
> services, deposit and withdraw money, take loans, make investments and 
> transfer funds". I would think that the word "customer" in OSM is intended to 
> refer to people and regular businesses, and this is why such establishments 
> are under the amenity=* key. Unlike regular banks, central banks usually only 
> have other banks and their government as their sole customers and in many 
> countries, central banks act as a regulatory agency for banks and other 
> financial institutions, set country-wide fiscal policies like interest rates, 
> and print/mint their countries' currencies. It therefore makes sense to tag 
> central banks somewhat differently from other banks.
> 
> I would also like to note that in my country, we do have a central bank, but 
> we also have two 100%-government owned commercial banks, established by law, 
> that I would not hesitate to tag as amenity=bank because they offer financial 
> services to the public at large.
> 
> As for the current proposal, in my country, we currently tag central bank 
> land as landuse=commercial. It might make sense to switch this to 
> landuse=governmental (or some other keyword as may be decided by OSM) if this 
> proposal pushes through.
> 
> ~Eugene
> 
>  
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 12:45 AM Allan Mustard  wrote:

> Well, a central bank is a bank, after all, whether it is owned by the
> government or is a "private" parastatal organization.  I would tag it as
> amenity=bank since it is a bank.  Not all banks offer consumer services, so
> the fact that an individual cannot open an account in a central bank
> doesn't disqualify it.  Individuals cannot open accounts in the Bank for
> International Settlements, either, but it is a bank.  A central bank is a
> specialized bank that serves the government (controls the monetary system)
> and the commercial banking sector.  That's why it is called a "central"
> bank.
>
> >  It also wouldn't be tagged as a bank, because it doesn't have accounts
> & you can't go in & deposit / withdraw cash, or take out a loan.
>
> Maybe you and I cannot, but the commercial banks in that country can.
> It's a bank.
>

While central banks are certainly banks in and of themselves, I think
tagging central banks as plain amenity=bank *without other qualifying tags*
is a tricky one, and might constitute as expanding the definition of what
amenity=bank is on the OSM wiki. The OSM wiki states that an amenity=bank
feature is a  "financial establishment where customers can, among other
services, deposit and withdraw money, take loans, make investments and
transfer funds". I would think that the word "customer" in OSM is intended
to refer to people and regular businesses, and this is why such
establishments are under the amenity=* key. Unlike regular banks, central
banks usually only have other banks and their government as their sole
customers and in many countries, central banks act as a regulatory agency
for banks and other financial institutions, set country-wide fiscal
policies like interest rates, and print/mint their countries' currencies.
It therefore makes sense to tag central banks somewhat differently from
other banks.

I would also like to note that in my country, we do have a central bank,
but we also have two 100%-government owned commercial banks, established by
law, that I would not hesitate to tag as amenity=bank because they offer
financial services to the public at large.

As for the current proposal, in my country, we currently tag central bank
land as landuse=commercial. It might make sense to switch this to
landuse=governmental (or some other keyword as may be decided by OSM) if
this proposal pushes through.

~Eugene
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 110, Issue 135 Trans Alaska oil line

[Dave Swarthout]

Hi Nick,

No, I had not. But it's a good suggestion.

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 5:35 AM St Niklaas  wrote:

> Hi Dave,
>
>
> Did you thought about movable=yes just as an extra value ?
>
>
> Greetz
>
>

-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks Alan, once again you make perfect sense!

Graeme
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[Tagging] antenna type

[Warin]

Hi,

I was looking at the wiki for antennas

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna


I made some additions to the definition and added some photos etc.

It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define what 
the antenna is.



Unfortunately on the German wiki there is the use of antenna:type .. 
with a confusing set of values.


(eg communication, special, parabolic_satellit, 
parabolic_satellit_uplink, radar)



These appear to be the use of the antenna.

Perhaps this could be antenna:use=radio/TV/radar/wifi/cell_phone

I don't think 'communication' is a good tag - any antenna performs the 
function of communication.


Similar for satellite (note last 'e' for British English), that might be 
all you can tell from the configuration and direction of the antenna but 
does not define its use.



Then the 'type' of antenna .. better described as antenna:configuration ?

Values could be monopole, dipole, yagi, dish ... yes dish will have sub 
tags for the feed system etc.



Broad thoughts?

Not after detail at this stage but antenna:type to others such as;

antenna:use?

antenna:configuration?

antenna:mode=tx/rx/2way for the direction of communication?




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 110, Issue 135 Trans Alaska oil line

[St Niklaas]

Hi Dave,


Did you thought about movable=yes just as an extra value ?


Greetz

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Re: [Tagging] Add some tag to identify disputed borders

[Andy Townsend]

On 23/11/2018 16:33, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:30 PM SelfishSeahorse 
mailto:selfishseaho...@gmail.com>> wrote:


1. 'inner' roles (and thus 'outer' roles too) are still needed in
case a country has enclaves.


Even if a country has exclaves and/or has enclaves within it, you 
still don't need to have "inner" and "outer" roles at all in order to 
make sense of the (multi)polygon.


Spatial databases may not need them, but humans editing the data (at the 
very least, this human) find them very useful.


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [Tagging] Add some tag to identify disputed borders

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 17:35, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:30 PM SelfishSeahorse  
> wrote:
>>
>> 1. 'inner' roles (and thus 'outer' roles too) are still needed in case a 
>> country has enclaves.
>
>
> Even if a country has exclaves and/or has enclaves within it, you still don't 
> need to have "inner" and "outer" roles at all in order to make sense of the 
> (multi)polygon. They are there as a hint to fix hopelessly broken 
> multipolygon relations, but if such a relation is not broken, the "inner" and 
> "outer" roles are actually superfluous. For instance, the program osm2pgsql 
> actually has a check function named "check_inner_outer_roles"[1] to identify 
> relation member ways having the wrong roles in a type=multipolygon or 
> type=boundary relation. It is able to do this check precisely because it is 
> able to analyze a multipolygon relation and be able to infer the correct 
> roles for itself.
>
> We should be therefore able to repurpose the roles in a type=boundary 
> relation to store information about claimed, "de facto", and "de jure" 
> borders.
>
> [1] 
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/osm2pgsql/blob/93b73e5f5c3b20e80027ecf272f553d26f49f2e8/contrib/libosmium/osmium/area/detail/basic_assembler.hpp#L172

Thank you for this information and for correcting me!

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=governmental

[Allan Mustard]

Well, a central bank is a bank, after all, whether it is owned by the
government or is a "private" parastatal organization.  I would tag it as
amenity=bank since it is a bank.  Not all banks offer consumer services,
so the fact that an individual cannot open an account in a central bank
doesn't disqualify it.  Individuals cannot open accounts in the Bank for
International Settlements, either, but it is a bank.  A central bank is
a specialized bank that serves the government (controls the monetary
system) and the commercial banking sector.  That's why it is called a
"central" bank.

>  It also wouldn't be tagged as a bank, because it doesn't have
accounts & you can't go in & deposit / withdraw cash, or take out a loan.

Maybe you and I cannot, but the commercial banks in that country can. 
It's a bank.

cheers,
apm

On 11/23/2018 3:20 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 07:04, SelfishSeahorse
> mailto:selfishseaho...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> You're right, most central banks are independent from politics, but
> aren't they called governmental institutions nevertheless? Or rather
> state institutions? (I'm not so fluent in English and not an expert on
> state/economy.)
>
>
> Tricky one!
>
> For instance, the Reserve Bank of Australia is wholly owned by the
> Commonwealth of Australia, but it isn't classified as a Government
> Department. It's been tagged as a building=government
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/299845167#map=19/-33.86818/151.21169
> В 
>
> How would you tag the land use of an independent central bank?
> Certainly not commercial.
>
>
> I "think" that yes, it probably should / would be? What are the
> options? It's certainly not either retail or industrial. Government -
> not if it's independent, which really only leaves commercial?
>
> It also wouldn't be tagged as a bank, because it doesn't have accounts
> & you can't go in & deposit / withdraw cash, or take out a loan.
>
> So =government if it's government owned; =commercial if it's private;
> not tagged as a bank, but named Reserve / Central Bank of Somewhere.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tracks for moveable large objects

[Allan Mustard]

If it is moveable it is a gantry crane.  A gantry per se can be
immobile, right?

That aside, rails are rails.  Maybe not a rail line in the conventional
sense, but I tagged an (unfortunately disused) children's train in
Ashgabat https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/429019713 as a railway even
though it goes around and around, or used to, and has no destination.

light_rail  unused
name 
Parawozik
name:en 
Children's Toy Train
name:ru 
Детская железная дорога
railway 
disused

usage 
tourism


On 11/23/2018 2:28 PM, Michael Patrick wrote:
>
> Some radio telescopes are located on what could be called rail
> lines. ...
> though these lines have to carry more localised weight and have a
> much
> larger track width. For a photo see
> http://www.atnf.csiro.au/resources/imagebank/images/ATCA_in_a_line.jpg
>
> Ideas for suitable tags for these 'rail lines'?
>
>
> 'Rails' certainly, but not 'rail lines' in the conventional sense., in
> that a rail line implies an origin and destination ( in the 'railroad'
> sense ), in this case all are parts of a single device, albeit a very
> large one.
>
> A movable support structure primarily constrained in the horizontal
> plane is known as a *gantry* (system). The constrained path might be
> pavement, rails, sprockets and the movement contact point might be
> wheels, slides, skates, airbags, tracks, pivot, or some such. The path
> might be straight as for cranes or circular in the case of irrigation
> systems, and other geometries that might include switches. They range
> in size from tabletops
>  to almost a
> kilometer
> 
> in some mining and agriculture operations
> .
> Their purpose and action differ from railway / rail line (etc.)  -
> i.e. primarily positioning
>  vs.
> transport.
>
> Michael Patrick
>
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Re: [Tagging] Add some tag to identify disputed borders

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:30 PM SelfishSeahorse 
wrote:

> 1. 'inner' roles (and thus 'outer' roles too) are still needed in case a
> country has enclaves.
>

Even if a country has exclaves and/or has enclaves within it, you still
don't need to have "inner" and "outer" roles at all in order to make sense
of the (multi)polygon. They are there as a hint to fix hopelessly broken
multipolygon relations, but if such a relation is not broken, the "inner"
and "outer" roles are actually superfluous. For instance, the program
osm2pgsql actually has a check function named "check_inner_outer_roles"[1]
to identify relation member ways having the wrong roles in a
type=multipolygon or type=boundary relation. It is able to do this check
precisely because it is able to analyze a multipolygon relation and be able
to infer the correct roles for itself.

We should be therefore able to repurpose the roles in a type=boundary
relation to store information about claimed, "de facto", and "de jure"
borders.

[1]
https://github.com/openstreetmap/osm2pgsql/blob/93b73e5f5c3b20e80027ecf272f553d26f49f2e8/contrib/libosmium/osmium/area/detail/basic_assembler.hpp#L172
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[Tagging] How to map a sliding section of the Alaska Pipeline

[Dave Swarthout]

This isn't a big issue but Warin's post about rails used to move big
objects.  Then someone replied with some illustrations of gantries and that
triggered my curiosity.   There is a short section of the Trans-Alaska
pipeline that crosses a well-known fault line where it is attached to
slides to allow lateral movement in case of an earthquake. I split the
pipeline way and added a note to the section but that probably isn't
visible to most data consumers.

Any ideas?

Photo here
:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/209xatghack8m35/Trans_Alaska_Pipeline_Denali_fault_shift.jpg?dl=0

-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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[Tagging] Tracks for moveable large objects

[Michael Patrick]

>
> Some radio telescopes are located on what could be called rail lines. ...
> though these lines have to carry more localised weight and have a much
> larger track width. For a photo see
> http://www.atnf.csiro.au/resources/imagebank/images/ATCA_in_a_line.jpg
>
> Ideas for suitable tags for these 'rail lines'?
>

'Rails' certainly, but not 'rail lines' in the conventional sense., in that
a rail line implies an origin and destination ( in the 'railroad' sense ),
in this case all are parts of a single device, albeit a very large one.

A movable support structure primarily constrained in the horizontal plane
is known as a *gantry* (system). The constrained path might be pavement,
rails, sprockets and the movement contact point might be wheels, slides,
skates, airbags, tracks, pivot, or some such. The path might be straight as
for cranes or circular in the case of irrigation systems, and other
geometries that might include switches. They range in size from tabletops
 to almost a kilometer

in some mining and agriculture operations
.
Their purpose and action differ from railway / rail line (etc.)  - i.e.
primarily positioning
 vs.
transport.

Michael Patrick
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