Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

2022-11-24 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
Discussions on the Talk page mentioned groups such as these
https://wsart.org.uk/, who assist Emergency Services (Police, Fire &
Ambulance) with water search & rescue.

Have mentioned them in the proposal as emergency_service=water

Thanks

Graeme


On Fri, 25 Nov 2022 at 09:35, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 19:05, Jez Nicholson 
> wrote:
>
>> When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it is
>> less transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not me
>> necessarily, but other mappers.
>>
>
> True, but can you guarantee that I can walk up to that spot "right now" &
> see that lifeboat moored there?
>
> No, as it could be out in use or away being serviced, if there are
> multiple vessels at any station, their locations could swap around, or
> there could be a visiting vessel moored there.
>
> So, my request that amenity=lifeboat be removed from the proposal's list
>> of incorrect tags as it is *not* a lifeboat station.
>>
>
> No, it's a mobile feature, and I thought it was an OSM axiom that we don't
> map mobile features?
>
>
>> but they are low in number.
>>
>
> It would appear that most of them, ~200, appeared in one go, possibly as
> an import "almost two years ago", which I certainly don't remember being
> discussed at all at the time?
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/lifeboat#chronology e.g.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4113966536.
>
> That makes reference to a source of https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest. But
> when you look at it's T, particularly the IPRs,
> https://rnli.org/footer/terms-and-conditions, it would appear highly
> unlikely that we are actually allowed to make use of it as a source :-(
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

2022-11-24 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 19:05, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it is
> less transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not me
> necessarily, but other mappers.
>

True, but can you guarantee that I can walk up to that spot "right now" &
see that lifeboat moored there?

No, as it could be out in use or away being serviced, if there are multiple
vessels at any station, their locations could swap around, or there could
be a visiting vessel moored there.

So, my request that amenity=lifeboat be removed from the proposal's list of
> incorrect tags as it is *not* a lifeboat station.
>

No, it's a mobile feature, and I thought it was an OSM axiom that we don't
map mobile features?


> but they are low in number.
>

It would appear that most of them, ~200, appeared in one go, possibly as an
import "almost two years ago", which I certainly don't remember being
discussed at all at the time?
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/lifeboat#chronology e.g.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4113966536.

That makes reference to a source of https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest. But
when you look at it's T, particularly the IPRs,
https://rnli.org/footer/terms-and-conditions, it would appear highly
unlikely that we are actually allowed to make use of it as a source :-(

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

2022-11-24 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 20:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Past discussion on burger vans etc lead to the understanding that if
> something was, for the majority of the time, found at a certain location
> then OSM should map it.
>
True, but part of the argument there was that the van had to be at this
location at those times e.g. Mo-Fr 08:00-14:00. An emergency vessel such as
a lifeboat may be there, or may not, depending on whether it's been called
out on a job.

> I expect the lifeboats do get more regular use, for things like training
> at least.
>
Training, & activations, can be at any time of the day or night.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

2022-11-24 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick 
On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 19:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...
>
 On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 20:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> HMS Belfast in London is mapped as building=ship, for all intents is it
> permanent (I'd expect it to be seldom away in a dry dock to get hull
> repairs).
>
In both cases, they should probably actually be tagged as museums, as they
are part of either the Australian Maritime Museum, or the Imperial War
Museum.

& tagging them as building=ship is really For The Renderer!

The classic example of this, of course, is
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=18/40.76472/-74.00060 (which used to
be building=ship, covered by lots of building=aircraft) It's now been
improved slightly but it's still wrong!

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Street parking revision

2022-11-24 Thread Alex 

|Hey all,
|

|voting has started for the street parking revision proposal: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_parking_revision|


|We apologise for the extensive size of the proposal, which is necessary 
because the proposal aims to replace an existing schema about a complex 
matter with a renewed schema and need to address all existing aspects. 
Furthermore, additional gaps are closed, lots of examples illustrate the 
use and the topic of data migration also requires its own attention.

|

|Many thanks to all who have participated in the development and 
discussion of the proposal on various channels over the past weeks!

|

|Best, Alex
|
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

2022-11-24 Thread Warin 


On 24/11/22 20:37, Nathan Case wrote:

On 24/11/2022 09:07, Warin wrote:

Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...


Something that is part of a museum, and is genuinely permanently 
secured, seems very different to an emergency response vehicle (which 
a lifeboat is for all intents and purposes). I'd map planes at an air 
and space museum but not ones at an airport terminal.


I guess the trouble with lifeboats is that they can be stored on land 
or they can be kept moored in the water. So it isn't quite as easy as 
saying "map the building" as sometimes there won't be a building (for 
the lifeboat, there normally is a building for the crew to change in 
etc).




Past discussion on burger vans etc lead to the understanding that if 
something was, for the majority of the time, found at a certain location 
then OSM should map it.


HMS Belfast in London is mapped as building=ship, for all intents is it 
permanent (I'd expect it to be seldom away in a dry dock to get hull 
repairs). I have changed the Darling Harbor ships to reflect the London 
tagging.


I expect the lifeboats do get more regular use, for things like training 
at least.





On 24/11/2022 09:00, Jez Nicholson wrote:
When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it 
is less transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not 
me necessarily, but other mappers.


Being a little pedantic, a lifeboat that is "permanently moored" won't 
serve much use as a lifeboat. Being less pedantic, mapping the 
reserved mooring location could work, however, in that case, we should 
be tagging it as a mooring spot rather than as a lifeboat itself. The 
mooring location will remain even if the lifeboat is at sea.



Nathan


On 24/11/2022 09:07, Warin wrote:



On 24/11/22 11:25, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:


Why not both?

Because a boat is a mobile feature, that we don't / can't map?

e.g 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=349559642#map=19/-27.42815/153.08582 
- we don't try to map the last bus in the middle row as #632



Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...

Way: HMAS Onslow (166230547) - mapped as a 'ship' but it is a 
submarine and they are boats.


Way: HMAS Vampire (166230548)

 Tags:
    "historic"="ship"
    "name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ref"="D11"
    "seamark:name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ship:type"="destroyer"
    "start_date"="1956"
    "tourism"="attraction"
    "wikidata"="Q721087"
    "wikipedia"="en:HMAS Vampire (D11)"

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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

2022-11-24 Thread Nathan Case 

On 24/11/2022 09:07, Warin wrote:

Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...


Something that is part of a museum, and is genuinely permanently 
secured, seems very different to an emergency response vehicle (which a 
lifeboat is for all intents and purposes). I'd map planes at an air and 
space museum but not ones at an airport terminal.


I guess the trouble with lifeboats is that they can be stored on land or 
they can be kept moored in the water. So it isn't quite as easy as 
saying "map the building" as sometimes there won't be a building (for 
the lifeboat, there normally is a building for the crew to change in etc).



On 24/11/2022 09:00, Jez Nicholson wrote:
When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it is 
less transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not me 
necessarily, but other mappers.


Being a little pedantic, a lifeboat that is "permanently moored" won't 
serve much use as a lifeboat. Being less pedantic, mapping the reserved 
mooring location could work, however, in that case, we should be tagging 
it as a mooring spot rather than as a lifeboat itself. The mooring 
location will remain even if the lifeboat is at sea.



Nathan


On 24/11/2022 09:07, Warin wrote:



On 24/11/22 11:25, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:


Why not both?

Because a boat is a mobile feature, that we don't / can't map?

e.g 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=349559642#map=19/-27.42815/153.08582 
- we don't try to map the last bus in the middle row as #632



Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...

Way: HMAS Onslow (166230547) - mapped as a 'ship' but it is a 
submarine and they are boats.


Way: HMAS Vampire (166230548)

 Tags:
    "historic"="ship"
    "name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ref"="D11"
    "seamark:name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ship:type"="destroyer"
    "start_date"="1956"
    "tourism"="attraction"
    "wikidata"="Q721087"
    "wikipedia"="en:HMAS Vampire (D11)"

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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

2022-11-24 Thread Warin 


On 24/11/22 11:25, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:


Why not both?

Because a boat is a mobile feature, that we don't / can't map?

e.g 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=349559642#map=19/-27.42815/153.08582 
- we don't try to map the last bus in the middle row as #632



Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...

Way: HMAS Onslow (166230547) - mapped as a 'ship' but it is a submarine 
and they are boats.


Way: HMAS Vampire (166230548)

 Tags:
    "historic"="ship"
    "name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ref"="D11"
    "seamark:name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ship:type"="destroyer"
    "start_date"="1956"
    "tourism"="attraction"
    "wikidata"="Q721087"
    "wikipedia"="en:HMAS Vampire (D11)"___
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

2022-11-24 Thread Jez Nicholson 
When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it is less
transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not me necessarily,
but other mappers.

So, my request that amenity=lifeboat be removed from the proposal's list of
incorrect tags as it is *not* a lifeboat station.

Yes, it should probably be emergency=lifeboat and the proposal could
suggest that, but they are low in number.

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022 at 12:29 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
>>
>> Why not both?
>>
> Because a boat is a mobile feature, that we don't / can't map?
>
> e.g
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=349559642#map=19/-27.42815/153.08582
> - we don't try to map the last bus in the middle row as #632
>
>> Taking an example:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8321217532
>>
>>- amenity = lifeboat
>>- emergency = marine_rescue
>>- lifeboat = offshore
>>- lifeboat:class = RNLI Trent
>>
>> I've included those in the proposal as they are details that apply to the
> station, but
>
>>
>>- name = George and Mary Webb
>>
>> is the name of the lifeboat itself. This could possibly be included as
> lifeboat:name= ?
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> name  Whitby
>> Lifeboat Station
>>
>
> This is the actual name of the station.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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