[Tagging] Public transport cards

[Warin]

Hi,

There is a move away from public transport tickets to public transport 
cards.


Is there any provision for these cards in OSM tagging?


It should provide for;

recharge of these cards from a shop and/or a vending machine.

purchase of a card from a shop and/or a vending machine.


I would think the present use of public_transport_ticket could be 
duplicated with a similar tagging for

public_transport_cards.




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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Tijmen Stam]

On 16-01-17 22:20, Warin wrote:

Hi,

There is a move away from public transport tickets to public transport
cards.

Is there any provision for these cards in OSM tagging?


It should provide for;

recharge of these cards from a shop and/or a vending machine.

purchase of a card from a shop and/or a vending machine.


I would think the present use of public_transport_ticket could be
duplicated with a similar tagging for
public_transport_cards.


There could be some tagging of vending machines.

However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public 
transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped 
in OSM.



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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :

> However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public
> transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in
> OSM.



+1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending,
and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards
towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it
might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Marc Zoutendijk]

> Op 17 jan. 2017, om 11:02 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer  
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam  >:
> However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public transport. 
> It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in OSM.
> 
> 
> +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending, 
> and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards 
> towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it 
> might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)


+1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is 
using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of 
public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out 
when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…

Marc.




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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue Jan 17 10:02:14 2017 GMT, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :
> 
> > However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public
> > transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in
> > OSM.
> 
> 
> 
> +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending,
> and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards
> towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it
> might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
>
Very true, in London for example tourists  and occasional users no longer need 
oyster cards and simply use their contactless debit/credit card.

Phil (trigpoint)
 
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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue Jan 17 10:51:10 2017 GMT, Marc Zoutendijk wrote:
> 
> > Op 17 jan. 2017, om 11:02 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer 
> >  het volgende geschreven:
> > 
> > 
> > 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam  > >:
> > However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public transport. 
> > It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in OSM.
> > 
> > 
> > +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending, 
> > and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards 
> > towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it 
> > might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
> 
> 
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is 
> using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of 
> public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out 
> when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…
> 
Not, true, the public transport layer in OSM is really useful to give an idea 
of where you can go and who the operator is. Traveline or opertors start with 
the assumption that you know where you want to go.

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Éric Gillet]

2017-01-17 11:51 GMT+01:00 Marc Zoutendijk :

>
> Op 17 jan. 2017, om 11:02 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
>
>
> 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :
>
>> However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public
>> transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in
>> OSM.
>
>
>
> +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending,
> and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards
> towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it
> might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
>
>
>
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who
> is using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user
> of public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find
> out when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM
>

Just right this morning I tried to find where PT stops are localized when
making a route, and this is not possible with the transport company website

(there
is only a schematic map), so I had to use OSM.

However you're right, OSM stand little chance if used by itself for PT
routing and other needs, but can be a big help when associated with other
data sources (like what the folks at CityMapper do).
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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2017-01-17 at 13:54 +0100, Éric Gillet wrote:
> 2017-01-17 11:51 GMT+01:00 Marc Zoutendijk :
> > 
> > > Op 17 jan. 2017, om 11:02 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer 
> > > @gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :
> > > > However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for
> > > > public transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes
> > > > overmicromapped in OSM.
> > > 
> > > +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket
> > > vending, and there's generally a move away from any kind of
> > > physical ticket or cards towards electronic solutions in
> > > combination with smartphones etc., so it might not even be worth
> > > the hazzle ;-)
> > 
> > +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single
> > person who is using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m
> > a very heavy user of public transport and I always use the website
> > from the operator to find out when/where/how my bus/train is going.
> > I would not even think of OSM
> > 
> Just right this morning I tried to find where PT stops are localized
> when making a route, and this is not possible with the transport
> company website (there is only a schematic map), so I had to use OSM.
> 
> However you're right, OSM stand little chance if used by itself for
> PT routing and other needs, but can be a big help when associated
> with other data sources (like what the folks at CityMapper do).
OSM is certainly used, here in the UK traveline use OSM on their maps
and their employees do edit OSM to improve routing.
Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[ael]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:51:10AM +0100, Marc Zoutendijk wrote:
> 
> > +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending, 
> > and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards 
> > towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it 
> > might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
> 
> 
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is 
> using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of 
> public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out 
> when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…


I have used /www.traveline.info/ which uses OSM although also additional
data bases, I understand. A member of their team often posts here, I
think.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 4:02 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2017-01-17 8:47 GMT+01:00 Tijmen Stam :
>
>> However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public
>> transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped in
>> OSM.
>
>
>
> +1, I'd see public_transport cards somehow included in the ticket vending,
> and there's generally a move away from any kind of physical ticket or cards
> towards electronic solutions in combination with smartphones etc., so it
> might not even be worth the hazzle ;-)
>

Counterargument: The unbanked population is rapidly increasing, leaving
electronic payment options unavailable.  Also, tourists and infrequent/new
riders that may not have a compatible electronic option available.  Knowing
where to obtain a ticket/card/whatever with hard currency is immensely
useful in these situations.
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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marc Zoutendijk
 wrote:
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is
> using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of
> public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out
> when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…

I thought several PT companies are experimenting with OSM. See e.g.
[1] which is a presentation by the French Transilien company on indoor
mapping of their railway stations at the last State of the Map. I
believe their is also a German company doing similar things.

There are some multi modal route planner (sorry no links) that combine
bus/bike/train routes. Something no PT provider can offer as they only
have their own data. This is also mentioned in the video [1].

m


[1] http://2016.stateofthemap.org/2016/osm-goes-indoors-2

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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marc Zoutendijk
 wrote:
> +1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is
> using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of
> public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out
> when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…

Not so long ago there was a story about a PT map for a town in a
developing country made with OSM as there is no official data
available. Some countries are spoiled by the availability of official
data.

However, the official data can be wrong. I have place several bus
stops in Belgian and sometimes you see that the official data is wrong
by several hundred meters.

m

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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Warin]

On 18-Jan-17 03:21 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marc Zoutendijk
 wrote:

+1, In addition I would note that I have never met one single person who is
using OSM to plan his public transport journeys. I’m a very heavy user of
public transport and I always use the website from the operator to find out
when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not even think of OSM…

I thought several PT companies are experimenting with OSM. See e.g.
[1] which is a presentation by the French Transilien company on indoor
mapping of their railway stations at the last State of the Map. I
believe their is also a German company doing similar things.

There are some multi modal route planner (sorry no links) that combine
bus/bike/train routes. Something no PT provider can offer as they only
have their own data. This is also mentioned in the video [1].


Never say never?

A PT provider with multi modal planer - bus, train, light rail  and ferry for 
Sydney, Australia

http://www.transportnsw.info/

{example test; from Terry Hills Pubilc School Myoora Rd, Terrey Hills to City 
Rd near Butlin Av, Camperdown}

Notes

includes at least some 'private' bus companies (I think most), so not all 
operated by the major PT provider (the government in this case).
these mostly run on an 'opal' card.
the present data in OSM is poor for Sydney bus routes

There is an opal card retailer finder on the web site .. however
I prefer an off line map (like OSM) to keep my mobile data use for things like 
weather and fire - where real time is important.

Personally I like to use both the PT providers website and a map,
sometimes where I want to go is an area, using a public transport map I can 
better asses where to go,
I then use PT provider web planer, changing the precise location to find a good 
multi mode route.
the PT web site is set up for people who want to get from A to B at a 
particular time,
I may prefer a scenic route using a ferry, a train trip across the bridge ... a 
map helps.


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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17 Jan 2017, at 11:51, Marc Zoutendijk  wrote:
> 
> I’m a very heavy user of public transport and I always use the website from 
> the operator to find out when/where/how my bus/train is going. I would not 
> even think of OSM…


unless your public transport operator has a portal that is worse than looking 
at an osm map ;-)

/anecdotal/
I recall the local portal some years ago (admit they have slightly improved in 
the mean time) recommending me to walk for 51 minutes to a distant bus stop to 
save some changes when the next stop was 2 minutes away and although that one 
required several more changes, as it was raining it was absolutely preferable).

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Lauri Kytömaa]

Warin wrote:
>Marc Gemis wrote:
>> bus/bike/train routes. Something no PT provider can offer as they only
> Never say never?
>
> A PT provider with multi modal planer - bus, train, light rail  and ferry
> for Sydney, Australia
>
> http://www.transportnsw.info/

Fwiw, we've had a country wide bus-train-airplane router for years
http://www.journey.fi/en/ although I'm not absolutely certain it has local bus
timetables for each and every small town that might have some bus lines;
just one such place is listed currently.
It has an updated version in public beta,
like this (doesn't seem to support linking to a specific UI language):

https://beta.matka.fi/reitti/Toukola,%20Helsinki::60.208836,24.972565/Levintie,%20Kittil%C3%A4::67.724127,24.854204

(If you only get one route suggestion, you get more by changing the
departure time to noonish.)

-- 
alv

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