Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
On 21/11/2020 15.07, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: My understanding about this is that there is a difference between British English usage and American usage - especially in the western USA. The English seem to have an idea that "rock" is for mostly solid, immobile "bedrock", while a "stone" is a mobile, separate piece of mineral which you might pick up if you are strong enough, or at least move with a piece of heavy machinery. [...] But American English and perhaps other dialects do not always maintain this distinction, in my experience. "I picked up one of the rocks from my stone driveway." "Look at all these stones I pulled out of the river; sure is rocky in there!" -- Matthew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
My understanding about this is that there is a difference between British English usage and American usage - especially in the western USA. The English seem to have an idea that "rock" is for mostly solid, immobile "bedrock", while a "stone" is a mobile, separate piece of mineral which you might pick up if you are strong enough, or at least move with a piece of heavy machinery. Hence the distinction between natural=stone and natural=bare_rock in the wiki, and the different definitions in the OED (lexico): Rock: The solid mineral material forming part of the surface of the earth and other similar planets, exposed on the surface or underlying the soil or oceans - https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/rock - example "‘the beds of rock are slightly tilted’" Rock: "the dry solid part of earth's surface, or any large piece of this that sticks up out of the ground or the sea" https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rock Stone: https://www.lexico.com/definition/stone - "Hard solid non-metallic mineral matter ... especially as a building material. ‘the houses are built of stone’" and especially the next definition: 1.2 count noun "A small piece of rock found on the ground." Stone: "the hard, solid substance found in the ground that is often used for building, or a piece of this" - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/stone But American English and perhaps other dialects do not always maintain this distinction, in my experience. So in theory surface=stones would be best when there are large separate stones, similar to surface=cobblestone or surface=scree(?), while surface=bare_rock or surface=rock would suggest mostly solid bedrock, if these tags are actually going to be used in different ways based on British English. But it is unlikely that most mappers will understand the difference. -- Joseph Eisenberg On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 11:25 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > > > > Nov 21, 2020, 17:43 by o...@westnordost.de: > > rock „pieces“ would be tagged as „stone“ I guess? > > > Not so sure about that, then it would be surface=stones, (note the plural) > wouldn't it? > > I am completely fine with both versions. > I created today https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:surface%3Drock > where I described surface=rock as fitting for them - but feel free to > change this > > - Rock implies a rough naturalness > > +1 > > - Steps made of large (single-piece) hewn stone columns would be called > 'stone steps' > > so surface=stone (surface=stones) would be more fitting for them? > > - Bare [rock] implies the lack of rubble on top > > Small amount: yes > Complete lack of it: no. > > See for example > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krywan_podejscie.jpg > > Especially for easily eroding rock that is breaking piece by piece some > rubble will be always > present. > > - Scree is specially loose > > +1 > > - Personally I think bare_rock and stone are synonyms here, unless someone > thinks there's a difference. > > Yes, even if we would invent some differences none would be present in de > facto usage > (different areas with different differences and subtle distinctions) > > rock = rough natural stone, could be loose stones too > stone = smooth stone / bare rock, could be hewn > bare_rock = probably similar to stone, definitely no loose stones > scree = surface like (large) gravel, natural > rocky = scree is rocky, piles of differently sized rocks are rocky > > Overall I think that I am fine with surface=rock, but I am not opposed to > also other > values (though I am not going to make proposals or wiki pages for them) > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
Nov 21, 2020, 17:43 by o...@westnordost.de: >> rock „pieces“ would be tagged as „stone“ I guess? >> > > Not so sure about that, then it would be surface=stones, (note the plural) > wouldn't it? > I am completely fine with both versions. I created today https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:surface%3Drock where I described surface=rock as fitting for them - but feel free to change this > - Rock implies a rough naturalness > +1 > - Steps made of large (single-piece) hewn stone columns would be called > 'stone steps' > so surface=stone (surface=stones) would be more fitting for them? > - Bare [rock] implies the lack of rubble on top > Small amount: yes Complete lack of it: no. See for example https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krywan_podejscie.jpg Especially for easily eroding rock that is breaking piece by piece some rubble will be always present. > - Scree is specially loose > +1 > - Personally I think bare_rock and stone are synonyms here, unless someone > thinks there's a difference. > Yes, even if we would invent some differences none would be present in de facto usage (different areas with different differences and subtle distinctions) > rock = rough natural stone, could be loose stones too > stone = smooth stone / bare rock, could be hewn > bare_rock = probably similar to stone, definitely no loose stones > scree = surface like (large) gravel, natural > rocky = scree is rocky, piles of differently sized rocks are rocky > Overall I think that I am fine with surface=rock, but I am not opposed to also other values (though I am not going to make proposals or wiki pages for them) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
> rock „pieces“ would be tagged as „stone“ I guess? Not so sure about that, then it would be surface=stones, (note the plural) wouldn't it? --- There is a huge discussion on the #tagging channel on OSM slack (85+ replies) where all those "rocky" surface are being discussed. Here are some statements from this discussion, also on the difference between "surface=rock" and "surface=stone". Most from Brian Sperlongano and Elliott Plack: - Rock implies a rough naturalness - Steps made of large (single-piece) hewn stone columns would be called 'stone steps' - Bare [rock] implies the lack of rubble on top - Scree is specially loose - Personally I think bare_rock and stone are synonyms here, unless someone thinks there's a difference. - bare_rock has 569 usages, rock has 2759 usages and stone has 6402 usages, scree has 319 usages, rocky has 1400 uses --- For Germans, I'd say stone roughly translates to "Stein" while rock translates to "Fels". To summarize the above: rock = rough natural stone, could be loose stones too stone = smooth stone / bare rock, could be hewn bare_rock = probably similar to stone, definitely no loose stones scree = surface like (large) gravel, natural rocky = scree is rocky, piles of differently sized rocks are rocky Tobias On 21/11/2020 09:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone On 20. Nov 2020, at 23:22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote: Both for exposed natural rock and steps/footways made of rock pieces? rock „pieces“ would be tagged as „stone“ I guess? Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
sent from a phone > On 20. Nov 2020, at 23:22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging > wrote: > > Both for exposed natural rock and steps/footways made of rock pieces? rock „pieces“ would be tagged as „stone“ I guess? Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 08:41, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairn it seems that it is > something more purposefully constructed than > "pile of unwanted stones kept in one place" > Yes, that's what I thought man_made=pile_of_stones ? > Had a look & there are 14 uses of man_made=bare_rock & 9 of =rock. May just go for man_made=rock_pile Just spotted this image which is very similar to what I was talking about https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rock_Pile_-_geograph.org.uk_-_443119.jpg On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 09:00, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote: > We call them stone walls, but every so often a pedantist comes along and > reminds us that they're actually stone fences. > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 5:56 PM Paul Allen wrote: > >> >> In the part of the world I was raised, rocks cleared from fields were used >> to build drystone walls. Solves two problems with one stone. >> > Thanks, fellas, but no rock walls / fences, just a pile :-) Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
We call them stone walls, but every so often a pedantist comes along and reminds us that they're actually stone fences. On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 5:56 PM Paul Allen wrote: > On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 22:35, Graeme Fitzpatrick > wrote: > >> I was having similar thoughts just a couple of days ago, about what to >> call a pile of rocks that a farmer has cleared from, then piled up in, a >> field? >> > > In the part of the world I was raised, rocks cleared from fields were used > to build drystone walls. Solves two problems with one stone. > > -- > Paul > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 22:35, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > I was having similar thoughts just a couple of days ago, about what to > call a pile of rocks that a farmer has cleared from, then piled up in, a > field? > In the part of the world I was raised, rocks cleared from fields were used to build drystone walls. Solves two problems with one stone. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
I was having similar thoughts just a couple of days ago, about what to call a pile of rocks that a farmer has cleared from, then piled up in, a field? natural=bare_rock says it's exposed bedrock =scree has fallen from an adjacent rockface =shingle is on a beach or river bed =stone is for large boulders =rock is " a notable rock feature or small group of rocks, attached to the underlying bedrock" none of which really fit? I did see man_made=cairn as "a mound of stones, usually conical or pyramidal, raised as a landmark or to designate a point of importance in surveying", which also isn't really right, because this isn't for any use apart from getting all the rocks in one place. Thanks Graeme On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 at 08:01, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > It seems that we have no good value to mark surface of path of rocky paths. > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
There is also an undocumented surface=stone, which I tend to thing is identical to bare_rock. Though I could see "rock" meaning a rougher surface than stone/bare_rock. On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 5:22 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > > Nov 20, 2020, 23:14 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > > > sent from a phone > > On 20. Nov 2020, at 23:01, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < > tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > > surface=rock > surface=bare_rock > > > > these seem both explicit and ok, although bare rock is a bit redundant > and rock alone has 5 times the usage: > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/surface=rock > > Both for exposed natural rock and steps/footways made of rock pieces? > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
Nov 20, 2020, 23:14 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > > sent from a phone > > >> On 20. Nov 2020, at 23:01, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging >> wrote: >> >> surface=rock >> surface=bare_rock >> > > > these seem both explicit and ok, although bare rock is a bit redundant > and rock alone has 5 times the usage: > > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/surface=rock > Both for exposed natural rock and steps/footways made of rock pieces? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=rock
sent from a phone > On 20. Nov 2020, at 23:01, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging > wrote: > > surface=rock > surface=bare_rock these seem both explicit and ok, although bare rock is a bit redundant and rock alone has 5 times the usage: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/surface=rock I would go with this Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] surface=rock
It seems that we have no good value to mark surface of path of rocky paths. surface=gravel fits for surface of small rocks (almost always man made, though especially in mountains some may be of a natural origin) surface=fine_gravel fits for small gravel surface=unhewn_cobblestone =sett =paving_stones for processed rocks surface=ground is not specific at all (though sometimes useful to avoid splitting way into 191919 parts) suface=earth / dirt for exposed soil surface=mud for exposed soil that is typically full of water But it seems that we have no tag for exposed rock that ends as surface of path. It is typical on mountainous trails. See for example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bare_Rock_Trail_Surface_at_Lake_Roland.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krywan.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krywan_podejscie.jpg surface=rock surface=bare_rock () there is also case of surface made of unprocessed rocks (typically on trails with heavy use to protect area from erosion and tourists from mud) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hrebienok10Slovakia5.JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Trail_in_Tatra_mountains_paved_with_local_rocks.jpg surface=rock? other tag? (some time ago I floated idea of using surface=unhewn_cobblestone for them, but it was not liked by anyone - see https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=703751#p703751 ) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
