Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
2015-01-28 19:57 GMT+01:00 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com: Hi - my 2p: yes sounds fine. I agree with others who said that culture=* seems a decent choice (since more flexible and less awkward than ethnicity=*) I don't like culture as it is way too generic IMHO, it can mean a lot of different stuff, and you can see from taginfo that none of the currently used values do fit with the here intended meaning: http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/culture Instead they mostly fit into a proposal I made up 5 yrs ago but then abandoned: http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/culture The flexibility is not a pro but a con, too flexbile ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
Eric SIBERT courr...@eric.sibert.fr wrote: I started modifying the wiki following our recent discussion. For cuisine=*, I added: ... For shop=convenience, I added (in Tags used in combination): ... +1 And latter go on with culture=* for nonfood services? +1 Hi Martin Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: The flexibility is not a pro but a con, too flexbile ;-) Flexible enough (pro) or too flexible (con): YMMV ;) I view 'ethnicity' as not flexible enough and 'culture' as appropriate. At least 'culture' is my preferred proposal so far. Maybe someone can propose something better. I think culture=* is good enough to start using it and document it and get more feedback. I don't like culture as it is way too generic IMHO, it can mean a lot of different stuff I quite agree but argued that Within the context of shops and with the associated values related to nationalities and the like, the meaning of culture=* is rather unmistakable. Other proposals were far more generic (origin) or a little too specific (ethnic/ethnicity, nationality, subculture). I think culture=* is a nice middle ground and a good fit regarding the values that are expected to be used. you can see from taginfo that none of the currently used values do fit with the here intended meaning: http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/culture culture=* is indeed not used yet in the here intended meaning. Because it is a brand new idea and because it is discussed here first, instead of use first and discuss after. Instead they mostly fit into a proposal I made up 5 yrs ago but then abandoned: http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/culture Already discussed in some details. 84 uses, only tagging errors where culture=X should be replaced by amenity=X or tourism=X. culture=* is available as a tagging option, the current use is irrelevant. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
On Jan 29, 2015, at 3:57 AM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote:
2015-01-28 18:52 GMT+00:00 Eric SIBERT courr...@eric.sibert.fr:
I started modifying the wiki following our recent discussion.
For cuisine=*, I added:
May also apply to other services that deliver food, like convenience.
For shop=convenience, I added (in Tags used in combination):
Stores selling specific type of food or with ethnic origin may use
{{tag|cuisine}} to indicate it.
And latter go on with culture=* for nonfood services?
Hi - my 2p: yes sounds fine. I agree with others who said that
culture=* seems a decent choice (since more flexible and less awkward
than ethnicity=*)
+1
(my 2¥)
Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
I started modifying the wiki following our recent discussion.
For cuisine=*, I added:
May also apply to other services that deliver food, like convenience.
For shop=convenience, I added (in Tags used in combination):
Stores selling specific type of food or with ethnic origin may use
{{tag|cuisine}} to indicate it.
And latter go on with culture=* for nonfood services?
Eric
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Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
2015-01-28 18:52 GMT+00:00 Eric SIBERT courr...@eric.sibert.fr:
I started modifying the wiki following our recent discussion.
For cuisine=*, I added:
May also apply to other services that deliver food, like convenience.
For shop=convenience, I added (in Tags used in combination):
Stores selling specific type of food or with ethnic origin may use
{{tag|cuisine}} to indicate it.
And latter go on with culture=* for nonfood services?
Hi - my 2p: yes sounds fine. I agree with others who said that
culture=* seems a decent choice (since more flexible and less awkward
than ethnicity=*)
Best
Dan
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Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
like: amenity=hairdresser name=Scalp culture=punk ? Exactly, I provided other examples in my previous message such as culture=country, culture=grunge, culture=shinto. Using several keys ethnicity=* + nationality=* + subculture=* all together would be unambiguous but I think culture=* does a good job of merging all keys. I am not sure ethnicity=* alone can cover all the cases such as your hairdresser ethnicity=punk. I think you know it and choose to discard punk / grunge / country / shinto / goth / kawaii tagging? ;) But even with nationalities it sounds strange, eg. ethnicity=canadian / irish / italian / ... Furthermore I do not have examples at the moment but *maybe* ethnicity is more connoted and may lead to awkward tagging for some groups. but culture=* is already used. 84 uses It seems like the remnants of a old proposal [1]. So it looks to me as a bunch of tagging errors where culture=X should be replaced by amenity=X or tourism=X or any appropriate key=X. Based on the current uses and the fact that culture may have several meanings, ethnicity=* seams to me the best choice As far as I understand culture=* is available as a tagging option, the current use is irrelevant. cuisine=* allows to agglomerate two concepts: food ethnicity + food type. This is outlined [2] and detailed [3] in the wiki. This is why ethnicity=* is not a valid key to - in the unlikely event that we wanted to - replace all the current uses of cuisine=*. And I am trying to find the equivalent of cuisine=* for other types of amenities/shops. I appreciate the fact that 'culture' may have several meanings though. I would still consider key culture=* as my preferred option. Within the context of shops and with the associated values related to nationalities and the like, the meaning of culture=* is rather unmistakable. with values as similar as possible to cuisine=*. Whatever the choice I agree that values should be shared with cuisine=* as much as possible. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/culture [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Drestaurant [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cuisine ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
Le 19/01/2015 18:42, althio althio a écrit : John Willis jo...@mac.com mailto:jo...@mac.com wrote: I think there should be ethnic=*, Nationality=* , or culture=*tag that can be used [...] I find culture=* the best so far. I find it specialised enough (compared to _type=*, origin=*, category=*, group=* ...) I find it accurate enough. I find it generic enough (compared to more restrictive nationality=* and even ethnicity=*) so that it enables tagging for ethnic group but also other types of social group and subcultures. like: amenity=hairdresser name=Scalp culture=punk ? but culture=* is already used. 84 uses: kleinkunst museum music roman celtic youth_club theatre art_gallery arts_centre ... ethnic=* is mostly used in Colombia (x1000) from an OCHA import (that I didn't know was compatible with OSM license) associated with place=hamlet, ethnic=yes and ethnic_group=*. ethnicity=* is used with values indian chinese italian mexican Italian yes asian polish thai czech Some uses are strange like restaurants in USA with cuisine=national, ethnicity=*. Based on the current uses and the fact that culture may have several meanings, ethnicity=* seams to me the best choice with values as similar as possible to cuisine=*. -- Éric ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
On 16/01/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: ethnicity (total use 65) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ethnicity Thanks for that, it's certainly better than convenience=*, I'll change my tagging. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: I think there should be ethnic=*, Nationality=* , or culture=*tag that can be used [...] I find culture=* the best so far. I find it specialised enough (compared to _type=*, origin=*, category=*, group=* ...) I find it accurate enough. I find it generic enough (compared to more restrictive nationality=* and even ethnicity=*) so that it enables tagging for ethnic group but also other types of social group and subcultures. cuisine=* is well established for restaurant and can be extended for everything related to food in convenience, deli... cuisine=ramen / cuisine:asian:japanese=ramen cuisine=sichuan / cuisine:asian:chinese=sichuan For clothes, hairdresser, craft, bar... I think culture=* is well suited. culture=indian / culture:asian=indian culture=italian / culture:western:european=italian culture=country / culture:western:american=country culture=grunge / culture:western=grunge culture=shinto / culture:asian=shinto ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
On 15/01/2015, Eric Sibert courr...@eric.sibert.fr wrote: Hi all, I'm wandering on how to tag shops that are offering services with specific ethnic orientation. For instance: - convenience specialized for Italian, Portuguese, Chinese products... - clothes typical from one country/area - hairdresser for African people although non African may also want to find it for braids I've recently tagged a shop=convenience, convenience=polish. You'll find a handfull of other examples of convenience=* clothes=* hairdresser=* on taginfo. The usage is very low (especially considering the number of polish convenience stores in Ireland for example), but that's the best I could find. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
2015-01-16 13:29 GMT+01:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: I've recently tagged a shop=convenience, convenience=polish. You'll find a handfull of other examples of convenience=* clothes=* hairdresser=* on taginfo. I suggest to use a more specific key that already tells in its name what it is about, and that allows for tagging several orthogonal properties. The current values for convenience (in total only used 11 times) are: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/convenience#values yes russian mall pet polish variety_store african wine;honey;rice;pastery;book so basically there is no system, and the values make it hard if not impossible to understand what is actually tagged. I have found these in taginfo: ethnicity (total use 65) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ethnicity origin (used more often, but has the same problem then convenience, it is mixed up with different concepts) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/origin#values cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
This, and already the existing tagging for restaurant cuisine have a basic flaw. They only work in a few countries of the West. If you think about it, most likely al restaurants in China would have to have cuisine=chinese, or all grocery stores in Marocco would have to be labelled convenience=north_african or whatever. Basically you want to label restaurants/shops only if they offer something different from what's the typical local fare. I have no proposal, I am just observing. On 16 January 2015 at 13:45, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-01-16 13:29 GMT+01:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: I've recently tagged a shop=convenience, convenience=polish. You'll find a handfull of other examples of convenience=* clothes=* hairdresser=* on taginfo. I suggest to use a more specific key that already tells in its name what it is about, and that allows for tagging several orthogonal properties. The current values for convenience (in total only used 11 times) are: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/convenience#values yes russian mall pet polish variety_store african wine;honey;rice;pastery;book so basically there is no system, and the values make it hard if not impossible to understand what is actually tagged. I have found these in taginfo: ethnicity (total use 65) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ethnicity origin (used more often, but has the same problem then convenience, it is mixed up with different concepts) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/origin#values cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
That's not a flaw - you've already given the solution in your own email: Basically you want to label restaurants/shops only if they offer something different from what's the typical local fare. 2015-01-16 13:23 GMT+00:00 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com: This, and already the existing tagging for restaurant cuisine have a basic flaw. They only work in a few countries of the West. If you think about it, most likely al restaurants in China would have to have cuisine=chinese, or all grocery stores in Marocco would have to be labelled convenience=north_african or whatever. Basically you want to label restaurants/shops only if they offer something different from what's the typical local fare. I have no proposal, I am just observing. On 16 January 2015 at 13:45, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-01-16 13:29 GMT+01:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: I've recently tagged a shop=convenience, convenience=polish. You'll find a handfull of other examples of convenience=* clothes=* hairdresser=* on taginfo. I suggest to use a more specific key that already tells in its name what it is about, and that allows for tagging several orthogonal properties. The current values for convenience (in total only used 11 times) are: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/convenience#values yes russian mall pet polish variety_store african wine;honey;rice;pastery;book so basically there is no system, and the values make it hard if not impossible to understand what is actually tagged. I have found these in taginfo: ethnicity (total use 65) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ethnicity origin (used more often, but has the same problem then convenience, it is mixed up with different concepts) http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/origin#values cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ethnic shops
Sent from my iPhone On Jan 16, 2015, at 10:54 PM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: That's not a flaw - you've already given the solution in your own email: Basically you want to label restaurants/shops only if they offer something different from what's the typical local fare. Exactly - here in japan, the local restaurant type of ramen, soba, cutlet, sushi, dango, yakisoba, okonomiyaki, etc would all have their own cuisine tags (probably in Japanese) as that what people search for. There are also ethnic shops - Philippine restaurants and shops, Peruvian restaurants ad shops, etc for the local foreigners. I think there should be ethnic=*, Nationality=* , or culture=*tag that can be used for any feature when it is a feature of the place to esperate it from the country it is in. , or focuses on goods and services from a specific place. (Greman car repair?) There are Philippine dance clubs in my area, plastered with flags. - but the word Philippine is not in the title of the club, but it is a big part of the shop identity. Similarly, Korean BBQ and Japanese BBQ are very similar - but often the shops will differentiate based on nationality - but they are all (to Japanese people, at least) BBQ. If I search BBQ, it would be nice to see them all, or Korean BBQ and get just the Korean ones. I'm not sure how the tag space searches are handled. In San Diego, there is a basically just Japanese or sushi restaurants, and Japanese markets. There is a small all things bright and British shop in my hometown, plastered with big Union Jack flag - a culture=British might be useful. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Ethnic shops
Hi all, I'm wandering on how to tag shops that are offering services with specific ethnic orientation. For instance: - convenience specialized for Italian, Portuguese, Chinese products... - clothes typical from one country/area - hairdresser for African people although non African may also want to find it for braids ... cuisine=* is used for restaurant and may be suitable for convenience but not really for clothes or hairdresser. Any suggestion is welcome. Eric ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
