Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 at 08:07, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 22:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Something to do with kangaroos, is my guess.
>>>
>>
>> Check 1:53 & a few seconds after! :-)
>>
>
> You seem to have forgotten to give a URL.
>

Damn!

Obviously need more coffee!

Here you go: https://vimeo.com/387880227

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 22:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Something to do with kangaroos, is my guess.
>>
>
> Check 1:53 & a few seconds after! :-)
>

You seem to have forgotten to give a URL.  No problem.  There's a timestamp,
so it's going to be youtube.  All I have to do is google for youtube,
kangaroo
and wine - there aren't going to be many videos matching that.

There are hundreds of the damned things!  What is it about wine and
kangaroos?  And which video did you mean?

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 23:33, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 23:04, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> but regardless of that, I'd like to know what an
>>
>>> Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes
>>>
>> Australian-style cafe is, & how our's differ from everywhere else?
>>
>
> Something to do with kangaroos, is my guess.
>

Check 1:53 & a few seconds after! :-)

I know it's wine, not coffee, but the same principle applies :-)

Thanks

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 23:04, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> but regardless of that, I'd like to know what an
>
>> Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes
>>
> Australian-style cafe is, & how our's differ from everywhere else?
>

Something to do with kangaroos, is my guess.

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks!

Graeme


On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 08:13, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Sorry Graeme, that should have said American style, where the waitress is
> refilling mugs from a carafe
>
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

Sorry Graeme, that should have said American style, where the waitress is 
refilling mugs from a carafe 

Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 23:04, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 19:22, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> I've got to say that personally, I don't think there's a need for a separate 
> "speciality" tag, but regardless of that, I'd like to know what an 
>> Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes
> Australian-style cafe is, & how our's differ from everywhere else?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 19:22, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

I've got to say that personally, I don't think there's a need for a
separate "speciality" tag, but regardless of that, I'd like to know what an

> Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes
>
Australian-style cafe is, & how our's differ from everywhere else?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 14:34, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:06, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > My questions are along the lines of "Is there any sort of coffee shop or
> > cafe in this village?" rather than "Does it sell really expensive
> coffee?"
>
> you might want to exclude those places from your search where a cup of
> coffee is 12€ rather than 2, not?
>

Ideally, yes.  But a village of 100 people with one cafe it is unlikely
that it
will focus exclusively on very expensive coffee.  Sure, this area is
heavily dependent on tourism and there are coffee aficionados, but
you'll be lucky to get more than instant coffee.  And if an out-of-the-way
place in a village of 100 really does sell very expensive coffee, it's
pretty likely to also sell cheap coffee for the locals.

Even in the very worst case, and it only sells very expensive coffee,
you'll drink it if you're thirsty enough.  Because if you're in a car
traveling through a rural area either it's somewhere you were passing
anyway (so costs little time to stop and check) or you went out of
your way because it was by far the nearest place and you were
desperate for a drink.

Being able to map places specializing in luxury coffee is a bit of a
luxury when there are possibly many as-yet unmapped cafes.  Not
that I'd vote against a proposal to map specialty coffee places (if
the tagging is sensible) but I do wonder about some people's
priorities.

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Johan Jönsson via Tagging]

 A reasonable simple tagging would be:amenity=café
and
cuisine=special_coffee
So you would replace the tag coffee_house with speciality_coffee
I hope that won't be too much of a nuisance as it still have the very common 
tag: café
If it is a node with an abundance of tags, I suggest using 
drink:speciality_coffee 
(and all the other nifty little tags shop, craft, brand and so forth)
/Johan Jönsson, lurker on vacation

On Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 04:00:38 PM GMT+2, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
 wrote:  

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 14:01, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> 
>> Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be searchable?
> 
> Then we need something objective.
> Maybe coffee_species or coffee_brand
> in the same way that we have breweries for restaurants.

When I arrive in a new city in a new country, I’m not familiar with the local 
brands of coffee. A cafe serving speciality coffee introduces me to them.

> If a restaurant only have beer from one brewery, then it is probably boring,
> especially if it is one of the big global companies.
> 
> If it has beers from 10+ breweries on tap then it probably cater to customers
> interested in beer and some of them will be interesting or good. Even or 
> especially
> if I do not know any of the breweries.

That’s true. 
Being able to pull up a list of cafe’s with the brands of coffee they sell and 
then searching for the roasters website should reasonably quickly tell me 
whether it’s a specialty location or not.


>> Twice as expensive as what?
> 
> €20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
> specialty.
> https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/venice-st-marks-square-cafe-prices-tourists-san-marco-a8481376.html
In my city, an espresso costs the same in a cafe in the centre and in a cafe 
outside the centre 15 minutes away with their own roastery.
> 
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 14:01, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> 
>> Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be searchable?
> 
> Then we need something objective.
> Maybe coffee_species or coffee_brand
> in the same way that we have breweries for restaurants.

When I arrive in a new city in a new country, I’m not familiar with the local 
brands of coffee. A cafe serving speciality coffee introduces me to them.

> If a restaurant only have beer from one brewery, then it is probably boring,
> especially if it is one of the big global companies.
> 
> If it has beers from 10+ breweries on tap then it probably cater to customers
> interested in beer and some of them will be interesting or good. Even or 
> especially
> if I do not know any of the breweries.

That’s true. 
Being able to pull up a list of cafe’s with the brands of coffee they sell and 
then searching for the roasters website should reasonably quickly tell me 
whether it’s a specialty location or not.


>> Twice as expensive as what?
> 
> €20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
> specialty.
> https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/venice-st-marks-square-cafe-prices-tourists-san-marco-a8481376.html
In my city, an espresso costs the same in a cafe in the centre and in a cafe 
outside the centre 15 minutes away with their own roastery.
> 
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Martin Koppenhoefer:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:04, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
>>
>> €20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
>> specialty.

I see that I made a typo. I meant "should qualify".
> 
> 
> it’s not as if a coffee in Venice costs 20€ a cup, you will get good coffee 
> for 1€ in any normal bar. It costs 20€ if you sit on San Marco’s square in a 
> posh cafe with waiters and live orchestra music. It’s the location and the 
> presentation that you pay for, not the coffee.

Yes that is what I meant.


The same here in Copenhagen. The expensive places does not have the best coffee.


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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:06, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> My questions are along the lines of "Is there any sort of coffee shop or
> cafe in this village?" rather than "Does it sell really expensive coffee?"


you might want to exclude those places from your search where a cup of coffee 
is 12€ rather than 2, not?

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 15:04, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> €20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
> specialty.


it’s not as if a coffee in Venice costs 20€ a cup, you will get good coffee for 
1€ in any normal bar. It costs 20€ if you sit on San Marco’s square in a posh 
cafe with waiters and live orchestra music. It’s the location and the 
presentation that you pay for, not the coffee.

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 14:00, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> We also do not have special tags for specialty wine or whiskey or bread.
> For food we do have start but only stars that are awarded by recognised 
> tourism boards.


we do have shop=deli
while you’re right that microbrewery is about the size, I would not neglect 
that the assumption is also decent quality.

IMHO there is room for specialty coffee in OpenStreetMap, e.g. a significant 
price difference compared to usual local coffee prices could serve for 
verification.

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 13:15, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

On 8 Jul 2020, at 13:08, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 13:00, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
>
> In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?
>>
>
> Price, maybe. Specialty coffee (or anything else) costs more.  However,
> blind tasting of wine has shown that perceived quality is strongly
> influenced by presentation (if it looks expensive, people think it
> tastes better).
>
>
> Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be
> searchable?
>

There is a group of people within OSM that have the mantra "OSM is not
a gazetteer."  I think that's overly-strict, but when we get down to
tagging speciality coffees, I can see their point.

OSM is a map.  We tag places like shops and cafes primarily
because they are waypoints: "Turn left after Walmart."
Secondarily we tag those places in more detail because it's
useful: a convenience store versus a gift shop.  When
we get down to listing every individual item sold, we've
gone far too far.

Is specialty coffee a step too far?  Yes, because it's
subjective and is likely to become (if it hasn't already)
an abused marketing term.  Anybody can take some
vile coffee beans, roast them badly, and it's speciality
coffee (it's certainly out of the normal).  It's too
subjective.  Price is verifiable.

So rather than tagging it as specialty, or of high quality, just
> tag it as expensive=yes.  At least that is verifiable.  If
> it's more than (say) twice the average price, it's expensive.
>
>
> Twice as expensive as what?
>

Did you see where I wrote "average price"?  If most places sell coffee
for $2, I'd consider $4 expensive.  Maybe you'd prefer to flag 3 standard
deviations from the mean as expensive.  Whatever formular you come
up with, it would be verifiable.

Not that I think we should be mapping price, either.  Sure, if we had
a mapper on every street corner diligently keeping everything current
(no more than a week between inspections) we could consider mapping
these sorts of details.

In the meantime, I'm putting all my time into mapping three geographically
large counties in slightly less detail, and there's still a hell of a lot
yet to map.
My questions are along the lines of "Is there any sort of coffee shop or
cafe in this village?" rather than "Does it sell really expensive coffee?"
I'd rather try to cater to those who are thirsty enough to drink
anything rather than those who would willingly die of dehydration than
drink cheap coffee.

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Jake Edmonds via Tagging:

>>
>> Price, maybe. Specialty coffee (or anything else) costs more.  However,
>> blind tasting of wine has shown that perceived quality is strongly
>> influenced by presentation (if it looks expensive, people think it
>> tastes better).
> 
> Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be searchable?

Then we need something objective.
Maybe coffee_species or coffee_brand
in the same way that we have breweries for restaurants.

If a restaurant only have beer from one brewery, then it is probably boring,
especially if it is one of the big global companies.

If it has beers from 10+ breweries on tap then it probably cater to customers
interested in beer and some of them will be interesting or good. Even or 
especially
if I do not know any of the breweries.


>> So rather than tagging it as specialty, or of high quality, just
>> tag it as expensive=yes.  At least that is verifiable.  If
>> it's more than (say) twice the average price, it's expensive.
> 
> Twice as expensive as what?

€20 espressos in Venice should quality. But I am not so sure about the 
specialty.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/venice-st-marks-square-cafe-prices-tourists-san-marco-a8481376.html

>> Or maybe we just don't bother.  That would be my preference.
>>
>> -- 
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 12:58, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
>> ‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available,
> 
> 
> microbrewery beer is not necessarily special or better. It is made on the 
> premises.

Of course, but it’s generally understood that a microbrewery will be focusing 
on quality brewing.

> Specialty coffee is just about the quality and price which is very subjective.
> 
> We also do not have special tags for specialty wine or whiskey or bread.
> For food we do have start but only stars that are awarded by recognised 
> tourism boards.
> 
> In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?

> 
>> Europe is already a major coffee market accounting for 30% of global 
>> consumption, but
>> is seeing a growth in demand for specialty coffee while overall demand 
>> remains
>> stable[16].
> 
> Yes, there are many new very good coffeeshops here in Europe. But I would not 
> know
> how to separate specialty coffee from not-specialty. Except that coffee-shops 
> that
> are not part of a chain tend to have a better selection of coffee.

Advertising which small-batch/micro roasters supply their coffee separates 
them. It’s not unusual to have multiple beans to choose from.
It’s also typical to see these establishments selling beans and home brewing 
equipment, including accessories such as scales and goose-neck kettles.


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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

> On 8 Jul 2020, at 13:08, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 13:00, Niels Elgaard Larsen  <mailto:elga...@agol.dk>> wrote:
> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> > ‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available,
> 
> Specialty coffee is just about the quality and price which is very subjective.
> 
> +1
> 
> In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?
> 
> Price, maybe. Specialty coffee (or anything else) costs more.  However,
> blind tasting of wine has shown that perceived quality is strongly
> influenced by presentation (if it looks expensive, people think it
> tastes better).

Maybe that’s true but if people are looking for it, it should be searchable?

> So rather than tagging it as specialty, or of high quality, just
> tag it as expensive=yes.  At least that is verifiable.  If
> it's more than (say) twice the average price, it's expensive.

Twice as expensive as what?

> Or maybe we just don't bother.  That would be my preference.
> 
> -- 
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> 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 13:00, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:

> Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> > ‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available,
>
> Specialty coffee is just about the quality and price which is very
> subjective.
>

+1

>
> In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?
>

Price, maybe. Specialty coffee (or anything else) costs more.  However,
blind tasting of wine has shown that perceived quality is strongly
influenced by presentation (if it looks expensive, people think it
tastes better).

So rather than tagging it as specialty, or of high quality, just
tag it as expensive=yes.  At least that is verifiable.  If
it's more than (say) twice the average price, it's expensive.

Or maybe we just don't bother.  That would be my preference.

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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jul 8, 2020, 11:20 by tagging@openstreetmap.org:

> exceptional quality coffee, both farmed and brewed to a significantly higher 
> than average standard.
> (...)
> Are suggestions? 
>

Sounds like poorly defined marketing term or something that will quickly 
degrade into it,
with Starbucks offering "specialty coffee" soon.

Is it actually verifiable in any way? Because it sounds to me that it would be 
tagging marketing
slogan used by an establishment.
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Jake Edmonds via Tagging:
> ‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available,


microbrewery beer is not necessarily special or better. It is made on the 
premises.

Specialty coffee is just about the quality and price which is very subjective.

We also do not have special tags for specialty wine or whiskey or bread.
For food we do have start but only stars that are awarded by recognised tourism 
boards.

In short, how would we deal with verifiability requirement?



> typically
> relating to the entire supply chain, using single origin or single estate
> coffee[1][2]. The term was first used in 1974 by Erna Knutsen in an issue of 
> Tea &
> Coffee Trade Journal. Knutsen used specialty coffee to describe beans of the 
> best
> flavor which are produced in special micro-climates.[3]
> 
> Specialty coffee is related to what is known as the Third Wave of Coffee[4],
> especially throughout North America. This refers to a modern demand for 
> exceptional
> quality coffee, both farmed and brewed to a significantly higher than average 
> standard.’
> 
> 'While specialty coffee in North America is rarely offered in major coffee 
> chains,
> the Third Wave of Coffee[4] has resulted in a significant increase in 
> specialty
> coffee consumption. Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes have 
> opened in
> multiple cities[13][14][12]. An SCAA report estimated the US had 29,300 
> specialty
> coffee shops in 2013, up from 2,850 in 1993[15].

This thing seems a bit US-centric to me.

> Europe is already a major coffee market accounting for 30% of global 
> consumption, but
> is seeing a growth in demand for specialty coffee while overall demand remains
> stable[16].

Yes, there are many new very good coffeeshops here in Europe. But I would not 
know
how to separate specialty coffee from not-specialty. Except that coffee-shops 
that
are not part of a chain tend to have a better selection of coffee.

> In 2016, specialty coffee was Europe’s fastest growing major restaurant
> category, with an increase of 9.1% from 2014-2015.’
> 
> From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialty_coffee
> 
> 
> amenity=cafe & cuisine=coffee_shop are used to tag establishments most known 
> for
> serving coffee. This includes large chains like Starbucks that serve a 
> variety of
> coffee based drinks made with commercially roasted beans, independent cafe’s 
> serving
> either nothing but black, American style, drip coffee and those making 
> specialty
> coffee drinks.
> 
> There are tags for the preparation method:
> 
>   * drink:filter_coffee
>   * drink:espresso
>   * drink:coffee:automatic
> 
> While consumers might have a preference for the way their drink is prepared, 
> the
> coffee source is also an important factor.
> 
> I have looked through the wiki and taginfo and the closest thing I could find 
> is one
> use cafe of diet:specialty_coffee, but I’m not sure that’s an appropriate 
> namespace.
> real_ale has 1819 uses for beer with no namespace. Are suggestions? 
> 
> Other tags:
> microroasting=yes has 64 uses, mainly on amenity=cafe, in the same way
> microbrewery=yes is used for pubs.
> 
> Existing information:
> European Coffee Trip has 1893 cafe’s serving specialty coffee in Europe.
> https://europeancoffeetrip.com/city-guides/
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jul 2020, at 11:22, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> Other tags:
> microroasting=yes has 64 uses, mainly on amenity=cafe, in the same way 
> microbrewery=yes is used for pubs.


there is also craft=coffee_roasting
1 occurrence, but seems suitable:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/craft=coffee_roasting

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[Tagging] Specialty Coffee

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

‘Specialty coffee is a term for the highest grade of coffee available, 
typically relating to the entire supply chain, using single origin or single 
estate coffee[1][2]. The term was first used in 1974 by Erna Knutsen in an 
issue of Tea & Coffee Trade Journal. Knutsen used specialty coffee to describe 
beans of the best flavor which are produced in special micro-climates.[3]

Specialty coffee is related to what is known as the Third Wave of Coffee[4], 
especially throughout North America. This refers to a modern demand for 
exceptional quality coffee, both farmed and brewed to a significantly higher 
than average standard.’

'While specialty coffee in North America is rarely offered in major coffee 
chains, the Third Wave of Coffee[4] has resulted in a significant increase in 
specialty coffee consumption. Independent, ‘Australian-style’, or artisan cafes 
have opened in multiple cities[13][14][12]. An SCAA report estimated the US had 
29,300 specialty coffee shops in 2013, up from 2,850 in 1993[15].

Europe is already a major coffee market accounting for 30% of global 
consumption, but is seeing a growth in demand for specialty coffee while 
overall demand remains stable[16]. In 2016, specialty coffee was Europe’s 
fastest growing major restaurant category, with an increase of 9.1% from 
2014-2015.’

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialty_coffee 



amenity=cafe & cuisine=coffee_shop are used to tag establishments most known 
for serving coffee. This includes large chains like Starbucks that serve a 
variety of coffee based drinks made with commercially roasted beans, 
independent cafe’s serving either nothing but black, American style, drip 
coffee and those making specialty coffee drinks.

There are tags for the preparation method:
drink:filter_coffee
drink:espresso
drink:coffee:automatic
While consumers might have a preference for the way their drink is prepared, 
the coffee source is also an important factor.

I have looked through the wiki and taginfo and the closest thing I could find 
is one use cafe of diet:specialty_coffee, but I’m not sure that’s an 
appropriate namespace. real_ale has 1819 uses for beer with no namespace. Are 
suggestions? 

Other tags:
microroasting=yes has 64 uses, mainly on amenity=cafe, in the same way 
microbrewery=yes is used for pubs.

Existing information:
European Coffee Trip has 1893 cafe’s serving specialty coffee in Europe.
https://europeancoffeetrip.com/city-guides/


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