Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. May 2018, at 17:41, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> "brand" is an artificial construct of today's global capitalist economy.
> I have nothing against OSM recording it, but I'd be loathe to afford the
> concept the same importance as corporate PR departments do.
> 
> Knowing what brand a store belongs to is only worth anything if you
> combine that with OSM-external "knowledge" that you have gained from
> marketing material or past experiences with different branches of the
> same brand. It is not a useful fact that helps a visitor who doesn't
> know anything about the brand's supposed image.


this is partly true, more for fields where the offered goods are more or less 
the same (e.g. gasoline brands, apart from what advertising tries to convey, 
your car will run largely the same with differently branded gasoline) and less 
if you have specific needs (e.g. if you are in holiday and need your car 
repaired, you might be interested to go to an official workshop of your car’s 
brand to get original parts, or if you need a mobile phone contract you might 
want to go to a distributor of a specific brand, similarly if you are looking 
for a specific bank or insurance branch, others won’t do).

Besides this, it isn’t improbable that you already have acquired some knowledge 
and expectations based on previous experiences and are looking for a specific 
supermarket brand or chain store, e.g. fashion.


I don’t think it is something that is questioned in general, I’d read this 
discussion that the question is how to store it.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 05/10/2018 04:23 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> It is also a result of how the tags have been introduced, name was used much 
> earlier than brand (which was originally only proposed for automotive brands) 
> so that there is some self-amplifying process of people looking around how 
> things are done and doing it similarly. And maybe most important, osm carto 
> doesn’t render brands, which is sufficient reason for many maybe most mappers 
> to prefer name.

"brand" is an artificial construct of today's global capitalist economy.
I have nothing against OSM recording it, but I'd be loathe to afford the
concept the same importance as corporate PR departments do.

Knowing what brand a store belongs to is only worth anything if you
combine that with OSM-external "knowledge" that you have gained from
marketing material or past experiences with different branches of the
same brand. It is not a useful fact that helps a visitor who doesn't
know anything about the brand's supposed image.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Tobias Knerr]

On 10.05.2018 16:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> The reason why it is done differently is not an educated decision but the 
> result of poor presets and mappers filling them in without further reflection.

Sure, but uneducated decisions reveal a lot about people's intuitions
and interests – two factors that deserve to be taken into account.

When mappers can fill in data without further reflection and still
produce useful results (which I argue is the case here) then that
strikes me as a huge usability win!

> It is also a result of how the tags have been introduced

It's true that brand was introduced later than name, and that it has
been at a disadvantage due to rendering support and the key's history.

That's probably not a coincidence, though. I assume it was introduced
and adopted more slowly precisely because not that many people were
interested in making the distinction in the first place.

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

This whole discussion reminds me of the following passage from Lewis
Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass:

The name of the song is called ‘Haddocks' Eyes.’”
>
> “Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel
> interested.
>
> “No, you don't understand,” the Knight said, looking a little vexed.
> “That's what the name is called. The name really is ‘The Aged Aged Man.’”
>
> “Then I ought to have said ‘That's what the song is called’?” Alice
> corrected herself.
>
> “No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called ‘Ways
> And Means’: but that's only what it's called, you know!”
>
> “Well, what is the song, then?” said Alice, who was by this time
> completely bewildered.
>
> “I was coming to that,” the Knight said. “The song really is ‘A-sitting On
> A Gate’: and the tune's my own invention.”
>


On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 3:44 PM, Leon Karcher 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> While I was filling up this list
>  on the wiki with
> information, someone on the talk page asked why I was adding brand=* to
> every object. His argument was that the brand tag is a duplicate of the
> name tag in most cases and I should only add it if the name differs. (see
> example ) I kind of see
> his point, but what do you think? Should we only add a brand tag if it
> differs from the name?
>
> I thought adding brand= to all 'branded' objects would be helpful because
> it goes hand in hand with brand:wikidata= which I would add to all of them.
>
> Greetings,
> Leon.
>
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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10. May 2018 12:59 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Colin Smale <> colin.sm...@xs4all.nl 
> > > wrote:
>
>>  >> A "name" is what something is "called" by "others." Which "others" are 
>> considered, is the real debate here. Is it the council? Is it the residents 
>> within 100m? Is it a tourist who doesn't speak the local language? Who gets 
>> priority? This is something that cartographers (AKA humans determining the 
>> rendering) must decide, depending on who the map is for.
>>
> I would suggest that the name is what it says on the sign.  Because if you 
> have a hardcopy map, or there's no
> GPS signal on your phone, the sign is what you're looking for.  If the locals 
> call it something other than what is
> on the sign, that is what loc_name is for (in some circumstances alt_name or 
> old_name might be more
> appropriate).  If a mapper puts something else in the name field than what it 
> says on the sign, I get an urge
> to meet that mapper and shake him/her warmly by the neck because that 
> information is of no use to me.




Note that name used and tagged is frequently part of what sign displays.




For example: Starbucks vs Starbucks Coffee



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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10. May 2018 09:44 by leonkarcher@gmail.com 
:


> Hello,
> While I was filling up > this list 
> >  on the wiki with information, 
> someone on the talk page asked why I was adding brand=* to every object. His 
> argument was that the brand tag is a duplicate of the name tag in most cases 
> and I should only add it if the name differs. (see > example 
> > ) I kind of see his point, 
> but what do you think? Should we only add a brand tag if it differs from the 
> name?
> I thought adding brand= to all 'branded' objects would be helpful because it 
> goes hand in hand with brand:wikidata= which I would add to all of them.
> Greetings,> Leon.




brand tag is typically ignored and everybody tags and uses name tag (even in 
situations where 


it is disputable is it really name)




but if somebody wants adding brand tag is not harmful (only in cases where edit 
is done after

verification, not added in blind remote edit based solely on name 
match/similarity)





PS




https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Brands 
 looks like redoing

https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index 
 in worse format

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 10. May 2018, at 15:05, Tobias Knerr  wrote:

>> Imho it us the opposite : name should be added only if it us not the
>> same as brand 
> 
> That approach is different from real-world usage of the tags and appears
> to offer little practical benefit.


Although this is different from what is often done, I support Marc’s notion. 
The reason why it is done differently is not an educated decision but the 
result of poor presets and mappers filling them in without further reflection.

It is also a result of how the tags have been introduced, name was used much 
earlier than brand (which was originally only proposed for automotive brands) 
so that there is some self-amplifying process of people looking around how 
things are done and doing it similarly. And maybe most important, osm carto 
doesn’t render brands, which is sufficient reason for many maybe most mappers 
to prefer name.

The transition would not have to be in a rush, but overall I believe there will 
be benefit from storing information semantically more accurate, e.g. it would 
show that we are actually still missing a lot of names for things where there 
is something else in the name tag.

cheers,
Martin



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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Tobias Knerr]

On 10.05.2018 09:52, marc marc wrote:
> Imho it us the opposite : name should be added only if it us not the
> same as brand 

That approach is different from real-world usage of the tags and appears
to offer little practical benefit.

As far as I can tell, many – probably most – mappers look at the store's
sign and add that appellation to the name tag, no matter whether it's
the name of an individual store or the brand of a chain of stores.

It turns out this usage matches the usual expectations of data consumers
and map users, so I don't see a strong incentive to change it.

I appreciate that there's technically a distinction to be made. And of
course I'm also ok with people who care about these subtleties adding
operator=* and brand=* tags. But personally, I find the intricacies of
corporate organization and branding very uninteresting and would like to
stick with a solution that allows most mappers to not care about it.

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 10 May 2018, Colin Smale wrote:
> Referred to, by whom? Who is the persona here?

This in OSM is always the local observer.

What you might be after is that not every mappable feature in OSM that 
is occasionally referred to with a verbal identifier has a verifiable 
name according to OSM's verifiability principle.  There you are 
correct.  But human use of names has the tendency to converge to a 
uniform name in many cases so if there are verbal identifiers used 
there is also often a verifiable name.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-05-10 13:17, Christoph Hormann wrote:

> On Thursday 10 May 2018, Colin Smale wrote: I should probably add that what 
> can be considered the name of a
> feature is ultimately the decision of the local community. 
> ...as long as there are global ground rules. The autonomy of local
> communities, just like democracy, cannot be unbounded. OSM is a
> global resource. What's a local community, anyway? We don't want
> people in one city doing things differently from another city 10km
> away in the same country, do we?

The definition of a name is pretty universal (as the verbal identifier a

certain specific object is referred to with).  There is not much local 
variation in that. 
Referred to, by whom? Who is the persona here? What's the use case? 

> A "name" is what something is "called" by "others." Which "others"
> are considered, is the real debate here. Is it the council? Is it the
> residents within 100m? Is it a tourist who doesn't speak the local
> language? Who gets priority? This is something that cartographers
> (AKA humans determining the rendering) must decide, depending on who
> the map is for.
> You are mixing the geographic concept of a name with the cartographic 
> concept of a label here - which is of course something a lot of mappers 
> do when they choose name tags.

Interesting - my intention was the exact opposite. The point I was
trying to make (and I think we agree on this) is that a simple "name" is
subjective. Different renderers will make different decisions about what
data to add to the resulting map, according to what they want to
portray. 

A physical sign is analogous to a label - it is a depiction of an
attribute in a certain context. The "facts" are simply that there is a
sign with certain characters on it, in a style that leads us to derive
that this is the name of an object to which it is attached or adjacent.
That is subtly different to the "facts" about the name of the object,
which can be subjective. It depends on who you ask, and in what context.
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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 10 May 2018, Colin Smale wrote:
> > I should probably add that what can be considered the name of a
> > feature is ultimately the decision of the local community.
>
> ...as long as there are global ground rules. The autonomy of local
> communities, just like democracy, cannot be unbounded. OSM is a
> global resource. What's a local community, anyway? We don't want
> people in one city doing things differently from another city 10km
> away in the same country, do we?

The definition of a name is pretty universal (as the verbal identifier a 
certain specific object is referred to with).  There is not much local 
variation in that.

> A "name" is what something is "called" by "others." Which "others"
> are considered, is the real debate here. Is it the council? Is it the
> residents within 100m? Is it a tourist who doesn't speak the local
> language? Who gets priority? This is something that cartographers
> (AKA humans determining the rendering) must decide, depending on who
> the map is for.

You are mixing the geographic concept of a name with the cartographic 
concept of a label here - which is of course something a lot of mappers 
do when they choose name tags.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Colin Smale  wrote:

>
> A "name" is what something is "called" by "others." Which "others" are
> considered, is the real debate here. Is it the council? Is it the residents
> within 100m? Is it a tourist who doesn't speak the local language? Who gets
> priority? This is something that cartographers (AKA humans determining the
> rendering) must decide, depending on who the map is for.
>
> I would suggest that the name is what it says on the sign.  Because if you
have a hardcopy map, or there's no
GPS signal on your phone, the sign is what you're looking for.  If the
locals call it something other than what is
on the sign, that is what loc_name is for (in some circumstances alt_name
or old_name might be more
appropriate).  If a mapper puts something else in the name field than what
it says on the sign, I get an urge
to meet that mapper and shake him/her warmly by the neck because that
information is of no use to me.

Where your questions arise is where there is no sign.  So if you have a
hardcopy map (or no GPS on your
phone) what would you rather see on the map when you ask somebody where X
is?  What the locals call
the place, because most of the people you'll see on the street will be
locals?  What the council calls it,
although the chances of encountering a council employee are small?  What
other tourists who ALSO do not
know what the name is call it?  Hint: those other tourists call it what's
on the map they have or "I don't know
what it's called."

This isn't rocket surgery.  We map reality and approximate to reality if we
must.  So the name comes from
signage, if there is any, or from locals if there is no signage, or from
the council if the locals don't have a
name for it.  Preferably by using loc_name (and maybe official_name for
cases where only the council has
a name for it which locals don't know and there is no signage).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Andrew Harvey]

On 10 May 2018 at 18:33, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> On Thursday 10 May 2018, marc marc wrote:
> > Imho it us the opposite : name should be added only if it us not the
> > same as brand
>
> Exactly.  Nme tags are for identifiers that identify the individual
> object, not a whole class of objects.
>

Agreed. Typically I would tag like this:

name=McDonalds Circular Quay
brand=McDonalds
branch=Circular Quay
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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-05-10 12:01, Christoph Hormann wrote:

> I should probably add that what can be considered the name of a feature 
> is ultimately the decision of the local community.

...as long as there are global ground rules. The autonomy of local
communities, just like democracy, cannot be unbounded. OSM is a global
resource. What's a local community, anyway? We don't want people in one
city doing things differently from another city 10km away in the same
country, do we? 

A "name" is what something is "called" by "others." Which "others" are
considered, is the real debate here. Is it the council? Is it the
residents within 100m? Is it a tourist who doesn't speak the local
language? Who gets priority? This is something that cartographers (AKA
humans determining the rendering) must decide, depending on who the map
is for. 

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 10 May 2018, Simon Poole wrote:
>
> It can be argued that the name suggestion index it is a bit at odds
> with the point raised be Marc and Christoph, but for many of the
> stores/facilities in question there is no difference, and in any case
> I've been toying with the idea of supporting brands in their own
> right, independently of a name .

I should probably add that what can be considered the name of a feature 
is ultimately the decision of the local community.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Simon Poole]

On top of all what has already been said, what you -should- be doing
(after discussion) is adding the tags to
https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index instead of embarking on
a lone crusade to show everybody the light.

It can be argued that the name suggestion index it is a bit at odds with
the point raised be Marc and Christoph, but for many of the
stores/facilities in question there is no difference, and in any case
I've been toying with the idea of supporting brands in their own right,
independently of a name .

Simon

Am 10.05.2018 um 10:47 schrieb Leon Karcher:
> On Thursday 10 May 2018, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> > Also note the edits of DP14_BrandUnification are an undiscussed 
> > mechanical edit and should be reverted.
>
> Undiscussed?
> See https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036034.html
>
>
> And it is only partly mechanical since I'm reviewing all objects.
>
> 2018-05-10 10:33 GMT+02:00 Christoph Hormann  >:
>
> On Thursday 10 May 2018, marc marc wrote:
> > Imho it us the opposite : name should be added only if it us not the
> > same as brand
>
> Exactly.  Nme tags are for identifiers that identify the individual
> object, not a whole class of objects.
>
> Also note the edits of DP14_BrandUnification are an undiscussed
> mechanical edit and should be reverted.
>
> -- 
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 10 May 2018, Leon Karcher wrote:
> > Also note the edits of DP14_BrandUnification are an undiscussed
> > mechanical edit and should be reverted.
>
> Undiscussed? See
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036034.htm
>l

See

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct

for the documentation and discussion requirements of mechanical edits.

> And it is only partly mechanical since I'm reviewing all objects.

Wow - i wish i had that kind of travel budget.

-- 
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Leon Karcher]

On Thursday 10 May 2018, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> Also note the edits of DP14_BrandUnification are an undiscussed
> mechanical edit and should be reverted.

Undiscussed? See
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036034.html

And it is only partly mechanical since I'm reviewing all objects.

2018-05-10 10:33 GMT+02:00 Christoph Hormann :

> On Thursday 10 May 2018, marc marc wrote:
> > Imho it us the opposite : name should be added only if it us not the
> > same as brand
>
> Exactly.  Nme tags are for identifiers that identify the individual
> object, not a whole class of objects.
>
> Also note the edits of DP14_BrandUnification are an undiscussed
> mechanical edit and should be reverted.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 10 May 2018, marc marc wrote:
> Imho it us the opposite : name should be added only if it us not the
> same as brand

Exactly.  Nme tags are for identifiers that identify the individual 
object, not a whole class of objects.

Also note the edits of DP14_BrandUnification are an undiscussed 
mechanical edit and should be reverted.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] brand=* necessary?

[marc marc]

Imho it us the opposite : name should be added only if it us not the same as 
brand
But some render doesn't use brand, this need to fix to avoid loosing data on 
the map

Le 10 mai 2018 à 09:45, Leon Karcher 
mailto:leonkarcher@gmail.com>> a écrit :

Hello,

While I was filling up this list on 
the wiki with information, someone on the talk page asked why I was adding 
brand=* to every object. His argument was that the brand tag is a duplicate of 
the name tag in most cases and I should only add it if the name differs. (see 
example) I kind of see his 
point, but what do you think? Should we only add a brand tag if it differs from 
the name?

I thought adding brand= to all 'branded' objects would be helpful because it 
goes hand in hand with brand:wikidata= which I would add to all of them.

Greetings,
Leon.
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