Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 23:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 26. Aug 2019, at 13:54, Paul Allen wrote: > > > > Third problem is that although the ones my local supermarket recently > installed have > > signs (which,so far, are being completely ignored) saying they are only > for charging, > On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 23:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > Is it really „parking“? Yes, I would say that they are primarily a parking space. Yes, you could plug your car in for 5 minutes while you go in to the shops & get a loaf of bread, bottle of milk & the morning paper, but that would be pretty pointless (at least with the current (sorry! :-)) type of chargers, which take several hours to charge a car). It would be the same as pulling into a petrol station & putting 1l of fuel into your car. Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 08:53, Paul Allen wrote: > On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 23:35, Graeme Fitzpatrick > wrote: > >> >> A bit messy, but how about >> amenity=parking_space + access=vehicle_charging_only >> > > Big problem right there: you're expanding on the access tag. Some on this > list will > take great exception to that. Some editors will take even greater > exception to it as > they populate drop-downs from the wiki, so when you map a road the access > drop-down > will include yes, no, private, vehicle_charging_only. Which is why the > parking_space > proposal invented access:. And even that is pushing things, a > little. > Yes, you're quite right there - I hadn't thought that side of access= through > car_charging=yes/no >> truck_charging=yes/no >> hgv_charging=yes/no >> > > And this will re-open hostilities in a different argument about the > undesirability of having all > those different binary tags instead of charging=car|truck|hgv. Or was it > the other way > around that was undesirable? I forget now. > I "think" it was charging=car|truck|hgv arrangement that wasn't liked because of semi-colons, but you're right - it could be the other way round! On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 21:56, Paul Allen wrote: > On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 01:37, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> amenity=charging _space? Says what it is. >> > > First problem is that goes against the design of amenity=parking_space. > Somebody > will then decide to have amenity=disabled_parking_space rather than use the > appropriate subtag with amenity=parking_space. > & then, in a few years as electric vehicles become more popular, you'll have disabled, charging bays! (Which started as a joke but is actually quite correct - charging bike racks, perhaps?) Thanks Graeme > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
sent from a phone > On 26. Aug 2019, at 13:54, Paul Allen wrote: > > Third problem is that although the ones my local supermarket recently > installed have > signs (which,so far, are being completely ignored) saying they are only for > charging, > in other places (particularly as charging stations become more common) such > spaces > may not be restricted to charging but allow parking of any kind. In fact > it's very likely to > happen whenever/wherever the proportion of charging spaces is significantly > larger > than the proportion of electric vehicles. Your method does not permit such > dual-use > situations to be mapped. I would say these are two different things: one is a parking space which offers battery charging if you like, the other is a charging space where you are not allowed to park (i.e. the second is not a kind of parking space, regardless of access tags, it is a different main class). Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
sent from a phone > On 26. Aug 2019, at 00:33, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > A bit messy, but how about > amenity=parking_space + access=vehicle_charging_only > car_charging=yes/no > truck_charging=yes/no > hgv_charging=yes/no Is it really „parking“? Maybe we should introduce an amenity=charging_space? Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 01:37, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > amenity=charging _space? Says what it is. > First problem is that goes against the design of amenity=parking_space. Somebody will then decide to have amenity=disabled_parking_space rather than use the appropriate subtag with amenity=parking_space. I'm not saying amenity=parking_space is perfect, but it's there and I hesitate to invent yet another way of doing things. Second problem is that a car parked there to charge is actually parked there. So it's still a parking space, in the same way that a disabled parking space is still a parking space. There are restrictions on who can use it, but it's still a parking space. Third problem is that although the ones my local supermarket recently installed have signs (which,so far, are being completely ignored) saying they are only for charging, in other places (particularly as charging stations become more common) such spaces may not be restricted to charging but allow parking of any kind. In fact it's very likely to happen whenever/wherever the proportion of charging spaces is significantly larger than the proportion of electric vehicles. Your method does not permit such dual-use situations to be mapped. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
amenity=charging _space? Says what it is. On 26/08/19 08:52, Paul Allen wrote: On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 23:35, Graeme Fitzpatrick mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 23:53, Paul Allen mailto:pla16...@gmail.com>> wrote: So it looks like, for the charging spaces, amenity=parking_space + access:= is the way to go. A bit messy, but how about amenity=parking_space + access=vehicle_charging_only Big problem right there: you're expanding on the access tag. Some on this list will take great exception to that. Some editors will take even greater exception to it as they populate drop-downs from the wiki, so when you map a road the access drop-down will include yes, no, private, vehicle_charging_only. Which is why the parking_space proposal invented access:. And even that is pushing things, a little. car_charging=yes/no truck_charging=yes/no hgv_charging=yes/no And this will re-open hostilities in a different argument about the undesirability of having all those different binary tags instead of charging=car|truck|hgv. Or was it the other way around that was undesirable? I forget now. so you could specify that this space is for car charging only, or hgv only (although I don't think buses, trucks & HGVs would be put on charge while doing deliveries at the supermarket!) The one I want to map is in a supermarket car park and the parking spaces are only big enough for a car. But larger vehicles also use that car park, with RVs being frequent and the UK intends to have all motor vehicles be electric at some future date. Eventually the supermarket will have a few charging points with spaces that can accept RVs. Supermarket car parks may never cater to HGVs but other places will have to, given the range of electric vehicles. I'd prefer it if we don't come up with something that only works for cars and a few years down the line wish we'd done it differently because we now have to handle other types of vehicle. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 23:35, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 23:53, Paul Allen wrote: > >> >> So it looks like, for the charging spaces, amenity=parking_space + >> access:= is the way >> to go. >> > > A bit messy, but how about > amenity=parking_space + access=vehicle_charging_only > Big problem right there: you're expanding on the access tag. Some on this list will take great exception to that. Some editors will take even greater exception to it as they populate drop-downs from the wiki, so when you map a road the access drop-down will include yes, no, private, vehicle_charging_only. Which is why the parking_space proposal invented access:. And even that is pushing things, a little. car_charging=yes/no > truck_charging=yes/no > hgv_charging=yes/no > And this will re-open hostilities in a different argument about the undesirability of having all those different binary tags instead of charging=car|truck|hgv. Or was it the other way around that was undesirable? I forget now. > > so you could specify that this space is for car charging only, or hgv only > (although I don't think buses, trucks & HGVs would be put on charge while > doing deliveries at the supermarket!) > The one I want to map is in a supermarket car park and the parking spaces are only big enough for a car. But larger vehicles also use that car park, with RVs being frequent and the UK intends to have all motor vehicles be electric at some future date. Eventually the supermarket will have a few charging points with spaces that can accept RVs. Supermarket car parks may never cater to HGVs but other places will have to, given the range of electric vehicles. I'd prefer it if we don't come up with something that only works for cars and a few years down the line wish we'd done it differently because we now have to handle other types of vehicle. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 23:53, Paul Allen wrote: > > So it looks like, for the charging spaces, amenity=parking_space + > access:= is the way > to go. > A bit messy, but how about amenity=parking_space + access=vehicle_charging_only car_charging=yes/no truck_charging=yes/no hgv_charging=yes/no so you could specify that this space is for car charging only, or hgv only (although I don't think buses, trucks & HGVs would be put on charge while doing deliveries at the supermarket!) Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 15:05, yo paseopor wrote: > > amenity=parking_spaces > capacity=1 or 2 or 3 > access=customers > Nothing I've read states that only customers can use it, or that there is any time limit imposed. I think they're assuming that nobody is going to drive there just to charge their car and hang around for several hours. But it's possible. charging=only > Doesn't fit the access: stuff already defined by the proposal. And can be handled, if we agree on the name for the role, as access=no + access:=yes. The proposal doesn't say, but that's how I'd assumed disabled parking is handled where the space is only for disabled parking. Assume there will not be any hgv trying to charge in a supermarket parking > as they don't park there with or without traffic sign which says that. > Long RVs do park there (this is a tourist area). And cars towing open-top trailers of varying lengths (this is an agricultural area). And trucks. I chose HGV there to illustrate the largest size of electric vehicle that may appear and may stop off at a supermarket (to buy sandwiches for lunch or whatever). I'm trying to anticipate future needs so we don't paint ourselves into a corner and regret it later. Current plans in the UK are for all motor vehicles to be electric. Exceptions will probably be made, but we ought to design our tags around the possibility that it will indeed be all motor vehicles. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
Here in Spain chargers like this are used by motor_vehicles but forget about it, because before they have to be clients. I think this would be best definition for access. But also I will use other key to specify they have to be charging. You can find other places where charging would be not compulsory so it is better to prepare the map for this. My option would be for the parking spot (charger would be mapped separately): amenity=parking_spaces capacity=1 or 2 or 3 access=customers charging=only Assume there will not be any hgv trying to charge in a supermarket parking as they don't park there with or without traffic sign which says that. Salut i mapes yopaseopor On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 3:53 PM Paul Allen wrote: > My local supermarket recently added two car charging stations. Each > charging station took over three existing parking spaces. This is > apparently a nation-wide roll-out by the supermarket chain, so this > is going to apply to many places in the UK. It's also a likely > arrangement of other charging stations. See > https://pod-point.com/electric-car-news/tesco-volkswagen-pod-point > > The charging station itself is at the end of a former parking space, > and that space now has cross-hatch lines indicating there is no > parking there. Actually, you could fit a "half car" like a Smart in there, > but people around here are stupid or selfish enough that without > the restriction they'd park a full-size car there blocking half of the > parking aisle (and some would manage to drive into the charging > station and wreck it). > > The two parking spaces adjacent to the charging station are now > signed as being for charging only and not for ordinary parking. > The signage is in Welsh, not in English. So I'll be charitable and > assume that the non-electric vehicles parked in the spaces for > electric vehicles were owned by people who don't speak Welsh > (it's tourist season, so that is very possible). More likely they're > stupid and/or selfish local people of the kind who happily park > in the spaces for disabled people despite not being disabled and > were not transporting disabled passengers. > > Anyway, it would be nice to be able to mark these two types of spaces > in some way: the "you can no longer park here because there's a > charging station at the end of it" and the "park here to charge your > car" spaces. One way (perhaps the best, although it takes > slightly more effort to map it) of dealing with the "you can no longer > park here" would be with a multipolygon to cut a hole in the car park. > Which just leaves the charging bays themselves. The wiki page > for amenity=parking_space doesn't actually document how to do > this, even for disabled parking, but refers to the proposal > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/parking > > So it looks like, for the charging spaces, amenity=parking_space + > access:= is the way > to go. So what is a suitable role? In the particular case I'm > mapping, they are parking spaces for cars; longer vehicles won't > fit, but it's entirely possible charging facilities that accommodate > longer vehicles will appear in the future. So access:car_charging, > with access:truck_charging, access:hgv_charging being added > as possibilities later, if required? Or access:vehicle_charging > and let people eyeball the map to figure out if their vehicle will > fit? Or access:vehicle_charging with either of the inadequately- > documented vehicle=* or service:vehicle=*? Or something else? > > Any thoughts? > > -- > Paul > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Parking spaces for car charging
My local supermarket recently added two car charging stations. Each charging station took over three existing parking spaces. This is apparently a nation-wide roll-out by the supermarket chain, so this is going to apply to many places in the UK. It's also a likely arrangement of other charging stations. See https://pod-point.com/electric-car-news/tesco-volkswagen-pod-point The charging station itself is at the end of a former parking space, and that space now has cross-hatch lines indicating there is no parking there. Actually, you could fit a "half car" like a Smart in there, but people around here are stupid or selfish enough that without the restriction they'd park a full-size car there blocking half of the parking aisle (and some would manage to drive into the charging station and wreck it). The two parking spaces adjacent to the charging station are now signed as being for charging only and not for ordinary parking. The signage is in Welsh, not in English. So I'll be charitable and assume that the non-electric vehicles parked in the spaces for electric vehicles were owned by people who don't speak Welsh (it's tourist season, so that is very possible). More likely they're stupid and/or selfish local people of the kind who happily park in the spaces for disabled people despite not being disabled and were not transporting disabled passengers. Anyway, it would be nice to be able to mark these two types of spaces in some way: the "you can no longer park here because there's a charging station at the end of it" and the "park here to charge your car" spaces. One way (perhaps the best, although it takes slightly more effort to map it) of dealing with the "you can no longer park here" would be with a multipolygon to cut a hole in the car park. Which just leaves the charging bays themselves. The wiki page for amenity=parking_space doesn't actually document how to do this, even for disabled parking, but refers to the proposal https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/parking So it looks like, for the charging spaces, amenity=parking_space + access:= is the way to go. So what is a suitable role? In the particular case I'm mapping, they are parking spaces for cars; longer vehicles won't fit, but it's entirely possible charging facilities that accommodate longer vehicles will appear in the future. So access:car_charging, with access:truck_charging, access:hgv_charging being added as possibilities later, if required? Or access:vehicle_charging and let people eyeball the map to figure out if their vehicle will fit? Or access:vehicle_charging with either of the inadequately- documented vehicle=* or service:vehicle=*? Or something else? Any thoughts? -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
