Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
Am 26.02.2014 13:23, schrieb Richard Welty:
i'm currently tinkering with what will be come a proposal to modify
current hydrant tagging.
my thinking is to add
fire_hydrant:water_source={main,pond,stream,standpipe}
and deprecate fire_hydrant:type=pond
no objections except 'standpipe' - see below.
then the issue is whether we want to modify fire_hydrant:type or
replace it with a different tag altogether, say fire_hydrant:delivery
if we keep type, should we replace pillar with plug or fire_plug or just
let that go.
I would keep hydrant:type - because it is a physical type/design in my
opinion.
With hydrant:delivery I would not assume the physical type, sorry.
And I would keep type=pillar.
With fire_plug I - and I suppose many others - would assume something
you can connect with or to.
And that are all hydrants in any design, it is too generic in my opinion.
Regarding standpipe:
I would understand 'standpipe' as the device you need to connect to
underground hydrants.
So I would not use standpipe for hydrant:source but 'riser' instead, may
be distuingish between dry_riser or wet_riser.
Georg
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
I also disagree with standpipe, in UK usage a standpipe is an emergency source
of water provided for residents if mains water if off for some reason.
Phil (trigpoint)
--
Sent from my Nokia N9
On 27/02/2014 9:37 Georg Feddern wrote:
Am 26.02.2014 13:23, schrieb Richard Welty:
i'm currently tinkering with what will be come a proposal to modify
current hydrant tagging.
my thinking is to add
fire_hydrant:water_source={main,pond,stream,standpipe}
and deprecate fire_hydrant:type=pond
no objections except 'standpipe' - see below.
then the issue is whether we want to modify fire_hydrant:type or
replace it with a different tag altogether, say fire_hydrant:delivery
if we keep type, should we replace pillar with plug or fire_plug or just
let that go.
I would keep hydrant:type - because it is a physical type/design in my
opinion.
With hydrant:delivery I would not assume the physical type, sorry.
And I would keep type=pillar.
With fire_plug I - and I suppose many others - would assume something
you can connect with or to.
And that are all hydrants in any design, it is too generic in my opinion.
Regarding standpipe:
I would understand 'standpipe' as the device you need to connect to
underground hydrants.
So I would not use standpipe for hydrant:source but 'riser' instead, may
be distuingish between dry_riser or wet_riser.
Georg
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
On 2/27/14 4:37 AM, Georg Feddern wrote: Am 26.02.2014 13:23, schrieb Richard Welty: then the issue is whether we want to modify fire_hydrant:type or replace it with a different tag altogether, say fire_hydrant:delivery if we keep type, should we replace pillar with plug or fire_plug or just let that go. I would keep hydrant:type - because it is a physical type/design in my opinion. With hydrant:delivery I would not assume the physical type, sorry. And I would keep type=pillar. With fire_plug I - and I suppose many others - would assume something you can connect with or to. And that are all hydrants in any design, it is too generic in my opinion. fire plug in US usage is pretty specific, whereas pillar is a complete mystery in the US. since there is no UK usage as the type is not in service there, it kind of leaves things open, as normally OSM uses UK english as the baseline and it doesn't help in this case. Regarding standpipe: I would understand 'standpipe' as the device you need to connect to underground hydrants. So I would not use standpipe for hydrant:source but 'riser' instead, may be distuingish between dry_riser or wet_riser. in US usage, standpipe is common usage for systems in buildings, we have almost no underground hydrants, so that usage is unknown here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/nfgusedautoparts/12813740234/ i am discussing terminology with a retired UK firefighter, i will find out from him what standard UK usage is for standpipe/riser systems in buildings richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
Richard, fire_hydrant:type should remain unchanged, as this is negotiated with local fire departments here in Austria (as well as Germany). At least this is true for pillar and underground, those are most common and most important. Then there are fixed suction points, either from a pond or from the ground water (well). There is no ideal tagging for this available, this pond may be adjustable. Things like the color don't make that much sense to me, is this one http://www.scardo.net/typo/fileadmin/hydrantderwoche/20121125_WeinWasser_Ai.jpg blue? or stainless steel? But everybody here recognizes this as a hydrant, whatever color that is. Hydrant class may make sense to you, this is what we use the diameter for (most common are 80 and 100). Just to give you an idea how those are used (really used by the local fire department there): http://openfiremap.org/?zoom=17lat=48.12184lon=16.33877 Other optional parameters as you like, they don't make that much sense to us here. /al (from Vienna, Austria) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
On 2/27/14 2:36 PM, Andreas Labres wrote: Richard, fire_hydrant:type should remain unchanged, as this is negotiated with local fire departments here in Austria (as well as Germany). At least this is true for pillar and underground, those are most common and most important. i now am proposing that pillar be supplemented with dry_barrel and wet_barrel, and that pillar itself remain unchanged. Then there are fixed suction points, either from a pond or from the ground water (well). There is no ideal tagging for this available, this pond may be adjustable. i'm proposing separating water source out because different types of delivery device (pillars, pipes) show up in these cases in the US, i don't think that the water source and the delivery device should be conflated into one tag. Things like the color don't make that much sense to me, is this one http://www.scardo.net/typo/fileadmin/hydrantderwoche/20121125_WeinWasser_Ai.jpg blue? or stainless steel? But everybody here recognizes this as a hydrant, whatever color that is. color may be more relevant in the US. Hydrant class may make sense to you, this is what we use the diameter for (most common are 80 and 100). Just to give you an idea how those are used (really used by the local fire department there): http://openfiremap.org/?zoom=17lat=48.12184lon=16.33877 some US departments use the main diameter; others use class. there is no direct translation between class and diameter, nor is there a direct translation between pressure and class. Other optional parameters as you like, they don't make that much sense to us here. fundamentally i'm arguing for latitude to match local conditions. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
Color-coding is likely used by the fire department to signify matters such as how much water-flow is available. I don't know how standardized these color codes are, however. On February 27, 2014 1:36:48 PM CST, Andreas Labres l...@lab.at wrote: Richard, fire_hydrant:type should remain unchanged, as this is negotiated with local fire departments here in Austria (as well as Germany). At least this is true for pillar and underground, those are most common and most important. Then there are fixed suction points, either from a pond or from the ground water (well). There is no ideal tagging for this available, this pond may be adjustable. Things like the color don't make that much sense to me, is this one http://www.scardo.net/typo/fileadmin/hydrantderwoche/20121125_WeinWasser_Ai.jpg blue? or stainless steel? But everybody here recognizes this as a hydrant, whatever color that is. Hydrant class may make sense to you, this is what we use the diameter for (most common are 80 and 100). Just to give you an idea how those are used (really used by the local fire department there): http://openfiremap.org/?zoom=17lat=48.12184lon=16.33877 Other optional parameters as you like, they don't make that much sense to us here. /al (from Vienna, Austria) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
On 2/27/14 2:56 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: Color-coding is likely used by the fire department to signify matters such as how much water-flow is available. I don't know how standardized these color codes are, however. there are standards published by the AWWA (American Water Works Association) and the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) which are approximately the same. however, they are honored by some departments but not others. barrel color is supposed to be chrome yellow, and the bonnet and caps are supposed to be painted to indicate flow capacity at 20psi. details of the standards may be found here: http://www.firehydrant.org/info/design07.html some departments use bonnet and/or cap color to indicate the main diameter. this is easier to do than measure flow capacity but provides less useful information; in theory a hydrant on an 8 main can produce 1000 GPM at 20 psi, but in practice they sometimes produce noticeably less. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
Am 25.02.2014 17:08, schrieb Richard Welty: i'm wondering if anyone can speak to where the tagging for fire_hydrant:type came from? AFAIK the Germans are guilty again - and I plea myself for not-guilty. ;-) (see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant and their history) And yes - pond does not really match a hydrant 'type' - the hydrant type there may be still a 'pillar' or an 'underground', less a 'wall'. Is it possible, that in UK/US the 'pillar' type is the norm and the 'underground' type is not wide spreaded? At least the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant uses the term 'post- or pillar-type fire hydrant' - but I do not know who wrote that. At least there is a desire to distinguish between 'pillar' (or synonym) vice 'underground' vice 'wall'. Georg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
On 2/26/14 3:30 AM, Georg Feddern wrote:
Am 25.02.2014 17:08, schrieb Richard Welty:
i'm wondering if anyone can speak to where the tagging
for fire_hydrant:type came from?
AFAIK the Germans are guilty again - and I plea myself for not-guilty.
;-)
(see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant
and their history)
And yes - pond does not really match a hydrant 'type' - the hydrant
type there may be still a 'pillar' or an 'underground', less a 'wall'.
Is it possible, that in UK/US the 'pillar' type is the norm and the
'underground' type is not wide spreaded?
my understanding that the classic plug (pillar in our tagging) is
used little if at all in the UK, but it is the norm for pressurized
water system deployments in the US. underground is the norm
in the UK.
At least the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant uses the term
'post- or pillar-type fire hydrant'
- but I do not know who wrote that.
i'm currently tinkering with what will be come a proposal to modify
current hydrant tagging.
my thinking is to add
fire_hydrant:water_source={main,pond,stream,standpipe}
and deprecate fire_hydrant:type=pond
then the issue is whether we want to modify fire_hydrant:type or
replace it with a different tag altogether, say fire_hydrant:delivery
if we keep type, should we replace pillar with plug or fire_plug or just
let that go.
i had a while back discussed updating tags for hydrants. i now
have a simple set that i'm using that seems to cover the cases i'm
encountering. here are colour: tags
colour already exists and in this context describes the main color
of the hydrant (call it the barrel color)
colour:cap describes the color(s) of the caps on the hydrant if
they differ from the body color
colour:bonnet describes the color of the top section if it differs
from the body color (i had been using colour:top but it turns out
that firefighters in the US call it the bonnet; since the hydrant type
is rare or nonexistent in the UK i'd suggest going with US usage)
colour:reflective indicates the color of any reflective material applied
to the hydrant
others of value (all prefixed with fire_hydrant:) :
capacity= flow capacity in local units
class={AA,A,B,C}- American Water Works Association classification
scheme, derived from capacity and may be easier to obtain
in_service={yes,no} - this turns out to be a very real issue
the existing diameter tag remains as is, the diameter of the main
the hydrant is attached to. this measurement is commonly used
in both the US and UK.
things i haven't got tagging worked out for yet:
outlet diameters
outlet threads
number of outlets
wrench types
orientation (is the steamer connection perpendicular to the
curb, which is common, or rotated 45 degrees, which affects
the hookup procedure).
richard
--
rwe...@averillpark.net
Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting
OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
Java - Web Applications - Search
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
i'm wondering if anyone can speak to where the tagging for fire_hydrant:type came from? i'm seeing two issues with it right now. one is that it conflates two concepts that probably should be separated, the physical delivery method, e.g. fire_hydrant:type=pillar and the water source fire_hydrant:type=pond the other is that pillar is not representative of any normal english language terminology i'm aware of. in the US, it would be a fire_plug, and there is no UK equivalent because the style of connection to the water mains for fire fighting is completely different there. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] origin of some fire_hydrant tagging
I wonder if there might be some regional variation in the US: I've always thought of them as fire hydrants rather than fire plugs. Looks like fire plug might be an older term and technology maybe coming out of England based on the introductory paragraph at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant -Tod On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:08 AM, Richard Welty wrote: i'm wondering if anyone can speak to where the tagging for fire_hydrant:type came from? i'm seeing two issues with it right now. one is that it conflates two concepts that probably should be separated, the physical delivery method, e.g. fire_hydrant:type=pillar and the water source fire_hydrant:type=pond the other is that pillar is not representative of any normal english language terminology i'm aware of. in the US, it would be a fire_plug, and there is no UK equivalent because the style of connection to the water mains for fire fighting is completely different there. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
