Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
On 12.01.2015 05:45, Paul Johnson wrote: How is this not a recycling center? I agree, perhaps the refund namespace should be a thing, but I don't think anybody, in practice, gives two shakes whether some teenager in the back of Fred Meyer is counting cans out of a cart or if they're dumping them into a CanStar bin, unless they buy a lot of off-brand products that are chain-specific (in which, you either would rather have someone just count cans instead of checking to actually see if that chain sold 'em or not, otherwise you're having to go find a /different/ chain's CanStar thingie to try again next time you take out a load of recycling, repeat ad nauseum, if your local bottle bill works the same way as Oregon's). Though that might also need supplemental tagging for brands accepted... Well, it is sort of a recycling center, after all those items end up in recycling. On the other hand there are recycling centers which do not offer refund. I'm not really sure how to solve that particular problem with shops that only accept certain brands. If your country does not have a legal basis for a refund system, which is at least controlled on a state level, this seems a lot of work for little benefit. However, in several European countries there are country-wide laws in place which (in theory) guarantee you that every refund place accepts all refundable items. Refundable items are marked with a small icon and there are not that many exceptions, so most bottles and cans are refundable, and accepted by those machines. Usually markets are not allowed to decline giving you refund for bottles marked with the symbol, but I am aware of at least one exception in Germany and Finland, where some markets at least try not to accept one particular item from a discount market called Lidl (usually you have to ask a person and then they will accept it, but they refuse to program the machine to accept those bottles). There is even a certain culture around this whole refund system, where some people collect bottles that are lying around and bring them to these machines to make some extra money. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
Apparently there is no consensus what to use to indicate reverse vending machines (RVM). I feel like this would be so much simpler if the amenity tag was not limited to vending_machines. In Germany everything is just called Automat. - cigarettes = Zigarettenautomat - parcel = Paketautomat (Well, not the most common word) - emty bottles = Leergutautomat And then you could just combine it with vending=, service=, recycling=, return= etc. I would really be in favor to change this, especially since most of the information is in vending= anyway. Is there a similar word? Otherwise you then have issues like with parcel where you bascially also have reverse vending when you send in a package, but you can't combine the amenity tags. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
Dana 11. 1. 2015. 10:22 osoba Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de napisala je: I feel like this would be so much simpler if the amenity tag was not limited to vending_machines. In Germany everything is just called Automat. - cigarettes = Zigarettenautomat - parcel = Paketautomat (Well, not the most common word) - emty bottles = Leergutautomat And then you could just combine it with vending=, service=, recycling=, return= etc. I think German would be better as a default tagging language, it's perfect with its word combinations :) I like the original proposal, but not so much the reverse_vending_machine phrase. Did you make that up or is it used somewhere? I'd like something like refund_machine. I know several shops that have employees that take your bottles and give you a cupon. That could be service:refund=yes plus all the other tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
On 11.01.2015 11:37, Janko Mihelić wrote: Dana 11. 1. 2015. 10:22 osoba Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de mailto:andi...@t-online.de napisala je: I feel like this would be so much simpler if the amenity tag was not limited to vending_machines. In Germany everything is just called Automat. - cigarettes = Zigarettenautomat - parcel = Paketautomat (Well, not the most common word) - emty bottles = Leergutautomat And then you could just combine it with vending=, service=, recycling=, return= etc. I think German would be better as a default tagging language, it's perfect with its word combinations :) I like the original proposal, but not so much the reverse_vending_machine phrase. Did you make that up or is it used somewhere? I'd like something like refund_machine. I know several shops that have employees that take your bottles and give you a cupon. That could be service:refund=yes plus all the other tags. Unfortunately I did not make this up :) In the OP I provided two links, one to the English Wikipedia article and one to Wiki Commons with pictures of different styles of RVMs. I, too, would feel more comfortable with the term refund. However, I do not know how widespread the term reverse vending machine is. On the other hand, in the wiki we would describe it both ways, just to make sure everyone finds it, and knows what is meant. Just for clarity: If there would be a common term, like in German, how would we denote the other options mentioned in the OP, such as operator, operator limitation, limit to marked refundable items? The latter was the reason why I thought the commonly used tags for recycling (e.g. glass bottle, plastic bottle) are not a good idea, because the refundable items are a subset of those. It would be nice *not* to mix those up, just to make the automatic data retrieval and querying easier. (Although I don't know how that would look like, this is an intuition.) Regards ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
On 11/01/2015 11:25, makko wrote: ... However, I do not know how widespread the term reverse vending machine is. ... In the UK, it isn't common - at least, I'd not heard of it before this thread. Interestingly, one of the links from the WP page is to a UK company that claims to have a trademark on the term. Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
On 11.01.2015 12:50, SomeoneElse wrote: In the UK, it isn't common - at least, I'd not heard of it before this thread. Interestingly, one of the links from the WP page is to a UK company that claims to have a trademark on the term. I see. Perhaps then it would better to use: amenity:refund_machine Since the term might be very broad, it would also fit with the other proposed tags to be used in the future, if there might be other sorts of refund machines. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
On 11.01.2015 14:34, Kotya Karapetyan wrote: I like the proposal. In Germany and in the Netherlands these machines are common and it is indeed important to know where one can find the nearest one. They are usually not operator-specific, though the voucher they issue can be redeemed only within the operator shop (or network). Indeed yes, but the machines are usually operated by a market chain and since I am always proclaiming that some operators only allow their own products to be refunded, we would at least need this option to keep the information about the operator. Remark 1: I wonder if we also want to indicate whether the machine is inside or outside the shop and if it is accessible outside working hours. Good point. As far as I know these machines are always inside (at least in Germany, Denmark, and Finland). They are sometimes located inside of a market or in a separate small room that is accessible directly with its own opening hours. I like the idea of using amenity:refund_machine service:refund=yes refund:plastic_bottles=yes refund:glass_bottles=yes refund:cans=yes refund:crates=yes Using the opening hours tag seems also appropriate, if the machine is located in its own room/building-part. I reconsidered the idea of using vending_machine or shop as a parent tag for refund machines, since it just is not right. These machines are, as mentioned above, sometimes more separate and should not be mixed with normal manual refund services that shops offer. Remark 2: Also some shops have multiple such machines (e.g. for glass and plastic), and OSM tagging scheme doesn't allow assigning the same key twice to one node. As a suggestion, we could ignore the fact that these are two (or more) separate machines and map it as one. This seems a bit unclean and a quick-fix. I would suggest to use the idea of ATM machines in this case and give each of those machines its own node. Especially since it happens that there are two machines, where only one of them accepts crates to be refunded ( see picture [1], taken in Finland). Furthermore, if people have a lot of refund to give, they might choose a refund point with at least 2 machines. Regarding the recycle type tag, with the suggestion above, we wouldn't use the same key twice. [1] Reverse Vending Machines in Finland, one of which accepts crates: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Bottle_reverse_vending_machines#mediaviewer/File:Pullonpalautusautomaatti.JPG ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
On Sun, 2015-01-11 at 11:50 +, SomeoneElse wrote: On 11/01/2015 11:25, makko wrote: ... However, I do not know how widespread the term reverse vending machine is. ... In the UK, it isn't common - at least, I'd not heard of it before this thread. Interestingly, one of the links from the WP page is to a UK company that claims to have a trademark on the term. Tesco did operate recycling machines in the UK which gave loyalty points, that can be spent in the store when recycling. By the time I discovered it they were only doing this for aluminium cans. An article here has a photo, 2nd in the scroll through of one. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3140821/Couple-scavenge-for-recycling-rubbish-to-pay-for-honeymoon-with-air-miles.html They have certainly disappeared at the local stores and been replaced by more traditional recycling banks. I assume this is the case nationally. Phil (trigpoint) Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
Building on Janko's comment, is this acceptable or lacking in some way? amenity=shop/vending_machine/... service:refund=yes refund:plastic_bottles=* refund:*=* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
On 11.01.2015 14:11, althio althio wrote: Building on Janko's comment, is this acceptable or lacking in some way? amenity=shop/vending_machine/... service:refund=yes refund:plastic_bottles=* refund:*=* Only perhaps the operator=market/chain name and something to indicate that the operator only refunds his own items. Other than that, this seems an adequate solution. I am not sure how this would make sense, maybe refund:operator_only=yes ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
I like the proposal. In Germany and in the Netherlands these machines are common and it is indeed important to know where one can find the nearest one. They are usually not operator-specific, though the voucher they issue can be redeemed only within the operator shop (or network). I have no clue how these machines are called in English, but refund_machine sounds generic enough. Remark 1: I wonder if we also want to indicate whether the machine is inside or outside the shop and if it is accessible outside working hours. Remark 2: Also some shops have multiple such machines (e.g. for glass and plastic), and OSM tagging scheme doesn't allow assigning the same key twice to one node. As a suggestion, we could ignore the fact that these are two (or more) separate machines and map it as one. Cheers, Kotya On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:58 PM, makko ma...@brainscorch.net wrote: On 11.01.2015 12:50, SomeoneElse wrote: In the UK, it isn't common - at least, I'd not heard of it before this thread. Interestingly, one of the links from the WP page is to a UK company that claims to have a trademark on the term. I see. Perhaps then it would better to use: amenity:refund_machine Since the term might be very broad, it would also fit with the other proposed tags to be used in the future, if there might be other sorts of refund machines. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
Would this be appropriate for the automated recycle centers that weigh recyclables and gave you credit? It is basically a dumpster with a scale and a terminal, but you leave behind cardboard, paper, etc for recycling. It's usually very limited in what they accept. Or is this thing just an automated recycle center, and different from what you guys are talking about? Javbw Sent from my iPad On Jan 11, 2015, at 11:00 PM, makko ma...@brainscorch.net wrote: On 11.01.2015 14:34, Kotya Karapetyan wrote: I like the proposal. In Germany and in the Netherlands these machines are common and it is indeed important to know where one can find the nearest one. They are usually not operator-specific, though the voucher they issue can be redeemed only within the operator shop (or network). Indeed yes, but the machines are usually operated by a market chain and since I am always proclaiming that some operators only allow their own products to be refunded, we would at least need this option to keep the information about the operator. Remark 1: I wonder if we also want to indicate whether the machine is inside or outside the shop and if it is accessible outside working hours. Good point. As far as I know these machines are always inside (at least in Germany, Denmark, and Finland). They are sometimes located inside of a market or in a separate small room that is accessible directly with its own opening hours. I like the idea of using amenity:refund_machine service:refund=yes refund:plastic_bottles=yes refund:glass_bottles=yes refund:cans=yes refund:crates=yes Using the opening hours tag seems also appropriate, if the machine is located in its own room/building-part. I reconsidered the idea of using vending_machine or shop as a parent tag for refund machines, since it just is not right. These machines are, as mentioned above, sometimes more separate and should not be mixed with normal manual refund services that shops offer. Remark 2: Also some shops have multiple such machines (e.g. for glass and plastic), and OSM tagging scheme doesn't allow assigning the same key twice to one node. As a suggestion, we could ignore the fact that these are two (or more) separate machines and map it as one. This seems a bit unclean and a quick-fix. I would suggest to use the idea of ATM machines in this case and give each of those machines its own node. Especially since it happens that there are two machines, where only one of them accepts crates to be refunded ( see picture [1], taken in Finland). Furthermore, if people have a lot of refund to give, they might choose a refund point with at least 2 machines. Regarding the recycle type tag, with the suggestion above, we wouldn't use the same key twice. [1] Reverse Vending Machines in Finland, one of which accepts crates: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Bottle_reverse_vending_machines#mediaviewer/File:Pullonpalautusautomaatti.JPG ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC: Reverse Vending Machine
On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, makko ma...@brainscorch.net wrote: Apparently there is no consensus what to use to indicate reverse vending machines (RVM). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_vending_machine and: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Bottle_reverse_ vending_machines I therefore would like to suggest a set of tags that can be used in this case. First of all the tag to indicate the RVM itself, applied to a single node: amenity=reverse_vending_machine Since most RVMs do not give out cash, we need something to indicate where the coupons or marks can be redeemed. For this I suggest using the operator tag with the markets or the market chains name as the value. operator= Market/Market Chain Furthermore, we need something to indicate what kind of items the RVM accepts. Some people suggested using the tags known from recycling for this. However, since refundable items usually require to have a certain icon or barcode, this seems not suitable. Additionally RVMs sometimes accept whole crates of bottles. Therefore I suggest using dedicated tags for this purpose: refund:plastic_bottles=yes refund:glass_bottles=yes refund:cans=yes refund:crates=yes How is this not a recycling center? I agree, perhaps the refund namespace should be a thing, but I don't think anybody, in practice, gives two shakes whether some teenager in the back of Fred Meyer is counting cans out of a cart or if they're dumping them into a CanStar bin, unless they buy a lot of off-brand products that are chain-specific (in which, you either would rather have someone just count cans instead of checking to actually see if that chain sold 'em or not, otherwise you're having to go find a *different* chain's CanStar thingie to try again next time you take out a load of recycling, repeat ad nauseum, if your local bottle bill works the same way as Oregon's). Though that might also need supplemental tagging for brands accepted... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
