[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[wiki_openstreetmap_org . 5 . kuru]

I would like to hear your thoughts and comments here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/toll

 

 NOTE: All comments attached to this mail WILL NOT BE PROCESSED! Only comments on the wiki page will be answered and worked on!


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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[wiki_openstreetmap_org . 5 . kuru]

I have seen that some people already started to reply to this main.

 

AGAIN: Mails here will not be processed (by me)!!

 

It's not about dictating something or cutting people off, but about my lack of time to maintain the wiki and the mailing list.

In my opinion the mailing list is everything but well-aranged, has no easy to use layout, no logic line-up of comments, etc. Because I HAVE to drop one, I'll drop the mailing list.

 

If you want to add a comment, you are more than welcome to add it to the OSM wiki.

If you want to maintain the mailing list and copy information, do it! I'm more than happy for any helping hand.

All comments and new ideas are welcome. I just don't have the time to go out to grab all of them from different places.

 

If you want to leave a comment directly, please do that here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/toll

 

 


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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[wiki_openstreetmap_org . 5 . kuru]

You have pretty much guaranteed that those who find it easier to respond here will vote against your proposal because it ignored their suggestions.

There are probably some here who will vote against your proposal even if they agree with it 100% because of your attitude.

I'm not attempting to dictate what you do. I'm just informing you that actions can have unwanted consequences. Your choice as to what you do.

--
Paul

- One has made clear that he has no time to process the mails here. Should I write it where I know he will read it? No! I will write them here and be angry about it that he didn't read them. So angry that I will vote against his proposal no matter what because he didn't read the mails I wrote knowing that he will have no time to read them.

 

Sorry, but this is just childish. If somebody is angry about not beeing heard when he chooses a way of communication for which it was made clear right from the start that there is no time to maintain it, I have no idea what would not make them angry.

If people want to vote from trump because "Hillary is bad" they don't argue, they search for an excuse.

 

As said, the wiki is much easier to use, has a much better layout, everything is in one place, the vote is held over there and I have no time to maintain two things at the same time.

Cutting off something that is not essential at the moment because of a lack of time is not an 'attitude' it's called time management.

 

If people vote against a proposal of which they think it's useful just because they are not fine with using an already established comment system they are not interested in constructive work.

 

 




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[Mateusz Konieczny]

8 May 2019, 15:50 by wiki_openstreetmap_org.5.k...@spamgourmet.com:

> I would like to hear your thoughts and comments here: > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/toll 
> >  
>
I see no good reason to turn simple boolean tag (toll=yes/ toll=no are 98,98% 
of all values[1]) into something
highly complicated. It would work better as a new tag

 Also, what is the point of tagging that road located in Italy is an Italian 
toll road?

[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/toll#values 


>  NOTE: All comments attached to this mail WILL NOT BE PROCESSED! Only 
> comments on the wiki page will be answered and worked on!
>
It is your choice but it means that you are likely to miss some comments, and 
encounter
them as explanation of "no" votes.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[marc marc]

Le 08.05.19 à 15:50, wiki_openstreetmap_org.5.k...@spamgourmet.com a écrit :
> I would like to hear your thoughts and comments here: 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/toll

- I see no need to specify that a country's roads are in that country.
- I have always considered strange a vignette is considered as a toll.
- the toll detail would better be added on the highest entity containing 
the type of toll concerned (e.g. on the Swiss relationship for the Swiss 
vignette or on a Brittany relationship to say that there is no payment 
in Brittany) rather than duplicate the same information many times.
- if you want to add details of the fee, use the fee key
- to inform if it is with a ticket or rfid, used a dedicated key, 
especially since in France, both are possible on the same routes.
it also allow to use this key for other feature (like paking fee)
- type in toll:type is a no meaning key. it's better to use a key with a 
"self-meaning" (like calculation_basis) but from your examples, it seems 
that all vignettes are based on a duration, so what's the added value to 
duplicate vignette with time ? and to say that the payment of a tunnel 
is based on distance seems wrong (it's a fixed price for the tunnel,
you can't paid less or more than the fixed price for a kind of vehicule)
- toll:type=time gives me the impression that the payment is made 
according to the time you use the road (if you drive fast, you pay less 
than the one who drives slowly). out of the description speaks of a 
subscription for a certain duration. it is not intuitive.
again a lot of roads have one-shoot and subscription payement.

> NOTE: All comments attached to this mail WILL NOT BE PROCESSED!

so nice ! all not-processed comments may result in a vote=no
or worse in difficulties of use in the future because a detected
problem has not been solved
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, 8 May 2019 at 14:50,
 wrote:
>
> I

Who is "I"? is "wiki_openstreetmap_org.5.kuru" really your name?

>  NOTE: All comments attached to this mail WILL NOT BE PROCESSED!
> Only comments on the wiki page will be answered and worked on!

You do realise that the wiki is supposed to document current best
practice, and can not dictate it?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[marc marc]

Le 08.05.19 à 18:00, Andy Mabbett a écrit :
> On Wed, 8 May 2019 at 14:50,
>  wrote:
>>
>> I
> 
> Who is "I"? is "wiki_openstreetmap_org.5.kuru" really your name?

spamgourmet is anti-spam feature that allow you to add keyword prefix. 
you can deduce that the account is kuru (but there is nothing to prevent 
you from creating several accounts). the best way is to look at the 
author of the wiki page : TBKMrt
it certainly doesn't matter because the important thing is talk
about the idea and not the person nor his nickname
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 8. Mai 2019 um 18:02 Uhr schrieb Andy Mabbett <
a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk>:

> On Wed, 8 May 2019 at 14:50,
>  wrote:
> >
> > I
>
> Who is "I"? is "wiki_openstreetmap_org.5.kuru" really your name?
>


There is no requirement to tell your name in order to contribute to a
discussion here.
I agree it looks more human if the person signs their post with a name, but
if they don't it shouldn't be a reason for publicly raising your eyebrows.
Or do you suspect  "wiki_openstreetmap_org.5.kuru" is not a person?



> >  NOTE: All comments attached to this mail WILL NOT BE PROCESSED!
> > Only comments on the wiki page will be answered and worked on!
> You do realise that the wiki is supposed to document current best
> practice, and can not dictate it?



You did notice she has linked to a proposal page, which is a space in the
wiki explicitly set up to discuss new ideas?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, 8 May 2019 at 17:26, marc marc  wrote:
>
> Le 08.05.19 à 18:00, Andy Mabbett a écrit :
> > On Wed, 8 May 2019 at 14:50,
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> I
> >
> > Who is "I"? is "wiki_openstreetmap_org.5.kuru" really your name?

> the author of the wiki page :TBKMrt

If the OP wishes to be known (only) as TBKMrt, then that is now they
should sign their email.

> it certainly doesn't matter because the important thing is talk
> about the idea and not the person nor his nickname

I didn't say anything about wanting to discuss the person; but I do
not think it unreasonable to wan't to know /with whom/ I am discussing
the idea.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, 8 May 2019 at 17:34, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>> >  NOTE: All comments attached to this mail WILL NOT BE PROCESSED!
>> > Only comments on the wiki page will be answered and worked on!
>> You do realise that the wiki is supposed to document current best
>> practice, and can not dictate it?

> You did notice she has linked to a proposal page, which is a space in the 
> wiki explicitly set up to discuss new ideas?

Yes, I did. My point stands.

Or did we change things, and agree that the Wiki is now the de jure
record of authority?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 May 2019 at 18:08, 
wrote:

> I have seen that some people already started to reply to this main.
>
> AGAIN: Mails here will not be processed (by me)!!
>

You have pretty much guaranteed that those who find it easier to respond
here will vote
against your proposal because it ignored their suggestions.

There are probably some here who will vote against your proposal even if
they agree with
it 100% because of your attitude.

I'm not attempting to dictate what you do. I'm just informing you that
actions can have
unwanted consequences.  Your choice as to what you do.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[marc marc]

Le 08.05.19 à 20:05, wiki_openstreetmap_org.5.k...@spamgourmet.com a écrit :
> As said

please quote in an usefull way :)

you could say the same thing with a little more consideration, such as 
"I don't have time to read the mailing list regularly because my 
PERSONAL preference is the wiki, do not hesitate to prefer the wiki for 
your comments"
.
osm is a community project, the social is not to be neglected. that 
being said, everyone has read that you will ignore them here, maybe the 
proposal would deserve to be led by someone who has more time to read 
people's opinions on both main channels used for proposals.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 May 2019 at 19:22, marc marc  wrote:

> .
> osm is a community project, the social is not to be neglected. that
> being said, everyone has read that you will ignore them here, maybe the
> proposal would deserve to be led by someone who has more time to read
> people's opinions on both main channels used for proposals.
>

Only one person (that we know of) wants the new scheme.  Others, like
myself, haven't
mapped a toll, may never map a toll, and comment on the proposal in order
to try to
improve it even though they may never use it.  Because we all benefit from
a rational mapping
scheme and all suffer from a badly-conceived one.

Question: which of those people should be prepared to do the most work by
dealing with
a method of communication they do not prefer?  Those who didn't see a need
for
the change in the first place or the person wanting the change?

What the proposer is implying (whether intentionally or not) is that
his/her/its time is more
valuable than ours.  His/her/its time is more valuable than the time of all
of us who find it
easier to respond on the list than on the wiki, put together.  I doubt very
much that this is
the case.  And even if it were the case, that would just be pointing out
how inferior the rest
of us are, and nobody likes to be made to feel inferior.

In addition, his/her/its attitude isn't helping his/her/its case.
He/she/it doesn't want to do
the work necessary, work that most other proposers accept as part of the
task, and insists
that any of us who prefer responding here must inconvenience ourselves for
his/her/its
benefit.  And then he/she/it accuses me of being childish when I point out
how some
people are likely to respond.  How to make friends and influence people...

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[Warin]

On 09/05/19 03:22, Paul Allen wrote:
On Wed, 8 May 2019 at 18:08, 
> wrote:


I have seen that some people already started to reply to this main.
AGAIN: Mails here will not be processed (by me)!!


You have pretty much guaranteed that those who find it easier to 
respond here will vote

against your proposal because it ignored their suggestions.


+1

No need to separate countries.

toll:type... NO. the values of time and distance indicate the fee paid 
will be related to those quantities ... the time one? The slower you go 
do you pay more or less compared to the faster vehicle???


toll:assessment=time/distance  but not toll:type!

And of course if these comment are ignore I will vote against... Bye.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - toll

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. May 2019, at 19:07, wiki_openstreetmap_org.5.k...@spamgourmet.com wrote:
> 
> In my opinion the mailing list is everything but well-aranged, has no easy to 
> use layout, no logic line-up of comments, etc. Because I HAVE to drop one, 
> I'll drop the mailing list.


I cannot follow the argument you have to drop the mailing list comments because 
the mailing list is not organized well. You do not have to follow every topic, 
but I would expect you follow yours, it is just a few comments, if this is too 
much effort you would better not have written anything, rather than coming back 
several times to state in writing that you do not want to engage here.

Cheers, Martin 
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Toll Gantry

[Jonathon McClung]

Hello OSM Tagging List!

We at Kaart noticed a lot of unresolved discussions on the more and more 
prevalent toll gantries that never really came to a head. We considered some of 
the routing issues caused by the current barrier=toll_booth method when we 
started to run into them with the data we collected in South Africa. Therefore, 
we figured we would put together a proposal to get something more or less set 
in stone. Please check it out and leave a comment in the discussion page!

Link to the proposal:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Toll_Gantry 


Definition as it appears on the site:

A tag on a node to denote a transponder or camera gantry that exists for the 
purpose of electronically collecting tolls.

-- 
Jonathon McClung  |  Kaart  |  jonat...@kaartgroup.com 

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Toll Gantry

[Erkin Alp Güney]

Would enforcement=toll not be enough?


05-09-2018 20:48 tarihinde Jonathon McClung yazdı:
> Hello OSM Tagging List!
>
> We at Kaart noticed a lot of unresolved discussions on the more and
> more prevalent toll gantries that never really came to a head. We
> considered some of the routing issues caused by the current
> barrier=toll_booth method when we started to run into them with the
> data we collected in South Africa. Therefore, we figured we would put
> together a proposal to get something more or less set in stone. Please
> check it out and leave a comment in the discussion page!
>
> Link to the proposal:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Toll_Gantry
>
> Definition as it appears on the site:
>
> A tag on a node to denote a transponder or camera gantry that exists
> for the purpose of electronically collecting tolls.
>
> -- 
> Jonathon McClung  |  Kaart  |  jonat...@kaartgroup.com
>  
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Toll Gantry

[Jonathon McClung]

According to the wiki, enforcement=toll is used for something completely 
different. See:

HGV toll enforcement camera bridges and pillars in Germany (see Toll Collect 
 on Wikipedia), checking system 
compliance.
For normal toll bridges that directly trigger the payment please use barrier 
=toll_booth 

From what I’ve read there and on the Wikipedia page mentioned, it seems to have 
more to do enforcing that people pay, not actually collecting.

The other factor is that the proposal is for a tag on a node versus a tag 
enforcement which is a relation.

-- 
Jonathon McClung  |  Kaart  |  jonat...@kaartgroup.com 



> On Sep 5, 2018, at 12:38 PM, Erkin Alp Güney  wrote:
> 
> Would enforcement=toll not be enough?
> 
> 
> 05-09-2018 20:48 tarihinde Jonathon McClung yazdı:
>> Hello OSM Tagging List!
>> 
>> We at Kaart noticed a lot of unresolved discussions on the more and
>> more prevalent toll gantries that never really came to a head. We
>> considered some of the routing issues caused by the current
>> barrier=toll_booth method when we started to run into them with the
>> data we collected in South Africa. Therefore, we figured we would put
>> together a proposal to get something more or less set in stone. Please
>> check it out and leave a comment in the discussion page!
>> 
>> Link to the proposal:
>> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Toll_Gantry
>> 
>> Definition as it appears on the site:
>> 
>> A tag on a node to denote a transponder or camera gantry that exists
>> for the purpose of electronically collecting tolls.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jonathon McClung  |  Kaart  |  jonat...@kaartgroup.com
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
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