Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

28. May 2018 00:49 by graemefi...@gmail.com :


> So for clarification, when there's a market that only operates on eg Saturday 
> mornings > 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0861864,153.4491747,3a,75y,247.72h,87.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saCnCOKIP7GoJVWDi7JZ0yg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>  
> >
>  , which is tagged in OSM as amenity=marketplace; opening_hours=those > 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-28.08616/153.44888 
> > , should that 
> also be tagged as street vendors, or not, as they're not actually on the 
> "street", but are set-up under tents / pergolas etc on the School oval?
> Same thing when the market is in a public park - street vendor or not?




My intention  was to cover such shops (as long as they may be mapped in OSM at 
all

what requires consistent stall location)

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

28. May 2018 01:37 by graemefi...@gmail.com :


>
> On 28 May 2018 at 09:07, Paul Allen <> pla16...@gmail.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> How about outdoor_vendor?
>>
>> However, both of the examples you give are the sort that usually don't have 
>> fixed assignments for vendors
>> so you couldn't map them at stall level anyway.
>>
>
> Fair enough on both counts,
> Would you tag the entire area eg > 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0641793,153.4386994,81m/data=!3m1!1e3 
> >  as 
> outdoor_vendor though?, or is that considered implicit in it being a 
> marketplace?




I would tag entire marketplace  if it is not recognizable as markeplace outside 
its opening hours.




Hard to say is it such case here.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

28. May 2018 07:51 by josem...@gmail.com :


> Three years ago I read about rules for street vendors in my city, Madrid. The 
> rules design as "street vendors" a mix of:
> a) Newsagent kiosks and similar (ONCE kiosks). Most of them are permanent, 
> not dismantled at night.




It reminds me that I was supposed to add some negative examples. Added one in




https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes=1613579=1613577
 


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

28. May 2018 13:46 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick <> graemefi...@gmail.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>
>> Would you tag the entire area eg >> 
>> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0641793,153.4386994,81m/data=!3m1!1e3 
>> >>  
>> as outdoor_vendor though?, or is that considered implicit in it being a 
>> marketplace?
>
> My understanding (which may be totally wrong) of the proposal is that 
> outdoor_vendor applies to
> individual "shops."  I see "marketplace" as being one of several collective 
> nouns for outdoor_vendor/
> street_vendor/whatever_we_call_it_vendor.  So, a marketplace of outdoor 
> vendors; a street of outdoor
> vendors, a public square of outdoor vendors, etc.
>




I have no considered it before but it may make sense to use it at 
amenity=marketplace in

some situations so I made an edit:




https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes=1613576=1612755
 





> Having thought about it some more, maybe we need something more than =yes to 
> distinguish between
> things like food vans that are driven away overnight and things like the 
> market stalls I posted pictures of
> where the structures are fixed but the goods for sale are removed overnight.  
> In the first case if you look
> at night you won't see any sign that a vendor is ever there; in the second 
> case you see a structure but
> (without map info) don't know what it sells.
>




 I am not convinced that spending time on defining values in such detail, but 
as I am not opposed to

that I will not explicitly define it as limited only to yes/no values.




If someone see value in additional values - feel free to propose something by 
editing 


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes 


(though I am not promising that I will use it in the final version).

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 4:41 PM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

open_air_vendor and outdoor_vendor are also problematic as my intention
>
> was to include also vendors  that operate under roofs and I expect that in
>
> some places there are pernament shops that are outdoors.
>
I'd say that open_air and outdoor are equally applicable to areas that have
rooves but lack sides.  A roof may provide protection from rain but it
doesn't
provide protection from rain.  Or from thieves.

and something like
>
> dismantable_vendor=yes or disappearing_vendor=yes or may_be_not_present=*
>
> and my other ideas were even worse.
>
The wording could be better.  And I'd go for outdoor_vender=something rather
than proliferate tags.  What those words would be don't immediately spring
to
mind, but I expect somebody will think of something (if there's actually
value to
mapping it in the first place).

There's something else to consider.  Seasonal kiosks.  There's a kiosk in my
town that sells tickets for boat trips.  The kiosk is there overnight and
has doors/
windows that can be locked (but I wouldn't leave anything valuable in it
unattended).  At some times of year it's not there at all.  It doesn't
count as
open_air or outdoor, but it's a street vendor.

It all gets so complicated.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

28. May 2018 01:07 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 11:49 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick <> graemefi...@gmail.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> So for clarification, when there's a market that only operates on eg 
>> Saturday mornings >> 
>> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0861864,153.4491747,3a,75y,247.72h,87.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saCnCOKIP7GoJVWDi7JZ0yg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>>  
>> >>
>>  , which is tagged in OSM as amenity=marketplace; opening_hours=those >> 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-28.08616/153.44888 
>> >> , should that 
>> also be tagged as street vendors, or not, as they're not actually on the 
>> "street", but are set-up under tents / pergolas etc on the School oval?
>> Same thing when the market is in a public park - street vendor or not?
>
> I'd say the same answer applies to both.  If the stalls have assigned 
> locations (rather than being placed at
> random) and the same vendor gets the same location each time then the tag 
> street_vendor would apply
> even though they're not on a street.  Arguably we need a better name for a 
> tag that covers those situations
> as well as those given in the original proposal.  But I suspect that if I 
> proposed ephemeral_vendor or
> intermittent_vendor the debate could drag on for years.  I'd suggest 
> open_air_vendor but it's stretching
> things a bit when you consider mobile catering vans.  How about 
> outdoor_vendor?
>




open_air_vendor and outdoor_vendor are also problematic as my intention

was to include also vendors  that operate under roofs and I expect that in 


some places there are pernament shops that are outdoors.




 

and something like




dismantable_vendor=yes or disappearing_vendor=yes or may_be_not_present=* 


and my other ideas were even worse.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Would you tag the entire area eg https://www.google.com/
> maps/@-28.0641793,153.4386994,81m/data=!3m1!1e3 as outdoor_vendor
> though?, or is that considered implicit in it being a marketplace?
>

My understanding (which may be totally wrong) of the proposal is that
outdoor_vendor applies to
individual "shops."  I see "marketplace" as being one of several collective
nouns for outdoor_vendor/
street_vendor/whatever_we_call_it_vendor.  So, a marketplace of outdoor
vendors; a street of outdoor
vendors, a public square of outdoor vendors, etc.

Then again, maybe it's useful to be able to apply the tag to an area where
outdoor vendors congregate
but are not assigned permanent plots.  Or maybe we need a different tag (or
at least a different value
for the tag) to distinguish that case.

Having thought about it some more, maybe we need something more than =yes
to distinguish between
things like food vans that are driven away overnight and things like the
market stalls I posted pictures of
where the structures are fixed but the goods for sale are removed
overnight.  In the first case if you look
at night you won't see any sign that a vendor is ever there; in the second
case you see a structure but
(without map info) don't know what it sells.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[José G Moya Y .]

I forgot to include the point of my previous message -- I think that being
dismantled every night is not so important.

P.D. Enviado desde un móvil (celular). Disculpe las erratas. No veo bien la
pantalla...

El lun., 28 de mayo de 2018 7:51, José G Moya Y. 
escribió:

> Three years ago I read about rules for street vendors in my city, Madrid.
> The rules design as "street vendors" a mix of:
>
> a) Newsagent kiosks and similar (ONCE kiosks). Most of them are permanent,
> not dismantled at night.
> b) Churro/french fries/hot dog vans/kiosks. They operate on winter only,
> some of them are not dismantled.
> c) Mellon and watermellon kiosks. They operate on summer only.
> d) street markets.
> All of these have to apply in order to operate, and they are always
> "parked" at the same point. A list of all them is issued once per year.
>
> Despite this, many other "street vendors" operate out of official rules,
> either applying for a yearly event or asking permission on a per-event
> basis. These other vendors (including most hipster street food vans) are
> not considered "street vendors" on city regulations.
>
> And there are also the allegal-illegal street vendors, such piracy
> merchandise vendors and homemade tamal vendors, not covered by any
> regulation.
>
> P.D. Enviado desde un móvil (celular). Disculpe las erratas. No veo bien
> la pantalla...
>
> El lun., 28 de mayo de 2018 1:38, Graeme Fitzpatrick <
> graemefi...@gmail.com> escribió:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28 May 2018 at 09:07, Paul Allen  wrote:
>>
>>> How about outdoor_vendor?
>>>
>>> However, both of the examples you give are the sort that usually don't
>>> have fixed assignments for vendors
>>> so you couldn't map them at stall level anyway.
>>>
>>
>> Fair enough on both counts,
>>
>> Would you tag the entire area eg
>> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0641793,153.4386994,81m/data=!3m1!1e3
>> as outdoor_vendor though?, or is that considered implicit in it being a
>> marketplace?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[José G Moya Y .]

Three years ago I read about rules for street vendors in my city, Madrid.
The rules design as "street vendors" a mix of:

a) Newsagent kiosks and similar (ONCE kiosks). Most of them are permanent,
not dismantled at night.
b) Churro/french fries/hot dog vans/kiosks. They operate on winter only,
some of them are not dismantled.
c) Mellon and watermellon kiosks. They operate on summer only.
d) street markets.
All of these have to apply in order to operate, and they are always
"parked" at the same point. A list of all them is issued once per year.

Despite this, many other "street vendors" operate out of official rules,
either applying for a yearly event or asking permission on a per-event
basis. These other vendors (including most hipster street food vans) are
not considered "street vendors" on city regulations.

And there are also the allegal-illegal street vendors, such piracy
merchandise vendors and homemade tamal vendors, not covered by any
regulation.

P.D. Enviado desde un móvil (celular). Disculpe las erratas. No veo bien la
pantalla...

El lun., 28 de mayo de 2018 1:38, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
escribió:

>
>
>
> On 28 May 2018 at 09:07, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> How about outdoor_vendor?
>>
>> However, both of the examples you give are the sort that usually don't
>> have fixed assignments for vendors
>> so you couldn't map them at stall level anyway.
>>
>
> Fair enough on both counts,
>
> Would you tag the entire area eg
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0641793,153.4386994,81m/data=!3m1!1e3 as
> outdoor_vendor though?, or is that considered implicit in it being a
> marketplace?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 28 May 2018 at 09:07, Paul Allen  wrote:

> How about outdoor_vendor?
>
> However, both of the examples you give are the sort that usually don't
> have fixed assignments for vendors
> so you couldn't map them at stall level anyway.
>

Fair enough on both counts,

Would you tag the entire area eg
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0641793,153.4386994,81m/data=!3m1!1e3 as
outdoor_vendor though?, or is that considered implicit in it being a
marketplace?

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 11:49 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> So for clarification, when there's a market that only operates on eg
> Saturday mornings https://www.google.com/maps/@-
> 28.0861864,153.4491747,3a,75y,247.72h,87.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!
> 3m4!1saCnCOKIP7GoJVWDi7JZ0yg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656, which is tagged in OSM
> as amenity=marketplace; opening_hours=those https://
> www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-28.08616/153.44888, should that also be
> tagged as street vendors, or not, as they're not actually on the "street",
> but are set-up under tents / pergolas etc on the School oval?
>
> Same thing when the market is in a public park - street vendor or not?
>

I'd say the same answer applies to both.  If the stalls have assigned
locations (rather than being placed at
random) and the same vendor gets the same location each time then the tag
street_vendor would apply
even though they're not on a street.  Arguably we need a better name for a
tag that covers those situations
as well as those given in the original proposal.  But I suspect that if I
proposed ephemeral_vendor or
intermittent_vendor the debate could drag on for years.  I'd suggest
open_air_vendor but it's stretching
things a bit when you consider mobile catering vans.  How about
outdoor_vendor?

However, both of the examples you give are the sort that usually don't have
fixed assignments for vendors
so you couldn't map them at stall level anyway.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On 27 May 2018 at 23:20, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>  because they're ephemeral
>>
>
> Or are they intermittent? :-)
>

I'm glad somebody took the bait.  :)

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks

Graeme

On 28 May 2018 at 05:06, Paul Allen  wrote:


>  but I'd call them street vendors.
>
> --
> Paul
>

So for clarification, when there's a market that only operates on eg
Saturday mornings
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0861864,153.4491747,3a,75y,247.72h,87.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saCnCOKIP7GoJVWDi7JZ0yg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656,
which is tagged in OSM as amenity=marketplace; opening_hours=those
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/-28.08616/153.44888, should that also
be tagged as street vendors, or not, as they're not actually on the
"street", but are set-up under tents / pergolas etc on the School oval?

Same thing when the market is in a public park - street vendor or not?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 27 May 2018 at 23:20, Paul Allen  wrote:

>  because they're ephemeral
>

Or are they intermittent? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Paul Allen]

It's bad form to follow up to your own mail, but...

On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 4:17 PM, Mateusz Konieczny <
> matkoni...@tutanota.com> wrote:
>
>> 27. May 2018 15:20 by pla16...@gmail.com:
>>
>
> Take a look at https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=53.23546=-1.42869#
> map=19/53.23546/-1.42869
> and then look at it in some street-level imagery
>

Here is some street-level stuff of that location from wikimedia, so
probably OK to use on the OSM wiki.

A slightly blurry view of the stalls:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chesterfield_Market_with_Indoor_Market_Hall_in_the_Background_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1613.jpg

Same location, different viewpoint, at night (so no traders or goods for
sale):
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chesterfield_Market_Hall_(4322450307).jpg

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 4:17 PM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> 27. May 2018 15:20 by pla16...@gmail.com:
>


> Is there anything missing?
>
Having had time to think about it, I don't think that removal, dismantling
or even partial
dismantling are essential characteristics.

Take a look at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=53.23546=-1.42869#map=19/53.23546/-1.42869
and then look at it in some street-level imagery (even if it's the kind
we're not permitted to take mapping
info from, since you're just looking at images, not mapping from them).
For those who like to be
spoon-fed, try
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.2357209,-1.428703,3a,75y,162.59h,87.6t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-UNcyB5F4g0xgJvYytCFBg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D-UNcyB5F4g0xgJvYytCFBg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D80.62932%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

There are several rows of market stall with footpaths (not streets) between
them.  I don't think that
disqualifies them.  The frames are (as I recall) permanent fixtures.  I
don't think that disqualifies them.
It looks like the canvas canopy may no longer be able to be rolled up to
prevent damage from high
winds, but I can't be certain of that.  In any case, I don't think that
disqualifies them.

The defining characteristic, to my mind, is that they are not enclosed by
walls.  The trader must
remove the items overnight.  The trader may leave the stall briefly to go
to the toilet, when nearby
traders will keep an eye on things, but if the goods were left there
unattended overnight they'd
be spirited away.  Those are operational details, though.  The thing that
makes them street
vendors is that they're on the street (those on the periphery are on
pedestrianized streets, the
rest are on footpaths between stalls) and there are no walls or other
barriers to prevent access at
any time.

You may think otherwise, but I'd call them street vendors.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

27. May 2018 15:20 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>   >> 26. May 2018 10:56 by >> dieterdre...@gmail.com 
>> >> :
>> It should be now covered by
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes#Definition
>>  
>> 
>>   
>
> I mentioned this on the discussion page a few days ago (partly as an 
> experiment to
> see if anyone reads discussion pages): the examples ought to explicitly 
> mention 
> outdoor market stalls. 




At least I read them :)




Proposal includes exactly the image you linked as an example since

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes=1612298=1612297
 






I now also added them as an example in the text

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features%2Fstreet_vendor%3Dyes=revision=1612755=1612608
 



 

Is there anything missing?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> 26. May 2018 10:56 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:
>
> It should be now covered by
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/
> street_vendor%3Dyes#Definition
>

I mentioned this on the discussion page a few days ago (partly as an
experiment to
see if anyone reads discussion pages): the examples ought to explicitly
mention
outdoor market stalls.  They are usually regulated and are, in many places,
more
common than other types of street vendor.  One town I used to live in had
permanent
outdoor market stalls and (if I remember correctly what happened 40 years
ago) the
canvas canopies were rolled up and tied when not in use, but that was the
limit of
disassembly.  What happens in the town where I now live is there is a
market hall
(so the traders inside are not street vendors) but it and adjacent
buildings enclose
a public square where temporary market stalls are occasionally erected on
demand
(so unmappable because they're ephemeral and not assigned to specific
traders).

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

25. May 2018 21:19 by pla16...@gmail.com :


>
>
> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 7:58 PM, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>   >> 25. May 2018 20:39 by >> craigw84+...@gmail.com 
>> >> :
>>
>> I agree but I have no good idea for a tag name.  Can you propose something?
>>
>
> mobile_amenity=* maybe.  Or mobile=yes + amenity=*.  I think I prefer the 
> latter,
> because it uses an existing tag and allows mobile=yes/no in combination.




So it would need to be a separate tag with a slightly different meaning. I 
noted that idea,

but it would need to be a separate proposal made by person interested in 
creating this tag.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

26. May 2018 10:56 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> sent from a phone
> On 26. May 2018, at 10:49, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> It gets trickier than expected as in some cases there are roofs 
>>
>>
>> over marketplace/street that are typical trading places...
>>
>>
>
>
> yes, and again in other cases there are also walls around the roof, closed 
> marketplaces, the definitions should be clear where the border is 
>
>
>>
>>
>> I would count covered street as not "outside" but people selling there 
>>
>
>
> +1, outside doesn’t exclude a cover 




It should be now covered by

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes#Definition
 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

26. May 2018 10:57 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> sent from a phone
> On 26. May 2018, at 10:52, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I think that street_vendor=yes would fit - they are selling service, not a 
>> physical 
>>
>>
>> product so it also should fit (but if it is not true then it is a good time 
>> to complain).
>>
>
>
> the same for shoe cleaning?




Also, sounds OK as long as someone is not changing its location.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. May 2018, at 10:52, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> I think that street_vendor=yes would fit - they are selling service, not a 
> physical 
> 
> product so it also should fit (but if it is not true then it is a good time 
> to complain).
> 


the same for shoe cleaning?

Cheers,
Martin ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. May 2018, at 10:49, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> It gets trickier than expected as in some cases there are roofs 
> 
> over marketplace/street that are typical trading places...
> 


yes, and again in other cases there are also walls around the roof, closed 
marketplaces, the definitions should be clear where the border is 


> 
> I would count covered street as not "outside" but people selling there
> 


+1, outside doesn’t exclude a cover 


cheers,
Martin ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

26. May 2018 00:45 by graemefi...@gmail.com :


> How about "shops", or at least traders, that have nothing to do with food, or 
> selling a physical item?
> We have a number of surf schools (learn how to ride a surfboard) that operate 
> out of a van & set up in the same spot every day. At days end, they pack 
> everything up & go home.
> eg > 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.128146,153.4850378,3a,28.2y,336.12h,88.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdIpLqROTmsfmSEHOWWOB3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>  
> 
>
> So street_vendor=yes
> amenity=surf_school (which I don't believe actually exists? :-))?




I think that street_vendor=yes would fit - they are selling service, not a 
physical 


product so it also should fit (but if it is not true then it is a good time to 
complain).

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

25. May 2018 22:38 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> sent from a phone
>
>> On 25. May 2018, at 19:59, Mateusz Konieczny <>> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> I attempted to improve definition, and I ended with
>>
>> "shop that is completely or almost completely dismantled outside its opening 
>> hours."
>
>
> the term “street” also suggests the shop is outside 





It gets trickier than expected as in some cases there are roofs 


over marketplace/street that are typical trading places...

I would count covered street as not "outside" but people selling there 


without permanent shops would still be street vendors for me.

I added some pictures to 


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes 


in attempt to help better define/explain tag.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

How about "shops", or at least traders, that have nothing to do with food,
or selling a physical item?

We have a number of surf schools (learn how to ride a surfboard) that
operate out of a van & set up in the same spot every day. At days end, they
pack everything up & go home.

eg
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.128146,153.4850378,3a,28.2y,336.12h,88.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdIpLqROTmsfmSEHOWWOB3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

So street_vendor=yes

amenity=surf_school (which I don't believe actually exists? :-))?

Thanks

Graeme

On 26 May 2018 at 06:38, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 25. May 2018, at 19:59, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
> >
> > I attempted to improve definition, and I ended with
> >
> > "shop that is completely or almost completely dismantled outside its
> opening hours."
>
>
> the term “street” also suggests the shop is outside
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. May 2018, at 19:59, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> I attempted to improve definition, and I ended with
> 
> "shop that is completely or almost completely dismantled outside its opening 
> hours."


the term “street” also suggests the shop is outside 


cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 7:58 PM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> 25. May 2018 20:39 by craigw84+...@gmail.com:
>
> I agree but I have no good idea for a tag name.  Can you propose something?
>

mobile_amenity=* maybe.  Or mobile=yes + amenity=*.  I think I prefer the
latter,
because it uses an existing tag and allows mobile=yes/no in combination.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

25. May 2018 20:39 by craigw84+...@gmail.com :

> Would be good to map them in some way. They are not really "street vendors".
>




I agree but I have no good idea for a tag name.  Can you propose something?




If there is nothing reasonable it can be left for someone else to invent a 
separate

similar tag.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Craig Wallace]

On 2018-05-25 19:31, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

I forgot how many different objects qualified, I now listed  some


"It includes for example food trucks that are not permanently staying 
in one place,


products sold from cart, portable table, tent, or by somebody holding 
products for sale."



at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes#Rationale


There's also mobile banks or mobile libraries in some places. ie a van 
that stops in particular places, usually with a regular timetable.

Would be good to map them in some way. They are not really "street vendors".



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

25. May 2018 20:09 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>   >> I attempted to improve definition, and I ended with
>> "shop that is completely or almost completely dismantled outside its opening 
>> hours."
>>
>
> What I have used in the past, because it was suggested to me by somebody else 
> who
> had used it, was "building=trailer + shop=whatever" for two "food vans."  
> They're
> towed into place at the start of the day and towed away at night.  Or might 
> even be
> left in place overnight.  Doesn't work for something like a portable table or 
> a
> dismantleable market stall.
>




I forgot how many different objects qualified, I now listed  some




"It includes for example food trucks that are not permanently staying in one 
place, 


products sold from cart, portable table, tent, or by somebody holding products 
for sale."




at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes#Rationale
 


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> I attempted to improve definition, and I ended with
>
> "shop that is completely or almost completely dismantled outside its
> opening hours."
>

What I have used in the past, because it was suggested to me by somebody
else who
had used it, was "building=trailer + shop=whatever" for two "food vans."
They're
towed into place at the start of the day and towed away at night.  Or might
even be
left in place overnight.  Doesn't work for something like a portable table
or a
dismantleable market stall.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I attempted to improve definition, and I ended with
"shop that is completely or almost completely dismantled outside its opening 
hours."

I also created 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_vendor%3Dyes 


23. May 2018 13:21 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


> 2018-05-23 8:17 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > >:
>
>>   
>> Good question. At least for me "entire shop structure gets regularly 
>> removed", so
>>
>> permanent kiosk that is not a solid building would not be one,
>>
>> plaid/roof that gets removed would count as a street vendor.
>>   
>
>
> I know some cases that for me are clearly street vendors, but would require 
> you amend your definition (because the structure is not removed):> these are 
> "light" wooden booths, which are used to sell books during the day, but 
> aren't removed (the books are removed). Similar to some kind of fleamarket 
> (also these have sometimes "semi-permanent" light structures), e.g.: 
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.902814=12.468088=17=JIjxIVtTBITaTY5ZP_ilvw=photo
>  
> 
>
>
> For reference, here is an image of a vehicle based street vendor:> 
> https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.902601=12.467558=17=ZHd6LnmlJJgJJv7W6DVaXw=photo
>  
> 
>
> Cheers,> Martin
>___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-23 8:17 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> Good question. At least for me "entire shop structure gets regularly
> removed", so
>
> permanent kiosk that is not a solid building would not be one,
>
> plaid/roof that gets removed would count as a street vendor.
>


I know some cases that for me are clearly street vendors, but would require
you amend your definition (because the structure is not removed):
these are "light" wooden booths, which are used to sell books during the
day, but aren't removed (the books are removed). Similar to some kind of
fleamarket (also these have sometimes "semi-permanent" light structures),
e.g.:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.902814=12.468088=17=JIjxIVtTBITaTY5ZP_ilvw=photo


For reference, here is an image of a vehicle based street vendor:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=41.902601=12.467558=17=ZHd6LnmlJJgJJv7W6DVaXw=photo

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Mateusz Konieczny]

23. May 2018 00:32 by dieterdre...@gmail.com :


>
>
> 2018-05-22 23:37 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > >:
>
>>   >> Some street vendors appear in one place regularly, so it makes 
>> sense to map them as shops.
>> But at the same time it makes sense to 
>> mark them specially, as it makes clear>> that outside opening hours there 
>> may>> be little to no evidence that one may buy>> anything there.
>> I looked at taginfo and found nothing 
>> interesting, so I used street_vendor=yes>> for objects that I mapped.
>>
>
>
> what is your criterion for the property? Someone standing always at the same 
> spot with a barbecue and sausages attached to his body? A temporary structure 
> or even a plaid with the merchandise on it, that gets removed every evening? 
> A structure that is not a solid building (e.g. no foundation but standing on 
> the road) selling newspapers?




Good question. At least for me "entire shop structure gets regularly removed", 
so

permanent kiosk that is not a solid building would not be one,

plaid/roof that gets removed would count as a street vendor.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Warin]

On 23/05/18 10:32, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2018-05-22 23:37 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny >:


Some street vendors appear in one place regularly, so it makes
sense to map them as shops.

But at the same time it makes sense to
mark them specially, as it makes clear
that outside opening hours there may
be little to no evidence that one may buy
anything there.

I looked at taginfo and found nothing
interesting, so I used street_vendor=yes
for objects that I mapped.



what is your criterion for the property? Someone standing always at 
the same spot with a barbecue and sausages attached to his body? A 
temporary structure or even a plaid with the merchandise on it, that 
gets removed every evening? A structure that is not a solid building 
(e.g. no foundation but standing on the road) selling newspapers?




Some are trucks, some caravans, some hand trolleys (hand carts) ...
arr wikipedia
Hawker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_(trade)
food truck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_truck
mobile catering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_catering

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] marking shop as street vendor

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-05-22 23:37 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> Some street vendors appear in one place regularly, so it makes sense to
> map them as shops.
>
> But at the same time it makes sense to
> mark them specially, as it makes clear
> that outside opening hours there may
> be little to no evidence that one may buy
> anything there.
>
> I looked at taginfo and found nothing
> interesting, so I used street_vendor=yes
> for objects that I mapped.
>


what is your criterion for the property? Someone standing always at the
same spot with a barbecue and sausages attached to his body? A temporary
structure or even a plaid with the merchandise on it, that gets removed
every evening? A structure that is not a solid building (e.g. no foundation
but standing on the road) selling newspapers?

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging