Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-11-22 10:13 GMT+01:00 Simone Saviolo :

> (E.g. in Germany, you will generally have to use winter tyres (at the
>> moment still also M+S, but AFAIK they are currently changing this)
>>
>
> Would you care to expand on this? What we commonly call "winter tyres" are
> actually M+S (mud and snow) models.
>


appearantly there are also all-season tyres that carry the M+S sign.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Simone Saviolo]

2017-11-16 13:55 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
> I believe the question remains whether "winter_equipment" is sufficient or
> if we want to distinguish. e.g. between winter tyres and snow chains or
> spikes. There might also be different regulations for different kind of
> vehicle, e.g. hgv, motorbikes, ...
>

IMO, if the sign is a generic one like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_tire#/media/File:CZ-C15a_Zimn%C3%AD_v%C3%BDbava.png
then map generically "winter equipment", but if it is more specific, like
this
https://www.sicurauto.it/upload/news_/8684/img/2038-cartelli-sperimentali-pneumatici-invernali.png
then definitely we should map what it says, i.e., either M+S tyres or snow
chains mandatory between day X and day Y.

In Italy, for example, the latter kind is way more common, and is very
specific and doesn't require any knowledge of the local law - which (off
topic) should be a requirement of any road sign anywhere: how am I supposed
to know what the hell the first sign means exactly?


> (E.g. in Germany, you will generally have to use winter tyres (at the
> moment still also M+S, but AFAIK they are currently changing this)
>

Would you care to expand on this? What we commonly call "winter tyres" are
actually M+S (mud and snow) models.

Regards,

Simone
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-11-09 21:12 GMT+01:00 Michal Fabík :

> On 1.11.2017 11:50, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> Hi, sorry for the long pause.
> Ok, following Warin's suggestion:
>
> > https://www.sicurauto.it/upload/news_/8684/img/2038-cartelli
> sperimentali-pneumatici-invernali.png
> motor_vehicle:conditional=winter_equipment @ (Nov 15-Apr 15)
>
> > http://www.rmastri.it/plugins/image_gallery/images/gallery/8
> 194ca9513d72ed09adb11f0f3af.jpg
> motor_vehicle:conditional=yes @ winter_equipment
>
> or
>
> motor_vehicle:conditional=winter_equipment @ winter
>
> (Not sure if the sign implies all the time or within a time span defined
> by law.)
>
> > https://www.avd.de/fileadmin/content/Bilder/Unterseiten/Rech
> t/Content/Verkehrszeichen-268.png
>
> motor_vehicle:conditional=yes @ snow_chains
> motor_vehicle:conditional=snow_chains @ winter



I believe the question remains whether "winter_equipment" is sufficient or
if we want to distinguish. e.g. between winter tyres and snow chains or
spikes. There might also be different regulations for different kind of
vehicle, e.g. hgv, motorbikes, ...
(E.g. in Germany, you will generally have to use winter tyres (at the
moment still also M+S, but AFAIK they are currently changing this) in the
winter, but there are signs that make snow chains obligatory for the
road.). Wikipedia has a summary page in German about the situation in
different countries:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterausr%C3%BCstung_(Stra%C3%9Fenverkehr)

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Michal Fabík]

On 1.11.2017 11:50, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Hi, sorry for the long pause.
Ok, following Warin's suggestion:

> https://www.sicurauto.it/upload/news_/8684/img/2038-cartelli 
sperimentali-pneumatici-invernali.png

motor_vehicle:conditional=winter_equipment @ (Nov 15-Apr 15)

> 
http://www.rmastri.it/plugins/image_gallery/images/gallery/8194ca9513d72ed09adb11f0f3af.jpg 


motor_vehicle:conditional=yes @ winter_equipment

or

motor_vehicle:conditional=winter_equipment @ winter

(Not sure if the sign implies all the time or within a time span defined 
by law.)


> 
https://www.avd.de/fileadmin/content/Bilder/Unterseiten/Recht/Content/Verkehrszeichen-268.png 



motor_vehicle:conditional=yes @ snow_chains
motor_vehicle:conditional=snow_chains @ winter

(Again, see above.)

My original idea was simply:
winter_equipment=Nov 15-Apr 15 and winter_equipment=yes for the first 
two signs, respectively.


Regards,

--
Michal Fabík

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> In many European countries we have two types of restrictions:
> (a) Certain roads or road networks require you to carry winter equipment
> for specific periods (details vary widely) or under certain weather
> conditions (more or less vaguely defined)
> (b) Roads may be closed for predefined or variable times (typically alpine
> passes)
>

This is typical in North America as well, but you get far enough north and
there's some roads that are only open in the winter, owing to the fact the
rest of the year they're either portages or bodies of water.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Volker Schmidt]

In many European countries we have two types of restrictions:
(a) Certain roads or road networks require you to carry winter equipment
for specific periods (details vary widely) or under certain weather
conditions (more or less vaguely defined)
(b) Roads may be closed for predefined or variable times (typically alpine
passes)

On 1 Nov 2017 8:55 p.m., "Kevin Kenny"  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:47 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> > Data consumers should at least prompt "do you really want to go with this
> > route?" during the winter on routes that are restricted in winter, and
> > reject on routes closed in winter (or at least throw an "are you sure?"
> on
> > winter road restrictions; after all, they could already be in trouble in
> > conditions where tracking their own path in isn't possible to get back
> out
> > (ie, after a blizzard), and being able to orient to a more reasonable
> > location for rescue might be the best opportunity for rescue if they've
> > already got themselves stranded).  In either way, can't hurt to also warn
> > when approaching the conditional if the exact conditions aren't known to
> the
> > consumer (ie, a wet road speed limit if the consumer can't/doesn't check
> the
> > weather; or a variable speed limit if there's no way that the consumer
> can
> > tell what the real limit is until the sign is seen, or that you're
> > approaching a potential winter restriction or closure in winter so
> decisions
> > can be made (anything from slowing down so a hidden speed bump doesn't
> rip a
> > muffler off to not barreling into a wall of snow where winter maintenance
> > ends).
>
> In my area, the signage is usually: "Limited purpose seasonal-use
> highway. No maintenance Dec 1-Apr 15." But those dates are very, very
> flexible. I've seen the roads close by Hallowe'en in a year with a
> heavy early snowfall (a light snow, and they'll still try to keep them
> plowed outside the posted dates), or take well into
> May to get them open again if the snowpack
> is high or the rockslides have been bad. Similarly, I've seen them still
> open until Christmas or opened again in late March. So I agree that a
> generic
> "are you sure?" prompt is probably The Right Thing. The mountains
> make their own weather, and we humans aren't very good at
> scheduling around it.
>
> So I agree that any conditional restriction that a routing&navigation
> system doesn't understand merits an 'are you sure?'. And for that
> reason, in many of these highly fuzzy cases, it doesn't do to get too
> finely into the details. It actually is trying to remove responsibility
> from
> the driver, where it belongs, and place it on the navigation system, which
> generally lacks the information and judgment needed to make the
> right call.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Kevin Kenny]

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:47 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> Data consumers should at least prompt "do you really want to go with this
> route?" during the winter on routes that are restricted in winter, and
> reject on routes closed in winter (or at least throw an "are you sure?" on
> winter road restrictions; after all, they could already be in trouble in
> conditions where tracking their own path in isn't possible to get back out
> (ie, after a blizzard), and being able to orient to a more reasonable
> location for rescue might be the best opportunity for rescue if they've
> already got themselves stranded).  In either way, can't hurt to also warn
> when approaching the conditional if the exact conditions aren't known to the
> consumer (ie, a wet road speed limit if the consumer can't/doesn't check the
> weather; or a variable speed limit if there's no way that the consumer can
> tell what the real limit is until the sign is seen, or that you're
> approaching a potential winter restriction or closure in winter so decisions
> can be made (anything from slowing down so a hidden speed bump doesn't rip a
> muffler off to not barreling into a wall of snow where winter maintenance
> ends).

In my area, the signage is usually: "Limited purpose seasonal-use
highway. No maintenance Dec 1-Apr 15." But those dates are very, very
flexible. I've seen the roads close by Hallowe'en in a year with a
heavy early snowfall (a light snow, and they'll still try to keep them
plowed outside the posted dates), or take well into
May to get them open again if the snowpack
is high or the rockslides have been bad. Similarly, I've seen them still
open until Christmas or opened again in late March. So I agree that a generic
"are you sure?" prompt is probably The Right Thing. The mountains
make their own weather, and we humans aren't very good at
scheduling around it.

So I agree that any conditional restriction that a routing&navigation
system doesn't understand merits an 'are you sure?'. And for that
reason, in many of these highly fuzzy cases, it doesn't do to get too
finely into the details. It actually is trying to remove responsibility from
the driver, where it belongs, and place it on the navigation system, which
generally lacks the information and judgment needed to make the
right call.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 3:03 AM, Michal Fabík  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > possibly something like 'motor_vehicle:conditional=winter_equipment @
> > winter'
>
> Technically, this looks fine, but is it really necessary to specify
> that winter equipment is required in winter? Besides, I'm not sure
> about the precise meaning of "winter" when using the opening times
> syntax, but in many countries, the restriction applies roughly from
> mid-autumn to mid-spring. If a consumer decides to interpret "winter"
> literally (21st Dec - 20 Mar), it's going to be off by a long margin.
>

I'm willing to have consumers err on the side of caution in such cases.
I'm pretty experienced with driving in almost all conditions North America
can throw at people.  The three things that still make me the most nervous
about driving are 1) winter travel, 2) open desert travel away from a
freeway, and 3) winter travel in the high desert.  These things aren't
exactly for the casual since it really doesn't take much for any of those
things to go from a boring drive to survival camping indefinitely in
extreme conditions.  So, when the information available to the consumer,
the consumer shouldn't suggest Granny drive from Butte to Boise via
Beartooth Pass in January.  Casual travelers can and have followed
automated directions to their deaths where desert and winter driving
conditions exist, so Asimov's First Law of Robotics is a very healthy
consideration for consumers.

Data consumers should at least prompt "do you really want to go with this
route?" during the winter on routes that are restricted in winter, and
reject on routes closed in winter (or at least throw an "are you sure?" on
winter road restrictions; after all, they could already be in trouble in
conditions where tracking their own path in isn't possible to get back out
(ie, after a blizzard), and being able to orient to a more reasonable
location for rescue might be the best opportunity for rescue if they've
already got themselves stranded).  In either way, can't hurt to also warn
when approaching the conditional if the exact conditions aren't known to
the consumer (ie, a wet road speed limit if the consumer can't/doesn't
check the weather; or a variable speed limit if there's no way that the
consumer can tell what the real limit is until the sign is seen, or that
you're approaching a potential winter restriction or closure in winter so
decisions can be made (anything from slowing down so a hidden speed bump
doesn't rip a muffler off to not barreling into a wall of snow where winter
maintenance ends).
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Mark Wagner]

On Wed, 1 Nov 2017 09:03:16 +0100
Michal Fabík  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > possibly something like 'motor_vehicle:conditional=winter_equipment
> > @ winter'  
> 
> Technically, this looks fine, but is it really necessary to specify
> that winter equipment is required in winter? Besides, I'm not sure
> about the precise meaning of "winter" when using the opening times
> syntax, but in many countries, the restriction applies roughly from
> mid-autumn to mid-spring. If a consumer decides to interpret "winter"
> literally (21st Dec - 20 Mar), it's going to be off by a long margin.

"Winter" is quite useful for situations where the times *aren't*
precise.  For example, roads around here come in three varieties:

1) Those maintained for winter travel.  In the cases I'm aware of,
winter equipment is only legally required when a sign beside the road
says so.

2) Those that are explicitly closed during the winter.  This closure
generally extends from the first deep snowfall to whenever the road
department can schedule a snowplow to go through in the spring.  It's
impossible to give precise dates for this.

3) Those not maintained for winter travel (and generally signed that
way).  It's legal to travel on one of these roads at any time, but a
wheeled vehicle is likely to get stuck, and you won't get a tow-truck
to pull you out until spring, making it a de-facto closure.  Unlike the
explicitly closed roads, these don't get plowed in spring, so the
effective opening date is wildly variable (and varies between vehicles).

A way of expressing "this road is impassible during a vaguely-defined
period of time" is quite useful to cover cases (2) and (3), while
"winter equipment may be required at certain unknown-in-advance times"
would be useful to cover case (1).

-- 
Mark

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-11-01 10:54 GMT+01:00 Michal Fabík :

> I don't think I understand. A traffic sign such as this
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_tire#/media/File:CZ-C15a_
> Zimn%C3%AD_v%C3%BDbava.png
> just says "winter equipment required". It's implied that the driver is
> supposed to know (or look up) when the requirement applies.



Here's an example with Italian signs:
https://www.sicurauto.it/upload/news_/8684/img/2038-cartelli-sperimentali-pneumatici-invernali.png

It says where it applies and when and says: either winter tyres or non-skid
chain.

Here's another one without temporal qualifiers:
http://www.rmastri.it/plugins/image_gallery/images/gallery/8194ca9513d72ed09adb11f0f3af.jpg

This is the German sign for obligatory non-skid chains:
https://www.avd.de/fileadmin/content/Bilder/Unterseiten/Recht/Content/Verkehrszeichen-268.png
According to administrative regulations, it may only be present at times
where the chains are required. It doesn't apply to motorbikes or bicycles
and it also implies a speed limit of 50kph.

In some countries there are default requirements for M+S tyres, in others
there aren't or are based on actual conditions. There's a nice summary for
Europe here (in German ;-) ):
https://www.avd.de/wissen/recht/verkehrsvorschriften-ausland/winterreifenpflicht/
This is something that likely falls under the "do not map the legal
situation without supporting real life objects" ban. Those sign-posted
prescriptions above don't (IMHO).

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Michal Fabík]

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> 2017-11-01 9:03 GMT+01:00 Michal Fabík :
>>
>>
>> Technically, this looks fine, but is it really necessary to specify
>> that winter equipment is required in winter?
>
>
>
> It really depends on the area. Clearly in Russia, you wouldn't have to tell
> anyone that winter equipment is required in winter, in Italy, you never need
> winter equipment in the lower elevations, but you will need it in the hills
> and mountains, hence they put up signs for the ignorant to remind them.

I don't think I understand. A traffic sign such as this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_tire#/media/File:CZ-C15a_Zimn%C3%AD_v%C3%BDbava.png
just says "winter equipment required". It's implied that the driver is
supposed to know (or look up) when the requirement applies. There's
going to be more signs at high-altitude roads and fewer to none in the
lowlands. No matter what the road's altitude is, it's always the
winter season when the winter equipment is required, not any other
season.

If the sign itself specifies a time range, then it makes sense to tag
that, otherwise I see no point.

If a country has a blanket rule that during such and such period all
vehicles on all roads must have winter equipment, there aren't going
to be any signs at particular roads, hence no tagging at all (we're no
tagging legislation).

Regards,

-- 
Michal Fabík

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-11-01 9:03 GMT+01:00 Michal Fabík :

>
> Technically, this looks fine, but is it really necessary to specify
> that winter equipment is required in winter?
>


It really depends on the area. Clearly in Russia, you wouldn't have to tell
anyone that winter equipment is required in winter, in Italy, you never
need winter equipment in the lower elevations, but you will need it in the
hills and mountains, hence they put up signs for the ignorant to remind
them.

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[José G Moya Y .]

El 1/11/2017 9:08, "Michal Fabík"  escribió:

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> possibly something like 'motor_vehicle:conditional=winter_equipment @
> winter'

Technically, this looks fine, but is it really necessary to specify
that winter equipment is required in winter?


In some countries, winter equipment is required to cross mountain passes
after a snowfall only. This is the situation here in Spain: a electronic
panel or hand operated signal informs you if the nearest mountain pass is
"open", "open for vehicles with winter equipment" or "closed".

In Spain we could only try to include some message to make drivers check
the signals in function of their route. Signals are placed in advance, but
usually placed when you can't choose an alternative route but go to the
nearest village and turn around.


Besides, I'm not sure
about the precise meaning of "winter" when using the opening times
syntax, but in many countries, the restriction applies roughly from
mid-autumn to mid-spring. If a consumer decides to interpret "winter"
literally (21st Dec - 20 Mar), it's going to be off by a long margin.


I've been stuck in the snow on May 1st, but the original message asks about
legal requirements and date values shown on signals.
That's the reason why people is asking how to insert access time along with
access conditions.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Michal Fabík]

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> possibly something like 'motor_vehicle:conditional=winter_equipment @
> winter'

Technically, this looks fine, but is it really necessary to specify
that winter equipment is required in winter? Besides, I'm not sure
about the precise meaning of "winter" when using the opening times
syntax, but in many countries, the restriction applies roughly from
mid-autumn to mid-spring. If a consumer decides to interpret "winter"
literally (21st Dec - 20 Mar), it's going to be off by a long margin.

Regards,

-- 
Michal Fabík

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Kevin Kenny]

>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_your_local_legislation.2C_if_not_bound_to_objects_in_reality
>> if there’s a sign “winter equipment required” it is bound to an object in 
>> reality.
> I'm not disputing that. I was commenting on Kevin Kenny's pointing out the
> "don't map your local legislation" rule in response to your question whether
> "we want to tag "winter equipment required" and this means
> different things in different jurisdictions, or if we set up a series of
> more atomic tags that spell out the implications of "winter equipment"."
>
> Bearing this rule in mind, it seems logical to only use
> "winter_equipment_required=yes" or "winter_equipment_required="
> (if the traffic signs specifies a time range), rather than tags for all the
> implications of winter equipment.

Exactly what I was trying to say. The sign reads, 'winter equipment required'
(or whatever). The local legislation defines what that is, and could be changed
by the legislature without needing to replace the sign. The sign exists
on the ground. It says what it says.

I can understand the argument that a navigation system might
conceivably want the definition in machine-readable form, but
eventually, we get to where we want a navigation system simply
to ask the driver, "the database says the road is restricted, do you
want to go there?" (as osmand does for private ways now). The old
paper road maps that used to be ubiquitous at gas stations usually
had some sort of symbol that represented "limited purpose or
seasonal road - inquire locally for conditions." We eventually
reach a point where "warn the driver and ask for confirmation"
would be the right answer even in OSM based systems.
It just isn't possible to encode all the conditions that the
human imagination keeps inventing.

Off topic: (feel free to stop reading here)

For that reason, there are a fair number of miles of wilderness trails
that I've entered, where I haven't troubled to try to invent tagging for
the local legislation, "snowshoes or skis required when snow depth
in treadway exceeds eight inches," even though that rule generally
appears in the long list of the rules at the trailhead.  It just felt too much
like "mapping the legislation" rather than "mapping the thing on the
ground."

Even further off topic: (this next bit I know is contentious)

That's why I've still not abandoned, "access=permit".
There are a lot of signs in my area that read, "access by permit
only", (where other signs from the same agencies say "entry
forbidden", or "public access allowed for the following purposes").
It's a thing that's visible on the sign. The details of the conditions
under which a permit is granted generally are NOT visible in
the field, although generally the signs have contact information.
I've been silent on that subject for a while just because I haven't
had time to Wikify a formal proposal. Too many other projects.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Warin]

On 01-Nov-17 01:18 AM, Michal Fabík wrote:

Hi,
from tomorrow on (until spring) some roads in Czechia (and other
countries, although the date may vary) will only be accessible to
vehicles with "winter equipment", i.e. the vehicle must be fitted with
snow or M+S tyres, plus it has to carry snow chains, tow rope and
possibly other related equipment, depending on jurisdiction.

I wanted to look up these roads but I didn't find any way of tagging
them in the wiki.

Taginfo search doesn't return much for "winter" or "tyre" either, so how about

winter_equipment=yes

or maybe

winter_equipment=


Is it a 'conditional restriction' ?

possibly something like 'motor_vehicle:conditional=winter_equipment@ winter'   
? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Michal Fabík 
wrote:

> On 31.10.2017 18:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 31. Oct 2017, at 16:31, Michal Fabík  wrote:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map
>>> _your_local_legislation.2C_if_not_bound_to_objects_in_reality
>>>
>>
>>
>> if there’s a sign “winter equipment required” it is bound to an object in
>> reality.
>>
>
> I'm not disputing that. I was commenting on Kevin Kenny's pointing out the
> "don't map your local legislation" rule in response to your question
> whether "we want to tag "winter equipment required" and this means
> different things in different jurisdictions, or if we set up a series of
> more atomic tags that spell out the implications of "winter equipment"."
>
> Bearing this rule in mind, it seems logical to only use
> "winter_equipment_required=yes" or "winter_equipment_required="
> (if the traffic signs specifies a time range), rather than tags for all the
> implications of winter equipment.
>

Perhaps something like...

access:conditional=no @ whenever
access:winter_equipped=yes @ whenever
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Michal Fabík]

On 31.10.2017 18:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone


On 31. Oct 2017, at 16:31, Michal Fabík  wrote:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_your_local_legislation.2C_if_not_bound_to_objects_in_reality



if there’s a sign “winter equipment required” it is bound to an object in 
reality.


I'm not disputing that. I was commenting on Kevin Kenny's pointing out 
the "don't map your local legislation" rule in response to your question 
whether "we want to tag "winter equipment required" and this means

different things in different jurisdictions, or if we set up a series of
more atomic tags that spell out the implications of "winter equipment"."

Bearing this rule in mind, it seems logical to only use 
"winter_equipment_required=yes" or 
"winter_equipment_required=" (if the traffic signs specifies 
a time range), rather than tags for all the implications of winter 
equipment.


Regards,

--
Michal Fabík

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 31. Oct 2017, at 16:31, Michal Fabík  wrote:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_your_local_legislation.2C_if_not_bound_to_objects_in_reality


if there’s a sign “winter equipment required” it is bound to an object in 
reality.

cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Kevin Kenny]

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Tod Fitch  wrote:
> So basically the spelling in the UK was ‘tire’ for a couple hundred years
> and they decided to change it in the case of rubber tires. If OpenStreetMap
> had started in 1900, we would use ’tire’ rather than ’tyre’. :)


I seem to recall that 'tyre' was adopted as British engineering usage
to avoid confusion with other senses of the word, 'tire,' similar to the
way that one of the engineering societies decreed that henceforth
'fuze' was to be used for the explosive initiator, while 'fuse' was to
be used for the electrical safety device.

In any case, I don't think that there's any real controversy that 'tyre'
is commonly accepted en_UK spelling.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Tod Fitch]

> On Oct 31, 2017, at 7:50 AM, Micah Cochran  wrote:
> 
> 
> Please check your spelling of tire. 
> 
> tyre is the correct British English spelling.
> 
> A tire (American English) or tyre (British English[...]) is a ring-shaped 
> component that surrounds a wheel's rim to transfer a vehicle's load from the 
> axle through the wheel to the ground and to provide traction on the surface 
> traveled over.
> 
> From the Wikipedia article on "Tire".  Thanks Wikipeida!
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire 
>  

Excerpt from my old microprint edition of the Oxford English Dictionary under 
the word “tire”:

> Probably the same word as prec., the tire being originally (sense 1) the 
> ‘attire’, ‘clothing’, or ‘accoutrement’ of the wheel. From 15th to 17th c. 
> spelt (like prec.) tire and tyre indifferently. Before 1700 tyre became 
> generally obsolete and tire remained as regular form, as it still does in 
> America; but in Great Britain tyre has been recently revived as the popular 
> term for the rubber rim of bicycle, tricycle, carriage, or motor-car wheels, 
> and is sometimes used for the steel tires of locomotive wheels.


So basically the spelling in the UK was ‘tire’ for a couple hundred years and 
they decided to change it in the case of rubber tires. If OpenStreetMap had 
started in 1900, we would use ’tire’ rather than ’tyre’. :)


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Michal Fabík]

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Kevin Kenny
 wrote:

> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_your_local_legislation.2C_if_not_bound_to_objects_in_reality

Thanks for pointing this out, I wasn't even quite aware of this. When
I suggested winter_equipment=yes and winter_equipment=, I
was thinking of the latter way as optional, to indicate the
country-wide time range. Thinking about it now, with the "don't map
your local legislation" in mind, I think I remember seeing traffic
signs that actually indicated the time range (I'm not sure in what
country it was though - can somebody confirm?). This second option
would then make sense for cases like that.

Regards,

-- 
Michal Fabík

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Kevin Kenny]

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 10:54 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> The question is if we want to tag "winter equipment required" and this means
> different things in different jurisdictions, or if we set up a series of
> more atomic tags that spell out the implications of "winter equipment".


We want to tag what the sign says. Or is "Don't map your local legislation,
if not bound to objects in reality," no longer considered best practice?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_your_local_legislation.2C_if_not_bound_to_objects_in_reality

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-10-31 15:39 GMT+01:00 Pander :

> On 10/31/2017 03:18 PM, Michal Fabík wrote:
> . Note that winter equipment might also cover snow chains
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_chains which is at some times
> compulsory on certain roads in winter. So a more detailed classification
> might be needed.




The question is if we want to tag "winter equipment required" and this
means different things in different jurisdictions, or if we set up a series
of more atomic tags that spell out the implications of "winter equipment".

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Micah Cochran]

>
>
>> Please check your spelling of tire.


tyre is the correct British English spelling.

A tire (American English) or tyre (British English[...]) is a ring-shaped
component that surrounds a wheel's rim to transfer a vehicle's load from
the axle through the wheel to the ground and to provide traction on the
surface traveled over.

>From the Wikipedia article on "Tire".  Thanks Wikipeida!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire


Micah Cochran
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Philip Barnes]

The original spelling is correct, OSM uses British English. Tire is American 
spelling.

Phil (trigpoint) 


On 31 October 2017 14:39:47 GMT+00:00, Pander  
wrote:
>On 10/31/2017 03:18 PM, Michal Fabík wrote:
>> Hi,
>> from tomorrow on (until spring) some roads in Czechia (and other
>> countries, although the date may vary) will only be accessible to
>> vehicles with "winter equipment", i.e. the vehicle must be fitted
>with
>> snow or M+S tyres, plus it has to carry snow chains, tow rope and
>> possibly other related equipment, depending on jurisdiction.
>>
>> I wanted to look up these roads but I didn't find any way of tagging
>> them in the wiki.
>>
>> Taginfo search doesn't return much for "winter" or "tyre" either, so
>how about
>>
>> winter_equipment=yes
>>
>> or maybe
>>
>> winter_equipment=
>Please check your spelling of tire. Note that winter equipment might 
>also cover snow chains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_chains which 
>is at some times compulsory on certain roads in winter. So a more 
>detailed classification might be needed.
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>
>
>___
>Tagging mailing list
>Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] winter tyres

[Pander]

On 10/31/2017 03:18 PM, Michal Fabík wrote:

Hi,
from tomorrow on (until spring) some roads in Czechia (and other
countries, although the date may vary) will only be accessible to
vehicles with "winter equipment", i.e. the vehicle must be fitted with
snow or M+S tyres, plus it has to carry snow chains, tow rope and
possibly other related equipment, depending on jurisdiction.

I wanted to look up these roads but I didn't find any way of tagging
them in the wiki.

Taginfo search doesn't return much for "winter" or "tyre" either, so how about

winter_equipment=yes

or maybe

winter_equipment=
Please check your spelling of tire. Note that winter equipment might 
also cover snow chains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_chains which 
is at some times compulsory on certain roads in winter. So a more 
detailed classification might be needed.


?

Regards,




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging