Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
and bonus question, if the model before was backrest=yes, what about these: https://www.instantstreetview.com/@41.860842,12.498511,120.32h,-12.44p,2.08z ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
2018-04-30 15:37 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis: > > an example: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/ixqzpTVm4e40cEgUJSGlrw to me this is a group of chairs, but according to the current wiki definition, it could probably be mapped as amenity=bench. As we already are in the bikesheds of bench mapping, what do you say about this: https://ilyabirman.net/world/rome/i/IMG_8643.jpg these are "seating" possibilities on Roman bus stops, too narrow to really sit, and obviously (why they probably put them) to sleep. Is there a minimum "depth" we should require for seating? What about a tense wire, is that still a bench? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoeferwrote: > > > 2018-04-30 12:53 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis : >> >> This is probably one of those objects mapped as 1-person benches: >> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Zg9gXzS-fC_ZYR3CUNZTMA >> Typically there are 3 or 4 of those attached to one another, but here >> only 1 is used. > > > > > IMHO no bench there. Not sure if several of them attached could be called a > bench, or more likely a row of chairs. > an example: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/ixqzpTVm4e40cEgUJSGlrw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
2018-04-30 12:53 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis: > This is probably one of those objects mapped as 1-person benches: > https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Zg9gXzS-fC_ZYR3CUNZTMA > Typically there are 3 or 4 of those attached to one another, but here > only 1 is used. > IMHO no bench there. Not sure if several of them attached could be called a bench, or more likely a row of chairs. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
This is probably one of those objects mapped as 1-person benches: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Zg9gXzS-fC_ZYR3CUNZTMA Typically there are 3 or 4 of those attached to one another, but here only 1 is used. m. On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Martin Koppenhoeferwrote: > > > 2018-04-30 12:27 GMT+02:00 : >> >> There are a decent number of one seat benches already mapped: >> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ynN >> >> > > > > there are 1962 nodes with this invalid combination, out of 876 820 benches > in total. It is normal that some people try to squeeze the round into the > square and don't care for the definition. Probably most are tagging for the > renderer... > > Cheers, > Martin > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
2018-04-30 12:27 GMT+02:00: > There are a decent number of one seat benches already mapped: > https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ynN > > > there are 1962 nodes with this invalid combination, out of 876 820 benches in total. It is normal that some people try to squeeze the round into the square and don't care for the definition. Probably most are tagging for the renderer... Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
sorry, correction: ...are _not_ benches according to OSM standards... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
2018-04-30 12:19 GMT+02:00: > Looking at the specified dimensions, that thing is 1m wide (which I assume > is the outside dimension, so make it maybe 90cm available to sit in > between). > you have posted 4 "benches", and only one has arm rests which might make it unsuitable for 2 people to sit on. Generally, an adult needs about 50cm to sit (straight) and 60cm to sit comfortable, so if we don't want to sit uncomfortable, these benches are amenity=bench according to OSM standards. You can always make a proposal for voting on a wiki change. It wasn't me putting the definition for benches there, but wrt the number of persons I agree with it. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
On 29/04/2018 22:22, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: Maybe sun lounge would be a better choice? http://streetfurniture.com/au/dev/product/mall-sun-lounge/ Not lounge! That usage may result from a confusion between the expression 'chaise longue' and the word 'lounge'. A lounge is a room. This item of furniture is perhaps a lounger, but not a lounge. -- Steve --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
There are a decent number of one seat benches already mapped: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ynN From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018 20:16 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs 2018-04-30 12:03 GMT+02:00 <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au <mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> >: A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think… https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home-elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/17-stories-madhav-one-seat-bench-stss5585.html https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/andover-mills-delano-one-seat-bench-andv3138.html https://www.wayfair.com/commercial/pdp/sunpan-modern-ikon-darby-one-seat-bench-snpn4130.html …. by their name (one seat bench), those aren't benches according to the OSM definition, but looking their actual dimensions (slightly more than 1m wide) I would say you could seat 2 europeans on these benches ;-) Please also note that we are discussing amenity=bench, i.e. a public piece of furniture, not things someone could set up in her private space. In the public space, one seat benches are not common at all, there are either chairs or multiperson benches. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
Looking at the specified dimensions, that thing is 1m wide (which I assume is the outside dimension, so make it maybe 90cm available to sit in between). I don’t think 2 average adults that aren’t in the habit of swapping body fluids are going to feel very comfortable occupying it together. From: Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018 20:08 To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs On 30/04/2018 11:03, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au <mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> wrote: A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think… https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home-elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html That's clearly for someone whose "seat" is even wider than mine :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
2018-04-30 12:03 GMT+02:00: > A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think… > > > > https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home- > elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html > > https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/17-stories-madhav-one-seat-bench- > stss5585.html > > https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/andover-mills-delano-one-seat-bench- > andv3138.html > > https://www.wayfair.com/commercial/pdp/sunpan-modern- > ikon-darby-one-seat-bench-snpn4130.html > > …. > by their name (one seat bench), those aren't benches according to the OSM definition, but looking their actual dimensions (slightly more than 1m wide) I would say you could seat 2 europeans on these benches ;-) Please also note that we are discussing amenity=bench, i.e. a public piece of furniture, not things someone could set up in her private space. In the public space, one seat benches are not common at all, there are either chairs or multiperson benches. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
On 30/04/2018 11:03, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote: A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think… https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home-elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html That's clearly for someone whose "seat" is even wider than mine :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
In my opinion, (sun)loungers are something different form benches, as they are designed to lie on, not to sit on. Besides, tagging them amenity=bench + bench:type=lounger would mean we need another bench:type for real benches. Instead, I suggest amenity=lounger. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think… https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home-elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/17-stories-madhav-one-seat-bench-stss5585.html https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/andover-mills-delano-one-seat-bench-andv3138.html https://www.wayfair.com/commercial/pdp/sunpan-modern-ikon-darby-one-seat-bench-snpn4130.html …. From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018 19:06 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs 2018-04-30 10:40 GMT+02:00 <osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au <mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> >: That definition seems overly strict. There is a tag to define how many places a bench has. And I don't think "1" is an invalid value for that... the wiki suggests "1" would indeed be an invalid value for a bench capacity, as would be "0" for instance. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a "bench" to be able to accomodate more than one person, otherwise the thing would be called "chair" or maybe "throne". Chairs could have subclasses like armchair, easy_chair, cantilever_chair, but a bench wouldn't fit into a chair category, and vice versa, a chair isn't fitting in the bench category. FWIW, although chairs don't fit into it, I believe the bench definition is still overly inclusive, as it seems to include any place for more than one person to sit. I would have preferred to include the term "long seat" to make it clear it is about an intentionally set up place. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
2018-04-30 10:40 GMT+02:00: > That definition seems overly strict. There is a tag to define how many > places a bench has. And I don't think "1" is an invalid value for that... the wiki suggests "1" would indeed be an invalid value for a bench capacity, as would be "0" for instance. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a "bench" to be able to accomodate more than one person, otherwise the thing would be called "chair" or maybe "throne". Chairs could have subclasses like armchair, easy_chair, cantilever_chair, but a bench wouldn't fit into a chair category, and vice versa, a chair isn't fitting in the bench category. FWIW, although chairs don't fit into it, I believe the bench definition is still overly inclusive, as it seems to include any place for more than one person to sit. I would have preferred to include the term "long seat" to make it clear it is about an intentionally set up place. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
That definition seems overly strict. There is a tag to define how many places a bench has. And I don't think "1" is an invalid value for that... > -Original Message- > From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com> > Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018 18:33 > To: Yves <yve...@gmail.com> > Cc: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools > <tagging@openstreetmap.org> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs > > > > sent from a phone > > > On 30. Apr 2018, at 10:20, Yves <yve...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > They however serve a purpose very similar to 'public benches', so > I'd be inclined to say they are a kind of bench. > > No need to follow an exact dictionary definition > > > indeed I was writing about the wiki definition, not the dictionary > definition. “A place for people to sit; allows room for several > people.” > > The chairs on the picture are designed for one person, not several. > > Cheers, > Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
sent from a phone > On 30. Apr 2018, at 10:20, Yveswrote: > > They however serve a purpose very similar to 'public benches', so I'd be > inclined to say they are a kind of bench. > No need to follow an exact dictionary definition indeed I was writing about the wiki definition, not the dictionary definition. “A place for people to sit; allows room for several people.” The chairs on the picture are designed for one person, not several. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
They however serve a purpose very similar to 'public benches', so I'd be inclined to say they are a kind of bench. No need to follow an exact dictionary definition, here a path is a 'highway': tags are tags, not words. Le 30 avril 2018 09:00:36 GMT+02:00, Martin Koppenhoefera écrit : > > >sent from a phone > >> On 30. Apr 2018, at 07:49, Yves wrote: >> >> Amenity=bench with a subtag seems a good idea for data consumers. > > >if these aren’t benches it can’t be solved with a subtag. > >cheers, >Martin >___ >Tagging mailing list >Tagging@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Yves___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
sent from a phone > On 30. Apr 2018, at 07:49, Yveswrote: > > Amenity=bench with a subtag seems a good idea for data consumers. if these aren’t benches it can’t be solved with a subtag. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
Amenity=bench with a subtag seems a good idea for data consumers. Yves Le 29 avril 2018 23:47:25 GMT+02:00, Paul Allena écrit : >On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick > >wrote: > >> >> >> >> On 29 April 2018 at 20:36, Paul Allen wrote: >> >> >>> I think an argument can be made for not calling them benches. I >just >>> think they shouldn't be called deckchairs. >>> >>> >> Daybeds? http://www.timbersteel.com.au/day_bed_maureen_oiled__9_.jpg >> > >That image looks like a fancy bench to me. And the wikipedia >definition of >a daybed doesn't remotely match >the image in the original post: daybeds are usually sprung, have a >mattress >and outdoor ones usually have >a roof-like structure to keep the rain off. > > >> Maybe sun lounge would be a better choice? >http://streetfurniture.com/au/ >> dev/product/mall-sun-lounge/ >> > >In British English a sun loung is a sunroom or solarium with natural >sunlight. > >Sunlounger is closer, but the wikipedia article for that says they're >adjustable. > >Which reminds me, you probably can't expect the standard OSM >renderer/carto >to render it >differently (perhaps not even recognize it) going by what happened >recently >when somebody >asked if benches with backrests could be rendered slightly differently >(and >even provided >a suitable icon for it). I didn't consider the reasons given for >rejecting >the request were >logical, valid, rational or even courteous. But if benches with >backrests >aren't going to be >treated differently I doubt these things (if we can figure out what to >call >them) will be >either. > >-- >Paul Yves___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrickwrote: > > > > On 29 April 2018 at 20:36, Paul Allen wrote: > > >> I think an argument can be made for not calling them benches. I just >> think they shouldn't be called deckchairs. >> >> > Daybeds? http://www.timbersteel.com.au/day_bed_maureen_oiled__9_.jpg > That image looks like a fancy bench to me. And the wikipedia definition of a daybed doesn't remotely match the image in the original post: daybeds are usually sprung, have a mattress and outdoor ones usually have a roof-like structure to keep the rain off. > Maybe sun lounge would be a better choice? http://streetfurniture.com/au/ > dev/product/mall-sun-lounge/ > In British English a sun loung is a sunroom or solarium with natural sunlight. Sunlounger is closer, but the wikipedia article for that says they're adjustable. Which reminds me, you probably can't expect the standard OSM renderer/carto to render it differently (perhaps not even recognize it) going by what happened recently when somebody asked if benches with backrests could be rendered slightly differently (and even provided a suitable icon for it). I didn't consider the reasons given for rejecting the request were logical, valid, rational or even courteous. But if benches with backrests aren't going to be treated differently I doubt these things (if we can figure out what to call them) will be either. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
On 30/04/18 07:22, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On 29 April 2018 at 20:36, Paul Allen> wrote: I think an argument can be made for not calling them benches. I just think they shouldn't be called deckchairs. Daybeds? http://www.timbersteel.com.au/day_bed_maureen_oiled__9_.jpg Maybe sun lounge would be a better choice? http://streetfurniture.com/au/dev/product/mall-sun-lounge/ Why not call them a 'chair' and then do sub classes of chair=sun_lounge etc ? And I would call them man_made=chair rather than use the more general amenity key. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
Il giorno dom 29 apr 2018 alle ore 11:03 Tomasz Wójcikha scritto: > There are wooden public deckchairs like these: > > https://www.haloursynow.pl/img/wysiwig/images/IMG_3515.jpg > > > http://www.pmo.com.pl/media/k2/items/cache/0dc247c07eee71a72cf9409729fb3455_XL.jpg > > > http://gloskoninski.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/lezaki-park-ojc-w-konin-kbo-2.jpg > > > I think they are something different than bench and need separate tag, > like "amenity=deckchair". What do you think? > > > I found amenity=bench + bench:type=lounger as existing tagging when I mapped some of them. http://www.genoaportcenter.it/Repository/Immagini/viadottoimperiale.jpg Regards, Stefano > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
On 29 April 2018 at 20:36, Paul Allenwrote: > I think an argument can be made for not calling them benches. I just > think they shouldn't be called deckchairs. > > Daybeds? http://www.timbersteel.com.au/day_bed_maureen_oiled__9_.jpg Maybe sun lounge would be a better choice? http://streetfurniture.com/au/dev/product/mall-sun-lounge/ Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:01 AM, Tomasz Wójcikwrote: > There are wooden public deckchairs like these: > They look very uncomfortable. Perhaps they're not as bad as they look. > I think they are something different than bench and need separate tag, > like "amenity=deckchair". What do you think? > I think the term "deckchair" is misleading. The profile may be similar but they're different things. A real deckchair has a conformal fabric contact area and (the most important distinction) is movable. These things are fixed. Real deckchairs are only present during (approximately) daylight hours and are stored when there is no supervision (to prevent them being stolen). A real deckchair would need an opening_hours tag. I agree that these things aren't benches, but they're not deckchairs either. Using amenity=wooden_deckchair is no better as some deckchairs have a wooden frame and other deckchairs have a tubular metal frame so people would misunderstand what is meant. I think an argument can be made for mapping real deckchairs (it's useful to know if a beach you intend to visit has them). I think an argument can be made for mapping these things. I think an argument can be made for not calling them benches. I just think they shouldn't be called deckchairs. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging