Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Pieren]

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 12:03 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Of course this can also be an advantage and be solved by subtagging.
>
>
I'm forwarding the discussion on the next mailing list.

is that okay if I modify the wiki page and suggest to use
"tunney=culvert" (and "ford=culvert" / "bridge=culvert")  instead of the
ambivalent "culvert=yes" ?

Pieren
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 6:50 AM, Pieren  wrote:
> is that okay if I modify the wiki page and suggest to use
> "tunnel=culvert" (and "ford=culvert" / "bridge=culvert")  instead of the
> ambivalent "culvert=yes" ?

I'd like to know what ford=culvert means first.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/8/27 Nathan Edgars II :
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 6:50 AM, Pieren  wrote:
>> is that okay if I modify the wiki page and suggest to use
>> "tunnel=culvert" (and "ford=culvert" / "bridge=culvert")  instead of the
>> ambivalent "culvert=yes" ?
>
> I'd like to know what ford=culvert means first.

+1

I'd like to see an example for ford=culvert and one for bridge=culvert
because I have no clue what this could be.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 7:00 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> I'd like to see an example for ford=culvert and one for bridge=culvert
> because I have no clue what this could be.

Bridge=culvert would be the same as tunnel=culvert but applied to the
way going over rather than under. It treats a culvert as a kind of
bridge, like bridge=suspension or bridge=bascule.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/8/27 Nathan Edgars II :
> Bridge=culvert would be the same as tunnel=culvert but applied to the
> way going over rather than under. It treats a culvert as a kind of
> bridge, like bridge=suspension or bridge=bascule.


I see. I don't like it because it would mean tagging a property of the
waterway at the road, but there is no connection between the street
and the culvert besides the proximity.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 7:21 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> 2010/8/27 Nathan Edgars II :
>> Bridge=culvert would be the same as tunnel=culvert but applied to the
>> way going over rather than under. It treats a culvert as a kind of
>> bridge, like bridge=suspension or bridge=bascule.
>
> I see. I don't like it because it would mean tagging a property of the
> waterway at the road, but there is no connection between the street
> and the culvert besides the proximity.

In those cases that are similar to bridges the road surface may change
at the culvert.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Pieren]

(sorry I replied on the wrong list)

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Cartinus  wrote:

>
> The seventy people who used the tag did not have a problem with
> understanding
> what they did.
>
> bridge=culvert is nonsense: A culvert is not a bridge.
>
>
Again, I'm not a native english speaker but It seems that "culvert" is also
used to designate a bridge. Some quick searches on internet:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Culvert_2_%28PSF%29.png
http://www.rommesmo.com/steeltruss.htm

or tunnels:
http://www.battlefieldsww2.50megs.com/culvert.htm

You always claim the "culver=yes" has been used by 70 people. But we also
have hundreds of dozen "tunnel=yes" on waterways which are probably
culverts.
My proposal is to change the wiki to tunnel=culvert (then forget the
bridge/ford). At least, this would make live easier for data consumers which
do not really care about the difference between tunnel=yes and culvert=yes
or pipe=yes or sewer=yes but could deal with tunnel=* (if we recommand
tunnel=yes/culvert/pipe/sewer)

Pieren
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Martin Simon]

2010/8/27 Nathan Edgars II :

> In those cases that are similar to bridges the road surface may change
> at the culvert.

So just tag what's there: a different surface=* on the road.

-Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[edodd]

> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 6:50 AM, Pieren  wrote:
>> is that okay if I modify the wiki page and suggest to use
>> "tunnel=culvert" (and "ford=culvert" / "bridge=culvert")  instead of the
>> ambivalent "culvert=yes" ?
>
> I'd like to know what ford=culvert means first.
>
> ___
>

Sorry, I should have photographed one I passed this morning, complete with
water.



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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Martin Simon  wrote:
> 2010/8/27 Nathan Edgars II :
>
>> In those cases that are similar to bridges the road surface may change
>> at the culvert.
>
> So just tag what's there: a different surface=* on the road.

(the other) Martin's statement was that "there is no connection
between the street and the culvert besides the proximity", which is
not true in these cases. (Also, if you're splitting the road to put
the different surface tag there, why not apply the culvert tag to it?
There's no clear line between bridge and tunnel, and trying to define
one will result in failure.)

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:55 AM,   wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 6:50 AM, Pieren  wrote:
>>> is that okay if I modify the wiki page and suggest to use
>>> "tunnel=culvert" (and "ford=culvert" / "bridge=culvert")  instead of the
>>> ambivalent "culvert=yes" ?
>>
>> I'd like to know what ford=culvert means first.
>
> Sorry, I should have photographed one I passed this morning, complete with
> water.

Perhaps you can describe it? The only thing I can think of is a normal
culvert where water also flows over the top if it's high enough.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[SomeoneElse]

 On 27/08/2010 13:42, Pieren wrote:
Again, I'm not a native english speaker but It seems that "culvert" is 
also used to designate a bridge. Some quick searches on internet:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Culvert_2_%28PSF%29.png
http://www.rommesmo.com/steeltruss.htm

or tunnels:
http://www.battlefieldsww2.50megs.com/culvert.htm

I'd say, from a British-English perspective, that in each of these the 
thing called the culvert is the thing below the bridge.  Obviously 
language and usage changes greatly with time and place (also, the car in 
the first link looks like a Chrysler Airflow from the 30s and may not 
reflect current usage).  The second is an excellent example of a 
"culverted stream", over which a bridge happens to run - the company 
concerned sells "Beam Bridges, Truss Bridges, Steel and Aluminum Box 
Culverts." (i.e. they separate bridges and culverts as products).  The 
third example is also clearly referring to the thing below the bridge (" 
the Culvert could be used by jeeps if some air was let out of the tires").**


My (English) 2p...

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Emilie Laffray]

On 27 August 2010 13:55,  wrote:

> > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 6:50 AM, Pieren  wrote:
> >> is that okay if I modify the wiki page and suggest to use
> >> "tunnel=culvert" (and "ford=culvert" / "bridge=culvert")  instead of the
> >> ambivalent "culvert=yes" ?
> >
> > I'd like to know what ford=culvert means first.
> >
> > ___
> >
>
> Sorry, I should have photographed one I passed this morning, complete with
> water.
>

I am sure there will be other opportunities to take that photo.

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:58 AM, SomeoneElse
 wrote:
> I'd say, from a British-English perspective, that in each of these the thing
> called the culvert is the thing below the bridge.

I believe, from an engineering perspective, the culvert is the
structure itself. So the water goes through the culvert and the road
goes either right on top of it or is separated by a layer of dirt.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[edodd]

> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:55 AM,   wrote:
>>> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 6:50 AM, Pieren  wrote:
 is that okay if I modify the wiki page and suggest to use
 "tunnel=culvert" (and "ford=culvert" / "bridge=culvert")  instead of
 the
 ambivalent "culvert=yes" ?
>>>
>>> I'd like to know what ford=culvert means first.
>>
>> Sorry, I should have photographed one I passed this morning, complete
>> with
>> water.
>
> Perhaps you can describe it? The only thing I can think of is a normal
> culvert where water also flows over the top if it's high enough.
>

In a town which does not have underground storm water management, the
gutters at the side of the roads have to cross one of the roads at an
intersection so you have a half-elliptical shaped culvert which traffic
crosses, making a little ford. The wikipedia definition of culvert is
simply "A culvert is a device used to channel water." and these fit into
that definition.


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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[edodd]

>>
>> Sorry, I should have photographed one I passed this morning, complete
>> with
>> water.
>>
>
> I am sure there will be other opportunities to take that photo.
>
> Emilie Laffray

rain has been pretty rare in the last 10 years, so only twice since then
have I seen the water in the little culverts


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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 9:17 AM,   wrote:
> In a town which does not have underground storm water management, the
> gutters at the side of the roads have to cross one of the roads at an
> intersection so you have a half-elliptical shaped culvert which traffic
> crosses, making a little ford. The wikipedia definition of culvert is
> simply "A culvert is a device used to channel water." and these fit into
> that definition.

I think that is (was, since I fixed it) an error in the Wikipedia
article: http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aculvert
Without a roof it's simply a drainage ditch (waterway=drain).

By the way, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culvert lists "a
bridge over a culvert" as one definition.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[John F. Eldredge]

I have also seen what is usually termed a low-water bridge, where you have a 
concrete ford across a stream, with a culvert at the center.  If the water is 
low enough for the full flow to pass through the culvert, vehicles can cross 
without getting their tires wet.  At medium water levels, the crossing is a 
ford.  At high water levels, you can't cross the stream.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging]  Culvert and average contributor
>From  :mailto:openstreet...@jonno.cix.co.uk
Date  :Fri Aug 27 08:35:41 America/Chicago 2010


  On 27/08/2010 14:17, ed...@billiau.net wrote:
> In a town which does not have underground storm water management, the
> gutters at the side of the roads have to cross one of the roads at an
> intersection so you have a half-elliptical shaped culvert which traffic
> crosses, making a little ford. The wikipedia definition of culvert is
> simply "A culvert is a device used to channel water." and these fit into
> that definition.

Nice selective quoting. The full description is:

"A *culvert* is a device used to channel water. It may be used to allow
water to pass underneath a road ,
railway , or embankment
 for
example. Culverts can be made of many different materials; steel
, polyvinyl chloride
 (PVC) and concrete
 are the most common. Formerly,
construction of stone culverts was common."

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culvert

If the vehicle travels through the water, it's a ford, not a culvert --
the water is passing *over* the road, not under it.

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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/8/27 Pieren :
> My proposal is to change the wiki to tunnel=culvert (then forget the
> bridge/ford).


+1, fine for me. Tag it on the waterway-way. If there is a bridge over
it, or a ford etc., tag this on the road as usual.


> At least, this would make live easier for data consumers which
> do not really care about the difference between tunnel=yes and culvert=yes
> or pipe=yes or sewer=yes but could deal with tunnel=* (if we recommand
> tunnel=yes/culvert/pipe/sewer)


yes, but they might have to be careful about culvert=no

cheers,
Martin

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