Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Warin]

On 27/6/23 18:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 26 Jun 2023, at 20:50, Minh Nguyen  wrote:

For what it's worth, the Sporting Goods Retailers subindustry in NAICS includes "gun 
shops".


what’s the category for multi role combat aircraft or heavy battletanks?



NATO had a part number for a warship .. with crew and 7 days of 
supplies... along with lots of other part numbers e.g. for washers, 
bolts, nuts, paint, etc.


Never went looking for a gun, bomb etc.. but someone made a mistake with 
a part number and stores rang them up wanting to know where they wanted 
the warship with crew etc delivered .. they ordered from the 6th floor 
of an inland building.



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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 at 07:42, Minh Nguyen 
wrote:

> Vào lúc 01:47 2023-06-27, Martin Koppenhoefer đã viết:
> > what’s the category for multi role combat aircraft or heavy battletanks?
>
> Why do you ask? 🤔
>

So they can be listed as shop=weapons, perhaps? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 01:47 2023-06-27, Martin Koppenhoefer đã viết:

On 26 Jun 2023, at 20:50, Minh Nguyen  wrote:

For what it's worth, the Sporting Goods Retailers subindustry in NAICS includes "gun 
shops".



what’s the category for multi role combat aircraft or heavy battletanks?


Aircraft artillery manufacturing
https://www.census.gov/naics/?input=332994&year=2022&details=332994

Aircraft dealers
https://www.census.gov/naics/?input=441227&year=2022&details=441227

Military flight instruction training
https://www.census.gov/naics/?input=611512&year=2022&details=611512

Tanks, military (including factory rebuilding), manufacturing
https://www.census.gov/naics/?input=336992&year=2022&details=336992

Military vehicles (except trucks) merchant wholesalers
Tanks and tank components merchant wholesalers
https://www.census.gov/naics/?input=423860&year=2022&details=423860

Heavy equipment operation schools
https://www.census.gov/naics/?input=611519&year=2022&details=611519

Why do you ask? 🤔

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26 Jun 2023, at 20:50, Minh Nguyen  wrote:
> 
> For what it's worth, the Sporting Goods Retailers subindustry in NAICS 
> includes "gun shops".


what’s the category for multi role combat aircraft or heavy battletanks? 


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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 20, 2023, 06:35 by matkoni...@tutanota.com:

> Jun 20, 2023, 01:36 by g...@lexort.com:
>
>> In English, the adjective for the shop tends to be singular, when that
>> adjective is a noun.  The plural just sounds funny.  For example we have
>> "car dealer", "grocery store", "grocery store", "cell phone store", etc.
>> So I am fine with shop=guns being viewed as a typo for shop=gun.
>>
> Can anyone else confirm this? I though that shop=guns would be preferable
>
> But after that comment and looking at > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop
> I am not really sure.
>
I documented shop=gun at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgun
and reverted one of my edits that changed shop=gun to shop=firearms

(will look at all shop=firearms and shop=guns and check whether any other were
retagged from shop=gun by me recently)
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[stevea]

My point, and I think it is "well-absorbed" by the thread and its participants, 
is not that we must get all hyper-legal about any or every tag, but rather that 
in the case of shop=firearms, this would-be tag is TOO legal and not generic 
enough, while shop=guns (or gun, I could go either way but prefer the former) 
is neither legal nor not generic enough.

So, agreeing:  shop=guns is not-too-legal and is generic enough and common 
vernacular to be a good tag for a "gun shop."

Whew!
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

Minh Nguyen  writes:

> I for one support the drawing of hyperblobs.

Thanks; I was pretty sure I was not alone.

> If we look at our existing repertoire of shop=* values, it's pretty
> clear that we aim for plain language when possible, although we do
> sometimes fall short.
>
> shop=curtain, not shop=window_treatment
> shop=doityourself, not shop=building_material_and_supplies
> shop=furniture, not shop=home_furnishings
> shop=gift, not shop=souvenir or shop=novelty
> shop=haberdashery, not shop=needlework_goods
> shop=second_hand, not shop=used_merchandise
> shop=shoes, not shop=footwear
>
> Industry classification schemes are a better source of inspiration for
> POI classification than individual laws. Unfortunately, the wiki's
> NACE (Europe) [1] and NAICS (North America) [2] correspondence tables
> reveal a lot of gaps in our tagging schemes, but they do give a sense
> of which terms would be well-recognized and maybe how to classify
> them. For what it's worth, the Sporting Goods Retailers subindustry in
> NAICS includes "gun shops". [3]
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:NACE
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NAICS
> [3] https://www.census.gov/naics/?input=gun+shop&year=2022&details=459110

I should be clear that I think we have settled on "shop=gun" and not to
care about e.g. air rifles being different.  I think that's a good
outcome.   My point was just that people seem to be overly fixated on
law in a way that is not similar to how everything else is approached.

Do people realize that in my state, and likely everywhere else, that you
need a special license to sell milk/dairy?  And that there are likely
pages of regulations that define exactly what that means, and how it
must be pasteurzied?  But OSM doesn't care; it's just a food item, and
that's how it should be.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 05:14 2023-06-26, Greg Troxel đã viết:

Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging  writes:


and therefore a poor terms to use in OSM (like shop=firearms
apparently)


"Firearm" is first a technical term, and secondarily (and relatively
recently) a legal one.  The reason that's not a good word to use in a
tag is that many people are 1) unclear on normal usage 2) conclude out
of thin air that we need to worry about legal definitions, rather than
deciding how to draw a hyperblob around some sort of thing that occurs
enough in the real world to be worth naming.


I for one support the drawing of hyperblobs.

If we look at our existing repertoire of shop=* values, it's pretty 
clear that we aim for plain language when possible, although we do 
sometimes fall short.


shop=curtain, not shop=window_treatment
shop=doityourself, not shop=building_material_and_supplies
shop=furniture, not shop=home_furnishings
shop=gift, not shop=souvenir or shop=novelty
shop=haberdashery, not shop=needlework_goods
shop=second_hand, not shop=used_merchandise
shop=shoes, not shop=footwear

Industry classification schemes are a better source of inspiration for 
POI classification than individual laws. Unfortunately, the wiki's NACE 
(Europe) [1] and NAICS (North America) [2] correspondence tables reveal 
a lot of gaps in our tagging schemes, but they do give a sense of which 
terms would be well-recognized and maybe how to classify them. For what 
it's worth, the Sporting Goods Retailers subindustry in NAICS includes 
"gun shops". [3]


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:NACE
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NAICS
[3] https://www.census.gov/naics/?input=gun+shop&year=2022&details=459110

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging  writes:

>> So I find the attention to legal definitions in the present discussion
>> bizarre.
>>
> That is a different situation. 
>
> shop=medical_cannabis would be analogous to shop=firearms
> as it is a legal term (if I understood it right) with variety of differences
> across places and wild changes in its definition over time,

Again this is paying too much attention to the law.

shop=medical_cannabis is

  a shop where you can buy cannabis, but only if you have some kind of
  medical permit/prescription/paperwork

It's true what kind of papers you need varies by jurisdiction, but that
is not relavant to drawing a boundary around the concept.

This is in fact the same difference between

  shop=chemist
  amenity=pharmacy

The first just sells stuff and the 2nd you need paperwork.  Which things
are in which category is an arbitrary matter of law that varies across
time and space.

> and therefore a poor terms to use in OSM (like shop=firearms
> apparently)

"Firearm" is first a technical term, and secondarily (and relatively
recently) a legal one.  The reason that's not a good word to use in a
tag is that many people are 1) unclear on normal usage 2) conclude out
of thin air that we need to worry about legal definitions, rather than
deciding how to draw a hyperblob around some sort of thing that occurs
enough in the real world to be worth naming.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 25, 2023, 01:13 by g...@lexort.com:

> Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:
>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 24 Jun 2023, at 00:29, Minh Nguyen  wrote:
>>>
>>> But if we focus too pedantically on legal status at the expense of
>>> common sense, then we've reinvented designation=*, and mappers and
>>> data consumers have to find yet another key to express what could've
>>> been in highway=*.
>>>
>>
>> oh yes, absolutely, if legal status and common sense/reality are not 
>> congruent we should record both.
>>
> (...)
>
> But none of that matters to OSM; if there is a shop that is selling
> cannabis, then it is tagged as such, regardless of whether it is a
> federal crime but not a state crime, a crime under neither legal regime,
> or a crime under both.  And it doesn't matter exactly how either regime
> defines what is or is not unlawful.
>
> So I find the attention to legal definitions in the present discussion
> bizarre.
>
That is a different situation. 

shop=medical_cannabis would be analogous to shop=firearms
as it is a legal term (if I understood it right) with variety of differences
across places and wild changes in its definition over time, and
therefore a poor terms to use in OSM (like shop=firearms apparently)
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:

> sent from a phone
>
>> On 24 Jun 2023, at 00:29, Minh Nguyen  wrote:
>> 
>> But if we focus too pedantically on legal status at the expense of
>> common sense, then we've reinvented designation=*, and mappers and
>> data consumers have to find yet another key to express what could've
>> been in highway=*.
>
> oh yes, absolutely, if legal status and common sense/reality are not 
> congruent we should record both.

That isn't that case.  What's going on is that people want to pay
attention to legal definitions of words (whose proper scope is only
reading the law).  Describing reality is actually quite straightforward.

For example:

  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcannabis

In Massachusetts, as in many US states, such activities are permitted
under state law, but are absolutely prohibited under Federal law.
Despite this, many people, whether due to a desire to deceive or a lack
of understanding, say things like "marijuana is legal in Massachusetts" :-)
However it is not being enforced.

But none of that matters to OSM; if there is a shop that is selling
cannabis, then it is tagged as such, regardless of whether it is a
federal crime but not a state crime, a crime under neither legal regime,
or a crime under both.  And it doesn't matter exactly how either regime
defines what is or is not unlawful.

So I find the attention to legal definitions in the present discussion
bizarre.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24 Jun 2023, at 00:29, Minh Nguyen  wrote:
> 
> But if we focus too pedantically on legal status at the expense of common 
> sense, then we've reinvented designation=*, and mappers and data consumers 
> have to find yet another key to express what could've been in highway=*.


oh yes, absolutely, if legal status and common sense/reality are not congruent 
we should record both.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 10:23 2023-06-22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging đã viết:

Jun 21, 2023, 15:51 by g...@lexort.com:

It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop
that sells whatever the local law means by firearms". This is a
general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect
mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language.

Though if some specific term is primarily legal term and has crazy
definitions varying across world - then using a different term is a 
better idea,

if such term is available and is less confusing.


I think that's a good approach in this case. Laws and regulations often 
prefer technical-sounding terms like "weapon" and "firearm" over more 
colloquial terms like "gun" in order to precisely redefine them within 
the scope of a particular law. So when data consumers see "weapon" or 
"firearm", they may be inclined to think we're specifically referring to 
that law, but we send craft-mappers out into the field, not government 
inspectors.


The problem with relying on laws to define the plain meaning of a term 
is that most laws aren't intended to regulate language. A typical law in 
the U.S. comes with a definition section that _redefines_ common words 
so that it can reuse them as shorthand later in the text, but this 
doesn't necessarily bind ordinary people's use of the terminology. If 
the law intends to promote consistent external usage of the term, then 
it'll probably call for signage or perhaps a public awareness campaign.


There was a rather spectacular episode last year when a mapper failed to 
comprehend this nuance and insisted on redefining service=driveway in 
Asia based on a definition in an obscure California law about where city 
governments must build curbs and sidewalks. [1]


[1] 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2022-September/087734.html


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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 06:47 2023-06-23, Martin Koppenhoefer đã viết:
I believe the US is an exception then, at least the current wiki 
confirms what I wrote (and in this case I didn't write it myself ;-) ) , 
from highway=motorway:


Typically highway 
=motorway should be 
*_used only on roads with control of access 
_*, or selected 
roads with limited access 
 depending on the 
local context and prevailing convention.


Generally roads with control of access 
 are proclaimed 
in government documents, and have an official status as a controlled 
access road, sometimes this can include the term motorway, freeway or 
expressway among others in the road name. These kinds of roads usually 
have a special designation by the law, with a set of laws specifically 
applied on them. Generally some restrictions are placed on the kind of 
vehicles or traffic which can be on roads which should be classed as 
highway =motorway, such 
as no pedestrians, bicycles, livestock, horses and so on.


There's probably little disagreement over these criteria as guiding 
principles, but the question is how strictly to apply them. I can point 
to technical publications, signs, laws, etc. that definitively state the 
existence of a particular freeway/motorway/expressway, but I can just as 
easily point to exceptions, some of them rather absurd. The definition 
already recognizes this possibility by including some "weasel words" 
(generally, usually). Moreover, if we venture into a region with less 
developed transportation infrastructure, the contrast between a motorway 
and everything else will be stark enough that formalities like signs 
would be completely unnecessary in all cases.


Ultimately, OSM is a geodatabase, not a legal database. The purpose of 
this definition or any other tagging definition is to ensure some degree 
of consistency in what the tag is applied to. But if we focus too 
pedantically on legal status at the expense of common sense, then we've 
reinvented designation=*, and mappers and data consumers have to find 
yet another key to express what could've been in highway=*.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[stevea]

On Jun 23, 2023, at 2:31 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 03:37, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> but I have never seen a convenience store selling auto supplies, 
> 
> Do you have stores attached to service stations, selling bread, milk, snacks, 
> drinks etc?
> If so, they would probably also have a couple of shelves of auto stuff.

I can confirm that (in the USA, widely) we have automobile service stations 
(colloquially called "gas stations" or infrequently "fuel stations") which 
sometimes have a convenience store attached, and that yes, they certainly do 
sell minor automobile supplies like fuses, oil, radiator-stop-leak, replacement 
turn-signal bulbs, et cetera.

And for convenience stores which are not "attached to" a "gas station" (service 
station, fuel station, petrol station...), I have certainly seem similar minor 
automobile supplies (fuses, oil, bulbs...) sold there, too.  Though, I'd say 
"less often than at a convenience store 'attached to' a service station."

See, this is why we have multiple tags that can associate with a single node 
(or polygon).  If it sells "light automobile supplies" (fuses, oil, bulbs...) 
it should be tagged with that (or something like it), along with fuel, 
sandwiches, soda, candy, tobacco, perhaps beer and wine, whatever.

Precision for shop=gun, shop=firearms remains elusive, though I think we all 
agree we want to be both encompassing and precise, which isn't always easy.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 03:37, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> but I have never seen a convenience store selling auto supplies,
>

Do you have stores attached to service stations, selling bread, milk,
snacks, drinks etc?

If so, they would probably also have a couple of shelves of auto stuff.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[stevea]

On Jun 23, 2023, at 7:12 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> English varies by country and sometimes we can't understand each other.  
> Changing semantics by regional English is no more reasonable than changing by 
> other language word collisions.   My point is that a tag defines a semantic 
> concept and that we should strive to have it mean that concept everywhere.   
> That is the point, so that data consumers can use it.

Going "meta about this," OSM and OSM in the USA experienced similar pain (and 
we still do, due to the legacy tagging that hasn't yet been fully cleaned up) 
with leisure=park.  In US English, "park" is a widely encompassing word that 
can include many recreational areas which have a far wider semantic than the 
very specific (urban, "manicured human space") meant by leisure=park.  With 
some pain (it lingers) OSM in the USA had to "suck it up" (deal with the 
reality of leisure=park having a specific meaning in OSM, even if that meaning 
is seriously restricted in a US English context).

Similar things are going on here with guns / firearms, and part of the reason 
this thread lingers is because the issue (for guns, firearms...) remains in 
both people's minds (who might tag in OSM), various dialects of English and 
regions where guns (or firearms...) are sold.  These don't align, we struggle 
with this, as we don't know how to align them in our tagging.

Yes, we want data consumers to use the tag(s).  It may be OSM simply has to 
struggle through (as we do with leisure=park meaning one thing, 
boundary=national_park meaning another, boundary=protected_area or perhaps 
leisure=nature_reserve, if that is true, meaning another...) the 
not-necessarily-consistent semantics of gun/firearm shops with various, 
still-emerging potentially difficult syntax markers, which don't yet seem to be 
agreed upon, to denote them.

We don't have to stay "meta about this" any longer than necessary (and can end 
it here), but it can help to see things like this.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 23 Jun 2023, at 16:13, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
>   My point is that a tag defines a semantic concept and that we should strive 
> to have it mean that concept everywhere.   That is the point, so that data 
> consumers can use it.


agreed. The problems for example arise because sometimes essential things are 
not explicitly defined as people take them for granted (the definitions are 
just more English words), and then it turns out, different properties have been 
taken for granted or not be considered.


Let’s have a look at basic concepts that occur around the world, e.g. food 
provision. If you don’t produce your own food, or go foraging, hunting or 
fishing, you’ll have to buy it. Generic food buying places in osm are markets 
and street vendors (let’s ignore the latter for this time as they don’t occur 
everywhere), convenience stores and supermarkets. The market term is a huge 
umbrella and can accommodate lots of different kinds of places (if you look 
into more detail than just “market”) so we won’t have a problem at this level 
of specificity, but defining a semantic difference of convenience store and 
supermarket regardless of local customs seems impossible.


The wiki says for convenience store:
“ A convenience shop is a small local shop carrying a variety of everyday 
products, such as packaged food and hygiene products”

While this might seem a good description of a convenience store, it still isn’t 
a real definition that would exclude all other shops that aren’t. it doesn’t 
say there must be food, e.g. a shop selling clothing, hygiene products and 
newspapers would also fit.

There is also a longer text, full definition says: “ A convenience shop, also 
known as a convenience store or mini-mart: A small local shop carrying a 
variety of everyday products, mostly including single-serving food items such 
as milk, bread, snacks, groceries to over-the-counter medications, household 
items, stationery, and small auto supplies such as fuses. 
They may be part of a chain - 7-Eleven (US, Japan, Europe, Australia) and 
AM/PM, Wawa (US) - or locally owned. In the USA, they're also sometimes 
referred to as a bodega or a corner store.”


This is not a definition (and not an exception, I bet the tag definition for 
“building” says it is about a building but does not exactly define what a 
building is). You can not decide whether a shop is a convenience shop with 
these descriptions, rather you have to know what a convenience shop is in order 
to use it correctly.
For example the first paragraph says: mostly including …small auto supplies 
such as fuses. - I am willing to believe this is the case somewhere, but I have 
never seen a convenience store selling auto supplies, should I never have used 
the tag then? Or is it just an example and it is fine when auto supplies are 
missing, or single serving milk? What is required as a minimum, what is 
indispensable? Could this be defined with semantics for a global application? 
Yes, we should strive to clearly define semantic concepts, but we are often 
very far, we do things by local accustoms and agreements and common (hopefully, 
mostly/often) understanding of single words we use as tag names, in English ;-)___
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

On June 23, 2023 1:50:58 PM UTC, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
>Am Do., 22. Juni 2023 um 14:41 Uhr schrieb Greg Troxel :
>
>>
>> Suppose in some other country, bakery is a term that means a shop that
>> primarly sells sausages.  We wouldn't say that this should be
>> amenity=bakery.
>
>
>
>this is why we have agreed to use English words. A "bakery" in English is a
>place that primarily sells bread (and other baked stuff, at least
>generally), so if some other language used the same letters for a word
>"bakery" which had a different meaning, it could not be the one intended in
>OSM because we use English.

English varies by country and sometimes we can't understand each other.  
Changing semantics by regional English is no more reasonable than changing by 
other language word collisions.   My point is that a tag defines a semantic 
concept and that we should strive to have it mean that concept everywhere.   
That is the point, so that data consumers can use it.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 22. Juni 2023 um 14:41 Uhr schrieb Greg Troxel :

>
> Suppose in some other country, bakery is a term that means a shop that
> primarly sells sausages.  We wouldn't say that this should be
> amenity=bakery.



this is why we have agreed to use English words. A "bakery" in English is a
place that primarily sells bread (and other baked stuff, at least
generally), so if some other language used the same letters for a word
"bakery" which had a different meaning, it could not be the one intended in
OSM because we use English.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 22. Juni 2023 um 12:36 Uhr schrieb Brian M. Sperlongano <
zelonew...@gmail.com>:

>
> yes, but motorway is an exception because it is usually defined by signs
>> rather than characteristics (e.g. if the signs are missing but it looks and
>> feels like, we use motorroad=yes in some countries)
>
>
> Iknow you said 'usually' but this sounds like a very European perspective
> to me.  We have no such distinction in the US. I've learned on this project
> to be quite careful about projecting what we think to be a normal structure
> onto other locations in the world.  In the US it's a motorway if it's
> physically constructed like one, and there's many edge cases that we
> scratch our heads on.
>


I believe the US is an exception then, at least the current wiki confirms
what I wrote (and in this case I didn't write it myself ;-) ) , from
highway=motorway:

Typically highway =motorway
should be *used only on roads with control of access
*, or selected
roads with limited access
 depending on the local
context and prevailing convention.

Generally roads with control of access
 are proclaimed in
government documents, and have an official status as a controlled access
road, sometimes this can include the term motorway, freeway or expressway
among others in the road name. These kinds of roads usually have a special
designation by the law, with a set of laws specifically applied on them.
Generally some restrictions are placed on the kind of vehicles or traffic
which can be on roads which should be classed as highway
=motorway, such as no
pedestrians, bicycles, livestock, horses and so on.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 21, 2023, 15:51 by g...@lexort.com:

> It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop
> that sells whatever the local law means by firearms".   This is a
> general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect
> mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language.
>
Though if some specific term is primarily legal term and has crazy
definitions varying across world - then using a different term is a better idea,
if such term is available and is less confusing.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 22, 2023, 14:46 by g...@lexort.com:

> Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:
>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 21 Jun 2023, at 15:52, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>>>
>>> It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop
>>> that sells whatever the local law means by firearms".   This is a
>>> general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect
>>> mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language.
>>>
>>
>> I am not sure I can subscribe to this. Generally our tags are used
>> when the thing meets the local expectations of “such thing”, e.g. an
>> amenity=cafe or amenity=pub in England is probably different from
>> places with such a tag in Germany. Or a shop=bakery in England will
>> not necessarily sell the same kind of bread than one in France.
>>
>
> Of course it won't have the same kind of bread.  But it will still be a
> shop that sells primarily things that have been baked, pastry and bread.
>
> Suppose in some other country, bakery is a term that means a shop that
> primarly sells sausages.  We wouldn't say that this should be
> amenity=bakery.
>
And this is not merely theoretical!

word "bar" in Polish does not mean the same as in English and has
much wider meaning range.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_mleczny
See https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_(plac%C3%B3wka_gastronomiczna)

Place selling 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bar_mleczny_Kalina,_Poznan,_pomidorowka,_watrobka.jpg
as typical thing is not amenity=bar even if it is locally called "bar".

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

Martin Koppenhoefer  writes:

> sent from a phone
>
>> On 21 Jun 2023, at 15:52, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>> 
>> It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop
>> that sells whatever the local law means by firearms".   This is a
>> general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect
>> mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language.
>
> I am not sure I can subscribe to this. Generally our tags are used
> when the thing meets the local expectations of “such thing”, e.g. an
> amenity=cafe or amenity=pub in England is probably different from
> places with such a tag in Germany. Or a shop=bakery in England will
> not necessarily sell the same kind of bread than one in France.

Of course it won't have the same kind of bread.  But it will still be a
shop that sells primarily things that have been baked, pastry and bread.

Suppose in some other country, bakery is a term that means a shop that
primarly sells sausages.  We wouldn't say that this should be
amenity=bakery.

I think it is

> There is a point where the differences are so big that we decide to
> introduce a new tag (or subtag), but in a case like the arms shop I
> believe the most likely answer for OpenStreetMap is actually "a shop
> that sells whatever the local law means by firearms",

If we pivot to shop=gun, then we have a broader category, and we don't
need to care about law.

With your definition, a shop in my state that sells rifles only would
not be shop=firearms because under local law "firearm" means "handgun".

Note that it's odd to worry about law, and it's wrong to let that drive
tagging which should be independent of government.  Normally shop=foo
defines a concept and it applies whether or not there are any laws about
foos.

> just like a
> highway=motorway is “a highway that the local law means by motorway”.

I don't think that's true at all.  highway=motorway is a road that

  has multiple lanes
  is limited access
  has not at-grade intersections

with the usual "tiny violation doesn't disqualify" caveats.

The word "motorway" is just not used in the US.  Not by people, not in
law, that I've ever seen.   The formal terms are "limited access
highway", which is close but does not require multiple travel lanes.
And then there is "Interstate highway" which is a route signing thing,
which has associated construction standards.  But something can be an
Interstate without meeting them, very very rarely (I hear this about
Alaska).


The whole point of the map is to be used, and for that to be sane, we
need consistent semantics across all countries.   That means not
aligning to local words exactly, and certainly not to legal definitions,
which are arbitrary and sometimes bizarre.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

In fact, in my little corner of the country, the term we would use for this
is "highway" and in other places "expressway" means the same thing,  which
is hopelessly confusing because these are also OSM keys with different
meanings from the colloquial terminology.


On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, 8:28 AM Greg Troxel  wrote:

> "Brian M. Sperlongano"  writes:
>
> > On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, 8:08 AM Illia Marchenko <
> illiamarchenk...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> But "freeway" is de facto equivalent of motorway, right?
> >>
> >
> > Freeway is a colloquial term that's only used in some parts of the
> country
> > and only signed as such in some states and often inconsistently. I assure
> > you that the on the ground situation is far more complicated.
>
> Agreed.  When someone says that something is a "freeway", there is no
> basis to be sure what kind of physical road it is.
>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

"Brian M. Sperlongano"  writes:

> On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, 8:08 AM Illia Marchenko 
> wrote:
>
>> But "freeway" is de facto equivalent of motorway, right?
>>
>
> Freeway is a colloquial term that's only used in some parts of the country
> and only signed as such in some states and often inconsistently. I assure
> you that the on the ground situation is far more complicated.

Agreed.  When someone says that something is a "freeway", there is no
basis to be sure what kind of physical road it is.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, 8:08 AM Illia Marchenko 
wrote:

> But "freeway" is de facto equivalent of motorway, right?
>

Freeway is a colloquial term that's only used in some parts of the country
and only signed as such in some states and often inconsistently. I assure
you that the on the ground situation is far more complicated.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Illia Marchenko]

But "freeway" is de facto equivalent of motorway, right?

Regards,
Illia.

Brian M. Sperlongano :

>
> yes, but motorway is an exception because it is usually defined by signs
>> rather than characteristics (e.g. if the signs are missing but it looks and
>> feels like, we use motorroad=yes in some countries)
>
>
> Iknow you said 'usually' but this sounds like a very European perspective
> to me.  We have no such distinction in the US. I've learned on this project
> to be quite careful about projecting what we think to be a normal structure
> onto other locations in the world.  In the US it's a motorway if it's
> physically constructed like one, and there's many edge cases that we
> scratch our heads on.
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>
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

> yes, but motorway is an exception because it is usually defined by signs
> rather than characteristics (e.g. if the signs are missing but it looks and
> feels like, we use motorroad=yes in some countries)


Iknow you said 'usually' but this sounds like a very European perspective
to me.  We have no such distinction in the US. I've learned on this project
to be quite careful about projecting what we think to be a normal structure
onto other locations in the world.  In the US it's a motorway if it's
physically constructed like one, and there's many edge cases that we
scratch our heads on.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22 Jun 2023, at 00:43, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> Generally, yes, I'd however not invoke the law at this point - I'd say a 
> shop=firearms is whatever locals would call a firearms shop, if that term is 
> used locally.


agreed


> 
> Generally speaking I object to an one-size-fits-all approach to tagging. 
> Instead of defining that in order to be a shop=bakery something must fulfil 
> the following 5 criteria (which can amount to cultural imperialism) I'd 
> rather say that a shop=bakery is whatever the locals call a bakery.


when they don’t speak English and have different types of „bakeries“, things 
become more complicated though. If you ask locals about a „bakery“ it may 
depend what word(s) your dictionary translates it to, whether they‘d consider 
it such.


> 
> And highway classification is maybe not the best example, because it is 
> generally agreed that the legal status of a road is not the sole deciding 
> factor when it comes to which highway=* we map it as. A road that is 
> secondary by law but primary in practice, will often be tagged primary.


yes, but motorway is an exception because it is usually defined by signs rather 
than characteristics (e.g. if the signs are missing but it looks and feels 
like, we use motorroad=yes in some countries)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 6/21/23 16:16, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

There is a point where the differences are so big that we decide to introduce a new tag 
(or subtag), but in a case like the arms shop I believe the most likely answer for 
OpenStreetMap is actually "a shop that sells whatever the local law means by 
firearms", just like a highway=motorway is “a highway that the local law means by 
motorway”.


W...

Generally, yes, I'd however not invoke the law at this point - I'd say a 
shop=firearms is whatever locals would call a firearms shop, if that 
term is used locally.


Generally speaking I object to an one-size-fits-all approach to tagging. 
Instead of defining that in order to be a shop=bakery something must 
fulfil the following 5 criteria (which can amount to cultural 
imperialism) I'd rather say that a shop=bakery is whatever the locals 
call a bakery.


And highway classification is maybe not the best example, because it is 
generally agreed that the legal status of a road is not the sole 
deciding factor when it comes to which highway=* we map it as. A road 
that is secondary by law but primary in practice, will often be tagged 
primary.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21 Jun 2023, at 15:52, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
> It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop
> that sells whatever the local law means by firearms".   This is a
> general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect
> mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language.


I am not sure I can subscribe to this. Generally our tags are used when the 
thing meets the local expectations of “such thing”, e.g. an amenity=cafe or 
amenity=pub in England is probably different from places with such a tag in 
Germany. Or a shop=bakery in England will not necessarily sell the same kind of 
bread than one in France.

There is a point where the differences are so big that we decide to introduce a 
new tag (or subtag), but in a case like the arms shop I believe the most likely 
answer for OpenStreetMap is actually "a shop that sells whatever the local law 
means by firearms", just like a highway=motorway is “a highway that the local 
law means by motorway”.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

Graeme Fitzpatrick  writes:

> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 22:11, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>>
>>   an air rifle is not a firearm, in English, because there is no
>>   combustion
>
> Unfortunately, in Australia at least, air rifles are actually officially
> classed as firearms! :-(

Sure, that (and warins') are examples of a law defining a word to mean
something different from what the word ordinarily means.  This happens
all the time for all sorts of things, and I don't think we should let
that drive our tagging, which should be about the normal meaning of the
word.

But, if someone applies the tag to a shop whose primary product is air
rifles, regardless of our label, that's not a bad thing, compared to the
other tags someone might choose.

It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop
that sells whatever the local law means by firearms".   This is a
general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect
mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language.

As a valid and further crazy definition, in Massachusetts law a
"highway" means any legal road (one with an easement to the public that
includes vehicles).  Almost no one in MA knows that, and would think
highway means either what OSM calls motorway or maybe also trunk, or
would think it means "a road with a state or federal route number".  We
don't It is amusing that OSM tagging is "highway=foo", and it is perhaps
a historical artifact of English law and naming.

If people are saying that the OSM definition for shop=gun/shop=firearms
should be "a shop that primarily sells firearms, by which we mean
devices that emit a projectile via combusion, as well as via compresed
air", because drawing a line around that represents a cluster that both
  - exists in the real world
  - captures an idea that large numbers of people are likely to find
meaningful

that's fine.

I find that tagging discussions tend to be disconnected from considering
the utility of tagging for data consumers.  That is the point, and I
think when that is the main consideration then it will also be
straightforward for mappers.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21 Jun 2023, at 13:10, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I note the absence of 'fire' in the above definitions. Explosions can be had 
> from compressed gas


doesn’t seem to cover electromagnetic weapons, or does it?
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Warin]

On 21/6/23 09:50, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 22:11, Greg Troxel  wrote:


  an air rifle is not a firearm, in English, because there is no
  combustion


Unfortunately, in Australia at least, air rifles are actually 
officially classed as firearms! :-(




NSW legal definition of firearm;

Firearms Act 1996 section 4 "as a gun, or other weapon, that is (or at 
any time was) capable of propelling a projectile by means of an 
explosive, and includes a blank fire firearm, or an air gun, but does 
not include a paintball marker within the meaning of the Paintball Act 
2018 or anything declared by the regulations not to be a firearm".


UK Firearms Act 1968  the expression “firearm” means—

(a)a lethal barrelled weapon (see subsection (1B));

(b)a prohibited weapon;

(c)a relevant component part in relation to a lethal barrelled weapon or 
a prohibited weapon (see subsection (1D));


(d)an accessory to a lethal barrelled weapon or a prohibited weapon 
where the accessory is designed or adapted to diminish the noise or 
flash caused by firing the weapon;]


and so much of section 1 of this Act as excludes any description of 
firearm from the category of firearms to which that section applies 
shall be construed as also excluding component parts of, and accessories 
to, firearms of that description.




[F3(1B)In subsection (1)(a), “lethal barrelled weapon” means a barrelled 
weapon of any description from which a shot, bullet or other missile, 
with kinetic energy of more than one joule at the muzzle of the weapon, 
can be discharged.


(1C)Subsection (1) is subject to section 57A (exception for airsoft guns).]


-

I note the absence of 'fire' in the above definitions. Explosions can be 
had from compressed gas.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 22:11, Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
>   an air rifle is not a firearm, in English, because there is no
>   combustion
>

Unfortunately, in Australia at least, air rifles are actually officially
classed as firearms! :-(

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

Marc_marc  writes:

> so now that we have a documented tag shop=knives,
> how to tag a shop that sell knives and arcs ? shop=knives;arcs ?
> of course not
> when we have found the right term for this shop, the previous case
> could have been handled in the same way with details in a secondary tag

the basic issue, which you seem to be avoiding, is that any actual shop
sells a variety of things.  We don't (can't and shouldn't) enumerate all
of them; OSM is a map, not a precise inventory database.

What we are doing is agreeing on a set of labels for objects which exist
to some significant extent that people using the map will be able to
grasp those objects and use them for either understanding what is
present, analysis queries, or search.

The point here is not that stores selling knives might sell something
else.  It's that there are a large number of stores whose *primary*
point is to sell knives, and naturally the sell other things that people
who are interested in buying knives might also buy, when selling those
additional items is not burdensome.

This is exactly the same as other stores.  Liquor stores for example
sell non-alcoholic beverages often used for consumption at parties, or
mixers.  They will ~never sell milk, because that requires stock
management for expiration and usually a separate license, which is a
different business operations plan.

Similarly a gun store might sell some outdoorsy or self-defense-ish
knives, because it's easy to stock.  A knife store won't sell guns,
because that's a different level of licensing and paperwork, here, and I
suspect most places.

As for stevea@'s comment about gun vs firearm, I disagree.  firearm is
more technical/precise and gun is less formal.  Yes, the law defines all
sorts of things, often in ways that are contrary to English, and in law
things mean what the law/cases say they mean, not what they normally
mean.  Two examples:

  an air rifle is not a firearm, in English, because there is no
  combustion

  In Massachusetts, firearm in law means handgun.  This is just bizarre
  and totally contrary to English usage, but it's how it is.

We certainly shouldn't encode in tags legal definitions that are
contrary to normal usage.  And of coures, an OSM tag means what we say
it means -- but good practice is to choose words so that mostly reading
the tag causes people to jump to the right conclusion.

I do agree with stevea@'s discussion of singular/plural.   It seems
obvious that each shop value should exist in one form or the other.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Marc_marc]

Le 19.06.23 à 23:52, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :



On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 02:57, Illia Marchenko 
mailto:illiamarchenk...@gmail.com>> wrote:


As possible solution, *shop=weapon*


Sorry, but speaking as a recreational shooter, & on behalf of all 
others, we find the use of the term "weapons" for our chosen sporting 
tools more than somewhat offensive - recreational shooters don't use 
weapons, the military does!


We would /much/ prefer to see it listed as either shop=gun/s or 
=firearms, rather than =weapons.


with *sells=firearms;knives*. 



As not all gunshops sell all types of gun, that could also then be 
broken down further into the classification of guns that they sell e.g.

guns=rifles;shotguns;pistols

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 03:48, Marc_marc > wrote:



 > Maybe also create shop=knives page

Does it make sense to create a primary tag for each type of weapon?


Yes it does, as you also have shops that are primarily intended  
to sell knives


I never said it didn't exist, I'm saying that it's not adapted
to the reality of shops that don't necessarily sell just one type
of object.

so now that we have a documented tag shop=knives,
how to tag a shop that sell knives and arcs ? shop=knives;arcs ?
of course not
when we have found the right term for this shop, the previous case
could have been handled in the same way with details in a secondary tag



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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 14:38, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Jun 20, 2023, 01:36 by g...@lexort.com:
>
> In English, the adjective for the shop tends to be singular, when that
> adjective is a noun. The plural just sounds funny. For example we have
> "car dealer", "grocery store", "grocery store", "cell phone store", etc.
> So I am fine with shop=guns being viewed as a typo for shop=gun.
>
> Can anyone else confirm this? I though that shop=guns would be preferable
>

As Steve put it so eloquently, you go to the gun shop to buy gun*s*.

Similarly, in Australia, you also go to the bottle shop to buy bottle*s*
(of alcohol).

As he said - blame English! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 14:31, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> I have created https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dknives
>

Thanks


> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dammunition has single use
> Is there a different tagging for that or is it not mapped/extremely rare?
>

Yes, they would be pretty rare, but yes again, they do exist!


> I would use shop=sports sport=archery, though shop=archery has some uses
> (maybe there are archery shops where shop=sports sport=archery would be
> invalid?)
>

No, I'm not sure about that one, all I know is that there are shops devoted
purely to archery.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 11:03, stevea  wrote:

> Postscript:  I find Minh's examples (a drive-through liquor store with
> live fishing bait, a supermarket with mattresses and tool sheds, a
> laundromat with treadmills, a car wash and tanning beds...) to be each and
> every one of true, well-researched and delightfully mirthful.
>

As do I! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[stevea]

On Jun 19, 2023, at 9:35 PM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
 wrote:
> Jun 20, 2023, 01:36 by g...@lexort.com:
> In English, the adjective for the shop tends to be singular, when that
> adjective is a noun. The plural just sounds funny. For example we have
> "car dealer", "grocery store", "grocery store", "cell phone store", etc.
> So I am fine with shop=guns being viewed as a typo for shop=gun.
> Can anyone else confirm this? I though that shop=guns would be preferable
> 
> But after that comment and looking at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop
> I am not really sure.

As a native speaker of US English, I concur that tagging for shop=* "tends to 
be singular," and that this doesn't sound odd to my ear when I hear or read it. 
 I also note that some are plural, as well (such as shop=beverages, 
shop=spices).

However, if I were to imagine many of the extant tags for shop=* which are 
singular, specific examples here include shop=cheese, shop=chocolate, 
shop=coffee, shop=confectionery, shop=frozen_food, shop=pastry, shop=tea, any 
of these COULD be plural (requiring some usual English-specific spelling 
oddities, like pastry becoming pastries) without sounding terribly wrong.  In 
other words, the singular versions here sound more natural, but the plural 
forms aren't absolutely incorrect.

Conversely, if shop=beverages or shop=spices were to become singular, those 
forms wouldn't sound terribly incorrect either.

Honestly (as a multilingual linguist in both natural and artificial / 
programming languages), I believe such "singularity / plurality" is very 
example-specific, and perhaps dialect-specific.  There is a similar, perhaps 
related concept called a "mass noun" (like "sand" or "sugar") which you can't 
really say whether is singular or plural, it is in a class by itself:  "make 
sure you get all that sugar in the sack."  Is/are "sugar" singular or plural?  
Well, yes, um, no...it is a mass noun and is "uncountable," which have no 
concept of singular or plural.  (These are distinct from "count nouns," which 
DO have a concept of singular or plural).

I think each example for shop=* is distinct.  You might get some discussion (in 
a particular dialect of English, for example), whether a shop that sells 
"pickles" (pickled cucumbers and other pickled vegetables or foods) is 
correctly shop=pickle or shop=pickles (or even shop=pickled, but I digress).  
These are very specific and to a "local ear" one or the other might sound more 
correct:  it's highly locally-dependent.

In the case of shop=gun, I could go either way (like beverage/s or spice/s):  
shop=gun seems OK, as I hear "gun shop," and also shop=guns seems OK, as "a 
shop that sells guns" works for my ear as well.

My apologies, non-native English speakers:  this really is just English being 
weirdly English.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 20, 2023, 01:36 by g...@lexort.com:

> In English, the adjective for the shop tends to be singular, when that
> adjective is a noun.  The plural just sounds funny.  For example we have
> "car dealer", "grocery store", "grocery store", "cell phone store", etc.
> So I am fine with shop=guns being viewed as a typo for shop=gun.
>
Can anyone else confirm this? I though that shop=guns would be preferable

But after that comment and looking at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop
I am not really sure.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 19, 2023, 23:57 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

>
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 03:48, Marc_marc <> marc_m...@mailo.com> > wrote:
>
>>
>> > Maybe also create shop=knives page
>>  
>>  Does it make sense to create a primary tag for each type of weapon?
>>
>
> Yes it does, as you also have shops that are primarily intended to sell 
> knives e.g. > https://www.kingofknives.com.au/> , & which is not just a 
> shop=houseware as they also sell hunting, fishing & trade (chef / butchers 
> etc) knives.
>
I have created https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dknives

>
> You also have shops that only sell ammunition, not guns: > 
> http://www.uniquemunitions.com/
>
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dammunition has single use
Is there a different tagging for that or is it not mapped/extremely rare?

> There should probably also be a shop=archery, as bows & arrows are often 
> found in their own shop, not associated with shooting.
>
I would use shop=sports sport=archery, though shop=archery has some uses
(maybe there are archery shops where shop=sports sport=archery would be 
invalid?)

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[stevea]

Postscript:  I find Minh's examples (a drive-through liquor store with live 
fishing bait, a supermarket with mattresses and tool sheds, a laundromat with 
treadmills, a car wash and tanning beds...) to be each and every one of true, 
well-researched and delightfully mirthful.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[stevea]

Minh and I are in the same jurisdiction (California) regarding guns, but I 
agree with Graeme that we want to be careful with our terminology here.  Minh 
says "A gun store specializes in firearms and ammo..." whereas I'm pretty sure 
most people (who use guns) would say "A gun store specializes in guns and 
ammo...".

The word "firearm" and especially "weapon" are not synonyms for "gun."  
(Especially "weapon," a widely-encompassing term).  "Firearm" has legal 
connotations (hence the mention of jurisdiction, and in the USA, the word 
"firearm" is most certainly laden with legal connotation, as in the name of the 
federal agency "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives").  "Firearm" is 
specifically defined in 18 U.S. Code § 921, for example, and can include things 
like a starter pistol, because it "may readily be converted to expel a 
projectile" (even though it wasn't designed to).

I'm likely quibbling here, but while these distinctions are subtle, they are 
real.  I think if OSM means "gun," we should say (tag, denote, document...) 
"gun."

I don't wish to get too USA-specific or even too political, but there are also 
"gun shows" which are ad hoc and/or semi-regular gatherings of People (see, 
that word is capitalized to mean something specific, and not just 18th-century 
anachronism, but as a 21st-century "proclamation of our unity") where guns are 
sold, with what some consider to be "looser" legal requirements (the so-called 
"private sale exemption" which precludes a background check of the buyer).  I 
don't wish to get in any trouble for saying that.  Our constitution was written 
to empower "the People," which our government was formed to serve.

In short, if you mean "gun," say "gun."  "Firearm" is more formal and a 
somewhat legalese term which isn't really in the vernacular (and I've even 
heard pushback when it is used improperly), at least in US English.  I don't 
mean to be issuing that very pushback here and now (even if I am), I'm calling 
attention to the usage of language for the benefit of OSM tagging.


> On Jun 19, 2023, at 5:18 PM, Minh Nguyen  wrote:
> 
> Vào lúc 16:26 2023-06-19, Greg Troxel đã viết:
>> Graeme Fitzpatrick  writes:
 As possible solution, *shop=weapon*
>>> 
>>> Sorry, but speaking as a recreational shooter, & on behalf of all others,
>>> we find the use of the term "weapons" for our chosen sporting tools more
>>> than somewhat offensive - recreational shooters don't use weapons, the
>>> military does!
>> In the US, even in Massachusetts, usage is "gun store" (store US vs shop
>> UK, as usual) if being casual, and "firearms" if being formal.  I have
>> never heard any (civilian) store be desribed as a "weapons store".
>> That's a word I heard only in the context of defense contractors and
>> usually foreign military sales.
> 
> A gun store specializes in firearms and ammo, typically for recreation or 
> self-defense. By contrast, a shop=sports sport=shooting;hunting;paintball 
> would probably carry clothing and other gear, but wouldn't necessarily carry 
> firearms.
> 
> "Weapons store" sounds to me like a military surplus store, which might sell 
> firearms (and knives), but we already have shop=military_surplus for this 
> kind of store.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 10:44 2023-06-19, Marc_marc đã viết:

Does it make sense to create a primary tag for each type of weapon?
I find it very fragmenting, especially as there will inevitably be shops 
selling 2 items with different primary tags, which merits a secondary 
tag and not a shop=guns;knives


I'm not sure it's possible to completely escape this situation with any 
shop category. A drive-through liquor store can be famous for its deli 
meats and live fishing bait [1]; a "supermarket" can specialize in 
candy, mattresses, floor tiles, and tool sheds [2]; and a laundromat can 
wash your car while you alternate between the treadmill and tanning bed 
[3]. Not unsurprisingly, there's also a gun store that doubles as a pawn 
shop and gold exchange. [4]


Imagine if shop=* could just take multiple values separated by semicolons...

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/175820359
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10742957305
[3] 


[4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6636023469

--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us



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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 16:26 2023-06-19, Greg Troxel đã viết:

Graeme Fitzpatrick  writes:


As possible solution, *shop=weapon*


Sorry, but speaking as a recreational shooter, & on behalf of all others,
we find the use of the term "weapons" for our chosen sporting tools more
than somewhat offensive - recreational shooters don't use weapons, the
military does!


In the US, even in Massachusetts, usage is "gun store" (store US vs shop
UK, as usual) if being casual, and "firearms" if being formal.  I have
never heard any (civilian) store be desribed as a "weapons store".
That's a word I heard only in the context of defense contractors and
usually foreign military sales.


A gun store specializes in firearms and ammo, typically for recreation 
or self-defense. By contrast, a shop=sports 
sport=shooting;hunting;paintball would probably carry clothing and other 
gear, but wouldn't necessarily carry firearms.


"Weapons store" sounds to me like a military surplus store, which might 
sell firearms (and knives), but we already have shop=military_surplus 
for this kind of store.


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us



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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 09:26, Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> In the US, even in Massachusetts, usage is "gun store" (store US vs shop
> UK, as usual) if being casual, and "firearms" if being formal.  I have
> never heard any (civilian) store be desribed as a "weapons store".
>

Yep, & they don't buy from "shops"!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

Marc_marc  writes:

> Does it make sense to create a primary tag for each type of weapon?
> I find it very fragmenting, especially as there will inevitably be
> shops selling 2 items with different primary tags, which merits a
> secondary tag and not a shop=guns;knives

We have grocery and bakery.

Stores that sell firearms and stores that primarily sell knives are
basically distinct entities, even though there is commonality.   Knife
stores are typically either high end kitchen only, or generalists with
kitchen  knives and artisanal knives, along with practical outdoors-type
knives.

>> Create shop=firearms page, describing shop=gun and shop=guns as
>> duplicates of it.
>
> if it's a duplicate, we don't need a dedicated page,
> a redirect is enough.
> but I'm not en english native.

In English, the adjective for the shop tends to be singular, when that
adjective is a noun.  The plural just sounds funny.  For example we have
"car dealer", "grocery store", "grocery store", "cell phone store", etc.
So I am fine with shop=guns being viewed as a typo for shop=gun.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Greg Troxel]

Graeme Fitzpatrick  writes:

>> As possible solution, *shop=weapon*
>
> Sorry, but speaking as a recreational shooter, & on behalf of all others,
> we find the use of the term "weapons" for our chosen sporting tools more
> than somewhat offensive - recreational shooters don't use weapons, the
> military does!

In the US, even in Massachusetts, usage is "gun store" (store US vs shop
UK, as usual) if being casual, and "firearms" if being formal.  I have
never heard any (civilian) store be desribed as a "weapons store".
That's a word I heard only in the context of defense contractors and
usually foreign military sales.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 02:57, Illia Marchenko 
wrote:

> As possible solution, *shop=weapon*
>

Sorry, but speaking as a recreational shooter, & on behalf of all others,
we find the use of the term "weapons" for our chosen sporting tools more
than somewhat offensive - recreational shooters don't use weapons, the
military does!

We would *much* prefer to see it listed as either shop=gun/s or =firearms,
rather than =weapons.


> with *sells=firearms;knives*.
>

As not all gunshops sell all types of gun, that could also then be broken
down further into the classification of guns that they sell e.g.
guns=rifles;shotguns;pistols

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 03:48, Marc_marc  wrote:

>
> > Maybe also create shop=knives page
>
> Does it make sense to create a primary tag for each type of weapon?
>

Yes it does, as you also have shops that are primarily intended to sell
knives e.g. https://www.kingofknives.com.au/, & which is not just a
shop=houseware as they also sell hunting, fishing & trade (chef / butchers
etc) knives.

You also have shops that only sell ammunition, not guns:
http://www.uniquemunitions.com/

There should probably also be a shop=archery, as bows & arrows are often
found in their own shop, not associated with shooting.

& how about shops for fencing / swordsmanship?
https://www.leonpaulaustralia.com/

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dhunting is another one to be
considered? How does that match in with guns, fishing etc?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Marc_marc]

Le 19.06.23 à 18:25, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :

I propose (based on info I gathered to)
- remove claim that shop=guns should be replaced by shop=weapons
(due to information loss, there are also for example shops selling knives)


or improve the advice to avoid the lost : shop=weapons weapons=guns


- remove shop=firearms and shop=gun and shop=guns redirects


I see no added value to remove shop=gun redirect.
is there a difference between shop=gun and shop=guns ?
if not, shop=gun should be redirected to shop=guns


Maybe also create shop=knives page


Does it make sense to create a primary tag for each type of weapon?
I find it very fragmenting, especially as there will inevitably be shops 
selling 2 items with different primary tags, which merits a secondary 
tag and not a shop=guns;knives
Create shop=firearms page, describing shop=gun and shop=guns as 
duplicates of it.


if it's a duplicate, we don't need a dedicated page,
a redirect is enough.
but I'm not en english native.

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms

[Illia Marchenko]

As possible solution, *shop=weapon* with *sells=firearms;knives*.

Regards,
Illia.

Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging :

> OSM Wiki currently claims that
>
> shop=guns should be replaced by shop=weapons
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dweapons
>
> Tag:shop=firearms redirects to shop=weapons
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dfirearms&redirect=no
>
> Tag:shop=gun redirects to shop=weapons
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dgun&redirect=no
>
> I propose (based on info I gathered to)
> - remove claim that shop=guns should be replaced by shop=weapons
> (due to information loss, there are also for example shops selling knives)
> - remove shop=firearms and shop=gun and shop=guns redirects
>
> Maybe also create shop=knives page
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dknives&action=edit&redlink=1
>
> Create shop=firearms page, describing shop=gun and shop=guns as duplicates
> of it.
>
> -
>
> Basically I propose to
> - document shop=knives
> - document shop=firearms
> - undeprecate shop=firearms
> - change deprecation targets of shop=gun and shop=guns
>
> -
>
> Comments are welcome!
>
> PS maybe shop=weapons weapons=guns or shop=weapons weapons=firearms
> would make sense, and be preferable over shop=firearms?
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