Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Nov 2018, at 22:15, SelfishSeahorse  wrote:
> 
> Is there really a difference between embedded railway rails and
> embedded tram rails? Isn't the only difference that the vehicles that
> run on them look different?


it depends on the point of view and eventually jurisdiction, for example in 
Germany the traffic regulations for trams are different to those of trains. 
From the point of view of a cyclist there isn’t so much difference ;-)


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[SelfishSeahorse]

Is there really a difference between embedded railway rails and
embedded tram rails? Isn't the only difference that the vehicles that
run on them look different?

Near where i live there's a narrow-gauge rack railway that runs on
embedded rails in the town. [1] These embedded rails look identical to
tram rails. Besides, the traffic signs are the same as for trams. [2]
I would have mapped such embedded rails railway=tram (but tag the
route route=railway). Therefore i also don't see the need for
distinguishing embedded_rails=tram/train/narrow_gauge/... (unless i'm
wrong and there is a technical difference).

[1]: https://goo.gl/maps/8waPFgFFFQ22
[2]: https://goo.gl/maps/phD4YvgP9zD2

Regards
Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Jo]

It is still possible to tag a highway with 1 single railway track on it
highway=* + railway=tram/train. But this proposal is for the case where the
highway has 2 railiway tracks which are already mapped separately because
the way railways curve is different from how how highways behave at
intersections.

This tag is only a hint for routers, so cyclists can try to avoid such
ways. What it really means is, there are railway tracks, BUT they are
already mapped on  separate OSM object that runs mostly parallel to this
highway.

Polyglot

El jue., 22 nov. 2018 a las 6:55, Yves () escribió:

> Sergio,
> This is not an issue, anyway some will argue that the highway is a highway
> AND a railway too, so they would be happy too.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Yves]

Sergio,
This is not an issue, anyway some will argue that the highway is a highway AND 
a railway too, so they would be happy too.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

It will not be a trouble. After OSM wiki page about specific value is created 
it is easy to find
(it is true for any documented value and it is not changing whatever given 
proposalis a good idea or not).
21. Nov 2018 23:11 by yve...@mailbox.org :


> I like the railway key: if it's a railway, don't make it an obscure tag that 
> no one can find in the wiki.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Sergio Manzi]

Hello Yves,

maybe you're missing that according to the proposal we will have a first 
feature tagged as *both */highway=*/ *and */railway=separately_mapped/, *plus 
*a second overlapping/parallel feature tagged as/railway=*/

Utterly confusing, IMHO: the embedded rail is an attribute of the highway 
surface and so should be tagged, not as a hint to the renderer.

Cheers,

Sergio


On 2018-11-21 23:11, Yves wrote:
> Here is another example :
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/46.72145/6.53707
>
> I like the railway key: if it's a railway, don't make it an obscure tag that 
> no one can find in the wiki.
> Yves
>


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Yves]

Here is another example :
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/46.72145/6.53707

I like the railway key: if it's a railway, don't make it an obscure tag that no 
one can find in the wiki.
Yves 

Le 21 novembre 2018 22:47:34 GMT+01:00, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 a écrit :
>On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 19:04, Nikulainen, Jukka K <
>jukka.nikulai...@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
>>
>> It is true that that would be more precise, but are there in fact any
>> examples of this? I mean a railway that runs parallel to _and_ on a
>road?
>> Usually highways do cross railways, but this is not a problem, since
>one
>> approaches the rails (and the grooves) tangentially and they do not
>pose a
>> great danger.
>>
>
>Yep, here's one:
>
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-23.38348/150.51344
>
>https://www.google.com/maps/@-23.3849743,150.5134603,3a,75y,1.08h,91.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1symXKGQrpX9_K7nUyg9FbMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>
>& that is the main North-South rail line!
>
>
>Thanks
>
>Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 19:04, Nikulainen, Jukka K <
jukka.nikulai...@helsinki.fi> wrote:

>
> It is true that that would be more precise, but are there in fact any
> examples of this? I mean a railway that runs parallel to _and_ on a road?
> Usually highways do cross railways, but this is not a problem, since one
> approaches the rails (and the grooves) tangentially and they do not pose a
> great danger.
>

Yep, here's one:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-23.38348/150.51344

https://www.google.com/maps/@-23.3849743,150.5134603,3a,75y,1.08h,91.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1symXKGQrpX9_K7nUyg9FbMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

& that is the main North-South rail line!


Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Rainer]

Yes, I agree, railway tracks in a highway is more seldom than tram 
rails. In former times that existed oftener and I assume that in eastern 
Europe more of such cases still exist, also in Asia.

Some examples that I know:
Many streets in Forst (Lausitz) had such railways, some still exist 
(unused):

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.74037/14.63721
http://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/7191/158Forst_-_Stadt_-_Ausweiche_Alexanderstr_02.JPG
Still in use:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/query?lat=52.84362=8.94250#map=17/52.84359/8.94328=N
Combined railway/highway bridge between France and Germany (currently 
not used, but talked about reactivation):

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/315375218#map=16/48.8472/8.1177=N
Lindaunisbrücke (another combined bridge - in use):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindaunisbrücke#/media/File:Boren_Lindaunis_Eisenbahnbruecke.jpg

Bye,
Rainer

Am 21.11.18 um 13:00 schrieb tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org:

Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Jo]

The whole issue is that due to tram rails bending differently than road
ways, the tram rails are mapped on their own OSM ways. This gives a nicely
detailed rendering, a better description of reality, but now the
information that for the straight parts the rails are embedded into the
highway is missing. It's just a model, not a highly detailed architectural
plan.

I would also be in favour of not using railway=*,

embedded_rails conveys more information without going into conflict with
the railway ways. We don't want to render them 3 times if there are 2
tracks.

Polyglot

El mié., 21 nov. 2018 a las 10:04, Nikulainen, Jukka K (<
jukka.nikulai...@helsinki.fi>) escribió:

> Sorry, I forgot to comment on this earlier
>
> >embedded_rails=yes or even more precise
> >embedded_rails=tram | embedded_rails=railway.
> >The latter is even worse for bicycles, because the rail grooves are
> >broader.
>
> It is true that that would be more precise, but are there in fact any
> examples of this? I mean a railway that runs parallel to _and_ on a road?
> Usually highways do cross railways, but this is not a problem, since one
> approaches the rails (and the grooves) tangentially and they do not pose a
> great danger.
>
> But you are of course correct that this tag would allow for more specific
> tagging, if this is something that is needed.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jukka (Tolstoi21)
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Michael Brandtner]

 I think I agree with Rainer: You propose to add a  "railway=" tag to a way 
that already has a "highway=" tag. So then why not just add "railway=tram" and 
delete the separate way? If this is not wanted (e.g. for rendering reasons) 
then I think we should use another tag instead of "railway=".
Am Mittwoch, 21. November 2018, 09:55:54 MEZ hat Nikulainen, Jukka K 
 Folgendes geschrieben:  
 
 Hello, and thank you all again for your comments!

>>Le 20 novembre 2018 22:02:01 GMT+01:00, Rainer  a écrit :
>>Sorry that I enter the discussion late.
>>First, is my understanding correct that you want to add a tag on a
>>highway that has embedded tram rails? So e.g. a bicycle router might
>>avoid such highways?
>>Generally a good idea, I think. However to use
>>railway=separately_mapped
>>is not so good in my opinion, because then the way has highway=* and
>>railway=*. What should a renderer do, render a highway or render a
>>railway?
>>As the rails in the highway are a feature that describes the shape of
>>the highway similar to surface=*, I would rather use a new tag
>>embedded_rails=yes or even more precise
>>embedded_rails=tram | embedded_rails=railway.
>>The latter is even worse for bicycles, because the rail grooves are
>>broader.
>>
>>Best regards,

That's a good point, although I don't know whether the renderer is the main 
issue. There are lots of other tags that the renderer (rightly) ignores.
It might be construed as strange that a highway= has a rail= -tag and that the 
railway is, specifically, not rendered. But I'm not sure whether the semantics 
of my tag proposal are troublesome. What do other people think about this? The 
point of my tag-proposal after all is that there _is_, in fact, a pair of rails 
_on_ the highway.

>Hmm, if someone want to do something with the railway key, they will look at 
>the value.
>It's a good proposal.
>Yves

Sorry, I'm not quite sure whether this a comment for or against the rail= -tag, 
but thank you for the input!

Since I initiated the voting process already, could you all please cast a vote 
on the poroposal page ( 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tramtrack_on_highway ) 
and add comments so that in two weeks time I could possibly mend the proposal 
according to the vote and possibly have a new vote on the winning 
tag-identification. Yves, this would also make clear whether you are against or 
for the current proposal.

Thank you all very much, and please vote and add comments on the proposal page!

Sincerely,
Jukka (Tolstoi21)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Nikulainen, Jukka K]

Sorry, I forgot to comment on this earlier

>embedded_rails=yes or even more precise
>embedded_rails=tram | embedded_rails=railway.
>The latter is even worse for bicycles, because the rail grooves are
>broader.

It is true that that would be more precise, but are there in fact any examples 
of this? I mean a railway that runs parallel to _and_ on a road? Usually 
highways do cross railways, but this is not a problem, since one approaches the 
rails (and the grooves) tangentially and they do not pose a great danger.

But you are of course correct that this tag would allow for more specific 
tagging, if this is something that is needed.

Sincerely,
Jukka (Tolstoi21)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Nikulainen, Jukka K]

Hello, and thank you all again for your comments!

>>Le 20 novembre 2018 22:02:01 GMT+01:00, Rainer  a écrit :
>>Sorry that I enter the discussion late.
>>First, is my understanding correct that you want to add a tag on a
>>highway that has embedded tram rails? So e.g. a bicycle router might
>>avoid such highways?
>>Generally a good idea, I think. However to use
>>railway=separately_mapped
>>is not so good in my opinion, because then the way has highway=* and
>>railway=*. What should a renderer do, render a highway or render a
>>railway?
>>As the rails in the highway are a feature that describes the shape of
>>the highway similar to surface=*, I would rather use a new tag
>>embedded_rails=yes or even more precise
>>embedded_rails=tram | embedded_rails=railway.
>>The latter is even worse for bicycles, because the rail grooves are
>>broader.
>>
>>Best regards,

That's a good point, although I don't know whether the renderer is the main 
issue. There are lots of other tags that the renderer (rightly) ignores.
It might be construed as strange that a highway= has a rail= -tag and that the 
railway is, specifically, not rendered. But I'm not sure whether the semantics 
of my tag proposal are troublesome. What do other people think about this? The 
point of my tag-proposal after all is that there _is_, in fact, a pair of rails 
_on_ the highway.

>Hmm, if someone want to do something with the railway key, they will look at 
>the value.
>It's a good proposal.
>Yves

Sorry, I'm not quite sure whether this a comment for or against the rail= -tag, 
but thank you for the input!

Since I initiated the voting process already, could you all please cast a vote 
on the poroposal page ( 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tramtrack_on_highway ) 
and add comments so that in two weeks time I could possibly mend the proposal 
according to the vote and possibly have a new vote on the winning 
tag-identification. Yves, this would also make clear whether you are against or 
for the current proposal.

Thank you all very much, and please vote and add comments on the proposal page!

Sincerely,
Jukka (Tolstoi21)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Sergio Manzi]

I like this very much!

Maybe I'd love it even better if it would be: "surface:embedded 
rails=tram|railway"

Cheers,

Sergio


On 2018-11-20 22:02, Rainer wrote:
> ...
> As the rails in the highway are a feature that describes the shape of the 
> highway similar to surface=*, I would rather use a new tag
> embedded_rails=yes or even more precise
> embedded_rails=tram | embedded_rails=railway.
> ... 



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Yves]

Hmm, if someone want to do something with the railway key, they will look at 
the value.
It's a good proposal.
Yves 

Le 20 novembre 2018 22:02:01 GMT+01:00, Rainer  a écrit :
>Sorry that I enter the discussion late.
>First, is my understanding correct that you want to add a tag on a 
>highway that has embedded tram rails? So e.g. a bicycle router might 
>avoid such highways?
>Generally a good idea, I think. However to use
>railway=separately_mapped 
>is not so good in my opinion, because then the way has highway=* and 
>railway=*. What should a renderer do, render a highway or render a
>railway?
>As the rails in the highway are a feature that describes the shape of 
>the highway similar to surface=*, I would rather use a new tag
>embedded_rails=yes or even more precise
>embedded_rails=tram | embedded_rails=railway.
>The latter is even worse for bicycles, because the rail grooves are
>broader.
>
>Best regards,
>Rainer
>
>Am 20.11.18 um 13:00 schrieb tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org:
>> Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Rainer]

Sorry that I enter the discussion late.
First, is my understanding correct that you want to add a tag on a 
highway that has embedded tram rails? So e.g. a bicycle router might 
avoid such highways?
Generally a good idea, I think. However to use railway=separately_mapped 
is not so good in my opinion, because then the way has highway=* and 
railway=*. What should a renderer do, render a highway or render a railway?
As the rails in the highway are a feature that describes the shape of 
the highway similar to surface=*, I would rather use a new tag

embedded_rails=yes or even more precise
embedded_rails=tram | embedded_rails=railway.
The latter is even worse for bicycles, because the rail grooves are broader.

Best regards,
Rainer

Am 20.11.18 um 13:00 schrieb tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org:

Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Nov 2018, at 22:28, marc marc  wrote:
> 
> no vote is needed to add after vote some exemple of combinaison
> with lane prefix on the "final" wiki page


anyway, there haven’t been cast any votes so far.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[marc marc]

Le 19. 11. 18 à 22:16, Warin a écrit :
> On 19/11/18 20:44, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>>
>> Am Mo., 19. Nov. 2018 um 09:10 Uhr schrieb Nikulainen, Jukka K 
>> mailto:jukka.nikulai...@helsinki.fi>>:
>>
>> Dear all!
>>
>> Thank you for the discussion and excellent critical points. I
>> changed the proposal according to the feedback, and since it has
>> been quiet from then on, I advanced the proposal to Voting (I hope
>> this is OK. Again it's my first proposal even though I am a
>> long-time mapper).
>>
>> Please leave your votes and comments (which are still, of course,
>> most welcome) at:
>>
>> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tramtrack_on_highway
>>
>>
>>
>> sorry for coming late with this, but I would think it could be 
>> beneficial to also think about lane mapping, and show with an example 
>> how a typical 4 lanes road would be mapped, where 2 lanes are shared 
>> between trams and other vehicles.
>>
>> I am not completely sure, but I believe this is the current preferred 
>> method for lane properties:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes
> 
> The page should not be changed once voting commences.
> 
> Solution:
> Stop the voting.
> Make the changes.
> Start a new vote discarding any old votes.

or continue the current propal without the lane suffix.

lane suffix is not the target of the propal it-self
it's common on several tag (access, maxspeed, ...)
no vote is needed to add after vote some exemple of combinaison
with lane prefix on the "final" wiki page
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Warin]

On 19/11/18 20:44, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



Am Mo., 19. Nov. 2018 um 09:10 Uhr schrieb Nikulainen, Jukka K 
mailto:jukka.nikulai...@helsinki.fi>>:


Dear all!

Thank you for the discussion and excellent critical points. I
changed the proposal according to the feedback, and since it has
been quiet from then on, I advanced the proposal to Voting (I hope
this is OK. Again it's my first proposal even though I am a
long-time mapper).

Please leave your votes and comments (which are still, of course,
most welcome) at:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tramtrack_on_highway



sorry for coming late with this, but I would think it could be 
beneficial to also think about lane mapping, and show with an example 
how a typical 4 lanes road would be mapped, where 2 lanes are shared 
between trams and other vehicles.


I am not completely sure, but I believe this is the current preferred 
method for lane properties:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes


The page should not be changed once voting commences.

Solution:
Stop the voting.
Make the changes.
Start a new vote discarding any old votes.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Nikulainen, Jukka K]

Hi Martin

That's a good point about the lanes, which I hadn't thought about previously. 
In Helsinki, the tram lines either run only on one-laned highways or on a 
separate patch between multi-laned highways. But that only explain why I hadn't 
thought about it earlier.

Would the semantics still work with the current tag value proposal? So it would 
be:

lanes=4
railway:lanes=||separately_mapped|

if there is a tramtrack only on the third lane?

But a Good point. Perhaps the proposal page would benefit from more examples! 
I'm busy this week, but can hopefully add them next week.

Sincerely,
Jukka (Tolstoi21)
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 19. Nov. 2018 um 09:10 Uhr schrieb Nikulainen, Jukka K <
jukka.nikulai...@helsinki.fi>:

> Dear all!
>
> Thank you for the discussion and excellent critical points. I changed the
> proposal according to the feedback, and since it has been quiet from then
> on, I advanced the proposal to Voting (I hope this is OK. Again it's my
> first proposal even though I am a long-time mapper).
>
> Please leave your votes and comments (which are still, of course, most
> welcome) at:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tramtrack_on_highway



sorry for coming late with this, but I would think it could be beneficial
to also think about lane mapping, and show with an example how a typical 4
lanes road would be mapped, where 2 lanes are shared between trams and
other vehicles.

I am not completely sure, but I believe this is the current preferred
method for lane properties:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Tramtrack_on_highway)

[Nikulainen, Jukka K]

Dear all!

Thank you for the discussion and excellent critical points. I changed the 
proposal according to the feedback, and since it has been quiet from then on, I 
advanced the proposal to Voting (I hope this is OK. Again it's my first 
proposal even though I am a long-time mapper).

Please leave your votes and comments (which are still, of course, most welcome) 
at:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tramtrack_on_highway

Sincerely,
Jukka (Tolstoi21)
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