Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Michael Patrick]

Similar to 'ice roads'  in Canada
and Siberia. Minnesota .
In Oregon wet-sand portion of the state’s beaches have been set aside as a
state highway .
Not roads,but a trails, In Montana, with some access restrictions, one can
traverse any property below the high watermark
.

Michael Patrick
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Warin]

On 09/12/18 02:50, Tod Fitch wrote:


It would be nice if there was a way to tag the intermittent flow as ephemeral 
but that has been “bike shedded” to death here before. I know/hope that anyone 
local will have a pretty good idea about whether or not there is likely to be 
water in the drainage (a summer cloudburst locally or in the adjacent higher 
ground) and be smart enough not to enter it for the couple of hours that a 
water event is likely to last.



Simply start using it ...

ephemeral=yes

Many tags start without any discussion here.


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Tod Fitch]

> On Dec 8, 2018, at 2:31 AM, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> I would recommend drawing a separate “way” for the highway. I imagine that 
> the route taken by vehicles or people walking is a few meters off of the 
> center of the waterway, and perhaps a little straighter. If you are coarsest 
> tracing the waterway and road, then the two ways might share most of their 
> nodes.

As soon as I got to your “I imagine that” I decided you’ve no experience in 
this and I should discount anything that follows.

In the desert southwest of the United States where I was raised they call the 
usually dry water courses a “wash”. And they are often used for vehicle travel 
when dry which is almost all of the time. In hilly or mountainous areas the 
width of the waterway is often no wider than most vehicles so there is no place 
“a few meters off the center of the waterway”. And my experience in 
walking/hiking along them is you are often in the middle of the most recent 
route of flood waters as the walking is easier there (less debris, etc.).

 I don’t like the OSM mapping options but what I’ve settled on is a single way 
tagged as:

ford=yes
highway=track
intermittent=yes
surface=sand
waterway=stream

Some of the washes have names. Some of the tracks have names. Sometimes they 
both have names and occasionally the two names differ. I haven’t a solution for 
that.

It would be nice if there was a way to tag the intermittent flow as ephemeral 
but that has been “bike shedded” to death here before. I know/hope that anyone 
local will have a pretty good idea about whether or not there is likely to be 
water in the drainage (a summer cloudburst locally or in the adjacent higher 
ground) and be smart enough not to enter it for the couple of hours that a 
water event is likely to last.

Cheers!



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Yves]

There's two solutions:
A single way tagged highway and waterway.
Or two ways sharing some nodes or not, one tagged as a highway with an 
additional tag saying it can be flooded, and the other a waterway with an 
additional tag cause it can be dry, and another tag saying you may encounter 
cars on it.
Yves 

Le 8 décembre 2018 10:25:49 GMT+01:00, ??? ?? ? -? Dar 
Alathar-Yemen  a écrit :
>Many waterways (wadis) in our region used as roads when no rain days.
>How to tag them? is it allowed to use (waterway + highway) in same way?
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Andy Townsend]

On 08/12/2018 11:19, Warin wrote:


Fords are where the water runs across the road.. not along with it... 
at least that is the common situation here.



We have more water than you :)

A regular ford does just go across the road, but one that shares the 
road for a bit is called a "long ford". 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=20=53.137329=-1.468145 
is an example (https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/42000985 in OSM).


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Warin]

On 08/12/18 21:57, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 08/12/2018 10:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
I would recommend drawing a separate “way” for the highway. I imagine 
that the route taken by vehicles or people walking is a few meters 
off of the center of the waterway, and perhaps a little straighter. 
If you are coarsest tracing the waterway and road, then the two ways 
might share most of their nodes.



Drawing separate ways for highway and waterway but sharing the same 
nodes will also lead to problems - there's no way that data consumers 
will know that this highway is also a waterway.  If you're going to do 
that then you'll need to add some other tag to the highway to say "you 
may get wet".


My experience:
You may get wet ...once in twenty years.
You will get bogged trying to get to them. Most people set up camp and 
wait for the road to dry out.
Local councils usually have fines in place for people that travel on 
their roads in wet conditions and damage them... ones I have been told 
of were $1000 per vehicle axle but that was many years ago, probable 
gone up since then.

(Think of an Australian 'road train' with ~13 axles)



Highways and waterways using exactly the same route is pretty common 
where I am in the UK - they're called "long fords" (we don't have many 
wadis), and a ford=yes tag allows renderers to process them.  I'd 
imagine for wadis some other tag (maybe some sort of "hazard"?) would 
be more appropriate, but it needs something.


Fords are where the water runs across the road.. not along with it... at 
least that is the common situation here.


I do know of one that follows the creek bed for some distance .. and 
that one is wet most of the time. And it is a rocky bottom.


It would be nice to be able to tag them -
water frequency, depth?, ?
road 'surface' (once through any water), ?

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Warin]

On 08/12/18 21:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
I would recommend drawing a separate “way” for the highway. I imagine 
that the route taken by vehicles or people walking is a few meters off 
of the center of the waterway, and perhaps a little straighter. If you 
are coarsest tracing the waterway and road, then the two ways might 
share most of their nodes.


I don't think you have used them. The ones I have used:
The waterway will vary from one flow to the next by some meters - they 
are sand bottoms. The rivers when flowing are 10s of metres wide.

Some flood in flatter areas.
The road/track will change after a rain event by meters to make best use 
of the changed topography.

The are mostly sandy bottoms - meters wide. Take a look at the Todd River in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ephemeral#Examples

The way shown in OSM (or any map) is a guide.
I would not take the trouble to offset one from the other, if it were 
done then it is bound to be on the wrong side :)


On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 7:28 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 08/12/18 20:25, ??? ?? ? -? Dar
Alathar-Yemen wrote:


Many waterways (wadis) in our region used as roads when no rain days.

How to tag them? is it allowed to use (waterway + highway) in
same way?



Similar problems in Australia


Many ephemeral rivers are used for vehicles and some are used as
hiking paths.


For the hiking paths as these are routes I have simply made them
into members of the route.


Tagging both as highway + waterway will lead to problems.


Using the route relation has worked for the hiking trails that I
have done so far.

That might work for highways too, make a relation with the normal
highways and waterways as a route.



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Andy Townsend]

On 08/12/2018 10:31, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
I would recommend drawing a separate “way” for the highway. I imagine 
that the route taken by vehicles or people walking is a few meters off 
of the center of the waterway, and perhaps a little straighter. If you 
are coarsest tracing the waterway and road, then the two ways might 
share most of their nodes.



Drawing separate ways for highway and waterway but sharing the same 
nodes will also lead to problems - there's no way that data consumers 
will know that this highway is also a waterway.  If you're going to do 
that then you'll need to add some other tag to the highway to say "you 
may get wet".


Highways and waterways using exactly the same route is pretty common 
where I am in the UK - they're called "long fords" (we don't have many 
wadis), and a ford=yes tag allows renderers to process them.  I'd 
imagine for wadis some other tag (maybe some sort of "hazard"?) would be 
more appropriate, but it needs something.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I would recommend drawing a separate “way” for the highway. I imagine that
the route taken by vehicles or people walking is a few meters off of the
center of the waterway, and perhaps a little straighter. If you are
coarsest tracing the waterway and road, then the two ways might share most
of their nodes.
On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 7:28 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 08/12/18 20:25, ??? ?? ? -? Dar Alathar-Yemen wrote:
>
> Many waterways (wadis) in our region used as roads when no rain days.
>
> How to tag them? is it allowed to use (waterway + highway) in same way?
>
>
>
>
> Similar problems in Australia
>
>
> Many ephemeral rivers are used for vehicles and some are used as hiking
> paths.
>
>
> For the hiking paths as these are routes I have simply made them into
> members of the route.
>
>
> Tagging both as highway + waterway will lead to problems.
>
>
> Using the route relation has worked for the hiking trails that I have done
> so far.
>
> That might work for highways too, make a relation with the normal
> highways and waterways as a route.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[Warin]

On 08/12/18 20:25, ??? ?? ? -? Dar Alathar-Yemen wrote:


Many waterways (wadis) in our region used as roads when no rain days.

How to tag them? is it allowed to use (waterway + highway) in same way?



Similar problems in Australia


Many ephemeral rivers are used for vehicles and some are used as hiking 
paths.



For the hiking paths as these are routes I have simply made them into 
members of the route.



Tagging both as highway + waterway will lead to problems.


Using the route relation has worked for the hiking trails that I have 
done so far.


That might work for highways too, make a relation with the normal 
highways and waterways as a route.




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[Tagging] How to tag shared waterway highway

[??? ?????? ????? ????????-????? Dar Alathar-Yemen]

Many waterways (wadis) in our region used as roads when no rain days.
How to tag them? is it allowed to use (waterway + highway) in same way?


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