Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
On 19/11/2012 23:19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2012/11/19 Richard Smithr...@haveyougotanypets.com: Although the tag crop has a page if you look at it's proposal page ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Crop ) it seems clear the idea was abandoned due to lack of support. So it seems strange that the page was created in the first place. There are several reasons why a page would be set up, one being the tag in use (there are roughly 2 objects tagged with crop, so it does make sense to have the page as a definition). I am fairly new to OSM and from reading the docs I thought that any feature that was documented on the wiki was meant to go though the Proposed Features process. I can however see your point on creating supporting documentation for already widely used tags although I would argue it can lead to situations where features are documented without wider consideration and as a result are poorer for it. Looking at the tag on taginfo i notice it has a very uneven distribution. Although it has about 20k uses 96.97% of them are concentrated within 4 values (yes, field_cropland, rice, WINE_GRAPE and native_pasture) which would lead me to believe they may not have wide user base. I also think the currently documented term and use of crop is slightly ambiguous: * In some cases it is describing the thing growing e.g. strawberry but in some cases it is describe the product sugar, often these are the same thing but not always. The term WINE_GRAPE (2.2k) seems to be trying to do both. * The yes and field_cropland tag is describing there is a crop but not saying anything about the type of crop. * The native_pasture 1.1k uses value does not really seem to be describing the product instead it seem to be more of a landuse. I would argue strongly against the use of the key crop to describe the end *product* of a process e.g. /sugar/, the *produce*//or *crop* or of a feature would be either/Sugar Cane/ or /Sugar Beet/ which would then be processed at a plant to create sugar as the *product* in some other feature. I think this should be clarified. The Produce key does not seem to have had any proposal written for it at all and only the produce page exists ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce ) on which no discussion has taken place. it was introduced in the orchard proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard but again, even if there were no proposal the fact that it is in use justifies the tag definition page. The original proposal for orchard has no mention of crop. It seems to have been added as more of an afterthought. As it happens I currently have under way a proposal for the key product ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:product ) which is similar to produce except it is for the definition of man made output. So have been thinking about the this subject quite recently. yes, usage starts to appear also for product: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/product some of them might be misspellings of produce though. Lets hope not :) My slant on this would be that the term crop should be discouraged and instead produce be used in all situations where crop currently is. I think the set of possible key-values for produce would encompass the entire set of values that the crop key would cover. OK, fine for me, so basically there is no added meaning for either of those 2? Just that all values of crop could be a value of produce but not vice-versa (Ven diagrams please). I would also be happy to take the info from the crop and its child pages and rework them into the produce page if no one has any serious aversions to the idea? it's fine, but please keep the definition for crop as well, and don't change meanings of tags in use without discussing it beforehand. I aim to start a discussion about this. I have created a category page to group everything together for the benefit of confused users in the future ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Output_Types ) and I will shortly start a message thread specifically discussing this tag. Which I will document on it's discussion page. I might also add that while so far the product tag I am proposing has had more for than against votes, the main trust of the against camp has been the lack of need for 2 tags that essentially mean a features output. I sympathise with this argument and as such wondered what the community thinks of creating a tag to describe the output of any feature regardless of the type of output and we look to depreciate both the produce and product tags entirely (this does seem a shame seeing how well defined the produce tag has been according to tag info so far). I think we should not do this, there is a big difference between a field where potatoes are grown and a factory where goods are produced or a kiln where stuff is produced. Growing fruit is sufficiently far away from man_made production to merit its own key IMHO. I
[Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
Apparently we have 2 similar tags for the same stuff: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crop and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce Are there any tiny semantical differences? Are they both on the same level (e.g. is crop fine for all kinds of nuts, fruits, grains, vegetables, like apples, strawberries, olives, wheat, potatoes, cotton, ...) or is the literal meaning of one more specific? As a sidenote there seems to be suggestions for maize and corn, which, if I interpret this right, are the same plant, the first being BE and the second AE? (As we generally use BE, maybe if what I suppose is true we should mark corn as deprecated?) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
Maize is a rarely used word in British English these days, you see corn on the cob sold in supermarkets, not maize. The only place you see the word maize used is for maize mazes, because it sounds good. For once I would go with the American corn here. Phil -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 19/11/2012 12:06 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Apparently we have 2 similar tags for the same stuff: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crop and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crop Are there any tiny semantical differences? Are they both on the same level (e.g. is crop fine for all kinds of nuts, fruits, grains, vegetables, like apples, strawberries, olives, wheat, potatoes, cotton, ...) or is the literal meaning of one more specific? As a sidenote there seems to be suggestions for maize and corn, which, if I interpret this right, are the same plant, the first being BE and the second AE? (As we generally use BE, maybe if what I suppose is true we should mark corn as deprecated?) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crop ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
As a sidenote there seems to be suggestions for maize and corn, which, if I interpret this right, are the same plant, the first being BE and the second AE? (As we generally use BE, maybe if what I suppose is true we should mark corn as deprecated?) From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_(disambiguation) : Corn is the name used in the United States, Canada, and Australia for the grain maize. In much of the English-speaking world, the term corn is a generic term for cereal crops, such as: Barley Oats Rye Wheat This certainly corresponds to my understanding, and my brother's (he's a farmer). Looking at other European languages, I think maize is less likely to be misunderstood; in many languages the native word is clearly a variant of maize: http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-french/maize?utm_source=searchboxutm_medium=widgetutm_campaign=frenchutm_content=french.about.com So I would vote for using maize and not corn as maize is hyponym of corn. Colin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
2012/11/19 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_(disambiguation) : Corn is the name used in the United States, Canada, and Australia for the grain maize. In much of the English-speaking world, the term corn is a generic term for cereal crops, such as: Barley Oats Rye Wheat This certainly corresponds to my understanding, and my brother's (he's a farmer). Looking at other European languages, I think maize is less likely to be misunderstood; in many languages the native word is clearly a variant of maize: So I would vote for using maize and not corn as maize is hyponym of corn. +1, this is what it is like in German as well (Maize=Mais, Corn=Korn (where it is a generic term, btw. also used for certain hard spirits deriving from cereals)). The Italians use generally turkish grain (granturco), but there is also mais in botanic context. Looking at the actual values: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/crop#values http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=produce%3Dcorn there is 9 corn vs. 6 maize and 1 corn vs. 0 maize (so it doesn't really matter) As crops tend to change I am not sure how well we will be able to maintain this kind of data, but at least we could have uniform suggestions how to tag if someone wants to do it anyway. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
Philip Barnes wrote: Maize is a rarely used word in British English these days, you see corn on the cob sold in supermarkets, not maize. If I'm walking through a field of the stuff, in between the profanities, I'd definitely call it maize! Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/11/19 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_(disambiguation) : Corn is the name used in the United States, Canada, and Australia for the grain maize. In much of the English-speaking world, the term corn is a generic term for cereal crops, such as: Barley Oats Rye Wheat This certainly corresponds to my understanding, and my brother's (he's a farmer). Looking at other European languages, I think maize is less likely to be misunderstood; in many languages the native word is clearly a variant of maize: So I would vote for using maize and not corn as maize is hyponym of corn. +1, this is what it is like in German as well (Maize=Mais, Corn=Korn (where it is a generic term, btw. also used for certain hard spirits deriving from cereals)). The Italians use generally turkish grain (granturco), but there is also mais in botanic context. Looking at the actual values: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/crop#values http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=produce%3Dcorn there is 9 corn vs. 6 maize and 1 corn vs. 0 maize (so it doesn't really matter) As crops tend to change I am not sure how well we will be able to maintain this kind of data, but at least we could have uniform suggestions how to tag if someone wants to do it anyway. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging I am an American, and would vote for maize, as it is less ambiguous. The term maize is known in American English, it just isn't as common a usage as corn. Incidentally, the Spanish term for the grain is masa, and they would have been the first Europeans to encounter the plant. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
Hi Martin Although the tag crop has a page if you look at it's proposal page ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Crop ) it seems clear the idea was abandoned due to lack of support. So it seems strange that the page was created in the first place. However the user that created it has done quite a bit of work defining the different values for this tag. See wheat, Corn, e.t.c The Produce key does not seem to have had any proposal written for it at all and only the produce page exists ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce ) on which no discussion has taken place. As it happens I currently have under way a proposal for the key product ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:product ) which is similar to produce except it is for the definition of man made output. So have been thinking about the this subject quite recently. My slant on this would be that the term crop should be discouraged and instead produce be used in all situations where crop currently is. I think the set of possible key-values for produce would encompass the entire set of values that the crop key would cover. Any loss of definition could be regained by looking at corresponding tags as I would imagine any person wishing to tag to the level detail of crop type would have also tagged the area as farm or farmland, e.t.c. So the fact this is a crop could be inferred. I would also be happy to take the info from the crop and its child pages and rework them into the produce page if no one has any serious aversions to the idea? I might also add that while so far the product tag I am proposing has had more for than against votes, the main trust of the against camp has been the lack of need for 2 tags that essentially mean a features output. I sympathise with this argument and as such wondered what the community thinks of creating a tag to describe the output of any feature regardless of the type of output and we look to depreciate both the produce and product tags entirely (this does seem a shame seeing how well defined the produce tag has been according to tag info so far). Either way I am happy to do the write up for whatever people decide. Cheers - Richard On 19/11/2012 12:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Apparently we have 2 similar tags for the same stuff: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crop and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce Are there any tiny semantical differences? Are they both on the same level (e.g. is crop fine for all kinds of nuts, fruits, grains, vegetables, like apples, strawberries, olives, wheat, potatoes, cotton, ...) or is the literal meaning of one more specific? As a sidenote there seems to be suggestions for maize and corn, which, if I interpret this right, are the same plant, the first being BE and the second AE? (As we generally use BE, maybe if what I suppose is true we should mark corn as deprecated?) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:15:12PM +, Philip Barnes wrote: Maize is a rarely used word in British English these days, you see corn on the cob sold in supermarkets, not maize. The only place you see the word maize used is for maize mazes, because it sounds good. For once I would go with the American corn here. I agree with the others from the uk: in my experience maize is widely used and understood. Except, perhaps, in supermarkets. So -1. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Differences between crop and produce?
2012/11/19 Richard Smith r...@haveyougotanypets.com: Although the tag crop has a page if you look at it's proposal page ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Crop ) it seems clear the idea was abandoned due to lack of support. So it seems strange that the page was created in the first place. There are several reasons why a page would be set up, one being the tag in use (there are roughly 2 objects tagged with crop, so it does make sense to have the page as a definition). The Produce key does not seem to have had any proposal written for it at all and only the produce page exists ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce ) on which no discussion has taken place. it was introduced in the orchard proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard but again, even if there were no proposal the fact that it is in use justifies the tag definition page. As it happens I currently have under way a proposal for the key product ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:product ) which is similar to produce except it is for the definition of man made output. So have been thinking about the this subject quite recently. yes, usage starts to appear also for product: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/product some of them might be misspellings of produce though. My slant on this would be that the term crop should be discouraged and instead produce be used in all situations where crop currently is. I think the set of possible key-values for produce would encompass the entire set of values that the crop key would cover. OK, fine for me, so basically there is no added meaning for either of those 2? I would also be happy to take the info from the crop and its child pages and rework them into the produce page if no one has any serious aversions to the idea? it's fine, but please keep the definition for crop as well, and don't change meanings of tags in use without discussing it beforehand. I might also add that while so far the product tag I am proposing has had more for than against votes, the main trust of the against camp has been the lack of need for 2 tags that essentially mean a features output. I sympathise with this argument and as such wondered what the community thinks of creating a tag to describe the output of any feature regardless of the type of output and we look to depreciate both the produce and product tags entirely (this does seem a shame seeing how well defined the produce tag has been according to tag info so far). I think we should not do this, there is a big difference between a field where potatoes are grown and a factory where goods are produced or a kiln where stuff is produced. Growing fruit is sufficiently far away from man_made production to merit its own key IMHO. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
