Re: [Tagging] artificial cave, historic military shelter

2016-09-04 Thread ksg 

> Am 02.09.2016 um 15:43 schrieb demon.box :
> 
> hi, how can I tag correctly this artificial cave, used like a shelter for the
> austriac soldiers during the 1915-1918 first world war?
> 
> amenity=shelter
> shelter_type=rock_shelter
> man_made=yes
> historic=yes
> 
> it could be correct?
> 

Ciao Enrico,

I’ve used in similar cases man_made=adit, see example from Sappada: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3931257960

geow




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Re: [Tagging] artificial cave, historic military shelter

2016-09-04 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 04 set 2016, alle ore 15:30, Richard  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> For the touristy things something like amenity or tourism may be better.


tourism could occur at any of these places, but they are not set up for 
tourists (like hotels or beach resorts for instance), and many might be in 
gardens and parks without being a particular tourist attraction (because not 
often accessible). Maybe historic=grotto would suit for these. I just recall 
having one mapped here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3496752463
"natural" more like in natural=water
but historic=grotto is maybe a better tag.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] artificial cave, historic military shelter

2016-09-04 Thread Richard 
On Sun, Sep 04, 2016 at 12:09:43PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > Il giorno 04 set 2016, alle ore 11:40, Richard  ha 
> > scritto:
> > 
> > Also, I would 
> > argue that "natural" implies natural
> 
> 
> ok, agreed
> 
> 
> 
> > and there have been enough informal 
> > proposals for man_made=shaft and similar.
> 
> 
> I think a shaft is pretty different from those grottoes I mentioned, in being 
> a vertical, regular structure and normally longer, while the artificial, 
> decorative/recreational grottoes are not very deep. Also the former is 
> usually of technical character, while the latter is decorative.

agreed, I gathered a few alternatives which I found in the Cave page.

> maybe man_made=grotto for these cases?

what would that be? Look at the EN-wikipedia page.. quite a few meanings.

For the touristy things something like amenity or tourism may be better.
Also grottos apparently may be either man_made or natural according to 
english wikipedia.

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] artificial cave, historic military shelter

2016-09-04 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 04 set 2016, alle ore 11:40, Richard  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Also, I would 
> argue that "natural" implies natural


ok, agreed



> and there have been enough informal 
> proposals for man_made=shaft and similar.


I think a shaft is pretty different from those grottoes I mentioned, in being a 
vertical, regular structure and normally longer, while the artificial, 
decorative/recreational grottoes are not very deep. Also the former is usually 
of technical character, while the latter is decorative.

maybe man_made=grotto for these cases?

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] artificial cave, historic military shelter

2016-09-04 Thread Richard 
On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 06:24:16PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> Besides this, in the first five years of that OSM wiki article there was no
> mention of artificial caves, it was only 2 years ago when LastGrape decided
> to put this sentence about man made caves onto this page, and it is not
> clear whether this is really the consensus of the community or just a not
> well thought through sentence he unilaterally put in.

it is not just this one sentence, it's also natural=cave_entrance which was 
for natural caves from the beginning (eg the 2007 proposal). Also, I would 
argue that "natural" implies natural and there have been enough informal 
proposals for man_made=shaft and similar.

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] artificial cave, historic military shelter

2016-09-02 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2016-09-02 18:04 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić :

> I'm not sure. Natural=cave is for natural caves, but the wiki on the cave
> page says that man made caves are historic=mine:




It doesn't say they are mines, it says that man made caves might be mines.
It also says that "mining tunnels, air raid shelters or dugouts" aren't
caves, but it doesn't speak about Grottoes for instance, about which
wikipedia writes that they are "natural or artificial caves".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotto

Besides this, in the first five years of that OSM wiki article there was no
mention of artificial caves, it was only 2 years ago when LastGrape decided
to put this sentence about man made caves onto this page, and it is not
clear whether this is really the consensus of the community or just a not
well thought through sentence he unilaterally put in.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] artificial cave, historic military shelter

2016-09-02 Thread Janko Mihelić 
I'm not sure. Natural=cave is for natural caves, but the wiki on the cave
page says that man made caves are historic=mine:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cave#Man_Made

Historic=mine wiki talks only about mineral mines.

Shelter_type=rock_shelter is also a natural rock formation, not deep enough
to be called a cave.

In other words, we don't have appropriate tags. I would rather use
natural=cave than rock_shelter. At least it correctly shows the type of the
hole, if not the way it was created. We also use natural=water for man made
reservoirs, so I think we can use natural for man made caves too.
Dana 2. 9. 2016. 15:44 "demon.box"  je napisao/la:

> hi, how can I tag correctly this artificial cave, used like a shelter for
> the
> austriac soldiers during the 1915-1918 first world war?
>
> 
>
> amenity=shelter
> shelter_type=rock_shelter
> man_made=yes
> historic=yes
>
> it could be correct?
>
> p.s. it's located near to Monte Tremalzo (Italy)
>
> thanks very much.
>
> --enrico
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com
> /artificial-cave-historic-military-shelter-tp5881560.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [Tagging] artificial cave, historic military shelter

2016-09-02 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 02 set 2016, alle ore 15:43, demon.box  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> hi, how can I tag correctly this artificial cave, used like a shelter for the
> austriac soldiers during the 1915-1918 first world war?
> 
>  
> 
> amenity=shelter
> shelter_type=rock_shelter
> man_made=yes
> historic=yes


what about 
military=bunker
bunker_type=rock-cut
start_date=1915

the bunker_type tag is already widely used, the value was invented on the fly, 
maybe you can find something that is already used and pertinent: 
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/bunker_type#values

not completely sure about military=bunker, it would be suitable for military 
protection, while the shelter tag you suggest is suitable for protection 
against the weather.

I believe that a start_date tag would serve the purpose of historical placement 
much better than a historic=yes tag which really says almost nothing. Similarly 
the man_made=yes, which is implied by the word rock-cut and can be left out

It would still be desirable in this context to find a tag that says that the 
feature has been created by the Austrian Army. Is there already something in 
use?

Cheers,
Martin 



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[Tagging] artificial cave, historic military shelter

2016-09-02 Thread demon.box 
hi, how can I tag correctly this artificial cave, used like a shelter for the
austriac soldiers during the 1915-1918 first world war?

 

amenity=shelter
shelter_type=rock_shelter
man_made=yes
historic=yes

it could be correct?

p.s. it's located near to Monte Tremalzo (Italy)

thanks very much.

--enrico 



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