[Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones
Hello, Following from this analysis [1], I would like to propose that we abandon cobblestone:flattened, define the new value cobblestone:raised for a rare case, and redefine existing values as follows: - paving_stones: blocks or stones with smooth flat top, tight gaps [same images as today] - sett: hewn stones with flat top, wide filled gaps, comfortable to cycle and walk on, uncomfortable on high heels [today's image and also [2] used previously for sett] - cobblestone: hewn stones with slightly arched top, wide filled gaps, uncomfortable to cycle on, difficult on high heels [images [3] and [4] used previously for cobblestone:flattened and cobblestone] - cobblestone:raised: natural or hewn stones with very round/irregular top, wide empty gaps, fixed to a bedding, difficult to cycle and walk on, uncomfortable to drive on [images [5] and [6] used previously for cobblestone but rejected] - cobblestone:flattened: never (to avoid confusion) What do you think? This follows from two previous discussions here: [7] and [8]. [1] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681775#p681775 [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ec/Dscf1641-800.jpg [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Kasseien.jpg [4] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Guzow-oryszew_road_cm03.jpg [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/2/20/Koppenberg_cobbles.jpg [6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/1/10/ItalianStones.jpg [7] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-January/034795.html [8] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-January/034816.html -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 "Nullius in verba." ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones
Seems to be a good idea for me. Requires rushing of real cobblestones, but solves problem of mixing setts colloquially named cobblestone and real cobblestone. So we stop pretending that current tags are correctly used and increase changes that we can distinguish cobblestone and uneven sett. On 22 Jan 2018 5:27 p.m., "Fernando Trebien" wrote: > Hello, > > Following from this analysis [1], I would like to propose that we > abandon cobblestone:flattened, define the new value cobblestone:raised > for a rare case, and redefine existing values as follows: > > - paving_stones: blocks or stones with smooth flat top, tight gaps > [same images as today] > > - sett: hewn stones with flat top, wide filled gaps, comfortable to > cycle and walk on, uncomfortable on high heels [today's image and also > [2] used previously for sett] > > - cobblestone: hewn stones with slightly arched top, wide filled gaps, > uncomfortable to cycle on, difficult on high heels [images [3] and [4] > used previously for cobblestone:flattened and cobblestone] > > - cobblestone:raised: natural or hewn stones with very round/irregular > top, wide empty gaps, fixed to a bedding, difficult to cycle and walk > on, uncomfortable to drive on [images [5] and [6] used previously for > cobblestone but rejected] > > - cobblestone:flattened: never (to avoid confusion) > > What do you think? > > This follows from two previous discussions here: [7] and [8]. > > [1] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681775#p681775 > [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ec/Dscf1641-800.jpg > [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Kasseien.jpg > [4] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Guzow- > oryszew_road_cm03.jpg > [5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/2/20/Koppenberg_cobbles.jpg > [6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/1/10/ItalianStones.jpg > [7] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018- > January/034795.html > [8] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018- > January/034816.html > > -- > Fernando Trebien > +55 (51) 9962-5409 > > "Nullius in verba." > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones
On 22.01.2018 17:25, Fernando Trebien wrote: > - sett: hewn stones with flat top (...) [2] (...)> - cobblestone: hewn stones > with slightly arched top (...) images [3] and [4] I don't believe requiring mappers to make a distinction between these two is a good idea. Let's look at your images: > [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ec/Dscf1641-800.jpg > [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Kasseien.jpg > [4] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Guzow-oryszew_road_cm03.jpg If I read your mail correctly, you suggest that [3] and [4] belong in the same category, while [2] is a fundamentally different surface type. But when I look at these, [2] and [3] feel a lot more similar to each other than [4] is to either of them. Yours, Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones
2018-01-22 17:25 GMT+01:00 Fernando Trebien : > - paving_stones: blocks or stones with smooth flat top, tight gaps > [same images as today] > ok > - sett: hewn stones with flat top, wide filled gaps, comfortable to > cycle and walk on, uncomfortable on high heels [today's image and also > [2] used previously for sett] > ok, although it remains unclear what "filled" gaps means. Is this purposefully filled (e.g. with sand, or bitumen), or is it about them being old? You'll hardly find open gaps in older pavements, because they will fill themselves. > - cobblestone: hewn stones with slightly arched top, wide filled gaps, > uncomfortable to cycle on, difficult on high heels [images [3] and [4] > used previously for cobblestone:flattened and cobblestone] > difficult to distinguish from your previous example (sett) > > - cobblestone:raised: natural or hewn stones with very round/irregular > top, wide empty gaps, fixed to a bedding, difficult to cycle and walk > on, uncomfortable to drive on [images [5] and [6] used previously for > cobblestone but rejected] > again "empty gaps", same comment as for filled gaps. "uncomfortable" for driving in a car? Depends on the suspension of the car I'd say. I agree that these seem to occur more rarely than the cobblestone:flattened, although around here it is full of them (in old villages / towns). > > - cobblestone:flattened: never (to avoid confusion) > OK by me, only 4 271 of these, and most cobblestone tagged surfaces would maybe be better described as cobblestone:flattened (current definitions). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote: > On 22.01.2018 17:25, Fernando Trebien wrote: >> - sett: hewn stones with flat top (...) [2] (...)> - cobblestone: hewn >> stones with slightly arched top (...) images [3] > and [4] > > I don't believe requiring mappers to make a distinction between these > two is a good idea. Let's look at your images: > >> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/e/ec/Dscf1641-800.jpg >> [3] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Kasseien.jpg >> [4] > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Guzow-oryszew_road_cm03.jpg > > If I read your mail correctly, you suggest that [3] and [4] belong in > the same category, while [2] is a fundamentally different surface type. > > But when I look at these, [2] and [3] feel a lot more similar to each > other than [4] is to either of them. [2] and [3] are similar according to the layout pattern (regular, cuboid stones), whereas [3] and [4] are similar according to their usability by various modes of travel (car, bicycle, foot - shoes, foot - high heels). This is because in [2] the stones are mostly flat, whereas in [3] and in [4] they are slightly arched. Having an arched top (but not as round as [6]) has been pointed out as a distinctive character by both British [9][10] and German [11] mappers. [9] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681311#p681311 [10] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681502#p681502 [11] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=681773#p681773 -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 "Nullius in verba." ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for surface=cobblestone/sett/paving_stones
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:14 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2018-01-22 17:25 GMT+01:00 Fernando Trebien : >> - sett: hewn stones with flat top, wide filled gaps, comfortable to >> cycle and walk on, uncomfortable on high heels [today's image and also >> [2] used previously for sett] > > ok, although it remains unclear what "filled" gaps means. Is this > purposefully filled (e.g. with sand, or bitumen), or is it about them being > old? You'll hardly find open gaps in older pavements, because they will fill > themselves. I would make no distinction between the two cases. The filling makes the difference in height between the stones and the gaps less pronounced, so it produces a smoother surface, especially it is nearly at the same height as the stones. >> - cobblestone: hewn stones with slightly arched top, wide filled gaps, >> uncomfortable to cycle on, difficult on high heels [images [3] and [4] >> used previously for cobblestone:flattened and cobblestone] > > difficult to distinguish from your previous example (sett) From the opinions I've found from British and German mappers, I think the distinction is perhaps almost irrelevant for large vehicles such as cars, but significant for smaller vehicles such as bicycles, and also for pedestrians (both those wearing shoes and those wearing high heels). We can use the images that have already been used as examples (I think the threshold lies between images 4 and 5): https://i.imgur.com/HYmjeO6.jpg We can also try to define it more technically (what does it mean to be "slightly" arched). Right now, or as a future refinement of the difference. But I think we can't escape the issue of borderline cases (that happen also with other values of surface=*) and this hasn't prevented mappers from making sensible choices. >> - cobblestone:raised: natural or hewn stones with very round/irregular >> top, wide empty gaps, fixed to a bedding, difficult to cycle and walk >> on, uncomfortable to drive on [images [5] and [6] used previously for >> cobblestone but rejected] > > again "empty gaps", same comment as for filled gaps. > "uncomfortable" for driving in a car? Depends on the suspension of the car > I'd say. > I agree that these seem to occur more rarely than the cobblestone:flattened, > although around here it is full of them (in old villages / towns). I'm proposing this because I think, looking at the wiki edit history, that cobblestone:flattened has caused some confusion depending on what definition of "cobblestone" a mapper has in mind - the vernacular, arched, cuboid type [3] or the technical, fully roundish type [4][6]. So, if its usage is low, maybe it's a good idea to get rid of it to improve clarity overall. It would be a much smaller effort than trying to make sett and cobblestone adhere to their exact technical definitions. -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 "Nullius in verba." ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging