Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Hakuch]

On 07.12.2016 23:48, LeTopographeFou wrote:
> On editor side both JOSM and ID use office=estate_agent (unofficial) and
> do not recognise shop=estate_agent (official). This will definitively
> not help the approved one to grow.
> 
> Consequently it looks like the "in use" one is killing (has already
> killed?) the "approved" one.

as you can see in taghistory
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/5/5a/Taghistory.png), office
crossed the number of shop in end of 2012 and then increased rapidly (I
guess because of iD?).

That case shows once again, that our proposal process is not working
reliable.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Andy Townsend]

On 07/12/2016 22:48, LeTopographeFou wrote:


Hi,

I will probably reopen an explosive case but I would like to know 
where we are reguarding shop=estate_agent vs office=estate_agent.




Personally I use both - "shop" for places that are primarily B2C and 
fitted out as shops, and "office" for places that are more B2B, 
back-office, or service-led, or "feel more like offices".


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Éric Gillet]

2016-12-08 11:25 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> > On 8 Dec 2016, at 01:49, Mike N  wrote:
> >
> > Like all things in OSM, I'm not sure how to migrate to a new consensus
> of office=
>
>
> just use office, and add a hint to the wiki. As was pointed out above,
> actual migration has already taken place, given the usage numbers and
> support by the 2 mostly used editors.
>

I agree.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8 Dec 2016, at 01:49, Mike N  wrote:
> 
> Like all things in OSM, I'm not sure how to migrate to a new consensus of 
> office=


just use office, and add a hint to the wiki. As was pointed out above, actual 
migration has already taken place, given the usage numbers and support by the 2 
mostly used editors.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Aun Johnsen]

I am among the few that have tried to buy real estate in multiple countries, 
and I would definitely heal against office=

Entering a real estate agency doesn’t feel like a shop, neither in Europe, nor 
in South America, where I have first hand experience

All estate agency I have entered have the layout of offices. 

I have noticed estate agencies that solely announce on internet and newspaper 
without any “shop-front” at all, and use the announcements to get people to 
on-site sightings of the houses and apartments for sale, and rely solely on 
media and on-site to sell.

The few times I have had “in shop presentation” of a house or apartment have 
all been for new developments, where no showcase apartment or house have been 
available.

Based on all of these experiences, shop=estate_agent feels and sounds wrong, 
while office=estate_agent feel and sound like the way to go.

Aun Johnsen



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Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Mike N]

On 12/7/2016 5:48 PM, LeTopographeFou wrote:

Several years after this debate, the wiki page of the approved one
(shop=estate_agent) have been tagged as "to be merged", both shop and
office are documented and here are the statistics:


 I would also lean toward office= because it describes the situation 
much better.   I had used shop= earlier, but already migrated my own 
tags.   After all, you don't walk into one of these locations to buy an 
estate_agent.


  Like all things in OSM, I'm not sure how to migrate to a new 
consensus of office=



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Re: [Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[Tod Fitch]

For what it is worth, in the regional dialect of American English I speak and 
the area I live in, realtors (“estate agents” or “real estate agents”) work out 
of an “realty office” or a “real estate office”. It might be a “store front” 
office, but the office is very likely to only be open during normal local 
“office hours” rather than normal local “retail hours”. Its furnishings will be 
office like (desks, chairs, etc.) rather than retail like (display cases and 
counters). And much of the time the smaller concerns may have an office that is 
closed when the agents are out with clients or only be open by appointment or 
when there is paperwork to be signed.

I sold one house last year and purchased another. I never visited the office of 
the selling agent on the first house. And only visited the office we had for 
purchasing the other house twice, both times to sign some paperwork.

So from my experience, office=estate_agent makes more sense than 
shop=estate_agent.

It is a large world and customs and laws pertaining to the transfer of real 
estate could be much different elsewhere, but I’ll continue to think of them 
and tag them as offices.

> On Dec 7, 2016, at 2:48 PM, LeTopographeFou  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I will probably reopen an explosive case but I would like to know where we 
> are reguarding shop=estate_agent vs office=estate_agent.
> 
> On the discussion page for the original proposal 
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Estate_Agent 
> ) 
> there is already some debates on this one but because the tag office was not 
> yet created, shop has been prefered. And probably also because concensus was 
> not strong enought toward office.
> 
> Several years after this debate, the wiki page of the approved one 
> (shop=estate_agent) have been tagged as "to be merged", both shop and office 
> are documented and here are the statistics:
> 
> office=estate_agent 
>  (status in 
> use) => 17 227 use
> shop=estate_agent 
>  (status 
> approved) => 3 818 use
> On editor side both JOSM and ID use office=estate_agent (unofficial) and do 
> not recognise shop=estate_agent (official). This will definitively not help 
> the approved one to grow.
> Consequently it looks like the "in use" one is killing (has already killed?) 
> the "approved" one.
> 
> => Is there any ongoing plan to clarify the situation? Any up to date 
> discussion page/proposal I did not found yet?
> 
> If one ask for my opinion, I would tend to say that we shall not think by 
> purpose of the company but by purpose of the place we map (OSM is all about 
> mapping right?):
> a shop is where you can buy something, regardless it is a desk in the midddle 
> of a room or nice rows of shelves with products and prices. Consequently a 
> "place" at the corner of the street where you can enter and buy a real estate 
> would be a shop.
> an office is where people are working, usually at desks, and are not 
> primarily dedicated to wait for customers, welcome them and sell products. 
> Consequently, the headquarter of this real estate chain (or a building 
> dedicated to an administrative or internal service) would be an office.
> If everything (selling and administrative) is at the same place, I think that 
> shop should be prefered (but one can use both on the same object).
> This is like the HQ of a bank or a post company: it's more an office than an 
> amenity (and sometimes there is no counter nor ATM inside).
> 
> In this scenario shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent would coexist, 
> each one with its own meaning (or another mecanism to differenciate an open 
> shop from a limited-access office, both working to sell/manage real estates, 
> would be devised). Same principle can be applied to insurances, law firms... 
> which are suffering from the same issue.
> Yours,
> -- 
> LeTopographeFou


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[Tagging] shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent

[LeTopographeFou]

Hi,

I will probably reopen an explosive case but I would like to know where 
we are reguarding shop=estate_agent vs office=estate_agent.


On the discussion page for the original proposal 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Estate_Agent) 
there is already some debates on this one but because the tag office was 
not yet created, shop has been prefered. And probably also because 
concensus was not strong enought toward office.


Several years after this debate, the wiki page of the approved one 
(shop=estate_agent) have been tagged as "to be merged", both shop and 
office are documented and here are the statistics:


 * office=estate_agent
   
   (status in use) => 17 227 use
 * shop=estate_agent
   
   (status approved) => 3 818 use

On editor side both JOSM and ID use office=estate_agent (unofficial) and 
do not recognise shop=estate_agent (official). This will definitively 
not help the approved one to grow.


Consequently it looks like the "in use" one is killing (has already 
killed?) the "approved" one.


=> Is there any ongoing plan to clarify the situation? Any up to date 
discussion page/proposal I did not found yet?


If one ask for my opinion, I would tend to say that we shall not think 
by purpose of the company but by purpose of the place we map (OSM is all 
about mapping right?):


 * a shop is where you can buy something, regardless it is a desk in
   the midddle of a room or nice rows of shelves with products and
   prices. Consequently a "place" at the corner of the street where you
   can enter and buy a real estate would be a shop.
 * an office is where people are working, usually at desks, and are not
   primarily dedicated to wait for customers, welcome them and sell
   products. Consequently, the headquarter of this real estate chain
   (or a building dedicated to an administrative or internal service)
   would be an office.

If everything (selling and administrative) is at the same place, I think 
that shop should be prefered (but one can use both on the same object).


This is like the HQ of a bank or a post company: it's more an office 
than an amenity (and sometimes there is no counter nor ATM inside).


In this scenario shop=estate_agent and office=estate_agent would 
coexist, each one with its own meaning (or another mecanism to 
differenciate an open shop from a limited-access office, both working to 
sell/manage real estates, would be devised). Same principle can be 
applied to insurances, law firms... which are suffering from the same issue.


Yours,

--
LeTopographeFou

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