Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
thank you, Martha--very inberesting! -Original Message- From: Martha via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 6:52 AM To: via Talk Cc: Martha Subject: Fw: New: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Passing this along for all of us who are fans of Jeremy Curry. Martha R. IL Forwarded by Martha --- Original Message --- From:Ricky Enger To: Date:Fri, 5 Jul 2019 16:20:56 + Subject: New: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Hadley Presents Hadley Presents and a microphone with the braille ‘h’ appear in white on a black background, framed by red curtains ** A Conversation with Microsoft (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=dabef71dfc&e=62aae9bab1) Listen in as Ricky Enger chats with Microsoft’s Jeremy Curry, a Senior Program Manager with the Windows Accessibility team. New vision accessibility features are now available in Windows 10 for low vision and screen reader users. “...everybody is different, nobody is the same. And so having the ability to customize the color, and the size, and magnification...really help to make it a good experience for anybody on the low vision spectrum." Listen Now (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=4f04c828a1&e=62aae9bab1) Have a suggestion for a future episode? Email us at podc...@hadley.edu (mailto:podc...@hadley.edu) or call the Hadley Presents podcast line at (847) 784-2870 (tel:847-784-2870) ** Facebook (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=885a4ef869&e=62aae9bab1) ** Twitter (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=f248437e94&e=62aae9bab1) ** YouTube (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=6b1a877672&e=62aae9bab1) ** LinkedIn (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=64d0ae9d94&e=62aae9bab1) ** Hadley Logo - Braille "H" in teal square (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=c0133b70c6&e=62aae9bab1) 700 Elm Street Winnetka, Illinois 60093 800.323.4238 | ** hadley.edu (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=9bf9105e13&e=62aae9bab1) You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website. ** Unsubscribe from this list (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/unsubscribe?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=01363d0cec&e=62aae9bab1&c=a27bdccbda) - Original Message Ends -- Martha ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/krinke1968%40hotmail.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Glad to see Jeremy is with Microsoft, I think Doug is there to somewhere. Narrator keeps getting better and better, it may not be window eyes but it sure has that feel to it. Brenda Dictated and sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Patricia Krinke via Talk > wrote: > > thank you, Martha--very inberesting! > > -Original Message- > From: Martha via Talk > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 6:52 AM > To: via Talk > Cc: Martha > Subject: Fw: New: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > Passing this along for all of us who are fans of Jeremy Curry. > > Martha R. > IL > Forwarded by Martha > --- Original Message --- > From:Ricky Enger > To: > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 16:20:56 + > Subject: New: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > > Hadley Presents > > Hadley Presents and a microphone with the braille ‘h’ appear in white on a > black background, framed by red curtains > > > ** A Conversation with Microsoft > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=dabef71dfc&e=62aae9bab1) > > Listen in as Ricky Enger chats with Microsoft’s Jeremy Curry, a Senior > Program Manager with the Windows Accessibility team. New vision > accessibility features are now available in Windows 10 for low vision and > screen reader users. > > > “...everybody is different, nobody is the same. And so having the ability to > customize the color, and the size, and magnification...really help to make > it a good experience for anybody on the low vision spectrum." > > Listen Now > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=4f04c828a1&e=62aae9bab1) > Have a suggestion for a future episode? Email us at podc...@hadley.edu > (mailto:podc...@hadley.edu) or call the Hadley Presents podcast line at > (847) 784-2870 (tel:847-784-2870) > > > ** Facebook > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=885a4ef869&e=62aae9bab1) > ** Twitter > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=f248437e94&e=62aae9bab1) > ** YouTube > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=6b1a877672&e=62aae9bab1) > ** LinkedIn > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=64d0ae9d94&e=62aae9bab1) > ** Hadley Logo - Braille "H" in teal square > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=c0133b70c6&e=62aae9bab1) > > 700 Elm Street > Winnetka, Illinois 60093 > 800.323.4238 | ** hadley.edu > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=9bf9105e13&e=62aae9bab1) > > You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website. > ** Unsubscribe from this list > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/unsubscribe?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=01363d0cec&e=62aae9bab1&c=a27bdccbda) > - Original Message Ends > > -- > Martha > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/krinke1968%40hotmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/bjnite%40gmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Yup. Although MS didn't buy WE to put into the OS, it got the GW Micro employees. -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Brenda via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 5:25 PM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Brenda Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Glad to see Jeremy is with Microsoft, I think Doug is there to somewhere. Narrator keeps getting better and better, it may not be window eyes but it sure has that feel to it. Brenda Dictated and sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Patricia Krinke via Talk > wrote: > > thank you, Martha--very inberesting! > > -Original Message- > From: Martha via Talk > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 6:52 AM > To: via Talk > Cc: Martha > Subject: Fw: New: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > Passing this along for all of us who are fans of Jeremy Curry. > > Martha R. > IL > Forwarded by Martha > --- Original Message --- > From:Ricky Enger > To: > Date:Fri, 5 Jul 2019 16:20:56 +0000 > Subject: New: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > > Hadley Presents > > Hadley Presents and a microphone with the braille ‘h’ appear in white on a > black background, framed by red curtains > > > ** A Conversation with Microsoft > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=dabef71dfc&e=62aae9bab1) > > Listen in as Ricky Enger chats with Microsoft’s Jeremy Curry, a Senior > Program Manager with the Windows Accessibility team. New vision > accessibility features are now available in Windows 10 for low vision and > screen reader users. > > > “...everybody is different, nobody is the same. And so having the ability to > customize the color, and the size, and magnification...really help to make > it a good experience for anybody on the low vision spectrum." > > Listen Now > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=4f04c828a1&e=62aae9bab1) > Have a suggestion for a future episode? Email us at podc...@hadley.edu > (mailto:podc...@hadley.edu) or call the Hadley Presents podcast line at > (847) 784-2870 (tel:847-784-2870) > > > ** Facebook > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=885a4ef869&e=62aae9bab1) > ** Twitter > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=f248437e94&e=62aae9bab1) > ** YouTube > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=6b1a877672&e=62aae9bab1) > ** LinkedIn > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=64d0ae9d94&e=62aae9bab1) > ** Hadley Logo - Braille "H" in teal square > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=c0133b70c6&e=62aae9bab1) > > 700 Elm Street > Winnetka, Illinois 60093 > 800.323.4238 | ** hadley.edu > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=9bf9105e13&e=62aae9bab1) > > You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website. > ** Unsubscribe from this list > (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/unsubscribe?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=01363d0cec&e=62aae9bab1&c=a27bdccbda) > - Original Message Ends > > -- > Martha > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/krinke1968%40hotmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/bjnite%40gmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com ___ Any vie
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; Microsoft should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. If it had, it would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years ago and would not need to reinvent the wheels. I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, I'm sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping Microsoft to do the right thing! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Oh yes. Your right about that. Microsoft should have bought Window-Eyes then none of the mergers would have happened, Window-Eyes would have been the top screen reader in the world, JAWS would have dropped considerably, and we wouldn't have been in this situation with Vispero discontinuing it. -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 6:30 PM To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Cc: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; Microsoft should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. If it had, it would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years ago and would not need to reinvent the wheels. I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, I'm sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping Microsoft to do the right thing! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/skyt%40shaw.ca . For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
I wonder if W-E would have just been absorbed sooner had Microsoft bought them years ago. I can’t see Microsoft letting W-E be a standalone program. Maybe GW micro knew this and did not want to lose control of the program to Microsoft. The whole thing was very painful but maybe in the long run it will be a good thing because narrator may soon become as good as window eyes and maybe even better and if so, it will be included in Windows so no one will have to pay extra for it. We can’t change the past, but there is hope for the future. (I just wish we had the W-E support people to call when we needed help.) Brenda Dictated and sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 8:30 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk > wrote: > > Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; Microsoft > should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. If it had, it > would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years ago and would not need > to reinvent the wheels. > > I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, I'm > sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping Microsoft > to do the right thing! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/bjnite%40gmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Yup. Totally agree with you. It was painful indeed and your right we can't change the fast but we can hope for the future. Even JAWS is on the way out because it too is a legacy product and there is nothing new or interesting in it that interests me. -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Brenda via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 8:39 PM To: ukekearu...@valtdnet.com; Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Brenda Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility I wonder if W-E would have just been absorbed sooner had Microsoft bought them years ago. I can’t see Microsoft letting W-E be a standalone program. Maybe GW micro knew this and did not want to lose control of the program to Microsoft. The whole thing was very painful but maybe in the long run it will be a good thing because narrator may soon become as good as window eyes and maybe even better and if so, it will be included in Windows so no one will have to pay extra for it. We can’t change the past, but there is hope for the future. (I just wish we had the W-E support people to call when we needed help.) Brenda Dictated and sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 8:30 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk > wrote: > > Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; Microsoft > should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. If it had, it > would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years ago and would not need > to reinvent the wheels. > > I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, I'm > sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping Microsoft > to do the right thing! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/bjnite%40gmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/skyt%40shaw.ca. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
You said that JAWS is on the way out because there is nothing in it that interests you. Are you speaking that it is on the way out of the market? Unless Narrator or NVDA releases something huge of the next few updates I don't think that JAWS is on the way out. Thanks, Darrell -Original Message- From: Talk On Behalf Of Sky Mundell via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:23 AM To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Cc: Sky Mundell Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Yup. Totally agree with you. It was painful indeed and your right we can't change the fast but we can hope for the future. Even JAWS is on the way out because it too is a legacy product and there is nothing new or interesting in it that interests me. -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Brenda via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 8:39 PM To: ukekearu...@valtdnet.com; Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Brenda Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility I wonder if W-E would have just been absorbed sooner had Microsoft bought them years ago. I can’t see Microsoft letting W-E be a standalone program. Maybe GW micro knew this and did not want to lose control of the program to Microsoft. The whole thing was very painful but maybe in the long run it will be a good thing because narrator may soon become as good as window eyes and maybe even better and if so, it will be included in Windows so no one will have to pay extra for it. We can’t change the past, but there is hope for the future. (I just wish we had the W-E support people to call when we needed help.) Brenda Dictated and sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 8:30 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk > wrote: > > Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; > Microsoft should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. > If it had, it would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years > ago and would not need to reinvent the wheels. > > I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, > I'm sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping > Microsoft to do the right thing! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Fbjnite%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=DGvGvLxXKmH941BM47vR2F1e%2BtnvPsrTfrl31ae6yL8%3D&reserved=0. > For subscription options, visit > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C0 > 1%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 > %7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=6aeiVnHR%2F1nhN%2BvvznfV8Z > SUSZPI97EPhFYTe0UoOk8%3D&reserved=0 > List archives can be found at > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .window-eyes.com%2Fprivate.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01 > %7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a > aaa%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=1IhMfRCOKDZiMH6dZAT9mWFq%2B > 9ipynuX%2BZRNokUcHwk%3D&reserved=0 ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Fskyt%2540shaw.ca&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=UkRU5O4vWr%2FRpQ8G5%2FwOIHp%2FYbFPLCCRbQph6LKq8gU%3D&reserved=0. For subscription options, visit https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=6aeiVnHR%2F1nhN%2BvvznfV8ZSUSZPI97EPhFYTe0UoOk8%3D&reserved=0 List archives can be found at https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Fprivate.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065317361&sdata=cv6GjZODm6%2Bbpoeyc1Uf30O5wAu5oQCKsj4FWOto6wI%3D&am
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Well, they defenatly are putting their prices up high -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Bowles via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 11:07 PM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Darrell Bowles Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility You said that JAWS is on the way out because there is nothing in it that interests you. Are you speaking that it is on the way out of the market? Unless Narrator or NVDA releases something huge of the next few updates I don't think that JAWS is on the way out. Thanks, Darrell -Original Message- From: Talk On Behalf Of Sky Mundell via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:23 AM To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Cc: Sky Mundell Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Yup. Totally agree with you. It was painful indeed and your right we can't change the fast but we can hope for the future. Even JAWS is on the way out because it too is a legacy product and there is nothing new or interesting in it that interests me. -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Brenda via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 8:39 PM To: ukekearu...@valtdnet.com; Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Brenda Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility I wonder if W-E would have just been absorbed sooner had Microsoft bought them years ago. I can’t see Microsoft letting W-E be a standalone program. Maybe GW micro knew this and did not want to lose control of the program to Microsoft. The whole thing was very painful but maybe in the long run it will be a good thing because narrator may soon become as good as window eyes and maybe even better and if so, it will be included in Windows so no one will have to pay extra for it. We can’t change the past, but there is hope for the future. (I just wish we had the W-E support people to call when we needed help.) Brenda Dictated and sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 8:30 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk > wrote: > > Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; > Microsoft should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. > If it had, it would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years > ago and would not need to reinvent the wheels. > > I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, > I'm sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping > Microsoft to do the right thing! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Fbjnite%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=DGvGvLxXKmH941BM47vR2F1e%2BtnvPsrTfrl31ae6yL8%3D&reserved=0. > For subscription options, visit > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C0 > 1%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 > %7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=6aeiVnHR%2F1nhN%2BvvznfV8Z > SUSZPI97EPhFYTe0UoOk8%3D&reserved=0 > List archives can be found at > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .window-eyes.com%2Fprivate.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01 > %7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a > aaa%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=1IhMfRCOKDZiMH6dZAT9mWFq%2B > 9ipynuX%2BZRNokUcHwk%3D&reserved=0 ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Fskyt%2540shaw.ca&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=UkRU5O4vWr%2FRpQ8G5%2FwOIHp%2FYbFPLCCRbQph6LKq8gU%3D&reserved=0. For subscription options, visit https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=6aeiVnHR%2F1nhN%2BvvznfV8ZSUSZPI97EPhFY
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
That's true but have you also seen the home annual license? -Original Message- From: Talk On Behalf Of Sky Mundell via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 2:28 AM To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Cc: Sky Mundell Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Well, they defenatly are putting their prices up high -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Bowles via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 11:07 PM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Darrell Bowles Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility You said that JAWS is on the way out because there is nothing in it that interests you. Are you speaking that it is on the way out of the market? Unless Narrator or NVDA releases something huge of the next few updates I don't think that JAWS is on the way out. Thanks, Darrell -Original Message- From: Talk On Behalf Of Sky Mundell via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:23 AM To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Cc: Sky Mundell Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Yup. Totally agree with you. It was painful indeed and your right we can't change the fast but we can hope for the future. Even JAWS is on the way out because it too is a legacy product and there is nothing new or interesting in it that interests me. -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Brenda via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 8:39 PM To: ukekearu...@valtdnet.com; Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Brenda Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility I wonder if W-E would have just been absorbed sooner had Microsoft bought them years ago. I can’t see Microsoft letting W-E be a standalone program. Maybe GW micro knew this and did not want to lose control of the program to Microsoft. The whole thing was very painful but maybe in the long run it will be a good thing because narrator may soon become as good as window eyes and maybe even better and if so, it will be included in Windows so no one will have to pay extra for it. We can’t change the past, but there is hope for the future. (I just wish we had the W-E support people to call when we needed help.) Brenda Dictated and sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 8:30 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk > wrote: > > Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; > Microsoft should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. > If it had, it would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years > ago and would not need to reinvent the wheels. > > I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, > I'm sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping > Microsoft to do the right thing! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Fbjnite%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C50f07754b8684bbc0c3808d702a452d8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980777096554923&sdata=J6TOZLEQo2fQX%2FRRSwPhnGJiQck9KLrwbQ77FVpBaeI%3D&reserved=0. > For subscription options, visit > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C0 > 1%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 > %7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=6aeiVnHR%2F1nhN%2BvvznfV8Z > SUSZPI97EPhFYTe0UoOk8%3D&reserved=0 > List archives can be found at > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .window-eyes.com%2Fprivate.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01 > %7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a > aaa%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=1IhMfRCOKDZiMH6dZAT9mWFq%2B > 9ipynuX%2BZRNokUcHwk%3D&reserved=0 ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Fskyt%2540shaw.ca&data=02%7C01%7C%7C50f07754b8684bbc0c3808d702a452d8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980777096564934&sdata=FXu7jsg65tThqiIVRnZaOj8dz%2FhAHXFD%2BDBaloxofZI%3D&reserved=0. For subscription options, visit https://eur01.safe
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Oh yes. I defenatly have. -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Bowles via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 11:30 PM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Darrell Bowles Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility That's true but have you also seen the home annual license? -Original Message- From: Talk On Behalf Of Sky Mundell via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 2:28 AM To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Cc: Sky Mundell Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Well, they defenatly are putting their prices up high -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Bowles via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 11:07 PM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Darrell Bowles Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility You said that JAWS is on the way out because there is nothing in it that interests you. Are you speaking that it is on the way out of the market? Unless Narrator or NVDA releases something huge of the next few updates I don't think that JAWS is on the way out. Thanks, Darrell -Original Message- From: Talk On Behalf Of Sky Mundell via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:23 AM To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Cc: Sky Mundell Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Yup. Totally agree with you. It was painful indeed and your right we can't change the fast but we can hope for the future. Even JAWS is on the way out because it too is a legacy product and there is nothing new or interesting in it that interests me. -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Brenda via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 8:39 PM To: ukekearu...@valtdnet.com; Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Brenda Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility I wonder if W-E would have just been absorbed sooner had Microsoft bought them years ago. I can’t see Microsoft letting W-E be a standalone program. Maybe GW micro knew this and did not want to lose control of the program to Microsoft. The whole thing was very painful but maybe in the long run it will be a good thing because narrator may soon become as good as window eyes and maybe even better and if so, it will be included in Windows so no one will have to pay extra for it. We can’t change the past, but there is hope for the future. (I just wish we had the W-E support people to call when we needed help.) Brenda Dictated and sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 8:30 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk > wrote: > > Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; > Microsoft should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. > If it had, it would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years > ago and would not need to reinvent the wheels. > > I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, > I'm sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping > Microsoft to do the right thing! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.window-eyes.com%2Foptions.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com%2Fbjnite%2540gmail.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C50f07754b8684bbc0c3808d702a452d8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636980777096554923&sdata=J6TOZLEQo2fQX%2FRRSwPhnGJiQck9KLrwbQ77FVpBaeI%3D&reserved=0. > For subscription options, visit > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .window-eyes.com%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C0 > 1%7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 > %7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=6aeiVnHR%2F1nhN%2BvvznfV8Z > SUSZPI97EPhFYTe0UoOk8%3D&reserved=0 > List archives can be found at > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists > .window-eyes.com%2Fprivate.cgi%2Ftalk-window-eyes.com&data=02%7C01 > %7C%7C8b910f5f15564f5f12bf08d70292db02%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a > aaa%7C1%7C0%7C636980702065307368&sdata=1IhMfRCOKDZiMH6dZAT9mWFq%2B > 9ipynuX%2BZRNokUcHwk%3D&reserved=0 ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.wind
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of them. Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have camped with it for the next 5 or 10 years. My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a somehow working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform anything much more than just read the screen to you, you will be offered to pay $19.95 a month; or, in case you want the Professional version with some basic scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great to see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. Hence, whatever good the screen reader might be on your cellphone or tablet, will you please consider comparing your activity on these units, as well as your productivity - and then come back telling me these screen readers are to be compared with WinEyes for one. But if now, Google and Apple - both being really big industries, and even somehow passed by Microsoft in market sharing - has never got anything better than this, why would you expect Microsoft to be. As MS are loosing market, they doubtfully will put too much into a screen reader. After all, it is not the screen reader that will sell. On the other hand, as Google and Apple has climbed the ladder of the market, you would somehow have expected them to have invested more in their screen readers. What is it you think MS will be doing different? Sorry, I did not mean to be critical, or to put anyone down. I just meant to point out the realities of today. Business is business; and it is all about money. As the electronic devices have dropped in price, noone wants to pay 5 times the electronic price, for their software to be able to run the device. Meaning, the software industry cannot charge you a shirt, a jacket and five pairs of shoes -just to leave you the license for turning on your computer. Why we see more and more subscription-based products. Even now aday, the pricing of the Windows license soon will be higher than the price of buying just a brand new computer, with a somehow restricted license on it. Use it for two or three years, till the poor quality breaks, and then throw it away and go get yourself a new one. Or, like Office, make people pay you a fortune over the life-span of the product, by charging them that little each month, that they do not know you are draining their bank account. As an interesting side-track here, might I take the opportunity to tell you all something from locally? You know, some cellphone operators offer you a mid-range phone, for a quite reduced price. Only fish-hook of it all, you have to subscribe for a given service, for the next 24 months or something of that sort. Over here, the authorities have decided that when they advertise for this kind of products, they will have to show you the GRAND TOTAL, phone price and all the months subscription costs summed up. And they have to do this right there in the advertisement. When you sit down and look at it, it often turns out the deal is not good at all. You thought you got a cheap phone, and perhaps you did. But they knew to charge you the price-reduction and all interests plus a good deal more, through your *tiny* little monthly subscriptions. Will be interesting to see what happens to Narrator. Another thing of course is, that some rumors want it that Win10 is perhaps the last Windows version ever. And if so, do you think MS are going to spend too much on a product that will go down the drain anyway? Just some thoughts. David On 7/7/2019 5:39 AM, Brenda via Talk wrote: > I wonder if W-E would have ju
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
I remember, many years ago, somebody sent out an April Fools email that said Microsoft was buying GW Micro, then they said "April fools!" A while later, they teamed up with Microsoft so you could get a free window eyes if you purchased MS Office. So, that made it sound like it was starting to actually become a reality. But in the end, I think the free window eyes is what made GW Micro go down the tubes. Pam. -Original Message- From: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 9:30 PM To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Cc: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; Microsoft should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. If it had, it would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years ago and would not need to reinvent the wheels. I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, I'm sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping Microsoft to do the right thing! Sincerely, Olusegun Denver, Colorado ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/pammygirl99%40gmail.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
mention that there are blind people on this earth. How many times, for instance, have you asked someone to describe a product over the phone or by Email, only to get the reply: "Look at the picture." It simply does not occur to most people, that less able-bodied persons lead a close to normal life. No complaint here. Simply just trying to illustrate the fact, that dreaming of anyone making too much out of accessibility, hardly ever will turn out to be anything but illussive dreams. Fun to dream, but just keep in mind that life is about realities. Smiles. David On 7/7/2019 6:55 PM, Pamela Dominguez via Talk wrote: > I remember, many years ago, somebody sent out an April Fools email > that said Microsoft was buying GW Micro, then they said "April > fools!" A while later, they teamed up with Microsoft so you could get > a free window eyes if you purchased MS Office. So, that made it sound > like it was starting to actually become a reality. But in the end, I > think the free window eyes is what made GW Micro go down the tubes. Pam. > > -Original Message- From: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, > Inc. via Talk > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 9:30 PM > To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' > Cc: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. > Subject: RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > Sky, perhaps I am terribly selfish, stupid, and a fool to boot; Microsoft > should have bought Window-Eyes for integration into Windows. If it > had, it > would have had a TALKING INSTALLER more than 25 years ago and would > not need > to reinvent the wheels. > > I'm always dreaming, I just hope I don't fall off the cliff. Anyhow, I'm > sure glad that GW Micro staff are over there teaching and helping > Microsoft > to do the right thing! > > Sincerely, > Olusegun > Denver, Colorado > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/pammygirl99%40gmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > ___ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > . > ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
The latest version of Narrator in Windows 1903 is very good. It has gotten me through some things that JAWS could not. - Original Message - From: "David via Talk" To: "Window-Eyes Discussion List" ; Cc: "David" Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of them. Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have camped with it for the next 5 or 10 years. My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a somehow working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform anything much more than just read the screen to you, you will be offered to pay $19.95 a month; or, in case you want the Professional version with some basic scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great to see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. Hence, whatever good the screen reader might be on your cellphone or tablet, will you please consider comparing your activity on these units, as well as your productivity - and then come back telling me these screen readers are to be compared with WinEyes for one. But if now, Google and Apple - both being really big industries, and even somehow passed by Microsoft in market sharing - has never got anything better than this, why would you expect Microsoft to be. As MS are loosing market, they doubtfully will put too much into a screen reader. After all, it is not the screen reader that will sell. On the other hand, as Google and Apple has climbed the ladder of the market, you would somehow have expected them to have invested more in their screen readers. What is it you think MS will be doing different? Sorry, I did not mean to be critical, or to put anyone down. I just meant to point out the realities of today. Business is business; and it is all about money. As the electronic devices have dropped in price, noone wants to pay 5 times the electronic price, for their software to be able to run the device. Meaning, the software industry cannot charge you a shirt, a jacket and five pairs of shoes -just to leave you the license for turning on your computer. Why we see more and more subscription-based products. Even now aday, the pricing of the Windows license soon will be higher than the price of buying just a brand new computer, with a somehow restricted license on it. Use it for two or three years, till the poor quality breaks, and then throw it away and go get yourself a new one. Or, like Office, make people pay you a fortune over the life-span of the product, by charging them that little each month, that they do not know you are draining their bank account. As an interesting side-track here, might I take the opportunity to tell you all something from locally? You know, some cellphone operators offer you a mid-range phone, for a quite reduced price. Only fish-hook of it all, you have to subscribe for a given service, for the next 24 months or something of that sort. Over here, the authorities have decided that when they advertise for this kind of products, they will have to show you the GRAND TOTAL, phone price and all the months subscription costs summed up. And they have to do this right there in the advertisement. When you sit down and look at it, it often turns out the deal is not good at all. You thought you got a cheap phone, and perhaps you did. But they knew to charge you the price-reduction and all interests plus a good deal more, through your *tiny* little monthly subscriptions. Will be interesting to see what happens to Narrator. Anot
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
No, Narrator does not yet compare to Window-Eyes, NVDA, or JAWS. But a lot of work has been done on it and it is a pretty capable screen reader for the average user today. And be it that both Doug Geoffray and Ron Parker (the two main developers from GW-Micro) are there, I assume they're looking to do a little more than give it a facelift. The real problem was Bill Gates. Our needs had no priority all the years he was at the helm. Most of what was done for accessibility was done under pressure from differing directions. However, since Satya Nadella took over the helm, accessibility became a real priority and there has been a sweeping change across the entire enterprise on awareness and incorporating accessibility into the development process. There has been an enormous amount of work done on accessibility in product lines such as Office and the Visual Studio programming environment. Whether one purchases or subscribes to Office is their choice. For some (blind or not) the small monthly or annual payments is the difference between getting it and not getting it. Microsoft will never sell Narrator. They would be publicly shamed. And the market is too small to make a difference to a company that large anyway. I'm not a fan of Apple's VoiceOver. But it is scriptable in some manner. I have a friend who owns a recording studio in New York city and is running purely on Macs. That is work that is far beyond that of the average user. So, from my perspective, the world isn't quite so bleak and out to get us. On 7/7/2019 10:07 AM, David via Talk wrote: Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of them. Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have camped with it for the next 5 or 10 years. My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a somehow working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform anything much more than just read the screen to you, you will be offered to pay $19.95 a month; or, in case you want the Professional version with some basic scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great to see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. Hence, whatever good the screen reader might be on your cellphone or tablet, will you please consider comparing your activity on these units, as well as your productivity - and then come back telling me these screen readers are to be compared with WinEyes for one. But if now, Google and Apple - both being really big industries, and even somehow passed by Microsoft in market sharing - has never got anything better than this, why would you expect Microsoft to be. As MS are loosing market, they doubtfully will put too much into a screen reader. After all, it is not the screen reader that will sell. On the other hand, as Google and Apple has climbed the ladder of the market, you would somehow have expected them to have invested more in their screen readers. What is it you think MS will be doing different? Sorry, I did not mean to be critical, or to put anyone down. I just meant to point out the realities of today. Business is business; and it is all about money. As the electronic devices have dropped in price, noone wants to pay 5 times the electronic price, for their software to be able to run the device. Meaning, the software industry cannot charge you a shirt, a jacket and five pairs of shoes -just to leave you the license for turning on your computer. Why we see more and more subscription-based products. Even now aday, the pricing of the Windows license soon will be higher than the price of buying just a brand new computer, with a somehow restricted
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Nice! I think I know your friend Tom. Isn't your friend Jerry Haliton, AKA Slau? -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 5:57 PM To: David via Talk Cc: Tom Kingston Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility No, Narrator does not yet compare to Window-Eyes, NVDA, or JAWS. But a lot of work has been done on it and it is a pretty capable screen reader for the average user today. And be it that both Doug Geoffray and Ron Parker (the two main developers from GW-Micro) are there, I assume they're looking to do a little more than give it a facelift. The real problem was Bill Gates. Our needs had no priority all the years he was at the helm. Most of what was done for accessibility was done under pressure from differing directions. However, since Satya Nadella took over the helm, accessibility became a real priority and there has been a sweeping change across the entire enterprise on awareness and incorporating accessibility into the development process. There has been an enormous amount of work done on accessibility in product lines such as Office and the Visual Studio programming environment. Whether one purchases or subscribes to Office is their choice. For some (blind or not) the small monthly or annual payments is the difference between getting it and not getting it. Microsoft will never sell Narrator. They would be publicly shamed. And the market is too small to make a difference to a company that large anyway. I'm not a fan of Apple's VoiceOver. But it is scriptable in some manner. I have a friend who owns a recording studio in New York city and is running purely on Macs. That is work that is far beyond that of the average user. So, from my perspective, the world isn't quite so bleak and out to get us. On 7/7/2019 10:07 AM, David via Talk wrote: > Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. > And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so > perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to > have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. > Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these > even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a > certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are > included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. > I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of > them. > > > Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, > without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we > judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much > welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you > don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but > rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single > month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have > bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have camped > with it for the next 5 or 10 years. > > > My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a somehow > working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform anything much > more than just read the screen to you, you will be offered to pay $19.95 > a month; or, in case you want the Professional version with some basic > scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. > > > I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great to > see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. > Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. > And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, > which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. Hence, > whatever good the screen reader might be on your cellphone or tablet, > will you please consider comparing your activity on these units, as well > as your productivity - and then come back telling me these screen > readers are to be compared with WinEyes for one. But if now, Google and > Apple - both being really big industries, and even somehow passed by > Microsoft in market sharing - has never got anything better than this, > why would you expect Microsoft to be. As MS are loosing market, they > doubtfully will put too much into a screen reader. After all, it is not > the screen reader that will sell. On the other hand, as Google and Apple > has climbed the ladder of the market, you would somehow have expected > them to have invested more in their screen readers. What is it you think > MS will be doing different? > > > Sorry, I did not mean
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Hey Sky, Slau is indeed the man at the B Flat recording studio. I met him probably twenty-some years ago. Regards, Tom On 7/7/2019 9:38 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: Nice! I think I know your friend Tom. Isn't your friend Jerry Haliton, AKA Slau? -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 5:57 PM To: David via Talk Cc: Tom Kingston Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility No, Narrator does not yet compare to Window-Eyes, NVDA, or JAWS. But a lot of work has been done on it and it is a pretty capable screen reader for the average user today. And be it that both Doug Geoffray and Ron Parker (the two main developers from GW-Micro) are there, I assume they're looking to do a little more than give it a facelift. The real problem was Bill Gates. Our needs had no priority all the years he was at the helm. Most of what was done for accessibility was done under pressure from differing directions. However, since Satya Nadella took over the helm, accessibility became a real priority and there has been a sweeping change across the entire enterprise on awareness and incorporating accessibility into the development process. There has been an enormous amount of work done on accessibility in product lines such as Office and the Visual Studio programming environment. Whether one purchases or subscribes to Office is their choice. For some (blind or not) the small monthly or annual payments is the difference between getting it and not getting it. Microsoft will never sell Narrator. They would be publicly shamed. And the market is too small to make a difference to a company that large anyway. I'm not a fan of Apple's VoiceOver. But it is scriptable in some manner. I have a friend who owns a recording studio in New York city and is running purely on Macs. That is work that is far beyond that of the average user. So, from my perspective, the world isn't quite so bleak and out to get us. On 7/7/2019 10:07 AM, David via Talk wrote: Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of them. Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have camped with it for the next 5 or 10 years. My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a somehow working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform anything much more than just read the screen to you, you will be offered to pay $19.95 a month; or, in case you want the Professional version with some basic scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great to see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. Hence, whatever good the screen reader might be on your cellphone or tablet, will you please consider comparing your activity on these units, as well as your productivity - and then come back telling me these screen readers are to be compared with WinEyes for one. But if now, Google and Apple - both being really big industries, and even somehow passed by Microsoft in market sharing - has never got anything better than this, why would you expect Microsoft to be. As MS are loosing market, they doubtfully will put too much into a screen reader. After all, it is not the screen reader that will sell. On the other hand, as Google and Apple has climbed the ladder of the market, you would somehow have expected them to have invested more in their screen readers. What is it you think MS will be doing different? Sorry, I did not mean to be critical, or to put anyone down. I just meant to point out the realities of today. B
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Nice! Is their a website where I can go and look up his studio? And does he make a living as a recording engineer? -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:12 PM To: Sky Mundell via Talk Cc: Tom Kingston Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Hey Sky, Slau is indeed the man at the B Flat recording studio. I met him probably twenty-some years ago. Regards, Tom On 7/7/2019 9:38 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: > Nice! I think I know your friend Tom. Isn't your friend Jerry Haliton, AKA > Slau? > > -Original Message- > From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf > Of Tom Kingston via Talk > Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 5:57 PM > To: David via Talk > Cc: Tom Kingston > Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > No, Narrator does not yet compare to Window-Eyes, NVDA, or JAWS. But a > lot of work has been done on it and it is a pretty capable screen reader > for the average user today. And be it that both Doug Geoffray and Ron > Parker (the two main developers from GW-Micro) are there, I assume > they're looking to do a little more than give it a facelift. > > The real problem was Bill Gates. Our needs had no priority all the years > he was at the helm. Most of what was done for accessibility was done > under pressure from differing directions. However, since Satya Nadella > took over the helm, accessibility became a real priority and there has > been a sweeping change across the entire enterprise on awareness and > incorporating accessibility into the development process. There has been > an enormous amount of work done on accessibility in product lines such > as Office and the Visual Studio programming environment. > > Whether one purchases or subscribes to Office is their choice. For some > (blind or not) the small monthly or annual payments is the difference > between getting it and not getting it. > > Microsoft will never sell Narrator. They would be publicly shamed. And > the market is too small to make a difference to a company that large anyway. > > I'm not a fan of Apple's VoiceOver. But it is scriptable in some manner. > I have a friend who owns a recording studio in New York city and is > running purely on Macs. That is work that is far beyond that of the > average user. > > So, from my perspective, the world isn't quite so bleak and out to get us. > > > On 7/7/2019 10:07 AM, David via Talk wrote: >> Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. >> And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so >> perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to >> have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. >> Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these >> even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a >> certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are >> included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. >> I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of >> them. >> >> >> Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, >> without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we >> judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much >> welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you >> don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but >> rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single >> month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have >> bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have camped >> with it for the next 5 or 10 years. >> >> >> My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a somehow >> working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform anything much >> more than just read the screen to you, you will be offered to pay $19.95 >> a month; or, in case you want the Professional version with some basic >> scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. >> >> >> I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great to >> see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. >> Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. >> And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, >> which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. Hence, >> whatever g
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Hmm. I thought I had a link to his site. But I haven't been there in ages and couldn't find it. We mainly talked on and off a mailing list. Sorry about that. But yes, he made his living at the studio. On 7/7/2019 10:14 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: Nice! Is their a website where I can go and look up his studio? And does he make a living as a recording engineer? -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:12 PM To: Sky Mundell via Talk Cc: Tom Kingston Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Hey Sky, Slau is indeed the man at the B Flat recording studio. I met him probably twenty-some years ago. Regards, Tom On 7/7/2019 9:38 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: Nice! I think I know your friend Tom. Isn't your friend Jerry Haliton, AKA Slau? -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 5:57 PM To: David via Talk Cc: Tom Kingston Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility No, Narrator does not yet compare to Window-Eyes, NVDA, or JAWS. But a lot of work has been done on it and it is a pretty capable screen reader for the average user today. And be it that both Doug Geoffray and Ron Parker (the two main developers from GW-Micro) are there, I assume they're looking to do a little more than give it a facelift. The real problem was Bill Gates. Our needs had no priority all the years he was at the helm. Most of what was done for accessibility was done under pressure from differing directions. However, since Satya Nadella took over the helm, accessibility became a real priority and there has been a sweeping change across the entire enterprise on awareness and incorporating accessibility into the development process. There has been an enormous amount of work done on accessibility in product lines such as Office and the Visual Studio programming environment. Whether one purchases or subscribes to Office is their choice. For some (blind or not) the small monthly or annual payments is the difference between getting it and not getting it. Microsoft will never sell Narrator. They would be publicly shamed. And the market is too small to make a difference to a company that large anyway. I'm not a fan of Apple's VoiceOver. But it is scriptable in some manner. I have a friend who owns a recording studio in New York city and is running purely on Macs. That is work that is far beyond that of the average user. So, from my perspective, the world isn't quite so bleak and out to get us. On 7/7/2019 10:07 AM, David via Talk wrote: Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of them. Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have camped with it for the next 5 or 10 years. My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a somehow working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform anything much more than just read the screen to you, you will be offered to pay $19.95 a month; or, in case you want the Professional version with some basic scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great to see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. Hence, whatever good the screen reader might be on your cellphone or tablet, will you please consider comparing your activity on these units, as well as your productivity - and then come back telling me these screen readers are to be compared with WinEyes for one. But if now, G
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Does he still make his living at the studio? -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:43 PM To: Sky Mundell via Talk Cc: Tom Kingston Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Hmm. I thought I had a link to his site. But I haven't been there in ages and couldn't find it. We mainly talked on and off a mailing list. Sorry about that. But yes, he made his living at the studio. On 7/7/2019 10:14 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: > Nice! Is their a website where I can go and look up his studio? And does he > make a living as a recording engineer? > > -Original Message- > From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf > Of Tom Kingston via Talk > Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:12 PM > To: Sky Mundell via Talk > Cc: Tom Kingston > Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > Hey Sky, > > Slau is indeed the man at the B Flat recording studio. I met him > probably twenty-some years ago. > > Regards, > Tom > > > On 7/7/2019 9:38 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: >> Nice! I think I know your friend Tom. Isn't your friend Jerry Haliton, AKA >> Slau? >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On >> Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk >> Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 5:57 PM >> To: David via Talk >> Cc: Tom Kingston >> Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility >> >> No, Narrator does not yet compare to Window-Eyes, NVDA, or JAWS. But a >> lot of work has been done on it and it is a pretty capable screen reader >> for the average user today. And be it that both Doug Geoffray and Ron >> Parker (the two main developers from GW-Micro) are there, I assume >> they're looking to do a little more than give it a facelift. >> >> The real problem was Bill Gates. Our needs had no priority all the years >> he was at the helm. Most of what was done for accessibility was done >> under pressure from differing directions. However, since Satya Nadella >> took over the helm, accessibility became a real priority and there has >> been a sweeping change across the entire enterprise on awareness and >> incorporating accessibility into the development process. There has been >> an enormous amount of work done on accessibility in product lines such >> as Office and the Visual Studio programming environment. >> >> Whether one purchases or subscribes to Office is their choice. For some >> (blind or not) the small monthly or annual payments is the difference >> between getting it and not getting it. >> >> Microsoft will never sell Narrator. They would be publicly shamed. And >> the market is too small to make a difference to a company that large anyway. >> >> I'm not a fan of Apple's VoiceOver. But it is scriptable in some manner. >> I have a friend who owns a recording studio in New York city and is >> running purely on Macs. That is work that is far beyond that of the >> average user. >> >> So, from my perspective, the world isn't quite so bleak and out to get us. >> >> >> On 7/7/2019 10:07 AM, David via Talk wrote: >>> Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. >>> And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so >>> perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to >>> have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. >>> Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these >>> even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a >>> certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are >>> included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. >>> I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of >>> them. >>> >>> >>> Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, >>> without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we >>> judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much >>> welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you >>> don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but >>> rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single >>> month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have >>> bought the full-fledged version. And did yo
RE: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
To know that the folks at GW Micro are working on making accessibility in windows great, tells me that Narrator and Magnifier are in no way done yet. -Original Message- From: Talk On Behalf Of Loy Green via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 7:14 PM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Loy Green Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility The latest version of Narrator in Windows 1903 is very good. It has gotten me through some things that JAWS could not. - Original Message - From: "David via Talk" To: "Window-Eyes Discussion List" ; Cc: "David" Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. > And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so > perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to > have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. > Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of > these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to > a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are > included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. > I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either > of them. > > > Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, > without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we > judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much > welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, > you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but > rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single > month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could > have bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have > camped with it for the next 5 or 10 years. > > > My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a > somehow working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform > anything much more than just read the screen to you, you will be > offered to pay $19.95 a month; or, in case you want the Professional > version with some basic scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. > > > I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is great > to see the screen reader has improved over the last handful of years. > Still, a simple thing like browsing the net, TalkBack lacks a whole lot. > And, there are a few things that you might want to do on a computer, > which you do not necessarily see fit on your small mobil device. > Hence, whatever good the screen reader might be on your cellphone or > tablet, will you please consider comparing your activity on these > units, as well as your productivity - and then come back telling me > these screen readers are to be compared with WinEyes for one. But if > now, Google and Apple - both being really big industries, and even > somehow passed by Microsoft in market sharing - has never got anything > better than this, why would you expect Microsoft to be. As MS are > loosing market, they doubtfully will put too much into a screen > reader. After all, it is not the screen reader that will sell. On the > other hand, as Google and Apple has climbed the ladder of the market, > you would somehow have expected them to have invested more in their > screen readers. What is it you think MS will be doing different? > > > Sorry, I did not mean to be critical, or to put anyone down. I just > meant to point out the realities of today. Business is business; and > it is all about money. As the electronic devices have dropped in > price, noone wants to pay 5 times the electronic price, for their > software to be able to run the device. Meaning, the software industry > cannot charge you a shirt, a jacket and five pairs of shoes -just to > leave you the license for turning on your computer. Why we see more > and more subscription-based products. Even now aday, the pricing of > the Windows license soon will be higher than the price of buying just > a brand new computer, with a somehow restricted license on it. Use it > for two or three years, till the poor quality breaks, and then throw > it away and go get yourself a new one. Or, like Office, make people > pay you a fortune over the life-span of the product, by charging them > that little each month, that they do not know you are draining their bank > account. > > > As an interesting side-track here, might I take the opportunity to > tell you all something from locally? > > You know, some cellphone operators offer you
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
I assume so. but I haven't talked to him in quite a while. The last I knew he was traveling to his home country (which I forget at the moment) and recording the national orchestra. On 7/7/2019 10:44 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: Does he still make his living at the studio? -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:43 PM To: Sky Mundell via Talk Cc: Tom Kingston Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Hmm. I thought I had a link to his site. But I haven't been there in ages and couldn't find it. We mainly talked on and off a mailing list. Sorry about that. But yes, he made his living at the studio. On 7/7/2019 10:14 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: Nice! Is their a website where I can go and look up his studio? And does he make a living as a recording engineer? -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:12 PM To: Sky Mundell via Talk Cc: Tom Kingston Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Hey Sky, Slau is indeed the man at the B Flat recording studio. I met him probably twenty-some years ago. Regards, Tom On 7/7/2019 9:38 PM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote: Nice! I think I know your friend Tom. Isn't your friend Jerry Haliton, AKA Slau? -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Tom Kingston via Talk Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 5:57 PM To: David via Talk Cc: Tom Kingston Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility No, Narrator does not yet compare to Window-Eyes, NVDA, or JAWS. But a lot of work has been done on it and it is a pretty capable screen reader for the average user today. And be it that both Doug Geoffray and Ron Parker (the two main developers from GW-Micro) are there, I assume they're looking to do a little more than give it a facelift. The real problem was Bill Gates. Our needs had no priority all the years he was at the helm. Most of what was done for accessibility was done under pressure from differing directions. However, since Satya Nadella took over the helm, accessibility became a real priority and there has been a sweeping change across the entire enterprise on awareness and incorporating accessibility into the development process. There has been an enormous amount of work done on accessibility in product lines such as Office and the Visual Studio programming environment. Whether one purchases or subscribes to Office is their choice. For some (blind or not) the small monthly or annual payments is the difference between getting it and not getting it. Microsoft will never sell Narrator. They would be publicly shamed. And the market is too small to make a difference to a company that large anyway. I'm not a fan of Apple's VoiceOver. But it is scriptable in some manner. I have a friend who owns a recording studio in New York city and is running purely on Macs. That is work that is far beyond that of the average user. So, from my perspective, the world isn't quite so bleak and out to get us. On 7/7/2019 10:07 AM, David via Talk wrote: Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either of them. Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could have bought the full-fledged version. And did you buy, you could have camped with it for the next 5 or 10 years. My guess is, that you at the best will see MS coming out with a somehow working Narrator.And then, should you want it to perform anything much more than just read the screen to you, you will be offered to pay $19.95 a month; or, in case you want the Professional version with some basic scripting like Jaws - let's charge you $39.95 a month. I've been using Android for a little now, and have to say it is gr
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Think perhaps I did not come totally through there. Nice to hear that both Narrator and TalkOver has improved. The only point I wanted to make, was that even if they have improved, and even if they have certain features we might wish had been in some of the stand-alone screen readers; dreaming of a full-fledged screen reader being part of the OS itself, might be a bit out of realistic. I did not want to discourage any development, or to diminish any effort of the industry in being accessibility-minded. I just wanted to point out why we might not necessarily hope for such a thing as seeing WinEyes somehow resurrected inside Windows. Your point about the changes that takes place when one owner - or leader - goes, and another comes, is quite valid here. And was part of what I illustrated when I talked about the different merges. As a tiny follow-up on that - and please don't think I am arguing anything, just think it's worth to keep in mind - is this: The guys from GW, who now are with MS, are not exactly in their youngest years. I don't know their age,and it is of no importance either. Point here is, that one day they too will retire. Once they are out of the office, hopefully they will have made a screen reader footprint in the OS. Let's wait and see how deep that footprint will be. No, I don't think the industry, neither people in general are "out to get us". My point was that they might never have been trained to think that anyone would need their product or services been made accessible. Such training might best be done, from early age and up. When accessibility is not part of the training you get in school - or even pre-school - it is a new thing when you meet it in your workplace. And people are simply not aware of this. Without awareness of its impact on the life of the infirmed, how would we expect them to see the need for spending big resources in making their products ready for us. Sure, we all will agree that much has changed, comparing today's daily living with that of 40 or 50 years back. Many things have become a mere breeze to manage, even for the average blind person. May I just point out, that if anyone can make a living by usage of TalkOver, TalkBack or NVDA on the corresponding electronic device, I am all happy for them. Up through the years, I have heard about blind people being a chef, a butcher, a farmer, a car mechanics, a carpenter. Even I decided to get an education inside electronics and computing, in a time when such a learning was considered far out of reach for a person without full sight. That does tell little about the capabilities of a product in general though. I am well aware that there are people who will be champions on their cellphone, tablet or Mac. And for them, the screen reader seem to be complete, for the job they want done. Still, you would have a hard time, in doing some of the more heavy - multi-level - jobs with those screen readers. After all, would you be willing to tell that NVDA is *all* a person needs, so as to be in a productive state? For most users, yes, well enough. Are you only going to check emails, print a letter, read some scanned product, and doing your online banking - OK NVDA is a totally free alternative for you. For most users on this list though, I am ready to say it lacks too much, that we want WinEyes out our door all yet. One day maybe, NVDA will have grown enough, that WinEyes finally will be put in the museum. Or, would it be that Narrator became the big thing. Until then, I think I will stick with what we have. Interesting to hear about the development, and I am in the process of getting my next computer, which likely will have Win10. So then I might give Narrator a spin. But I am still going to rely on WinEyes as my main screen reader, till any of the built-ins have become well enough customizable that I can have them do a job of serving me through my activities of daily computing. Again, I do not want to point right or wrong, simply just trying to show different perspectives to the whole matter. David On 7/8/2019 2:57 AM, Tom Kingston via Talk wrote: > No, Narrator does not yet compare to Window-Eyes, NVDA, or JAWS. But a > lot of work has been done on it and it is a pretty capable screen > reader for the average user today. And be it that both Doug Geoffray > and Ron Parker (the two main developers from GW-Micro) are there, I > assume they're looking to do a little more than give it a facelift. > > The real problem was Bill Gates. Our needs had no priority all the > years he was at the helm. Most of what was done for accessibility was > done under pressure from differing directions. However, since Satya > Nadella took over the helm, accessibility became a real priority and > there has been a sweeping change across the entire enterprise on > awareness and incorporating accessibility into the development > process. There has been an enormous amount of work don
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
ean languages, that TH combination hardly ever occur, hence no need to spend one Braille character in shortening something that close to never would be used. That in turn means, that the character we in English so happily read as TH, might be used for the representation of another set of characters in any other language. Some language might define it to represent two or three characters, others will spend the Braille symbol on shortening a whole word, whereas still others will be using it to represent a National character outside the 26 standard ones aA through Z. One such example would be the symbol made up of dots 2, 4 and 6. In English you let that symbol represent the O-W combination; In Danish they use it to represent one of their three National characters. OK, so for a Braille user to read fast and effecient, he needs the Braille table swap whenever he wants to read a given text, in any of his languages. Just like you swap the synth. If he has to go through a couple of menus to swap Braille table, and another couple of menus to swap synth - how long will it take him to swap language? Or, how tidious will it be? Doing this five times an hour, how productive will such a screen reader prove to be? Until a screen reader can provide a means of quick and seamless swapping of synthesizer, I am ready to deem it "not good for high productivity". I did discuss this with Doug, back in the years of GW. GW never seemed to understand, hence never got multi-lingual. Jaws has been somehow better on this, though they are in lack of some standard means of quick-swap. Guess it could be scripted, and thereby be productive enough. NVDA, to all my knowledge has no quick fix on the matter. And Android is hopeless without some third-party applications installed. Never touched a Mac, so curious if someone would know what capabilities are on the TalkOver. Though rather lengthy an explanation, you will now appreciate at least one of the features that will need quite some attention in most of the built-in screen readers. Since Microsoft are pretty stiff on their licensing of the OS itself, not even letting you change the very license from one language to the other, let alone the capability of swapping the working environment - I am ready to doubt they are going to spend too much effort in making their screen reader all that multi-lingual. Prove me wrong, and I will be happy. Google lets you do some swapping, in that they tie the language synth up with what keyboard is active. Fine, long as you type - but it does have no effect when you just read an SMS or any other text on the screen. Again, would be interesting to know, how seamless this performs on Apple products. On 7/8/2019 4:56 AM, Darrell Bowles via Talk wrote: > To know that the folks at GW Micro are working on making accessibility in windows great, tells me that Narrator and Magnifier are in no way done yet. > > > -Original Message- > From: Talk On Behalf Of Loy Green via Talk > Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 7:14 PM > To: Window-Eyes Discussion List > Cc: Loy Green > Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > The latest version of Narrator in Windows 1903 is very good. It has gotten me through some things that JAWS could not. > - Original Message - > From: "David via Talk" > To: "Window-Eyes Discussion List" ; > Cc: "David" > Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 10:07 AM > Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > >> Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. >> And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so >> perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to >> have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. >> Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of >> these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to >> a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are >> included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. >> I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either >> of them. >> >> >> Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, >> without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we >> judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much >> welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, >> you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but >> rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single >> month. In about two years, you have subscribe enough that you could >> have bought the full-fledged version.
Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
ase. It is of high value to you, to shorten that down to one character. In several European languages, that TH combination hardly ever occur, hence no need to spend one Braille character in shortening something that close to never would be used. That in turn means, that the character we in English so happily read as TH, might be used for the representation of another set of characters in any other language. Some language might define it to represent two or three characters, others will spend the Braille symbol on shortening a whole word, whereas still others will be using it to represent a National character outside the 26 standard ones aA through Z. One such example would be the symbol made up of dots 2, 4 and 6. In English you let that symbol represent the O-W combination; In Danish they use it to represent one of their three National characters. OK, so for a Braille user to read fast and effecient, he needs the Braille table swap whenever he wants to read a given text, in any of his languages. Just like you swap the synth. If he has to go through a couple of menus to swap Braille table, and another couple of menus to swap synth - how long will it take him to swap language? Or, how tidious will it be? Doing this five times an hour, how productive will such a screen reader prove to be? Until a screen reader can provide a means of quick and seamless swapping of synthesizer, I am ready to deem it "not good for high productivity". I did discuss this with Doug, back in the years of GW. GW never seemed to understand, hence never got multi-lingual. Jaws has been somehow better on this, though they are in lack of some standard means of quick-swap. Guess it could be scripted, and thereby be productive enough. NVDA, to all my knowledge has no quick fix on the matter. And Android is hopeless without some third-party applications installed. Never touched a Mac, so curious if someone would know what capabilities are on the TalkOver. Though rather lengthy an explanation, you will now appreciate at least one of the features that will need quite some attention in most of the built-in screen readers. Since Microsoft are pretty stiff on their licensing of the OS itself, not even letting you change the very license from one language to the other, let alone the capability of swapping the working environment - I am ready to doubt they are going to spend too much effort in making their screen reader all that multi-lingual. Prove me wrong, and I will be happy. Google lets you do some swapping, in that they tie the language synth up with what keyboard is active. Fine, long as you type - but it does have no effect when you just read an SMS or any other text on the screen. Again, would be interesting to know, how seamless this performs on Apple products. On 7/8/2019 4:56 AM, Darrell Bowles via Talk wrote: > To know that the folks at GW Micro are working on making accessibility in windows great, tells me that Narrator and Magnifier are in no way done yet. > > > -Original Message- > From: Talk On Behalf Of Loy Green via Talk > Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 7:14 PM > To: Window-Eyes Discussion List > Cc: Loy Green > Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > The latest version of Narrator in Windows 1903 is very good. It has gotten me through some things that JAWS could not. > - Original Message - > From: "David via Talk" > To: "Window-Eyes Discussion List" ; > Cc: "David" > Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 10:07 AM > Subject: Re: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility > > >> Well, let it be Narrator might eventually turn into something useful. >> And forebare with me, I have not tested anything later than Win8.1, so >> perhaps it is already getting into something basic. Google managed to >> have a somehow working screen reader, and what I hear, so did Apple. >> Still, I think very few people will agree, should we claim any of >> these even close to the standard of things like Jaws, Win-Eyes, and to >> a certain degree NVDA. For one thing, those screen readers that are >> included with the OS, lack a good deal of personalization capabilities. >> I am not aware you can built any kind of Scripts or add-ons to either >> of them. >> >> >> Besides, dreaming that Microsoft would let all be part of the OS, >> without charging their users; seem not too much to rely on, should we >> judge from history. OK, they could change their schemes, and very much >> welcome to do that. But look what they have done with Office. Sure, >> you don't have to pay them a check of a couple of hundred dollars, but >> rather they are going to feed at your credit card table every single >> month. In about two years, you have sub
Fw: New: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility
Passing this along for all of us who are fans of Jeremy Curry. Martha R. IL Forwarded by Martha --- Original Message --- From:Ricky Enger To: Date:Fri, 5 Jul 2019 16:20:56 + Subject: New: Microsoft Talks Raising the Bar on Accessibility Hadley Presents Hadley Presents and a microphone with the braille ‘h’ appear in white on a black background, framed by red curtains ** A Conversation with Microsoft (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=dabef71dfc&e=62aae9bab1) Listen in as Ricky Enger chats with Microsoft’s Jeremy Curry, a Senior Program Manager with the Windows Accessibility team. New vision accessibility features are now available in Windows 10 for low vision and screen reader users. “...everybody is different, nobody is the same. And so having the ability to customize the color, and the size, and magnification...really help to make it a good experience for anybody on the low vision spectrum." Listen Now (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=4f04c828a1&e=62aae9bab1) Have a suggestion for a future episode? Email us at podc...@hadley.edu (mailto:podc...@hadley.edu) or call the Hadley Presents podcast line at (847) 784-2870 (tel:847-784-2870) ** Facebook (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=885a4ef869&e=62aae9bab1) ** Twitter (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=f248437e94&e=62aae9bab1) ** YouTube (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=6b1a877672&e=62aae9bab1) ** LinkedIn (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=64d0ae9d94&e=62aae9bab1) ** Hadley Logo - Braille "H" in teal square (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=c0133b70c6&e=62aae9bab1) 700 Elm Street Winnetka, Illinois 60093 800.323.4238 | ** hadley.edu (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=9bf9105e13&e=62aae9bab1) You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website. ** Unsubscribe from this list (https://hadley.us20.list-manage.com/unsubscribe?u=872829398302c647169f3fad3&id=01363d0cec&e=62aae9bab1&c=a27bdccbda) - Original Message Ends -- Martha ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
