Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2020-08-17 8:04 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:

I copied the MathML code from a site on MathML.  I want to learn it.


MathML isn't really designed to be human-writeable. It's mostly a 
presentational format. I wouldn't spend time on it.



If it works in Midori but not on Chrome, it doesn't work.  If it
works on Chrome but not on Midori, it is not reliable.


MathJax, then? It's a fairly sizeable JS library that renders TeX as 
inline equations. It works everywhere. It's not ideal, but it's what we 
have to live with if we want nice things.


Curiously, when I tried Midori, the MathML text came out really small, 
so it really depends on what fonts you have installed. otter-browser 
(seemingly the old Opera rendering library dusted off a bit) did a 
really nice job, but no font hinting, so eww.



I am posting articles prepared with LaTeX.  The HTML conversion
converts the equations to bitmaps.  These are reliable, however
crappy they look.


Bitmaps are illegible for people with vision impairments. Some of the 
nicer converters include the TeX source as alt text as a 
better-than-nothing fixup.


There are many converters, each with varying features. latex2html has 
been around for decades. latexml has some powerful features, but has 
gaps that might fail you. Pandoc works irritatingly well too. All have 
options for images, MathML, MathJax, ...


cheers,
 Stewart


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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Don Tai via talk 

| LaTex to svg? a bit better rendering, and at least renders well on all
| browsers.

The phrase "all browsers" is a bit political.  Especially if read as
"all browsers that matter".

If you think that I'm being silly, do consider "universal design" or
"accessibility".  Screen readers cannot help with SVG.  I would guess
(but don't know) that the raw MalthML code might be readable with a
screen reader.

lynx and links make some attempt to display Howard's examples.  They are 
different.  I'm not sure that either result is useful.---
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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Don Tai via talk]

LaTex to svg? a bit better rendering, and at least renders well on all
browsers.

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 20:04, Howard Gibson via talk 
wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 18:26:37 -0400
> Stewart Russell via talk  wrote:
> >
> > If you're auto-converting from TeX, try to do it as high up the
> conversion
> > chain as you can. By the time your doco has hit DVI, it's basically marks
> > on paper and any semantic information is lost. I don't think I've used
> DVI
> > files this century: I was an early adopter of pdftex, and I'm pretty sure
> > my TeX engine of choice these days is pdfxetex: straight to PDF, while
> also
> > supporting bidirectional fonts, OpenType variant glyph forms and (IIRC)
> > micro-justification of hyphenated pages. This little wrinkle pushes
> hyphens
> > slightly into the right margin. It looks much better. Also, since every
> > printing system I'm ever likely to use has a PDF document path
> (PostScript
> > is dead), it cuts out a lot of conversion and font hassle. PDF's just
> super
> > handy to have as a virtual paper format anyway. Dunno what I did before
> > CUPS, IPP and the cups-pdf virtual printer. Waste lots of paper, I
> suppose.
> >
> > cheers,
> >  Stewart
>
> Stewart,
>
>I copied the MathML code from a site on MathML.  I want to learn it.  I
> have not worked hard on it since.  As I noted during the meeting.  If it
> works in Midori but not on Chrome, it doesn't work.  If it works on Chrome
> but not on Midori, it is not reliable.
>
>I am posting articles prepared with LaTeX.  The HTML conversion
> converts the equations to bitmaps.  These are reliable, however crappy they
> look.
>
> --
> Howard Gibson
> hgib...@eol.ca
> jhowardgib...@gmail.com
> http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 18:26:37 -0400
Stewart Russell via talk  wrote:
> 
> If you're auto-converting from TeX, try to do it as high up the conversion
> chain as you can. By the time your doco has hit DVI, it's basically marks
> on paper and any semantic information is lost. I don't think I've used DVI
> files this century: I was an early adopter of pdftex, and I'm pretty sure
> my TeX engine of choice these days is pdfxetex: straight to PDF, while also
> supporting bidirectional fonts, OpenType variant glyph forms and (IIRC)
> micro-justification of hyphenated pages. This little wrinkle pushes hyphens
> slightly into the right margin. It looks much better. Also, since every
> printing system I'm ever likely to use has a PDF document path (PostScript
> is dead), it cuts out a lot of conversion and font hassle. PDF's just super
> handy to have as a virtual paper format anyway. Dunno what I did before
> CUPS, IPP and the cups-pdf virtual printer. Waste lots of paper, I suppose.
> 
> cheers,
>  Stewart

Stewart,

   I copied the MathML code from a site on MathML.  I want to learn it.  I have 
not worked hard on it since.  As I noted during the meeting.  If it works in 
Midori but not on Chrome, it doesn't work.  If it works on Chrome but not on 
Midori, it is not reliable.

   I am posting articles prepared with LaTeX.  The HTML conversion converts the 
equations to bitmaps.  These are reliable, however crappy they look. 

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Nicholas Krause via talk]

On 8/17/20 7:06 PM, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 18:56, Don Tai via talk > wrote:


This does not render properly using Tor, which is surprising, as Tor
is based on Firefox


That's odd. Tor Browser 8 is based on Firefox Quantum. But then, I don't 
know what fonts you have installed



Chromium also does not render properly.


Yeah, Chrom.* doesn't do MathML. You can't sell ads with MathML, hence 
it's not supported.



Seems there is a project to add it which doesn't surprise me considering
its a W3C standard: https://mathml.igalia.com/.


Nick


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--
Fundamentally an organism has conscious mental states if and only if 
there is something that it is like to be that organism--something it is 
like for the organism. - Thomas Nagel

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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Stewart Russell via talk]

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 18:56, Don Tai via talk  wrote:

> This does not render properly using Tor, which is surprising, as Tor is
> based on Firefox
>

That's odd. Tor Browser 8 is based on Firefox Quantum. But then, I don't
know what fonts you have installed


>
> Chromium also does not render properly.
>
>
Yeah, Chrom.* doesn't do MathML. You can't sell ads with MathML, hence it's
not supported.
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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Don Tai via talk]

This does not render properly using Tor, which is surprising, as Tor is
based on Firefox

Chromium also does not render properly.

http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/MathML.html

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 17:47, Seneca Cunningham via talk 
wrote:

>
>
> On Aug 17, 2020, at 17:27, Christopher Browne via talk 
> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 17:15, Howard Gibson via talk 
> wrote:
>
>>I brought this up at our last meeting and we discussed it.
>>
>>Officially, you can insert equations into your website using MathML.
>> Unfortunately, Google Chrome does not support this, so it does not work.  I
>> uploaded my MathML page to my website, and you can try it out.
>>
>>http://rev/~howard/hgibson2/MathML.html
>>
>
> A URL that seems to work better for those of us outside your network ;-)
> is this one:
> http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/MathML.html
>
> I'll note that the browsers I had handy were Firefox and Chrome; I concur
> with your comments on the handling of the quadratic equation.
>
> Those results are not extraordinarily surprising.  The one I'd wonder
> about is Safari; I would assume it doesn't support it.
>
>
> Safari handles those equations without any issue.  If you want to cause
> some Safari rendering errors, add a binomial coefficient.  Based off one of
> the links I put in the etherpad, Chrome used to support MathML.  It stopped
> after Google forked WebKit into Blink.
>
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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Stewart Russell via talk]

Hi Howard - I got your http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/MathML.html page looking
roughly how one might want it in Firefox. Note that this Firefox Quantum (
≥ v.57): all bets are off for older versions that use a different engine.

First off, the maths fonts on your system are probably crap. TeX Gyre will
do in a pinch, but STIX is prettier. They're in the fonts-stix package.

Secondly, Firefox considers mathematics a separate language. Consequently,
it has font size controls all its own. Mathematics is traditionally
typeset *very
slightly* smaller than the body text font, and with web typography's usual
lack of flair, Firefox sets them smaller still. Go into *Preferences*
→ *Language
and Appearance* → *Fonts and Colours*, then hit *Advanced …*. After that,
choose *Mathematics* in the *Fonts for* dropdown, and pick STIX a size or
two larger than your standard font.

☛ If there's one useful setting you take from this page, set your *Minimum
font size* to something less dismal than the tiny default. Your eyes will
thank you.

I've been using MathML happily since about 2002. I wasn't aware of
rendering problems. If Chrome chooses not to support an effectively ancient
and widespread standard, bad cess to 'em and I discard them.

If you're auto-converting from TeX, try to do it as high up the conversion
chain as you can. By the time your doco has hit DVI, it's basically marks
on paper and any semantic information is lost. I don't think I've used DVI
files this century: I was an early adopter of pdftex, and I'm pretty sure
my TeX engine of choice these days is pdfxetex: straight to PDF, while also
supporting bidirectional fonts, OpenType variant glyph forms and (IIRC)
micro-justification of hyphenated pages. This little wrinkle pushes hyphens
slightly into the right margin. It looks much better. Also, since every
printing system I'm ever likely to use has a PDF document path (PostScript
is dead), it cuts out a lot of conversion and font hassle. PDF's just super
handy to have as a virtual paper format anyway. Dunno what I did before
CUPS, IPP and the cups-pdf virtual printer. Waste lots of paper, I suppose.

cheers,
 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Nicholas Krause via talk]

On 8/17/20 5:27 PM, Christopher Browne via talk wrote:
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 17:15, Howard Gibson via talk > wrote:


    I brought this up at our last meeting and we discussed it.

    Officially, you can insert equations into your website using
MathML.  Unfortunately, Google Chrome does not support this, so it
does not work.  I uploaded my MathML page to my website, and you can
try it out.

http://rev/~howard/hgibson2/MathML.html


A URL that seems to work better for those of us outside your network ;-) 
is this one:

http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/MathML.html

I'll note that the browsers I had handy were Firefox and Chrome; I 
concur with your comments on the handling of the quadratic equation.


Those results are not extraordinarily surprising.  The one I'd wonder 
about is Safari; I would assume it doesn't support it.


There is an interesting list of browser support for MathML.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML

Apparently, at one time Opera *did* support it.  The set of other 
browsers that do have support are largely Mozilla derivatives.  (e.g. - 
ones like Camino, Galeon, Netscape (which was where Mozilla came from)).


The one other interesting one (in being "not like the others") is Amaya. 
https://www.w3.org/Amaya/    I'm quite surprised that they had a release 
as recently as 2012; I hadn't seen that one in YEARS!!! :-)

--
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question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"

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I've managed to get in rendering in Chromium but not Chrome on version 
84 which is the lastest chromium for Ubuntu. Thanks for mentioning

it through as its a pain to write certain math in a web browser.
The only nit is it seems that the Tex versions render better for
complex equations in terms of being similar to an actual textbook:
https://mdn.mozillademos.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/MathML_Project/MathML_Torture_Test$samples/MathML_Torture_Test?revision=1506691

If your trying to make it readable you may want to use something
that can render it in Tex like the mentioned MathJax if I recall
correctly.

Cheers,
Nick
--
Fundamentally an organism has conscious mental states if and only if 
there is something that it is like to be that organism--something it is 
like for the organism. - Thomas Nagel

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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Seneca Cunningham via talk]

> On Aug 17, 2020, at 17:27, Christopher Browne via talk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 17:15, Howard Gibson via talk  > wrote:
>I brought this up at our last meeting and we discussed it.  
> 
>Officially, you can insert equations into your website using MathML.  
> Unfortunately, Google Chrome does not support this, so it does not work.  I 
> uploaded my MathML page to my website, and you can try it out.  
> 
>http://rev/~howard/hgibson2/MathML.html 
> 
> 
> A URL that seems to work better for those of us outside your network ;-) is 
> this one: 
> http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/MathML.html 
> 
> 
> I'll note that the browsers I had handy were Firefox and Chrome; I concur 
> with your comments on the handling of the quadratic equation.
> 
> Those results are not extraordinarily surprising.  The one I'd wonder about 
> is Safari; I would assume it doesn't support it.

Safari handles those equations without any issue.  If you want to cause some 
Safari rendering errors, add a binomial coefficient.  Based off one of the 
links I put in the etherpad, Chrome used to support MathML.  It stopped after 
Google forked WebKit into Blink.



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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Re: [GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Christopher Browne via talk]

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 17:15, Howard Gibson via talk 
wrote:

>I brought this up at our last meeting and we discussed it.
>
>Officially, you can insert equations into your website using MathML.
> Unfortunately, Google Chrome does not support this, so it does not work.  I
> uploaded my MathML page to my website, and you can try it out.
>
>http://rev/~howard/hgibson2/MathML.html
>

A URL that seems to work better for those of us outside your network ;-) is
this one:
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/MathML.html

I'll note that the browsers I had handy were Firefox and Chrome; I concur
with your comments on the handling of the quadratic equation.

Those results are not extraordinarily surprising.  The one I'd wonder about
is Safari; I would assume it doesn't support it.

There is an interesting list of browser support for MathML.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML

Apparently, at one time Opera *did* support it.  The set of other browsers
that do have support are largely Mozilla derivatives.  (e.g. - ones like
Camino, Galeon, Netscape (which was where Mozilla came from)).

The one other interesting one (in being "not like the others") is Amaya.
https://www.w3.org/Amaya/I'm quite surprised that they had a release as
recently as 2012; I hadn't seen that one in YEARS!!! :-)
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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[GTALUG] MathML Support on the Internet

[Howard Gibson via talk]

   I brought this up at our last meeting and we discussed it.  

   Officially, you can insert equations into your website using MathML.  
Unfortunately, Google Chrome does not support this, so it does not work.  I 
uploaded my MathML page to my website, and you can try it out.  

   http://rev/~howard/hgibson2/MathML.html

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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