Re: [Tagging] Non proposed features
2010/10/13 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de Inspired by the discussion on the Successful proposal proposal discussion I restarted the discussion about improving the map features management on the german forums: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=9604 Everybody feel free to join the discussion :) Feel free to talk about this in a german forum but important decisions like changing Map Features should take place on the international list. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non proposed features
Nice aspects Pieren, I agree your point of view concerning votes and how decissions were taken by (a smal part of) the community. Ok so your idea seem to be very familar to this idea 'garage'/incubator with the aim to discuss an feature idea more to vote on it? Yes voting is not represantative cause only a very small subset of active mappers are interested in creating new features and out of this ones again there are a hand full that are interested in voting/improving a proposal. So we want to change over to a more non vote but keeping the RFC like draft discussion approach? But how do we deal with the map features list, should they be managed? Managed by who? Managed by which guidelines? regards Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non proposed features
But how do we deal with the map features list, should they be managed? Managed by who? Managed by which guidelines? If map features were really to be mantained as an official list of OSM features, then they should be somehow enforced in applications. A sort of OSM certification for consumers that support all of a subset of tagging features. regards Matthias Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non proposed features
2010/9/7 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de Hi, there were no more ideas till somebody mentioned, that the voting process cant be repaired. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2010-August/004023.html Can anybody tell me why it cant be repaired or how we should manage the Map feature list instead to avoid a tagging chaos? :) voting is not the appropriate wording. votes imply a list of voters and perhaps a quorum. Some votes have been adopted althought only 4 or 5 people gave their opinion. Also votes can be faked (which was the case in some very controversial proposals). If a voter disagree with the proposal, he should explain why. If good arguments are coming on the table, then a new cycle of discussion should be restarted. Also a vote result is never definitive. But searching a consensus or minimum agreements (also discussions can avoid duplicates) is always good. And the wiki is where discussions can happen (but not only) and where the final consensus (if any) has to be documented. Sometimes we also have to admit that no consensus is possible and let the community the choice. A review based on statistics is possible later (e.g. the noname proposal). The problem is that sometimes the opinions are quite opposed by only few actors and nobody has an idea of what the 'silent majority' is thinking. In this case, seeing what others are thinking on the wiki can be interresting. But I proposed a long time ago to rename the whole process as an 'opinion poll' and not a 'vote' for the reasons explained above. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 1:32 AM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.com wrote: flow seems relevant information only for boat and navigation, i suppose boat can't go into this kind of waterway... Actually flow is primarily relevant for, well, flow. Where will the chemicals on your lawn end up when it rains? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/31 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: Oops it's not lost. It's on the waterway=river and waterway=stream wiki pages. So how do you specify that (a) you mapped a waterway but don't know the direction of flow, (b) it's a stagnant channel with no real flow, or (c) it's an artificial drainage canal with flow changing based on rainfall and opening or closing of gates? a) you will add a note or FIXME to express this to the following mapper. At least you have a 50% chance that it is already right. b) smell=awful ;-) ? This is not a waterway but a lake or swamp or s.th. similar c) I am not familiar to artificial canals without inclination, but maybe the do exist. Anyway they would be a special case which would merit it's own special subtag to express this. I'd consider this a really rare situation though, which I had never to deal with in my mapping. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Is there any reason why you discuss this tag using this title? This is anoying cause my filter dont match. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/31 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: Is there any reason why you discuss this tag using this title? This is anoying cause my filter dont match. Is there any reason you don't quote any text so that we would know what you're talking about? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/29 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: culvert=yes is ambiguous: does it refer to the object on top or underneath? our tags refer to the object they are associated with. Simple like that, isn't it? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 5:47 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/8/29 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: culvert=yes is ambiguous: does it refer to the object on top or underneath? our tags refer to the object they are associated with. Simple like that, isn't it? OK, so if you have culvert=yes on a short section of way, does that mean it goes through the structure or over it? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/30 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 5:47 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/8/29 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: culvert=yes is ambiguous: does it refer to the object on top or underneath? our tags refer to the object they are associated with. Simple like that, isn't it? OK, so if you have culvert=yes on a short section of way, does that mean it goes through the structure or over it? Can you show me the example? I don't understand structure and I would like to know, which kind of way it is (what are the other tags?). Over and under are modelled by layer-tags in OSM. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/30 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 9:08 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Can you show me the example? I don't understand structure and I would like to know, which kind of way it is (what are the other tags?). http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/48598384 If this was tagged culvert=yes rather than bridge=culvert, it wouldn't be clear whether it's a bridge or tunnel. That's true, but IMHO the wrong way is tagged there: the culvert should go on the waterway, i.e. where it is. I also saw another strange thing there: your waterways are tagged oneway=yes. What does that mean? Is this for boat-traffic? Do the boats pass the culvert? According to the wiki oneway is used for access-restrictions, i.e. it is a legal tag, not a physical one. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 12:38 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/8/30 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/48598384 If this was tagged culvert=yes rather than bridge=culvert, it wouldn't be clear whether it's a bridge or tunnel. That's true, but IMHO the wrong way is tagged there: the culvert should go on the waterway, i.e. where it is. What do you mean by where it is? The culvert is the structure that carries the road over the waterway. I also saw another strange thing there: your waterways are tagged oneway=yes. What does that mean? Is this for boat-traffic? Do the boats pass the culvert? According to the wiki oneway is used for access-restrictions, i.e. it is a legal tag, not a physical one. How else would you tag water flow? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Ok this seem to be a problem but again, is this related in some way with 'Non proposed features'? Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: That's true, but IMHO the wrong way is tagged there: the culvert should go on the waterway, i.e. where it is. What do you mean by where it is? The culvert is the structure that carries the road over the waterway. I'm not sure i have understand, but (for me) a culvert can't carries a road over ; a culvert is a kind of tube that goes under a structure to allow water to go throught a roadrail... Wikipedia for example tell : A culvert is a device used to channel water. It may be used to allow water to pass underneath a road, railway, or embankment for example. Culverts can be made of many different materials; steel, polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and concrete are the most common. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culvert What you describ a structure that carry the road over is a bridge for me. I also saw another strange thing there: your waterways are tagged oneway=yes. What does that mean? Is this for boat-traffic? Do the boats pass the culvert? According to the wiki oneway is used for access-restrictions, i.e. it is a legal tag, not a physical one. How else would you tag water flow? Water flow is the way direction (the direction it has been drawn, if opposite, reverse the way). oneway=yes do not indicate any direction just that there is only one direction possible, the direction is indicate by the direction of the original drawing. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driver Direction of the way should be downstream. oneway tag is design to indicat access restriction. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Oneway -- Pierre-Alain Dorange ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:35 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.comwrote: I'm not sure i have understand, but (for me) a culvert can't carries a road over ; a culvert is a kind of tube that goes under a structure to allow water to go throught a roadrail... Wikipedia for example tell : A culvert is a device used to channel water. It may be used to allow water to pass underneath a road, railway, or embankment for example. Culverts can be made of many different materials; steel, polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and concrete are the most common. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culvert And if you go ahead with this article: When boxes or pipes are placed side-by-side to create a width of greater than twenty feet, the culvert is defined as a bridge in the United States Some examples: http://www.horizontalholes.com/images/Box_Culvert_Job_09.jpg http://rscallahan.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/May242006011.jpg Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Monday 30 August 2010 19:19:21 Nathan Edgars II wrote: How else would you tag water flow? Somewhere, probably lost in the depths of time, it was agreed that waterflow is modeled by the direction of the waterway way without a oneway tag. Oops it's not lost. It's on the waterway=river and waterway=stream wiki pages. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On 08/30/2010 03:35 PM, Pierre-Alain Dorange wrote: Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: That's true, but IMHO the wrong way is tagged there: the culvert should go on the waterway, i.e. where it is. What do you mean by where it is? The culvert is the structure that carries the road over the waterway. I'm not sure i have understand, but (for me) a culvert can't carries a road over ; a culvert is a kind of tube that goes under a structure to allow water to go throught a roadrail... Wikipedia for example tell : A culvert is a device used to channel water. It may be used to allow water to pass underneath a road, railway, or embankment for example. Culverts can be made of many different materials; steel, polyvinyl chloride (PVC) and concrete are the most common. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culvert What you describ a structure that carry the road over is a bridge for me. I also saw another strange thing there: your waterways are tagged oneway=yes. What does that mean? Is this for boat-traffic? Do the boats pass the culvert? According to the wiki oneway is used for access-restrictions, i.e. it is a legal tag, not a physical one. How else would you tag water flow? Water flow is the way direction (the direction it has been drawn, if opposite, reverse the way). oneway=yes do not indicate any direction just that there is only one direction possible, the direction is indicate by the direction of the original drawing. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driver Direction of the way should be downstream. oneway tag is design to indicat access restriction. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Oneway Does direction of the original drawing mean that the nodes should be marked from upstream to downstream? If not, how do you specify the direction of a waterway when mapping it? Also, how do you reverse a way? The wiki page for the direction key only gives the examples of clockwise vs. counterclockwise for a round-about, and up/down for steps. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On 8/30/10 6:49 PM, Stephen Hope wrote: On 31 August 2010 08:36, John F. Eldredgej...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Also, how do you reverse a way? In JOSM, you just use Reverse way. Don't know about potlatch, but it would have to be there somewhere, or you can't get one way streets to work properly. there's a little arrow in a circle icon on the bottom left side in potlatch 1.whatever, click on it to reverse the currently selected way. the arrow generally indicates which way the selected way points, and reverses itself when clicked. note that with ways such as 270 degree exit/entrance ramps, the arrow kind of compromises on the mid way direction. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Monday 30 August 2010 19:19:21 Nathan Edgars II wrote: How else would you tag water flow? Somewhere, probably lost in the depths of time, it was agreed that waterflow is modeled by the direction of the waterway way without a oneway tag. Oops it's not lost. It's on the waterway=river and waterway=stream wiki pages. So how do you specify that (a) you mapped a waterway but don't know the direction of flow, (b) it's a stagnant channel with no real flow, or (c) it's an artificial drainage canal with flow changing based on rainfall and opening or closing of gates? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On 30/08/2010 21:48, Pieren wrote: And if you go ahead with this article: When boxes or pipes are placed side-by-side to create a width of greater than twenty feet, the culvert is defined as a bridge in the United States And if you go on reading it says This is a requirement of the federal bridge inspection standards and ensures that the culvert is inspected on a regular basis^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culvert#cite_note-0 . So in this case doesn't mean is a bridge but the bit over the top is defined legally as a bridge so that it has to be inspected to make sure that it doesn't collapse in the same way that bridges have to be. For info, Chambers (a paper dictionary - remember them?) defines it as follows: 'culvert, noun. an arched channel for carrying water beneath a road, railway, etc. [Perhaps from French couler to flow - Latin colare.]' Naturally, this is a British English definition - it doesn't mean that Americans using the word for any part of the engineering used to send water under and something else over are wrong; they're just speaking a different language to me. The use of British English (actually an England-and-Wales only dialect as far as highway types go) in OSM is a historical accident, but it's what we've got, and redefining tag use based on another dialect or a mixture is likely to just cause a mess. Personally I wouldn't object if someone started mapping man-made water features in Dutch (they have more words for them) provided that it was clear what they meant! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
I would expect that case (c) would still have the water flowing downhill. Even if you have a series of pumps, water in the sections between the pumps will still flow downhill, not uphill. About the only time I would expect any counterflow would be if water were to be added to a given section rapidly enough that its surface level was temporarily higher than in the upstream section, making that a downhill flow also. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features From :mailto:nerou...@gmail.com Date :Mon Aug 30 20:44:53 America/Chicago 2010 On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Monday 30 August 2010 19:19:21 Nathan Edgars II wrote: How else would you tag water flow? Somewhere, probably lost in the depths of time, it was agreed that waterflow is modeled by the direction of the waterway way without a oneway tag. Oops it's not lost. It's on the waterway=river and waterway=stream wiki pages. So how do you specify that (a) you mapped a waterway but don't know the direction of flow, (b) it's a stagnant channel with no real flow, or (c) it's an artificial drainage canal with flow changing based on rainfall and opening or closing of gates? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:10 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features From :mailto:nerou...@gmail.com Date :Mon Aug 30 20:44:53 America/Chicago 2010 So how do you specify that (a) you mapped a waterway but don't know the direction of flow, (b) it's a stagnant channel with no real flow, or (c) it's an artificial drainage canal with flow changing based on rainfall and opening or closing of gates? I would expect that case (c) would still have the water flowing downhill. Even if you have a series of pumps, water in the sections between the pumps will still flow downhill, not uphill. About the only time I would expect any counterflow would be if water were to be added to a given section rapidly enough that its surface level was temporarily higher than in the upstream section, making that a downhill flow also. Depends. The canals may be flat (or nearly so, such that one can't know which way is downhill) and managed by pumps. I believe this is common in reclaimed swamp lands. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
If you procedd posting culvert related mails under this general topic nodoby will be able to find them in the future. So please return to the right discussion topic. Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/28 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: You write in the wiki that it is unable to repair it and spot on a working group. Just so we're clear, I mean the current prescribed method of requiring people to vote on proposals is broken, there is thousands of contributors and most proposals don't get more than a dozen votes if they are lucky, this doesn't seem to be working to me no. I think this will be a nice idea even if it might result in a discussion if this centralisation might gain to much power even if they are only janitors. Also I didn't come up with the idea of a working group or a committee to evaluate proposals, but others are completely against this idea as well, however the current suggestion of a do-ocracy seems doomed to end in endless/pointless disputes as well, take a look at the most recent pointless thread over culverts. On the surface this seems a complete waste of time to spend hours argumenting over something so simple, concrete or similar pipes in the ground or under road ways that carry water, yet it went on for days because of slight differences of opinion, and because there is no form of mediation in place there was no end result (that I saw) and now there is going to be 2 groups of thought that go off and do their own thing and be incompatible with each other, how is that actually useful at all? From what I'm told this issue isn't unique to OSM, many different government/professional bodies have been having similar debates for decades. Should this group be part of the foundation? What tools will they need? Can we modify the wiki to be a nicer tool? The wiki should at most be used to document decisions or outcomes or usages, it is a very poor way to discuss things, although the mailing list isn't always useful either. While face to face meetings might sort things out with professional bodies, that isn't practical for volunteers to keep funding out of their own pockets. Teleconferences usually won't help either, languages and even just accents can complicate matters and that's before you even start dealing with time zones. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Perhaps all contributors should be required to vote one way or the other. It should not be an option, and failure to do so after agreeing to such, should have penalty/consequence(like OSMF having right to then convert it to ODbL). Eric Jarvies On Aug 28, 2010, at 11:59 PM, John Smith wrote: 2010/8/28 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: You write in the wiki that it is unable to repair it and spot on a working group. Just so we're clear, I mean the current prescribed method of requiring people to vote on proposals is broken, there is thousands of contributors and most proposals don't get more than a dozen votes if they are lucky, this doesn't seem to be working to me no. I think this will be a nice idea even if it might result in a discussion if this centralisation might gain to much power even if they are only janitors. Also I didn't come up with the idea of a working group or a committee to evaluate proposals, but others are completely against this idea as well, however the current suggestion of a do-ocracy seems doomed to end in endless/pointless disputes as well, take a look at the most recent pointless thread over culverts. On the surface this seems a complete waste of time to spend hours argumenting over something so simple, concrete or similar pipes in the ground or under road ways that carry water, yet it went on for days because of slight differences of opinion, and because there is no form of mediation in place there was no end result (that I saw) and now there is going to be 2 groups of thought that go off and do their own thing and be incompatible with each other, how is that actually useful at all? From what I'm told this issue isn't unique to OSM, many different government/professional bodies have been having similar debates for decades. Should this group be part of the foundation? What tools will they need? Can we modify the wiki to be a nicer tool? The wiki should at most be used to document decisions or outcomes or usages, it is a very poor way to discuss things, although the mailing list isn't always useful either. While face to face meetings might sort things out with professional bodies, that isn't practical for volunteers to keep funding out of their own pockets. Teleconferences usually won't help either, languages and even just accents can complicate matters and that's before you even start dealing with time zones. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On 29 August 2010 16:34, Eric Jarvies e...@csl.com.mx wrote: Perhaps all contributors should be required to vote one way or the other. It should not be an option, and failure to do so after agreeing to such, should have penalty/consequence(like OSMF having right to then convert it to ODbL). So are you suggesting we add it into the main OSM interface? Should there be a time limit on such votes? Should there be a minimum time and/or amount of mapping a person has to have completed before they start to be asked about new map features? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Sunday 29 August 2010 07:59:51 John Smith wrote: however the current suggestion of a do-ocracy seems doomed to end in endless/pointless disputes as well, take a look at the most recent pointless thread over culverts. That is actually not an example of the do-ocracy way. Because the people that do (those who tagged culverts) had pretty much united behind culvert=yes. Then we got the people who like pointless discussions that wanted to change something they were not even mapping. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On 29 August 2010 18:40, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: That is actually not an example of the do-ocracy way. Because the people that do (those who tagged culverts) had pretty much united behind culvert=yes. It might work fine in this case, however if it's a bad idea, for what ever reason, and it needs to be changed in future, it's almost impossible at present. So the point at which tags are created is the only point in general to have these discussions to make sure it doesn't need to be changed in future. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Sunday 29 August 2010 10:45:21 John Smith wrote: On 29 August 2010 18:40, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: That is actually not an example of the do-ocracy way. Because the people that do (those who tagged culverts) had pretty much united behind culvert=yes. It might work fine in this case, however if it's a bad idea, for what ever reason, and it needs to be changed in future, it's almost impossible at present. So the point at which tags are created is the only point in general to have these discussions to make sure it doesn't need to be changed in future. Then maybe you should stop sabotaging these discussions. Because the way you (and a select few other people) are currently having these discussions is utterly off-putting to a lot of other people. By scarring/irritating so many people away you have effectively broken the tagging mailinglist. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Sunday 29 August 2010 07:59:51 John Smith wrote: however the current suggestion of a do-ocracy seems doomed to end in endless/pointless disputes as well, take a look at the most recent pointless thread over culverts. That is actually not an example of the do-ocracy way. Because the people that do (those who tagged culverts) had pretty much united behind culvert=yes. culvert=yes is ambiguous: does it refer to the object on top or underneath? (Distinguishing based on whether it's water or not doesn't work; you could have a road under a canal.) Then we got the people who like pointless discussions that wanted to change something they were not even mapping. I've used bridge=culvert and tunnel=culvert since long before the recent discussion. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Sunday 29 August 2010 11:27:03 Nathan Edgars II wrote: Then we got the people who like pointless discussions that wanted to change something they were not even mapping. I've used bridge=culvert and tunnel=culvert since long before the recent discussion. You are user NE2 not? Then conveniently for you all the tunnel=culvert you have tagged in the past are edited by someoneelse in the mean time, because there was no trace of anything last edited by NE2 in the file I dowloaded from osmxapi a few days ago. Or maybe you didn't tag tunnel=culvert at all? -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Sunday 29 August 2010 11:27:03 Nathan Edgars II wrote: Then we got the people who like pointless discussions that wanted to change something they were not even mapping. I've used bridge=culvert and tunnel=culvert since long before the recent discussion. You are user NE2 not? Then conveniently for you all the tunnel=culvert you have tagged in the past are edited by someoneelse in the mean time, because there was no trace of anything last edited by NE2 in the file I dowloaded from osmxapi a few days ago. Or maybe you didn't tag tunnel=culvert at all? I probably used tunnel=yes instead. But had I desired to tag it as a culvert, I'd have used tunnel=culvert, not the ambiguous culvert=yes. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
I not sure if this has anything todo more with proposed features... Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/28 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: How can we improve this process? Didn't you already ask this on one of the wiki pages? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Yes in some way but I pointed on thinks that are in my opinion the problem. There might be others that I don't see, right? You write in the wiki that it is unable to repair it and spot on a working group. I think this will be a nice idea even if it might result in a discussion if this centralisation might gain to much power even if they are only janitors. Should this group be part of the foundation? What tools will they need? Can we modify the wiki to be a nicer tool? Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
I added an hint on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:No_proposal explaining why a page had been labeled as no proposal. Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On 17/08/2010, at 2:09 AM, Matthias Meißer wrote: Yes soft moderation by the community but therefore the community needs some central space and some guidelines. You already see the lack of voters, just cause it's to decentral communication atm. It's also because some people (myself included) actively dislike voting in it's current form, and don't pay attention to it. The last time I added something to the wiki, I looked to see if something was already there describing how to tag the thing in question, and after finding there wasn't I create a page documenting what I did. I didn't put it under Proposed because I wasn't proposing anything and certainly didn't want to do any of that stupid voting thing, just documenting how I used it in case someone else was interested. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
1. So what is your idea? What do you think of how it can be improved? 2. Yes of course, otherwise I wouldn't ask here ;) But once again, this is not a good/bad feature discussion. It's just the question of new and may be problematic features should be taken back to /proposed for further discussion 3 Yes a team of moderators would be fine. But everybody that does this task might be accused to be unfair, nagging,...and to supress freedom.(again we are not talking about final tagging, this is everyones personal decission, just a 'well ok we think the idea is wellformed'). This is funny because nobody accused the editor devs to beeing some kind of anti-freedom even if they have to take similar choices ;) Might it be true that there is gap between the people that are wiki centered and this ones on the mailinglists? Thats bad that are similar tolls but with different pros/cons. :( Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Cartinus wrote: Concluding less than six hours after your initial post to this mailinglist that nobody has a problem with what you propose is: youthfull exuberance ? impatience ? It is certainly is not the way to go. 6 hours isn't one rotation of the earth, and certainly is less than my sleep hours and even smaller than my working hours. 6 hours is not enough time for me to get round to reading the mail ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On 16/08/2010 16:31, Matthias Meißer wrote: Hi everybody, as I noted in my diary, the forums,... http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/!i!/diary/11477 I would like to improve the features page and other wiki pages around. Therefore I asked at the talk page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features#Cleanup_Request I checked the current german map feature list and noticed a lot few features and key that are new but non proposed. I beg the authors to move them out of the list back to the proposed features. I create a template to label them http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features#Non_proposed_features Hope nobody is angry, of course everybody can tag as he like but IMHO the feature list needs some kind of soft moderation: 1. it is for the most people 'the reference' esp. newbies 2. the community should have the right to talk about new ideas 3. Proposals seem to be the only way to avoid conflicts and get good models that work fine worldwide. Of course the proposal process is far away from beeing perfect, looks a little bit like master control, makes it ardous to introduce new features. But on the other hand we get a good overview whats new, have time to think about ideas and involve the community in a creative way instead of showing something final. Especially complete new Keys like OFFICE=* or EMERGENCY=* should be discussed to show up where their items start and end and if there might be better solutions. So what do you think? +1 ! regards Matthias -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Well, this idea is not to telling you do's and dont's, it's just to manage ideas. IMHO the current process lacks a few details that are mentioned (and can be discussed by everyone here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features#Cleanup_Request As some of you might noted with the weekly newsletter the things will become better. And I'm pretty sure, that creating a proposal will be more enjoyfull if there are more people that pay attention on it (before vote). Is there any kind of guardian group or management team for the proposal process? (No Masters, just janitors) I think the proposed page should be promoted as garage or incubator and let the people understand that it is on all to expend and finalise the single ideas. I would like to move the corresponding tags back to /Proposal so everybody that searches can find them. I'm not sure that to do with emergency, that looks well but seem to reintroduce some objects (e.g. HIGHWAY=EMERGENCY_ACCESS_POINT). Or even with OFFICE=*, any ideas? Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Am 16. August 2010 16:31 schrieb Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: I checked the current german map feature list and noticed a lot few features and key that are new but non proposed. I beg the authors to move them out of the list back to the proposed features. this might not in all cases be justified. Actually it isn't helpful if established features are taken back to proposed status for formal criteria. ... but IMHO the feature list needs some kind of soft moderation: which is already executed by the comunity. In unclear cases the disputed features will usually pop up on the mailing lists for further discussion. 1. it is for the most people 'the reference' esp. newbies 2. the community should have the right to talk about new ideas +1 3. Proposals seem to be the only way to avoid conflicts and get good models that work fine worldwide. I'm not so sure about this. I think many features just get somehow into the system and get documented in the wiki later when they are already widely in use. Especially complete new Keys like OFFICE=* or EMERGENCY=* should be discussed to show up where their items start and end and if there might be better solutions. I think this is currently in discussion on the lists for emergency. Office was already discussed quite a bit in the past months. AFAIK it is not disputed. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Well I'm not talking about undoing very common features but about a few new ones that seemed to be a bad design (even if I like the idea to get a feature e.g. for OFFICE=*). For fine tuning is the /Proposed list, right? Yes soft moderation by the community but therefore the community needs some central space and some guidelines. You already see the lack of voters, just cause it's to decentral communication atm. How should anybody/a newbie new that there are still design problems with feature XYZ? :) Later documentation is ok cause they approved their usage already. But introducing new ideas using the map features list is not a good idea in my opinion. Thats why nobody knows that there are new features, nobody talked about it, nobody made a review :( Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Am 16. August 2010 18:09 schrieb Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: central space and some guidelines. You already see the lack of voters, just cause it's to decentral communication atm. RFC and voting start are announced on talk-list and often on some local lists as well. I fear that the lack of voting contribution is due to few interest. Not even a vote on the definition of our main tag (highway) let to more than 130 votes (and not so few voters wrote stuff like abstain veto Nggh I just got out and map instead of wasting time wikifidling or voting on pointless things etc.) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/17 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: opinion. Thats why nobody knows that there are new features, nobody talked about it, nobody made a review :( But they do get talked about, take for example this thread where someone added a shop that no one seems to agree with: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2010-August/003504.html Someone will clean up this shortly after enough time has passed. As for emergency, there was A LOT of discussion on both the tagging list and the main talk list, people generally notice. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
But OSM is more than just the major lists (see people like me that sign on/off lists to avoid to much mails). As I said it would be a good idea to feature our proposal incubator a little bit more ;) I'm pretty sure if the users have no Push but a Pop media (e.g. the weekly newsletters) they would be interested in co-designing some new features. I guess it's a little bit a problem between generations (ML vs. RSS/Forums/...). I already asked if we should design a template to make sure that people leaf a useful comment? regards Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/17 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: But OSM is more than just the major lists (see people like me that sign on/off lists to avoid to much mails). As I said it would be a good idea to feature our proposal incubator a little bit more ;) I'm pretty sure if the users have no Push but a Pop media (e.g. the weekly newsletters) they would be interested in co-designing some new features. I guess it's a little bit a problem between generations (ML vs. RSS/Forums/...). The problem with using the wiki is it is a very poor medium to try and communicate complex topics... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Well ok might be possbile but for that reason there are other channels e.g. forums, MLs that have their own pros and cons. So nobody really has a problem with refactoring /Proposed, right? If so it would be nice if you review the upcoming changes. But this will take time cause I'm involved in other projects, too. good night Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
2010/8/17 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: Well ok might be possbile but for that reason there are other channels e.g. forums, MLs that have their own pros and cons. There is software that can show mailing list posts in the same way as forums, the forums are only used by a minority of people, most people seem to use the mailing lists. So nobody really has a problem with refactoring /Proposed, right? If so it would be nice if you review the upcoming changes. But this will take time cause I'm involved in other projects, too. You seemed to have ignored the existing comments, most seemed indifferent to the changes or disagreed. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
On Monday 16 August 2010 22:07:07 Matthias Meißer wrote: So nobody really has a problem with refactoring /Proposed, right? Yes, many people will have a problem with that. The people actually voting on the wiki are a very small group. Pushing tags already documented and in use back into the proposal process will upset a significant number of people. People subscribing to this mailinglist (and particularly actively contributing to) this mailing list are a minority of the mappers too. Tagging discussions got moved from the talk list to this list because most people didn't want to see the long winded discussions. Concluding less than six hours after your initial post to this mailinglist that nobody has a problem with what you propose is: youthfull exuberance ? impatience ? It is certainly is not the way to go. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Sry @all, was my mistake, what I tried to say is that I will improve the /proposed page (and only this one). So restyling, splitting text but nothing on the features itself, is this ok? Yes you can read MLs in a forum or RSS like way, but mostly you have to be member of the mailinglist to participate. Indeed I believe that the mass doesn't listen to ML, forums, or anything else ;) But I doesn't want to talk about this communication channel thing to much Well please pay attention that the whole discussion doesn't get to emotional. Think about I'm new to this list and doesn't want to tell you how the things work...I just want to show you show you my suggestion and asking you for advice. I participate like the most of us cause I try to improve OSM and not to hurt somebody ;) regards Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Non Proposed Features
Hi everybody, as I noted in my diary, the forums,... http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/!i!/diary/11477 I would like to improve the features page and other wiki pages around. Therefore I asked at the talk page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features#Cleanup_Request I checked the current german map feature list and noticed a lot few features and key that are new but non proposed. I beg the authors to move them out of the list back to the proposed features. I create a template to label them http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features#Non_proposed_features Hope nobody is angry, of course everybody can tag as he like but IMHO the feature list needs some kind of soft moderation: 1. it is for the most people 'the reference' esp. newbies 2. the community should have the right to talk about new ideas 3. Proposals seem to be the only way to avoid conflicts and get good models that work fine worldwide. Of course the proposal process is far away from beeing perfect, looks a little bit like master control, makes it ardous to introduce new that is the complete problem, the proposal process is imperfect and occurs in two places, although only the wiki is noted as the place on the wiki before you decide to move everything around on the wiki 1. rewrite the proposals process closer to reality and get agreement 2. decide with others, not by yourself what is approved and not approved 3. long ago a committee was suggested to get this sort of thing organised and howled down by the groups who like free tagging and free documentation. Those who liked consensus were annoyed by the incredibly small number of wiki voters who approved and disapproved tags ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
