[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Tag:shelter_type=rock_shelter

[Andrew Harvey]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:shelter_type%3Drock_shelter
is
open for voting now.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 22:44, António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> In Portugal, the Government's employment centre gets you a job and gives
> you professional formation. It has  a list of all the companies seeking
> for workers and distribute them based a very specific system.
>

That's about the same as the UK.  There's a website listing available
jobs which you can use whether you're employed or unemployed and the
lists of jobs in the centres themselves have largely disappeared.

The money that comes from the Government to people without job is given
> via Social Security, it's not handed by the employment centre.


That's how it used to be in the UK.  The Benefits Agency used to
handled the money side of things.  But it was almost always in the
same building as the Jobcentre.  Then the government realized
it could almalgamate the two, so the Jobcentre became the
Jobcentre+.

Given these arguments, I'm getting more inclined to use
> office=government + government=employment_centre
>

I like employment_centre more than employment_agency for
the government-run endeavour.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

[António Madeira via Tagging]

In Portugal, the Government's employment centre gets you a job and gives
you professional formation. It has  a list of all the companies seeking
for workers and distribute them based a very specific system.
The money that comes from the Government to people without job is given
via Social Security, it's not handed by the employment centre. The
function of the employment centre is only to get people a job and give
them professional formation if needed.
Given these arguments, I'm getting more inclined to use
office=government + government=employment_centre


Às 18:23 de 11/10/2020, Graeme Fitzpatrick escreveu:

We have a Govt Dept that controls everything, decides whether you will
be paid Unemployment Benefits (under a number of different names), but
does nothing about you actually getting a job. This would be an
office=government.

You then have to register with a private Job Agency that will
supposedly help you find a job, but which don't actually do much :-(,
but which would be mapped as an office=employment_agency. They don't
pay you, but are themselves paid by the Govt for "helping" you.




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 05:14, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 19:46, António Madeira via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> Although an employment centre is not an office that governs, like Tom
>> Pfeifer wrote, (nevertheless we could argue they govern/regulate the
>> unemployed and the work market)
>>
>
> If employing civil servants to take money from people is
> government then so is employing civil servants to give money to the
> unemployed.
>
>
>> it operates very differently from an employment agency (the difference in
>> the name is not incidental)
>>
>
The Oz set-up is similarish.

We have a Govt Dept that controls everything, decides whether you will be
paid Unemployment Benefits (under a number of different names), but does
nothing about you actually getting a job. This would be an
office=government.

You then have to register with a private Job Agency that will supposedly
help you find a job, but which don't actually do much :-(, but which would
be mapped as an office=employment_agency. They don't pay you, but are
themselves paid by the Govt for "helping" you.

As per everything, you're never going to get a one-size fits all answer!

The day I can claim unemployment benefits from employment agencies
> is the day I look very carefully at which of them is going to give me
> the most money before I choose to sign up with one.
>

We've got the same basic amount across the board, but with variations due
to your age, married / single, renting a premises etc

Nevertheless, office=government  + government=employment_agency may be as
> close as we're going to get
>

That sounds like the closest match to the OPs question

without many weeks of arguments on the list.
>

*Nooo *

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How do you map traffic signals where right or left turns are allowed or not allowed on a red light?

[Supaplex]

Isn't it sufficient to use this red_turn-tagging at the traffic light
(instead of a turn relation), since it restricts to whom the traffic
light applies? General turning rules remain unaffected.

This tagging obviously comes from the German-speaking area (see also
TagInfo map), because there is the "green arrow" sign on some traffic
lights (originally invented in the GDR, later adopted in other countries
all over the world): It allows to turn right at red light. In China, the
same regulation applies as in the USA (turning at red light always
allowed unless other signing).

Alex

Am 11.10.20 um 18:11 schrieb Joseph Eisenberg:
> In North America (since we hate pedestrians) usually it is legal to turn
> right at a red light (we drive on the right side of the road, so a right
> turn only involves crossing into one lane).
>
> At some intersections where there are many pedestrians, there are signs
> that say "no turn on red", or sometimes "no turn on red except bicycles".
>
> Should this be mapped as a Relation:restriction? For example, a relation
> with "restriction=no_turn_on_red" + "except=bicycle"?
>
> Alternatively, I see there is a tag used in Europe in the form
> "red_turn:right:bicycle=yes" + "red_turn:right=no" - this would mean that
> bicycles may turn red at a traffic signal but other vehicles may not turn.
> This is documented at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Red_turn
>
> That tag is also used when right turns are allowed, e.g.
> "red_turn:left=yes", when this would not always be expected. It's most
> often used in Dresden.
>
> Oddly, it is proposed on the page that you could also use
> "red_turn:straight:bicycle=yes" to say that "bicycles are allowed to go
> straight at this traffic light when it is red", but this sounds very
> strange to me.
>
> I wonder if "red turn" is a translation from German or another language?
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 19:46, António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

Although an employment centre is not an office that governs, like Tom
> Pfeifer wrote, (nevertheless we could argue they govern/regulate the
> unemployed and the work market)
>

That depends how you define government.  Is the department that collects/
enforces income tax government or not?  I'd say it is, not just because it
acts
to enforce and not just because without the monies it collects the
government
could not operate.  If employing civil servants to take money from people is
government then so is employing civil servants to give money to the
unemployed.


> it operates very differently from an employment agency (the difference in
> the name is not incidental)
>

The day I can claim unemployment benefits from employment agencies
is the day I look very carefully at which of them is going to give me
the most money before I choose to sign up with one.


> and I think that should be stated or even differentiated in the wiki.
>

I think we got deflected by considering Jobcentres (or whatever they're
called elsewhere) to be employment agencies.  That is only part of
what they do.  Nevertheless, office=government  +
government=employment_agency may be as close as we're going to get
without many weeks of arguments on the list.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

[António Madeira via Tagging]

Portugal has a very similar social structure from that of England's , so
I relate to what you wrote.
Although an employment centre is not an office that governs, like Tom
Pfeifer wrote, (nevertheless we could argue they govern/regulate the
unemployed and the work market) it operates very differently from an
employment agency (the difference in the name is not incidental) and I
think that should be stated or even differentiated in the wiki.


Às 09:07 de 11/10/2020, Paul Allen escreveu:

Sigh.  Managed to hit some keystroke combination on this damned
laptop that triggered a send.  Now what I intended to write...

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 02:16, António Madeira via Tagging
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

Anyway, maybe the wiki could be updated to reflect the entire scope of
the office=employment_agency

Perhaps.  With qualifications and exceptions.  In the UK there were
differences between Jobcentres and employment agencies. Those
differences became more pronounced when Jobcentres turned
into Jobcentres+ (or is that Jobcentre+s?).

Employment agencies are happy to have you on their books even if you are
currently employed and many will notify you by e-mail if suitable
opportunities
arise; Jobcentres deal with the unemployed who are looking for work.

If you sign up with an employment agency you do not receive any
money for doing so; signing up with a Jobcentre is how you
qualify for unemployment benefit.

[Now the new/fixed stuff]

Jobcentres merged with the Benefits Agency (which handled benefits
other than unemployment benefits) and so pay out money for more
than just unemployment; employment agencies don't pay out any of
those benefits either.

Jobcentres are staffed by civil servants and are part of the
Department of Work and Pensions (a branch of government);
employment agencies are non-governmental.

I'd say UK Jobcentre+s are definitely office=government rather
than office=employment_agency because they ARE government
offices and do things that employment agencies do not.
I'd settle for government=employment_agency even though
they do more than just that.

--
Paul




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How do you map traffic signals where right or left turns are allowed or not allowed on a red light?

[yo paseopor]

Here in Europe that situation starts to be assumed by big cities who love
bicycles. It is a new regulation you can find in Paris or Barcelona.
Now we can ride our bikes in oneways streets as oneway:bicycle=no and also
this possibility of turn in red traffic lights. Also these days we start to
find some crossings where we can go straight in bicycle (as the right case)
Red turn is from English and I suspect is from someone who is not English
native like me. I understand "Giro rojo" de Giro en rojo" (turn right at
red?). I think it is not bad for a osm tag.

https://www.elperiodico.cat/ca/societat/20150719/els-ciclistes-proposen-imitar-paris-i-permetre-a-les-bicis-saltar-se-el-vermell-4369313

Ara més que mai salut i mapes
More than ever Health and maps
yopaseopor




Libre
de virus. www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 6:15 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> In North America (since we hate pedestrians) usually it is legal to turn
> right at a red light (we drive on the right side of the road, so a right
> turn only involves crossing into one lane).
>
> At some intersections where there are many pedestrians, there are signs
> that say "no turn on red", or sometimes "no turn on red except bicycles".
>
> Should this be mapped as a Relation:restriction? For example, a relation
> with "restriction=no_turn_on_red" + "except=bicycle"?
>
> Alternatively, I see there is a tag used in Europe in the form
> "red_turn:right:bicycle=yes" + "red_turn:right=no" - this would mean that
> bicycles may turn red at a traffic signal but other vehicles may not turn.
> This is documented at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Red_turn
>
> That tag is also used when right turns are allowed, e.g.
> "red_turn:left=yes", when this would not always be expected. It's most
> often used in Dresden.
>
> Oddly, it is proposed on the page that you could also use
> "red_turn:straight:bicycle=yes" to say that "bicycles are allowed to go
> straight at this traffic light when it is red", but this sounds very
> strange to me.
>
> I wonder if "red turn" is a translation from German or another language?
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] How do you map traffic signals where right or left turns are allowed or not allowed on a red light?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

In North America (since we hate pedestrians) usually it is legal to turn
right at a red light (we drive on the right side of the road, so a right
turn only involves crossing into one lane).

At some intersections where there are many pedestrians, there are signs
that say "no turn on red", or sometimes "no turn on red except bicycles".

Should this be mapped as a Relation:restriction? For example, a relation
with "restriction=no_turn_on_red" + "except=bicycle"?

Alternatively, I see there is a tag used in Europe in the form
"red_turn:right:bicycle=yes" + "red_turn:right=no" - this would mean that
bicycles may turn red at a traffic signal but other vehicles may not turn.
This is documented at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Red_turn

That tag is also used when right turns are allowed, e.g.
"red_turn:left=yes", when this would not always be expected. It's most
often used in Dresden.

Oddly, it is proposed on the page that you could also use
"red_turn:straight:bicycle=yes" to say that "bicycles are allowed to go
straight at this traffic light when it is red", but this sounds very
strange to me.

I wonder if "red turn" is a translation from German or another language?

-- Joseph Eisenberg
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

[Paul Allen]

Sigh.  Managed to hit some keystroke combination on this damned
laptop that triggered a send.  Now what I intended to write...

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 02:16, António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

Anyway, maybe the wiki could be updated to reflect the entire scope of
> the office=employment_agency
>

Perhaps.  With qualifications and exceptions.  In the UK there were
differences between Jobcentres and employment agencies.  Those
differences became more pronounced when Jobcentres turned
into Jobcentres+ (or is that Jobcentre+s?).

Employment agencies are happy to have you on their books even if you are
currently employed and many will notify you by e-mail if suitable
opportunities
arise; Jobcentres deal with the unemployed who are looking for work.

If you sign up with an employment agency you do not receive any
money for doing so; signing up with a Jobcentre is how you
qualify for unemployment benefit.

[Now the new/fixed stuff]

Jobcentres merged with the Benefits Agency (which handled benefits
other than unemployment benefits) and so pay out money for more
than just unemployment; employment agencies don't pay out any of
those benefits either.

Jobcentres are staffed by civil servants and are part of the
Department of Work and Pensions (a branch of government);
employment agencies are non-governmental.

I'd say UK Jobcentre+s are definitely office=government rather
than office=employment_agency because they ARE government
offices and do things that employment agencies do not.
I'd settle for government=employment_agency even though
they do more than just that.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 02:16, António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> Anyway, maybe the wiki could be updated to reflect the entire scope of
> the office=employment_agency
>

Perhaps.  With qualifications and exceptions.  In the UK there were
differences between Jobcentres and employment agencies.  Those
differences became more pronounced when Jobcentres turned
into Jobcentres+ (or is that Jobcentre+s?).

Employment agencies are happy to have you on their books even if you are
currently employed and many will notify you by e-mail if suitable
opportunities
arise; Jobcentres deal with the unemployed who are looking for work.

If you sign up with an employment agency you do not receive any
money for doing so; signing up with a Jobcentre is how you
qualify for unemployment benefit.

Jobcentres merged with the Benefits Agency (which handled benefits
benefits such as discretionary gran
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] bicycle lane on mini-rounabout

[Emvee via Tagging]

How do I tag a bicycle lane (way.Type element on a mini-roundabout
(node-type element)?.
Example:
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/-yxlx8FNVBHgMC7LH9eFNA



I would say cycleway=lane.

Remarkable enough no node with highway=mini_roundabout is currently
mapped with cycleway=* so you would be the first.

On why this is not common. I did do a Overpass query on
highway=mini_roundabout where the connecting ways have cycleway=* for a
bbox covering the Netherlands

[out:xml][timeout:90][bbox:{{bbox}}];
(
  node["highway"="mini_roundabout"];
)->.mras;
.mras < ->.ws;
way.ws["highway"] ->.result;
(.result;>;);
out meta;

I checked about 15 mini_roundabout's for which there is Mapillary
imaginary and there is no cycle lane at the mini_roundabout.

Thinking as cyclist this makes sense to me, on a small roundabouts (so
"small" roads) I like to drive more to the middle of the road so cars
are not temped to pass me.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=station areas

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

>> eventually they should all be upgraded to areas. 
>>
>
> It appears mappers have decided that's not what's best.
>  
>
I tried mapping some railway station as areas and I ended not doing this.

Either mapping would be quite arbitrary or include massive area that
is not really relevant.

For https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/206270454 (Kraków Główny)
first northern railway split is at 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.0761=19.9433#map=16/50.0761/19.9433 


Including all this tracks feels ridiculous to me.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] railway=station areas

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Oct 2020, at 17:36, Dave F via Tagging  
> wrote:
> 
> Why would train drivers, looking at OSM, need to have just a couple of 
> signals enclosed inside a polygon?


did you already have the occasion to ask commuters in your part of the world 
whether they believe the parts of a train station that are not accessible for 
the passengers are outside or inside of the station?

Are you mapping train stations as areas? From reading your replies here the 
impression I get is you are advocating for not extending the representation 
from a node to an area, right? I do not understand why you are fighting so hard 
to make a tag useless/superfluous (same meaning as public_transport=station) 
which you do not even use in this way, and without offering an alternative, all 
allegedly just for the benefit of the  “ordinary people” from whom you suppose 
to have a distorted view of the situation, so they are not confused?

Cheers Martin ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging