Re: [GTALUG] GRUB's DSL and looping

[Christopher Browne via talk]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 at 14:14, Lennart Sorensen via talk  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 02:09:00PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> > I don't think that's documented anywhere, and it doesn't strike me as being
> > in any way obvious.
>
> Well it's vaguely documented in that the module has a description.
> And it is totally not obvious that a module could change such behaviour
> in the first place.

Is there some place to push a documentation patch for that?

It's managed at Savannah, so there's a git repo, and it sure seems a
neat idea to augment it...

git clone git://git.savannah.gnu.org/grub.git

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Re: [GTALUG] GRUB's DSL and looping

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 02:09:00PM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
> I don't think that's documented anywhere, and it doesn't strike me as being
> in any way obvious.

Well it's vaguely documented in that the module has a description.
And it is totally not obvious that a module could change such behaviour
in the first place.

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Re: [GTALUG] GRUB's DSL and looping

[Giles Orr via talk]

On 25 July 2018 at 13:45, Lennart Sorensen via talk  wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 12:54:39PM -0400, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
> > There's probably a GRUB-specific mailing list or forum, but I thought I
> > would try here first ...
> >
> > GRUB has a DSL ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_language
> )
> > that looks a lot like shell scripting.  Most people never see it as it's
> > used to generate the menus we use at boot-time and they see only the
> menus,
> > but it can do some interesting things - particularly when you're dealing
> > with multi-boot USB sticks.  Here's a simple but slightly useful example:
> >
> > function cpuinfo {
> > # only able to determine: 32/64 bit, and is it PAE
> > echo "GRUB's ability to analyse processors is limited, we can only
> tell
> > you:"
> > if cpuid -p; then
> > pae_assessment="PAE"
> > else
> > pae_assessment="NO PAE"
> > fi
> > if cpuid -l; then
> > echo "64-bit processor, $pae_assessment"
> > else
> > echo "32-bit processor, $pae_assessment"
> > fi
> > }
> >
> > But it has some nasty limitations that are frustrating me:
> > - no pipes
> > - no command substitution
> > - no file globbing
>
> Actually it does file globbing if you load the regexp module.
>
> Apparently this works:
>
> insmod regexp
> for i in /boot/*; do echo $i; done
>
> Or:
>
> grub> ls /boot/*
> error: file `/boot/*' not found.
> grub> insmod regexp
> grub> ls /boot/*
> unicode.pf2 i386-pc/ locale/ fonts/ grubenv grub.cfg
> config-4.16.0-2-amd64
> ...
>

Thank you!

I don't think that's documented anywhere, and it doesn't strike me as being
in any way obvious.

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Re: [GTALUG] GRUB's DSL and looping

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 12:54:39PM -0400, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
> There's probably a GRUB-specific mailing list or forum, but I thought I
> would try here first ...
> 
> GRUB has a DSL ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_language )
> that looks a lot like shell scripting.  Most people never see it as it's
> used to generate the menus we use at boot-time and they see only the menus,
> but it can do some interesting things - particularly when you're dealing
> with multi-boot USB sticks.  Here's a simple but slightly useful example:
> 
> function cpuinfo {
> # only able to determine: 32/64 bit, and is it PAE
> echo "GRUB's ability to analyse processors is limited, we can only tell
> you:"
> if cpuid -p; then
> pae_assessment="PAE"
> else
> pae_assessment="NO PAE"
> fi
> if cpuid -l; then
> echo "64-bit processor, $pae_assessment"
> else
> echo "32-bit processor, $pae_assessment"
> fi
> }
> 
> But it has some nasty limitations that are frustrating me:
> - no pipes
> - no command substitution
> - no file globbing

Actually it does file globbing if you load the regexp module.

Apparently this works:

insmod regexp
for i in /boot/*; do echo $i; done

Or:

grub> ls /boot/*
error: file `/boot/*' not found.
grub> insmod regexp
grub> ls /boot/*
unicode.pf2 i386-pc/ locale/ fonts/ grubenv grub.cfg
config-4.16.0-2-amd64
...

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[GTALUG] GRUB's DSL and looping

[Giles Orr via talk]

There's probably a GRUB-specific mailing list or forum, but I thought I
would try here first ...

GRUB has a DSL ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_language )
that looks a lot like shell scripting.  Most people never see it as it's
used to generate the menus we use at boot-time and they see only the menus,
but it can do some interesting things - particularly when you're dealing
with multi-boot USB sticks.  Here's a simple but slightly useful example:

function cpuinfo {
# only able to determine: 32/64 bit, and is it PAE
echo "GRUB's ability to analyse processors is limited, we can only tell
you:"
if cpuid -p; then
pae_assessment="PAE"
else
pae_assessment="NO PAE"
fi
if cpuid -l; then
echo "64-bit processor, $pae_assessment"
else
echo "32-bit processor, $pae_assessment"
fi
}

But it has some nasty limitations that are frustrating me:
- no pipes
- no command substitution
- no file globbing

That last in particular is really getting on my nerves.  I want to source
all the files in one folder, but I can't say 'for file in folder/* ; do'
because the '*' is a literal character, no special meaning.  Likewise, I
can't say 'for file in `ls folder/` ; do' because there's no command
substitution.

I was wondering if anyone knows of a solution to this problem.  Or even if
you have ideas from long-gone old shells with similar limitations for which
someone worked out a nasty work-around ...  What I've been doing is 'for
file in name1 name2 name3 ... ; do', but of course this only works if you
remember to add new filenames to the list.

I've googled quite a bit, but most people only modify GRUB through
/etc/default/grub or, if they're really adventurous, through
/etc/grub.d/40_custom or similar.  What I'm looking for is (mostly) at a
lower level than that, and examples are surprisingly hard to come by.  And
search results are occasionally polluted by GRUB4DOS results ... GRUB4DOS
_does_ seem to support file globbing.  All very confusing.  Thanks.

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Re: [GTALUG] Messages are bouncing

[Alex Volkov via talk]

We also have a web interface for mailman, so you can check if you're 
messages are showing up there, since the default mailing list settings 
is not to receive your own emails.


https://gtalug.org/pipermail/talk/



On 2018-07-25 11:53 AM, James Knott via talk wrote:

Let me know if you don't receive this message.  ;-)


I sent it to both the list and you directly, so you can see if it got
through the list.

On 07/25/2018 11:49 AM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

I don't think I have received any messages from the list in about 2 weeks.
The only thing I have gotten is a message saying I have been removed due
to bounces (strangely that one didn't bounce).  No idea why that would
happen since other things work fine, including lkml which is notorious
for hating bouncing emails.

Anyone have any idea what could be going on?


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Re: [GTALUG] Messages are bouncing

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 11:53:38AM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> Let me know if you don't receive this message.  ;-)
> 
> 
> I sent it to both the list and you directly, so you can see if it got
> through the list.

Well I did get this one.

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Re: [GTALUG] Messages are bouncing

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 11:53:10AM -0400, Alex Volkov wrote:
> Hey Lennart,
> 
> That's spamhaus blacklisting us occasionally, your email service and about
> five other people (including myself) use spamhaus as a spam filtering
> service.
> 
> For some reason the messages coming from an IPv6 address to an IPv6 address
> have much higher chance of getting blacklisted.
> 
> Every-so-often I go to spamhaus and request delisting, I would also manually
> clear all the bounced accounts, but sometimes I forget to do that.

Oh joy.  Usually IPv6 is a good thing, I guess sometimes it isn't.

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Re: [GTALUG] Messages are bouncing

[James Knott via talk]

Let me know if you don't receive this message.  ;-)


I sent it to both the list and you directly, so you can see if it got
through the list.

On 07/25/2018 11:49 AM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
> I don't think I have received any messages from the list in about 2 weeks.
> The only thing I have gotten is a message saying I have been removed due
> to bounces (strangely that one didn't bounce).  No idea why that would
> happen since other things work fine, including lkml which is notorious
> for hating bouncing emails.
>
> Anyone have any idea what could be going on?
>

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Re: [GTALUG] Messages are bouncing

[Alex Volkov via talk]

Hey Lennart,

That's spamhaus blacklisting us occasionally, your email service and 
about five other people (including myself) use spamhaus as a spam 
filtering service.


For some reason the messages coming from an IPv6 address to an IPv6 
address have much higher chance of getting blacklisted.


Every-so-often I go to spamhaus and request delisting, I would also 
manually clear all the bounced accounts, but sometimes I forget to do that.


Alex.

On 2018-07-25 11:49 AM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

I don't think I have received any messages from the list in about 2 weeks.
The only thing I have gotten is a message saying I have been removed due
to bounces (strangely that one didn't bounce).  No idea why that would
happen since other things work fine, including lkml which is notorious
for hating bouncing emails.

Anyone have any idea what could be going on?



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[GTALUG] Messages are bouncing

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

I don't think I have received any messages from the list in about 2 weeks.
The only thing I have gotten is a message saying I have been removed due
to bounces (strangely that one didn't bounce).  No idea why that would
happen since other things work fine, including lkml which is notorious
for hating bouncing emails.

Anyone have any idea what could be going on?

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:08:47 -0400
Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:

> The dangers of doing this wrong now go beyond RBLs in the era of CASL and
> GDPR. Organizations are being fined.
> 
> One thing that is now part of best practices (ours at least) is to have as
> the very first paragraph of all mailings, a "You are receiving this because
> [...]" statement along with references to the list management and
> unsubscribe links below.

Evan,

   My manual system has an unsubscribe paragraph in the template.  I
had an interesting incident a couple of years ago.  Someone emailed and
asked to be removed from my list.  I emailed back that they were not on
my list.  It turned out they had an email alias that was on my list.  

   It helps if a human keeps an eye on this stuff.  I don't think I
have had problems with the authorities.  I have unsubscribe
instructions, and two email addresses with notes on how often they are
checked.

-- 
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jhowardgib...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[Alex Volkov via talk]

Hi Alvin,

gtalug mailing list periodically gets blacklisted by smamhaus on our 
IPv6 address, then I have to go to their website and de-list us, which 
takes a minute or two, but lately this started happening every other 
week or so, and it's been pretty annoying.


Alex.

On 2018-07-25 09:48 AM, ac via talk wrote:

Hi Alvin,

long time :)

Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending
verification emails?

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400
Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:


Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by
sending an activation message.
Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or
accidentally.
You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce
backs for email addresses that go away.

One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is that
responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the spammers
validate your email address.
Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get
black-listed.

Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a
small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site.
The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful
about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.



On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:

Hi Evan,

The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise for
unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of) and a
number of other abuse related issues.

Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do:
Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day max
three days)
Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe

never send any email from noreply@  I am not Google or Microsoft
(and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)

When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm your
request email

hth

Andre


On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400
Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:
  

Hi all.

This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list
about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system
using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and
I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you might
have in place to address this specific question:

When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences
or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for
changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions)
originate.

Does such administrative email come from:
a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff?
b) a postmaster-type alias?
c) a do-not-reply address?

​Any feedback is appreciated.​
  

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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[ac via talk]

hmm, no RBL should not list anyone for sending reasonable mailing 
list verification emails...  btw - I am still struggling to know what
the 'best practise' should be... (how many verification emails are
reasonable and over what period of time?)

anyway, among the varied types of RBL the two main categories are reporting 
and non reporting, where the reporting RBL sends you and abuse (with the
info stripped) a non reporting RBL sends you nothing. if you did
receive stripped out headers, from a reporting RBL (like for example
SpamCop) you will still have date & time, server name and various other
bits that could help you find it in your logs, depending on the RBL,
you can also contact the complainant and request additional info.
Often, if it is not a spamtrap or part of anything else, then they
should help you, as you could not have given them any reason not to :)
non reporting RBLs which are non automatic are the worst, more so if
they are dnsbl or black holes. (like the currents and the 
chronics: webiron dnsbl.ascams etc etc) - the easiest RBLS to work with
are the automatics (like rbldns.ru etc) either way ymmv :)

btw - phplist & mailman tags are also obtused, depending on service...
afaik spamcop does not obtuse phplist or mailman tags although some
others do - similarly, many abuse@ do not accept munged reports... 

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:56:11 -0400
Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:

> It was over a year ago and I believe that it was a case of someone
> who could not follow the unsubscribe message at the bottom or did not
> read that far and pushed the message to one of the RBL providers.
> 
> Another hint is to stick something in the mail message that will not
> get scrubbed by anonamizers if someone does post to an RBL.
> At least you can then find the offending client and remove them.
> Its a pain to have someone on your list that is pushing your messages
> to RBLs and not be able to remove them because the information you
> got from the RBL has all the usual tracking information removed.
> 
> On 07/25/2018 09:48 AM, ac via talk wrote:
> > Hi Alvin,
> >
> > long time :)
> >
> > Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending
> > verification emails?
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400
> > Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:
> >  
> >> Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by
> >> sending an activation message.
> >> Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or
> >> accidentally.
> >> You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce
> >> backs for email addresses that go away.
> >>
> >> One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is
> >> that responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the
> >> spammers validate your email address.
> >> Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get
> >> black-listed.
> >>
> >> Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a
> >> small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site.
> >> The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful
> >> about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:  
> >>> Hi Evan,
> >>>
> >>> The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise
> >>> for unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of)
> >>> and a number of other abuse related issues.
> >>>
> >>> Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do:
> >>> Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day
> >>> max three days)
> >>> Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe
> >>>
> >>> never send any email from noreply@  I am not Google or Microsoft
> >>> (and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)
> >>>
> >>> When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm
> >>> your request email
> >>>
> >>> hth
> >>>
> >>> Andre
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400
> >>> Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:
> >>> 
>  Hi all.
> 
>  This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list
>  about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system
>  using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman)
>  and I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you
>  might have in place to address this specific question:
> 
>  When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences
>  or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation
>  (for changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for
>  unsubscriptions) originate.
> 
>  Does such administrative email come from:
>  a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff?
>  b) a postmaster-type alias?
>  c) a do-not-reply address?
> 
>  ​Any feedback is appreciated.​
>  
> >>> ---
> >>> Talk Mailing List
> >>> talk@gtalug.org
> >>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk  
> > --

Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 at 10:14, Alvin Starr  wrote:

> That assumes that the users are reading the messages and are interested in
> taking action to get themselves removed.
> Which is why you want a tag in the message that you can use to track back.
> That and logs of all your subscribe an unsubscribe actions.
>

​​This is why we're using phplist rather than mailman, which does both of
those things.

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[Alvin Starr via talk]

That assumes that the users are reading the messages and are interested 
in taking action to get themselves removed.


Which is why you want a tag in the message that you can use to track back.
That and logs of all your subscribe an unsubscribe actions.


On 07/25/2018 10:08 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
The dangers of doing this wrong now go beyond RBLs in the era of CASL 
and GDPR. Organizations are being fined.


One thing that is now part of best practices (ours at least) is to 
have as the very first paragraph of all mailings, a "You are receiving 
this because [...]" statement along with references to the list 
management and unsubscribe links below.




On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 at 09:56, Alvin Starr via talk > wrote:


It was over a year ago and I believe that it was a case of someone
who
could not follow the unsubscribe message at the bottom or did not
read
that far and pushed the message to one of the RBL providers.

Another hint is to stick something in the mail message that will
not get
scrubbed by anonamizers if someone does post to an RBL.
At least you can then find the offending client and remove them.
Its a pain to have someone on your list that is pushing your
messages to
RBLs and not be able to remove them because the information you
got from
the RBL has all the usual tracking information removed.

On 07/25/2018 09:48 AM, ac via talk wrote:
> Hi Alvin,
>
> long time :)
>
> Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending
> verification emails?
>
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400
> Alvin Starr via talk mailto:talk@gtalug.org>>
wrote:
>
>> Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by
>> sending an activation message.
>> Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or
>> accidentally.
>> You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce
>> backs for email addresses that go away.
>>
>> One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom
is that
>> responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the
spammers
>> validate your email address.
>> Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get
>> black-listed.
>>
>> Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a
>> small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site.
>> The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful
>> about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:
>>> Hi Evan,
>>>
>>> The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best
practise for
>>> unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of)
and a
>>> number of other abuse related issues.
>>>
>>> Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do:
>>> Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per
day max
>>> three days)
>>> Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe
>>>
>>> never send any email from noreply@  I am not Google or Microsoft
>>> (and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)
>>>
>>> When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm
your
>>> request email
>>>
>>> hth
>>>
>>> Andre
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400
>>> Evan Leibovitch via talk mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi all.

 This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list
 about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system
 using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as
Mailman) and
 I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you might
 have in place to address this specific question:

 When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences
 or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation
(for
 changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions)
 originate.

 Does such administrative email come from:
 a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff?
 b) a postmaster-type alias?
 c) a do-not-reply address?

 ​Any feedback is appreciated.​

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>>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
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Netvel Inc.                   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net               ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

The dangers of doing this wrong now go beyond RBLs in the era of CASL and
GDPR. Organizations are being fined.

One thing that is now part of best practices (ours at least) is to have as
the very first paragraph of all mailings, a "You are receiving this because
[...]" statement along with references to the list management and
unsubscribe links below.



On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 at 09:56, Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:

> It was over a year ago and I believe that it was a case of someone who
> could not follow the unsubscribe message at the bottom or did not read
> that far and pushed the message to one of the RBL providers.
>
> Another hint is to stick something in the mail message that will not get
> scrubbed by anonamizers if someone does post to an RBL.
> At least you can then find the offending client and remove them.
> Its a pain to have someone on your list that is pushing your messages to
> RBLs and not be able to remove them because the information you got from
> the RBL has all the usual tracking information removed.
>
> On 07/25/2018 09:48 AM, ac via talk wrote:
> > Hi Alvin,
> >
> > long time :)
> >
> > Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending
> > verification emails?
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400
> > Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:
> >
> >> Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by
> >> sending an activation message.
> >> Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or
> >> accidentally.
> >> You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce
> >> backs for email addresses that go away.
> >>
> >> One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is that
> >> responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the spammers
> >> validate your email address.
> >> Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get
> >> black-listed.
> >>
> >> Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a
> >> small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site.
> >> The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful
> >> about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:
> >>> Hi Evan,
> >>>
> >>> The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise for
> >>> unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of) and a
> >>> number of other abuse related issues.
> >>>
> >>> Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do:
> >>> Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day max
> >>> three days)
> >>> Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe
> >>>
> >>> never send any email from noreply@  I am not Google or Microsoft
> >>> (and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)
> >>>
> >>> When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm your
> >>> request email
> >>>
> >>> hth
> >>>
> >>> Andre
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400
> >>> Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi all.
> 
>  This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list
>  about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system
>  using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and
>  I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you might
>  have in place to address this specific question:
> 
>  When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences
>  or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for
>  changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions)
>  originate.
> 
>  Does such administrative email come from:
>  a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff?
>  b) a postmaster-type alias?
>  c) a do-not-reply address?
> 
>  ​Any feedback is appreciated.​
> 
> >>> ---
> >>> Talk Mailing List
> >>> talk@gtalug.org
> >>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > ---
> > Talk Mailing List
> > talk@gtalug.org
> > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> --
> Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (905)513-7688
> Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
> al...@netvel.net  ||
>
> ---
> Talk Mailing List
> talk@gtalug.org
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


-- 
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch or @el56
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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[Myles Braithwaite 👾 via talk]

Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote on 2018-07-25 12:30 AM:

Hi all.

This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list about 
policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system using phplist 
(as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and I'm interested to 
know what policies or best practices you might have in place to address 
this specific question:


When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences or 
unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for changes) 
or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions) originate.


Does such administrative email come from:
a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff?
b) a postmaster-type alias?
c) a do-not-reply address?

​Any feedback is appreciated.​


I use the email that has been sending the campaign in the first place. 
Most email clients priorities the name over the subject so I might not 
recognize postmas...@company.com or do-no-re...@exmaple.com, but I would 
recognize John Smith because they are have been sending me email about a 
widget.

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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400
Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:

> Hi all.
> 
> This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list about
> policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system using phplist (as
> opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and I'm interested to know
> what policies or best practices you might have in place to address this
> specific question:
> 
> When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences or
> unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for changes) or
> "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions) originate.
> 
> Does such administrative email come from:
> a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff?
> b) a postmaster-type alias?
> c) a do-not-reply address?
> 
> ​Any feedback is appreciated.​

Evan,

   I run a website and email list for a hiking club.  I do everything
manually.  A do-not-reply address is good when you don't want people
replying to you.  If you want replies, you need to provide a meaningful
address.

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[Alvin Starr via talk]

It was over a year ago and I believe that it was a case of someone who 
could not follow the unsubscribe message at the bottom or did not read 
that far and pushed the message to one of the RBL providers.


Another hint is to stick something in the mail message that will not get 
scrubbed by anonamizers if someone does post to an RBL.

At least you can then find the offending client and remove them.
Its a pain to have someone on your list that is pushing your messages to 
RBLs and not be able to remove them because the information you got from 
the RBL has all the usual tracking information removed.


On 07/25/2018 09:48 AM, ac via talk wrote:

Hi Alvin,

long time :)

Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending
verification emails?

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400
Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:


Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by
sending an activation message.
Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or
accidentally.
You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce
backs for email addresses that go away.

One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is that
responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the spammers
validate your email address.
Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get
black-listed.

Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a
small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site.
The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful
about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.



On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:

Hi Evan,

The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise for
unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of) and a
number of other abuse related issues.

Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do:
Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day max
three days)
Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe

never send any email from noreply@  I am not Google or Microsoft
(and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)

When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm your
request email

hth

Andre


On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400
Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:
  

Hi all.

This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list
about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system
using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and
I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you might
have in place to address this specific question:

When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences
or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for
changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions)
originate.

Does such administrative email come from:
a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff?
b) a postmaster-type alias?
c) a do-not-reply address?

​Any feedback is appreciated.​
  

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--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (905)513-7688
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[ac via talk]

Hi Alvin, 

long time :)

Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending
verification emails?

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400
Alvin Starr via talk  wrote:

> Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by
> sending an activation message.
> Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or 
> accidentally.
> You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce
> backs for email addresses that go away.
> 
> One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is that 
> responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the spammers 
> validate your email address.
> Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get 
> black-listed.
> 
> Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a
> small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site.
> The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful
> about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.
> 
> 
> 
> On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:
> > Hi Evan,
> >
> > The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise for
> > unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of) and a
> > number of other abuse related issues.
> >
> > Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do:
> > Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day max
> > three days)
> > Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe
> >
> > never send any email from noreply@  I am not Google or Microsoft
> > (and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)
> >
> > When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm your
> > request email
> >
> > hth
> >
> > Andre
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400
> > Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:
> >  
> >> Hi all.
> >>
> >> This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list
> >> about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system
> >> using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and
> >> I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you might
> >> have in place to address this specific question:
> >>
> >> When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences
> >> or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for
> >> changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions)
> >> originate.
> >>
> >> Does such administrative email come from:
> >> a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff?
> >> b) a postmaster-type alias?
> >> c) a do-not-reply address?
> >>
> >> ​Any feedback is appreciated.​
> >>  
> > ---
> > Talk Mailing List
> > talk@gtalug.org
> > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk  
> 

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Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management

[Alvin Starr via talk]

Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by sending 
an activation message.
Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or 
accidentally.
You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce backs 
for email addresses that go away.


One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is that 
responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the spammers 
validate your email address.
Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get 
black-listed.


Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a small 
mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site.
The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful about 
the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.




On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:

Hi Evan,

The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise for
unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of) and a
number of other abuse related issues.

Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do:
Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day max
three days)
Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe

never send any email from noreply@  I am not Google or Microsoft
(and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)

When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm your
request email

hth

Andre


On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400
Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:


Hi all.

This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list about
policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system using
phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and I'm
interested to know what policies or best practices you might have in
place to address this specific question:

When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences or
unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for
changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions)
originate.

Does such administrative email come from:
a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff?
b) a postmaster-type alias?
c) a do-not-reply address?

​Any feedback is appreciated.​


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Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (905)513-7688
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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