[Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

Hi,

Reading the wiki on key:amenity=waste_disposal 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_disposal


says .. it is not for 'watery waste disposal' .. yet the key:waste says 
it is for 'watery waste disposal'


It needs a rewrite into a sensible thing! That is consistent! And does 
not reference old history but simply states what it it for and how to 
use it...


Any objections to a rewrite .. you can if you wish leave it to me .. 
(with possible speeelin errors and auto corrections) ?
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Dave Swarthout]

The problem is that "waste" as currently defined in the wiki refers to
things you want to dispose of that would come out of a home or office,
things like table scraps, cans and bottles, paper, discarded packaging
materials. My term for this is trash or garbage. These days much of that is
recycled, especially in certain environmentally aware communities, but
that's far from being the general case. As usual, there are differing
definitions for these terms depending on where you live and what you are
accustomed to.

If you rewrite the wiki definition of amenity=waste_disposal to include
sewage I think you'll invite a lot of extra discussion and run into a dead
end with your proposal. Using it with a subkey like waste=sewage might be a
better approach but then there needs to be a bunch of other waste=* subkeys
for recyclable items, paper items, etc.

On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi,
>
> Reading the wiki on key:amenity=waste_disposal
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_disposal
>
> says .. it is not for 'watery waste disposal' .. yet the key:waste says it
> is for 'watery waste disposal'
>
> It needs a rewrite into a sensible thing! That is consistent!   And does
> not reference old history but simply states what it it for and how to use
> it...
>
> Any objections to a rewrite .. you can if you wish leave it to me .. (with
> possible speeelin errors and auto corrections) ?
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

The key:amenity=waste_disposal has a sub key 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waste where some of the things 
you mention as stated. These presently are;


 * *waste*=trash
   

   - (for trash/rubbish)
 * *waste*=excrement
   

   - (for /excrement evacuation systems/ for boats)
 * *waste*=oil
   

   - (for motoroil, diesel and emulsions)
 * *waste*=chemical_toilet
   

   - (for chemical toilets)
 * *waste*=grey_water
   

   - (for soapy water, like from showers and dish washing)
 * *waste*=drugs
   

   - to subtag a special container for the collection of
   pharmaceuticals / medicine / drugs
 * *waste*=organic
   


 * *waste*=plastic
   


 * *waste*=rubble
   


 * *waste*=scrap_metal
   




The key:waste=excrement already exists as a sub tag under 
amenity=waste_disposal but the main page is not consistent with that ..


Either the main page is wrong to exclude excrement OR the waste page is 
wrong to include it. Take your pick.I vote for excrement on the main 
wiki page, not for its exclusion.


The main page also mentions "A place where canal boaters, caravaners 
etc. can dispose of rubbish (trash/waste)."  better expressed as "A 
place where people can dispose of waste."?There are a few of these kind 
of statements that are tending to exclude things .. when there is no 
alternative and where the key:waste= includes them.



--Recycling?
I'd think bins dedicated to recycling would be better tagged using the 
existing amenity=recycling 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Drecycling .






On 3/02/2015 11:36 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
The problem is that "waste" as currently defined in the wiki refers to 
things you want to dispose of that would come out of a home or office, 
things like table scraps, cans and bottles, paper, discarded packaging 
materials. My term for this is trash or garbage. These days much of 
that is recycled, especially in certain environmentally aware 
communities, but that's far from being the general case. As usual, 
there are differing definitions for these terms depending on where you 
live and what you are accustomed to.


If you rewrite the wiki definition of amenity=waste_disposal to 
include sewage I think you'll invite a lot of extra discussion and run 
into a dead end with your proposal. Using it with a subkey like 
waste=sewage might be a better approach but then there needs to be a 
bunch of other waste=* subkeys for recyclable items, paper items, etc.


On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


Hi,

Reading the wiki on key:amenity=waste_disposal
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_disposal

says .. it is not for 'watery waste disposal' .. yet the key:waste
says it is for 'watery waste disposal'

It needs a rewrite into a sensible thing! That is consistent!  
And does not reference old history but simply states what it it

for and how to use it...

Any objections to a rewrite .. you can if you wish leave it to me
.. (with possible speeelin errors and auto corrections) ?

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--
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com


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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[David Bannon]

Good move Warin. At present, this key seems a bit light on for
documentation, no history and little info for any of it children.

Is it an 'approved' key ?  Little use.

In the context where this discussion came up, camp_sites, I'd suggest
waste=chemical_toilet is the one we are interested in. The
waste=excrement mentions boat. Boat facilities are distinctly different,
usually relying on a large hose connecting the two tanks and a pump.

Chemical_toilets (in my experience) are a concrete 'bowl' about half a
square metre where the material in question is either poured or pumped.

Should we start by improving the documentation there ?

David 

On Tue, 2015-02-03 at 12:05 +1100, Warin wrote:
> The key:amenity=waste_disposal has a sub key
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waste  where some of the things
> you mention as stated. These presently are;
> 
>   * waste=trash - (for trash/rubbish) 
>   * waste=excrement - (for excrement evacuation systems for
> boats) 
>   * waste=oil - (for motoroil, diesel and emulsions) 
>   * waste=chemical_toilet - (for chemical toilets) 
>   * waste=grey_water - (for soapy water, like from showers and
> dish washing) 
>   * waste=drugs - to subtag a special container for the collection
> of pharmaceuticals / medicine / drugs 
>   * waste=organic 
>   * waste=plastic 
>   * waste=rubble 
>   * waste=scrap_metal 
> 
> The key:waste=excrement already exists as a sub tag under
> amenity=waste_disposal but the main page is not consistent with
> that .. 
> 
> Either the main page is wrong to exclude excrement OR the waste page
> is wrong to include it. Take your pick. I vote for excrement on the
> main wiki page, not for its exclusion. 
> 
> The main page also mentions "A place where canal boaters, caravaners
> etc. can dispose of rubbish (trash/waste)."  better expressed as "A
> place where people can dispose of waste."? There are a few of these
> kind of statements that are tending to exclude things .. when there is
> no alternative and where the key:waste= includes them. 
> 
> 
> -- Recycling? 
> I'd think bins dedicated to recycling would be better tagged using the
> existing amenity=recycling
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Drecycling . 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/02/2015 11:36 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> 
> > The problem is that "waste" as currently defined in the wiki refers
> > to things you want to dispose of that would come out of a home or
> > office, things like table scraps, cans and bottles, paper, discarded
> > packaging materials. My term for this is trash or garbage. These
> > days much of that is recycled, especially in certain environmentally
> > aware communities, but that's far from being the general case. As
> > usual, there are differing definitions for these terms depending on
> > where you live and what you are accustomed to.
> > 
> > If you rewrite the wiki definition of amenity=waste_disposal to
> > include sewage I think you'll invite a lot of extra discussion and
> > run into a dead end with your proposal. Using it with a subkey like
> > waste=sewage might be a better approach but then there needs to be a
> > bunch of other waste=* subkeys for recyclable items, paper items,
> > etc.
> > 
> > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Reading the wiki on key:amenity=waste_disposal
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%
> > 3Dwaste_disposal
> > 
> > says .. it is not for 'watery waste disposal' .. yet the
> > key:waste says it is for 'watery waste disposal'
> > 
> > It needs a rewrite into a sensible thing! That is
> > consistent!   And does not reference old history but simply
> > states what it it for and how to use it...
> > 
> > Any objections to a rewrite .. you can if you wish leave it
> > to me .. (with possible speeelin errors and auto
> > corrections) ? 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Dave Swarthout
> > Homer, Alaska
> > Chiang Mai, Thailand
> > Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 
> ___
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> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

Done .. well at least a first attempt.

Ok.. I've hacked at the words, added some tag links and given examples 
of the waste= key on the main page just so people can see it includes 
some things they have not thought of?


I hope it is better , more inclusive - less exclusive.

Complaints, suggestions .. as always to me .. via the list or otherwise. 
We'll see if it attracts more tagging.



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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 3/02/2015 5:03 PM, David Bannon wrote:


In the context where this discussion came up, camp_sites, I'd suggest
waste=chemical_toilet is the one we are interested in. The
waste=excrement mentions boat. Boat facilities are distinctly different,
usually relying on a large hose connecting the two tanks and a pump.

Chemical_toilets (in my experience) are a concrete 'bowl' about half a
square metre where the material in question is either poured or pumped.

Should we start by improving the documentation there ?

David




There is no documentation of the waste= values .. if you want to add 
them go ahead. Anything there would be an improvement.


I check on the UK terms for chemical toilets .. 
http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/campingequipment/toilets/


They use "On a campsite this will probably be marked as a Chemical 
Disposal Point or CDP. On some sites, it might appear as an Elsan 
Point." Elsan sounds like a trade name or manufacture. So I'd include CDP.


Oh .. note their use of campsite too. Not camp ground. Lots of power in 
words.
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[John F. Eldredge]

On February 3, 2015 3:45:48 PM CST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/02/2015 5:03 PM, David Bannon wrote:
> >
> > In the context where this discussion came up, camp_sites, I'd
> suggest
> > waste=chemical_toilet is the one we are interested in. The
> > waste=excrement mentions boat. Boat facilities are distinctly
> different,
> > usually relying on a large hose connecting the two tanks and a pump.
> >
> > Chemical_toilets (in my experience) are a concrete 'bowl' about half
> a
> > square metre where the material in question is either poured or
> pumped.
> >
> > Should we start by improving the documentation there ?
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> 
> There is no documentation of the waste= values .. if you want to add 
> them go ahead. Anything there would be an improvement.
> 
> I check on the UK terms for chemical toilets .. 
> http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/campingequipment/toilets/
> 
> They use "On a campsite this will probably be marked as a Chemical 
> Disposal Point or CDP. On some sites, it might appear as an Elsan 
> Point." Elsan sounds like a trade name or manufacture. So I'd include
> CDP.
> 
> Oh .. note their use of campsite too. Not camp ground. Lots of power
> in 
> words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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I think "dump station" is probably intended to refer to facilities intended to 
receive the sewage from chemical toilets on board recreational vehicles, and 
from man-portable chemical toilets (basically a bucket with a seat and a 
tight-fitting lid). These concrete chemical toilets you describe would be a 
facility of the campground, and a "honey truck" would come to them, rather than 
the toilets being transported to a dump station.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive 
out hate: only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 4/02/2015 9:38 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
I think "dump station" is probably intended to refer to facilities 
intended to receive the sewage from chemical toilets on board 
recreational vehicles, and from man-portable chemical toilets 
(basically a bucket with a seat and a tight-fitting lid). These 
concrete chemical toilets you describe would be a facility of the 
campground, and a "honey truck" would come to them, rather than the 
toilets being transported to a dump station.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com



https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dump_Station

Status = abandoned! No one is using it. But I agree it was intended for 
this use.


--
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_disposal

Status - In use. And it has the capability of being used for the same 
intended use of 'Dump_Station'


Going with the voters/mappers you'd have to agree 'waste_disposal wins?

-
Complication: waste_disposal rendering will have to be left upto the sub 
key 'waste=' to get the information across.





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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 4/02/2015 9:38 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:


There is no documentation of the waste= values .. if you want to
add them go ahead. Anything there would be an improvement.

I check on the UK terms for chemical toilets ..

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/campingequipment/toilets/

They use "On a campsite this will probably be marked as a Chemical
Disposal Point or CDP. On some sites, it might appear as an Elsan
Point." Elsan sounds like a trade name or manufacture. So I'd
include CDP.

Oh .. note their use of campsite too. Not camp ground. Lots of
power in words. 



More? http://www.motorhomeandaway.com/eu_basics.htm For 
caravans/motorhomes/RVs


Has AIRES, STELLPLATZ and AREE DI SOSTA (France, Germany and Italy) ..

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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Dave Swarthout]

I have never seen the term "chemical disposal point" and if I did I would
assume it referred to either household chemicals like bleach, or cleaning
aids, or to industrial chemicals, like solvents, cleaning fluids, paint and
the like. I would drive right on past if I were driving an RN with full
holding tank.

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  On 4/02/2015 9:38 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
>
>
>  There is no documentation of the waste= values .. if you want to add them
>> go ahead. Anything there would be an improvement.
>>
>> I check on the UK terms for chemical toilets ..
>> http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/campingequipment/toilets/
>>
>> They use "On a campsite this will probably be marked as a Chemical
>> Disposal Point or CDP. On some sites, it might appear as an Elsan Point."
>> Elsan sounds like a trade name or manufacture. So I'd include CDP.
>>
>> Oh .. note their use of campsite too. Not camp ground. Lots of power in
>> words.
>
>
> More? http://www.motorhomeandaway.com/eu_basics.htm For
> caravans/motorhomes/RVs
>
> Has AIRES, STELLPLATZ and AREE DI SOSTA (France, Germany and Italy) ..
>
>
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>
>


-- 
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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 4/02/2015 11:14 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote:

I have never seen the term "chemical disposal point"


Neither have I. Nor aires, stellplatz nor aree di sosta .. but then I 
don't drive an RV nor caravan. So I've not been looking for them. I'm 
only sharing what I've found.




On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 4/02/2015 9:38 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:


There is no documentation of the waste= values .. if you want
to add them go ahead. Anything there would be an improvement.

I check on the UK terms for chemical toilets ..

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/campingequipment/toilets/

They use "On a campsite this will probably be marked as a
Chemical Disposal Point or CDP. On some sites, it might
appear as an Elsan Point." Elsan sounds like a trade name or
manufacture. So I'd include CDP.

Oh .. note their use of campsite too. Not camp ground. Lots
of power in words. 



More? http://www.motorhomeandaway.com/eu_basics.htm For
caravans/motorhomes/RVs

Has AIRES, STELLPLATZ and AREE DI SOSTA (France, Germany and
Italy) ..


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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com



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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[David Bannon]

>> I have never seen the term "chemical disposal point" 

No, new term to me too. Must be a UK thing. In Aust, "dump point" rules
and I am a caravanner. 

We'll need a list of terms that people might search for, little point in
debating it, clearly everyone will have their own favourite but
"chemical_toilet" meaning is pretty obvious.

Similarly, I'd rather "camp_ground" refer to the wider complex and
"camp_site" mean where on person/family/group camp but its too late,
move on. Its camp_site and pitch respectively. Lets do it.

Doing some reading of published list of dump points in Aust, I note that
some are listed as suitable only for "cassette" model and not the larger
holding tank. Minority but some. I also note that some are listed as
unsuitable for "larger vehicles" - are these issues we should be
including in the re-write ? Important enough to make it to a widely
regarded publication.

David 

On Wed, 2015-02-04 at 12:44 +1100, Warin wrote:
> On 4/02/2015 11:14 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> > I have never seen the term "chemical disposal point" 

> Neither have I. Nor aires, stellplatz nor aree di sosta .. but then I
> don't drive an RV nor caravan. So I've not been looking for them. I'm
> only sharing what I've found.

> > > I check on the UK terms for chemical toilets ..
> > > 
> > http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/campingequipment/toilets/
> > > 
> > > They use "On a campsite this will probably be
> > > marked as a Chemical Disposal Point or CDP. On
> > > some sites, it might appear as an Elsan Point."
> > > Elsan sounds like a trade name or manufacture. So
> > > I'd include CDP. 
> > > 
> > > Oh .. note their use of campsite too. Not camp
> > > ground. Lots of power in words. 
> > 
> > More? http://www.motorhomeandaway.com/eu_basics.htm For
> > caravans/motorhomes/RVs 
> > 
> > Has AIRES, STELLPLATZ and AREE DI SOSTA (France, Germany and
> > Italy) .. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Dave Swarthout
> > Homer, Alaska
> > Chiang Mai, Thailand
> > Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
> > 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Dave Swarthout]

Well, dump_point might be a workable compromise and it plays well with the
key water_point that describes a place where one can get potable water in
larger quantities than you might get at a water tap.

Agree on your campground vs camp_site conclusion. It's too late to change
it now.

I don't have a stake in how this ends up, as long as it's workable it will
be a vast improvement over what we have now.

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 9:49 AM, David Bannon 
wrote:

> >> I have never seen the term "chemical disposal point"
>
> No, new term to me too. Must be a UK thing. In Aust, "dump point" rules
> and I am a caravanner.
>
> We'll need a list of terms that people might search for, little point in
> debating it, clearly everyone will have their own favourite but
> "chemical_toilet" meaning is pretty obvious.
>
> Similarly, I'd rather "camp_ground" refer to the wider complex and
> "camp_site" mean where on person/family/group camp but its too late,
> move on. Its camp_site and pitch respectively. Lets do it.
>
> Doing some reading of published list of dump points in Aust, I note that
> some are listed as suitable only for "cassette" model and not the larger
> holding tank. Minority but some. I also note that some are listed as
> unsuitable for "larger vehicles" - are these issues we should be
> including in the re-write ? Important enough to make it to a widely
> regarded publication.
>
> David
>
> On Wed, 2015-02-04 at 12:44 +1100, Warin wrote:
> > On 4/02/2015 11:14 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> > > I have never seen the term "chemical disposal point"
>
> > Neither have I. Nor aires, stellplatz nor aree di sosta .. but then I
> > don't drive an RV nor caravan. So I've not been looking for them. I'm
> > only sharing what I've found.
>
> > > > I check on the UK terms for chemical toilets ..
> > > >
> http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/gettingstarted/campingequipment/toilets/
> > > >
> > > > They use "On a campsite this will probably be
> > > > marked as a Chemical Disposal Point or CDP. On
> > > > some sites, it might appear as an Elsan Point."
> > > > Elsan sounds like a trade name or manufacture. So
> > > > I'd include CDP.
> > > >
> > > > Oh .. note their use of campsite too. Not camp
> > > > ground. Lots of power in words.
> > >
> > > More? http://www.motorhomeandaway.com/eu_basics.htm For
> > > caravans/motorhomes/RVs
> > >
> > > Has AIRES, STELLPLATZ and AREE DI SOSTA (France, Germany and
> > > Italy) ..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Tagging mailing list
> > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dave Swarthout
> > > Homer, Alaska
> > > Chiang Mai, Thailand
> > > Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
> > >
> >
> > ___
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[David Bannon]

On Wed, 2015-02-04 at 12:58 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> Well, dump_point might be a workable compromise and it plays well with

Dave, are we still looking for a name for a new tag when it seems we can
work with whats already there ?

tourism=camp_site
amenity=waste_disposal
waste=chemical_toilet

I agree its wordier than it need be but those tags exist and we don't
need to go through an approval process. 

David




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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 4/02/2015 8:59 PM, David Bannon wrote:

On Wed, 2015-02-04 at 12:58 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:

Well, dump_point might be a workable compromise and it plays well with

Dave, are we still looking for a name for a new tag when it seems we can
work with whats already there ?

tourism=camp_site
amenity=waste_disposal
waste=chemical_toilet

I agree its wordier than it need be but those tags exist and we don't
need to go through an approval process.

David






amenity=waste_disposal   does not need to be associated with campsite, 
it can be .. but can stand alone.


The 'amenity=waste_disposal does not look to have been through an 
aproval process ... nor does any tag. The 'approval process' is 
voluntary .. I like to use it as it gets more views other than mine and 
hopefully gets a better concesus and results in a better tag.


According to tag info the following tags are in use for waste=


trash 

4 382
83.82%

-

household 

128
2.45%

-

excrement 

101
1.93%

-

dog_excrement 

96
1.84%

-

chemical_toilet 



86
1.64%

-

dog 

63
1.21%

-

grey_water 

57
1.09%

-

litter 

42
0.80%

-

recycling 

31
0.59%

-

excrements 

30
0.57%

-

glas;paper;packaging;trash 



26
0.50%

-

cigarettes 



None of them are documented - therefore they are not defined within OSM.
Any other tag is unused and could be changed if you think that would of 
benefit.


So you/'we'/OSM are not stuck with waste=chemical_toilet  at least 
at the moment.


Do note that waste= is used under amenity=waste_basket as well as 
amenity=waste_disposal.







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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[David Bannon]

On Thu, 2015-02-05 at 08:23 +1100, Warin wrote:

> The 'amenity=waste_disposal does not look to have been through an
> aproval process ... nor does any tag. The 'approval process' is
> voluntary .. 

Not sure I agree there !  There is an approval process, if a key/tag
gets the votes OR its agreed thats its widely used, then its "officially
approved".

Complying with the standard so established is voluntary. I guess thats
what you meant.

But thats probably not important, lets concentrate on camp_site.  Are
you suggesting we should throw out whats there now and define some
better terms ?  As you point out, existing ones may not be 'official'
and are not really a very good syntax. 

I'd personally like to make it a bit tidier but like Dave S, I'll go
with  the flow, as long as there is a flow !

For example, dump_point or dump_station is vastly preferable IMHO to a
[amenity=waste_disposal; waste=chemical_toilet] combination. 

I  think pitch v. campsite v. campground is lost, there are 56K uses of
campsite. If I had time, I see how many are in the UK ! Interestingly,
the tags we are discussing are not mentioned in camp_site
combinations.

Incidentally, they use "pitch" as in "pitch a tent", I didn't get that.

Personally, I'd only put a new tag on the wiki in a proposal page. If we
agree, here, on things that work, I'd go that way.

David


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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 5/02/2015 9:02 AM, David Bannon wrote:

On Thu, 2015-02-05 at 08:23 +1100, Warin wrote:


The 'amenity=waste_disposal does not look to have been through an
aproval process ... nor does any tag. The 'approval process' is
voluntary ..

Not sure I agree there !  There is an approval process, if a key/tag
gets the votes OR its agreed thats its widely used, then its "officially
approved".

Complying with the standard so established is voluntary. I guess thats
what you meant.

Yes.. sort of. But not that important.

But thats probably not important, lets concentrate on camp_site.


Err No. This is about 'amenity=waste_disposal ... it came out of the 
discussion on campsite.. but amenity=waste_disposal is not limited to 
campsites. Need may 'hats' around here.

Are
you suggesting we should throw out whats there now and define some
better terms ?  As you point out, existing ones may not be 'official'
and are not really a very good syntax.


I'd not throw out the ones in use. Well most of them .. the possible 
confusion between waste=dog and waste=dog_excrement is evident and it 
probably comes about by the present non existent documentation.


I'd personally like to make it a bit tidier but like Dave S, I'll go
with  the flow, as long as there is a flow !


Yep. I too would like to make it tidier .. but 'we' are being lead by 
those not documenting what they are tagging, and possibly those not 
talking about 'their' additions.


For example, dump_point or dump_station is vastly preferable IMHO to a
[amenity=waste_disposal; waste=chemical_toilet] combination.


Only one person voted on dump_point .. one. If you want to pursue that 
then go ahead .. but I think people want things gathered together under 
a primary tag then sub tags for the details. Unfortunately in this case 
I too think it is wrong - for the following reason - the rendering of 
the feature should depend on the sub tag .. as that tells us what is there.


I  think pitch v. campsite v. campground is lost, there are 56K uses of
campsite. If I had time, I see how many are in the UK ! Interestingly,
the tags we are discussing are not mentioned in camp_site
combinations.
Incidentally, they use "pitch" as in "pitch a tent", I didn't get that.

Personally, I'd only put a new tag on the wiki in a proposal page. If we
agree, here, on things that work, I'd go that way.


 I think that is best. And may obtain future tag names being more 
appropriate .. past examples ? campsite-campground? trash-rubbish?


---
Additional thing .. distinguishing between amenity=waste_disposal and 
amenity=waste_basket?
Might be best done on volume of the receptacle ? Say 0.5 m^3 (half a 
cubic meter) as the change over point between the two? But make it a 
'general guide' .. not a hard rule!


Thus a waste_basket is less then 0.5 m^3, and a waste_disposal is 0.5 
m^3 or more .. but includes all liquid waste disposal?


-
One thing I have deleted from waste_disposal was a comment that liquid 
waste should have a different tag .. but that was inconsistent with the 
linked waste= tag...
So do you wast to generate a liquid waste tag ? If so what name should 
it have ?


I'm not fixed in either way ,... but would like to have it done sooner 
rather than later when other tags will be in use!
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[David Bannon]

On Thu, 2015-02-05 at 10:02 +1100, Warin wrote:
...some sensible stuff

Warin, I need to head out now and will look at rest of you questions
later. But one question, how about a 'flatter' approach ?

amenity=dump_point  (or dump_station ...)
amenity=dog
amenity=trash_bin

drop the intermediate step involving waste=  I don't like the two stage
approach, know Dave S does not either.

I know there are a lot of amenity tags but there are a lot of amenities
in this world.

David
> 
> ---
> Additional thing .. distinguishing between amenity=waste_disposal and
> amenity=waste_basket? 
> Might be best done on volume of the receptacle ? Say 0.5 m^3 (half a
> cubic meter) as the change over point between the two? But make it a
> 'general guide' .. not a hard rule! 
> 
> Thus a waste_basket is less then 0.5 m^3, and a waste_disposal is 0.5
> m^3 or more .. but includes all liquid waste disposal? 
> 
> -
> One thing I have deleted from waste_disposal was a comment that liquid
> waste should have a different tag .. but that was inconsistent with
> the linked waste= tag... 
> So do you wast to generate a liquid waste tag ? If so what name should
> it have ? 
> 
> I'm not fixed in either way ,... but would like to have it done sooner
> rather than later when other tags will be in use!
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 5/02/2015 10:31 AM, David Bannon wrote:

On Thu, 2015-02-05 at 10:02 +1100, Warin wrote:
...some sensible stuff

Warin, I need to head out now and will look at rest of you questions
later. But one question, how about a 'flatter' approach ?

amenity=dump_point  (or dump_station ...)
amenity=dog
amenity=trash_bin

drop the intermediate step involving waste=  I don't like the two stage
approach, know Dave S does not either.


You mean a one step? Like highway= x ?

To do that I'd think a new supper key   waste=   at the top level! And 
maybe that is what it needs! If there are enough different kinds then 
why not?

waste=rubbish_bin
waste=skip_bin
waste=dump_point
waste=chemical_toilet
waste=dog_excrement
waste=sharps
waste=cigarettes
waste=excrement

What does it take to justify a top level tag?


I know there are a lot of amenity tags but there are a lot of amenities
in this world.

David

Yes.. well presently thinking about amenity=reception .. from 
campsite=reception .. lots more ';reception' other than campsites ... 
multi building offices and industrial complexes and motels .. may as 
well have one tag to cover them all.
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Dave Swarthout]

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:10 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You mean a one step? Like highway= x ?
>
> To do that I'd think a new supper key   waste=   at the top level! And
> maybe that is what it needs! If there are enough different kinds then why
> not?
> waste=rubbish_bin
> waste=skip_bin
> waste=dump_point
> waste=chemical_toilet
> waste=dog_excrement
> waste=sharps
> waste=cigarettes
> waste=excrement
>
> What does it take to justify a top level tag?


I think he means that if we use a top level amenity tag like
amenity=waste_disposal we are forced to make another whole set of sub keys
to describe the waste being disposed of. At least that's where my criticism
comes from. If however we can agree on a tag of amenity=dump_point and
define it as "a facility where one can dump or discharge the waste tanks of
an RV or recreational boat" it can be understood and rendered by evaluating
only that single tag.

Whether the waste being dumped is from a "chemical toilet" or from a
plastic bag on a "porta-potty" or "cassette"  then becomes irrelevant. The
facility will handle it.

This new top level tag might make the approval process easier too. Standing
alone as it would, it nicely separates garbage and trash, or recyclables,
from sewage and doesn't require any other potentially lengthy approvals for
new subkeys.

-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 5/02/2015 12:04 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:10 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


You mean a one step? Like highway= x ?

To do that I'd think a new supper key   waste=   at the top level!
And maybe that is what it needs! If there are enough different
kinds then why not?
waste=rubbish_bin
waste=skip_bin
waste=dump_point
waste=chemical_toilet
waste=dog_excrement
waste=sharps
waste=cigarettes
waste=excrement

What does it take to justify a top level tag? 



I think he means that if we use a top level amenity tag like 
amenity=waste_disposal we are forced to make another whole set of sub 
keys to describe the waste being disposed of. At least that's where my 
criticism comes from. If however we can agree on a tag of 
amenity=dump_point and define it as "a facility where one can dump or 
discharge the waste tanks of an RV or recreational boat" it can be 
understood and rendered by evaluating only that single tag.


Whether the waste being dumped is from a "chemical toilet" or from a 
plastic bag on a "porta-potty" or "cassette"  then becomes irrelevant. 
The facility will handle it.


This new top level tag might make the approval process easier too. 
Standing alone as it would, it nicely separates garbage and trash, or 
recyclables, from sewage and doesn't require any other potentially 
lengthy approvals for new subkeys.
The present sub tag already exists and is in use .. for oil, cigarettes, 
grey_water, drugs, dog_excrement, etc .. so they still have to be 
evaluated for a true render of the facility. If what is required is a 
one tag entry for each waste type then amenity= will be over loaded eg


amenity=waste_dog_excrement
amenity=waste_cigarettes
amenity=waste_sharps

Note the inclusion of waste in the name .. so people don't think that 
they are places that sell the stuff! :)


about 8 + around 28! if you include waste recycling...
 and I think it then needs to be a top level tag .. like shop=, 
tourism=. sport= etc. as there are too many of them .. and that would be 
opposed as it is a lot of work to change the present data and a lot of 
work to change the renders... at least another category of amenity ... 
presently


 * 2.1 Sustenance
   
 * 2.2 Education 
 * 2.3 Transportation
   
 * 2.4 Financial 
 * 2.5 Healthcare
   
 * 2.6 Entertainment, Arts & Culture
   

 * 2.7 Others 

Add  '2.8 Waste'?  I don't know.. just pointing out the possible future 
problems?





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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[David Bannon]

On Fri, 2015-02-06 at 19:31 +1100, Warin wrote:

 reasoned arg against (eg) amenity=waste_dog_excrement

Yes, Warin, you are probably right, while a more sensible syntax, it
will be resisted as too big a change.

An alternative might be to declare that (eg) waste=waste_dog_excrement
is on a par with amenity=, so waste= can be used without
amenity=waste_disposal. In other words, bumping waste= up to a higher
lever key.

While a big change in principle, its technically trivial, existing tags
in the database will still be valid, no changes needed, just in future,
taggers can leave out the redundant amenity=waste_disposal

The problem there is treating waste= as a high level tag. Considering
just how big an issue waste disposal is to humanity, I cannot help but
think its justified.

But won't be surprised if there are dissenters

David



> On 5/02/2015 12:04 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:10 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You mean a one step? Like highway= x ?
> > 
> > To do that I'd think a new supper key   waste=   at the top
> > level! And maybe that is what it needs! If there are enough
> > different kinds then why not? 
> > waste=rubbish_bin
> > waste=skip_bin
> > waste=dump_point
> > waste=chemical_toilet
> > waste=dog_excrement
> > waste=sharps
> > waste=cigarettes
> > waste=excrement
> > 
> > What does it take to justify a top level tag? 
> > 
> > I think he means that if we use a top level amenity tag like
> > amenity=waste_disposal we are forced to make another whole set of
> > sub keys to describe the waste being disposed of. At least that's
> > where my criticism comes from. If however we can agree on a tag of
> > amenity=dump_point and define it as "a facility where one can dump
> > or discharge the waste tanks of an RV or recreational boat" it can
> > be understood and rendered by evaluating only that single tag.
> > 
> > Whether the waste being dumped is from a "chemical toilet" or from a
> > plastic bag on a "porta-potty" or "cassette"  then becomes
> > irrelevant. The facility will handle it.
> > 
> > 
> > This new top level tag might make the approval process easier too.
> > Standing alone as it would, it nicely separates garbage and trash,
> > or recyclables, from sewage and doesn't require any other
> > potentially lengthy approvals for new subkeys.
> > 
> The present sub tag already exists and is in use .. for oil,
> cigarettes, grey_water, drugs, dog_excrement, etc .. so they still
> have to be evaluated for a true render of the facility. If what is
> required is a one tag entry for each waste type then amenity= will be
> over loaded eg
> 
> amenity=waste_dog_excrement 
> amenity=waste_cigarettes
> amenity=waste_sharps
> 
> Note the inclusion of waste in the name .. so people don't think that
> they are places that sell the stuff! :) 
> 
> about 8 + around 28! if you include waste recycling... 
>  and I think it then needs to be a top level tag .. like shop=,
> tourism=. sport= etc. as there are too many of them .. and that would
> be opposed as it is a lot of work to change the present data and a lot
> of work to change the renders... at least another category of
> amenity ... presently
>   * 2.1 Sustenance
>   * 2.2 Education
>   * 2.3 Transportation
>   * 2.4 Financial
>   * 2.5 Healthcare
>   * 2.6 Entertainment, Arts & Culture
>   * 2.7 Others
> 
> Add  '2.8 Waste'?  I don't know.. just pointing out the possible
> future problems? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 5/02/2015 12:04 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:10 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


You mean a one step? Like highway= x ?

To do that I'd think a new supper key   waste=   at the top level!
And maybe that is what it needs! If there are enough different
kinds then why not?
waste=rubbish_bin
waste=skip_bin
waste=dump_point
waste=chemical_toilet
waste=dog_excrement
waste=sharps
waste=cigarettes
waste=excrement


This new top level tag might make the approval process easier too. 
Standing alone as it would, it nicely separates garbage and trash, or 
recyclables, from sewage and doesn't require any other potentially 
lengthy approvals for new subkeys.


--
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com



Well we'll never know unless 'we' ask the question .. and it will never 
be 'proved' unless it is voted on .. so I'm working on a 'rubbish 
proposal' !! :-P


Draft ... https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rubbish

The 'lengthy approval process' .. can be 2 weeks - comments .. 2 weeks 
voting, Thus a month ...  if its gets good support.
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Dave Swarthout]

Actually, I was not referring to a new top level tag of waste=* but to
amenity=dump_point. I quoted from the previous post but that was very
misleading.

I wanted to avoid the proliferation of waste types that must be associated
with a new tag of waste=*

By more carefully defining only one tag, (dump_point, dump_station), a tag
that's already is use, we could simply stop there. If, OTH, we create a
totally new tag of amenity=waste we're faced with getting all the follow on
tags approved. Fir example, waste=sharps? I think I know what that is, but
do we really need this fine granularity? Do we really want to have a long
discussion about that tag?

It's no biggie to me either way but simple is always better IMO.

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:57 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  On 5/02/2015 12:04 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:10 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You mean a one step? Like highway= x ?
>>
>> To do that I'd think a new supper key   waste=   at the top level! And
>> maybe that is what it needs! If there are enough different kinds then why
>> not?
>> waste=rubbish_bin
>> waste=skip_bin
>> waste=dump_point
>> waste=chemical_toilet
>> waste=dog_excrement
>> waste=sharps
>> waste=cigarettes
>> waste=excrement
>>
>>
>  This new top level tag might make the approval process easier too.
> Standing alone as it would, it nicely separates garbage and trash, or
> recyclables, from sewage and doesn't require any other potentially lengthy
> approvals for new subkeys.
>
>  --
>  Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>
>
> Well we'll never know unless 'we' ask the question .. and it will never be
> 'proved' unless it is voted on .. so I'm working on a 'rubbish proposal' !! 
> :-P
>
>
> Draft ... https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rubbish
>
> The 'lengthy approval process' .. can be 2 weeks - comments .. 2 weeks
> voting, Thus a month ...  if its gets good support.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Wiki on amenity=waste_disposal Rewrite?

[Warin]

On 8/02/2015 1:18 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
Actually, I was not referring to a new top level tag of waste=* but to 
amenity=dump_point. I quoted from the previous post but that was very 
misleading.


I wanted to avoid the proliferation of waste types that must be 
associated with a new tag of waste=*


By more carefully defining only one tag, (dump_point, dump_station), a 
tag that's already is use,


dump_point - does not exist on the OSM wiki - so undocumented.


dump_station - abandoned .. not in use in OSM? 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dump_Station


I looked on taginfo  for point ... 11  pages
found amongst others of less interest here
watsan:pee_*point* 
 - 
undocumented.. 22 instances possibly a pissoir?


only ONE dump_point in use.. in north west Tasmania .. hardly a well 
used key?

No dump_stations.

we could simply stop there. If, OTH, we create a totally new tag of 
amenity=waste we're faced with getting all the follow on tags 
approved. Fir example, waste=sharps? I think I know what that is, but 
do we really need this fine granularity? Do we really want to have a 
long discussion about that tag?


It's no biggie to me either way but simple is always better IMO.



The dump_point/station may solve one issue ..what about the rest? 
Putting band aids on all over the place does not appeal .. rather go for 
a good solution for all the problems?


But if we don't ask why not a higher level tag then 'we'll' never know. 
So.. ask? It would make things clearer and separate it out from the 
past. 'Sharps' comes out of what has already been listed on the various 
wiki pages .. I'm simply putting them here to cover the stuff already 
mentioned in the past. As for facing 'us' the replacement .. well it is 
an OSM problem .. not yours nor mine as individuals. 'We' can help.. but 
it is upto the OSM community as a whole.




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