Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - lake

[Robin Paulson]

On 11/01/2008, Michael Collinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Lake
> >
> >it seems a logical one to me, we need to differentiate between lakes
> >and rivers, canals, etc.
>
> Yes, probably logical if we started from scratch but today it exactly

totally, i realise the tagging system has evolved very quickly form
nothing, it's bound to change over time as we learn new things. my
tone was probably wrong, that is itself a good reason why the tag was
chosen

> duplicates natural=water which is very, very widely used - 9421 times

no problem, they can all be changed very simply i should think.

> according to the Statistics link
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:natural, though I suspect
> that is out of date.  There is also natural=coastline, so there is
> another logic too.

that is actually pretty logical (for practical reasons) - the
alternative would be one area comprising 99% of the world's oceans.
using a boundary instead, greatly simplifies things, plus the creation
of new oceans/seas is highly unlikely, so once it's done, it's done.
on the other hand, new lakes/reservoirs/etc. are a lot more likely, so
we need a consistent scheme for adding them. i'm sure there are other
good reasons, too

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Re: [OSM-talk] proposal templates

[Bruce Cowan]

On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 11:16 +0100, Lars Aronsson wrote:
> Robin Paulson wrote:
> 
> > as you can see, i'm not a mediawiki gurui probably got the
> > terminology wrong, yes i was using templates in it's more generic
> > meaning.
> 
> I think you can achieve this by "subst:ing" a Mediawiki template.

I was bold and made a template [0]. Edits welcome (it's a wiki, hardly
suprising). It will get the proposal date and user automatically, and
set the status to "proposal".

{{subst:proposal|key|value}} is the usage.

[0] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Template:Proposal
-- 
Bruce Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: [OSM-talk] Osmosis UTF-8 problem (again)

[Brett Henderson]

Tom Hughes wrote:
> The name doesn't make any more sense in a mysql command line, so I
> don't think it's an osmosis problem.
>   
I've been suffering from brain fade.  I keep thinking that this is a 
problem with edited data, but it's only the user table ...

Perhaps this user name has become corrupted or the user editing page 
allows incorrect data to be stored in the db.  Can we fix this user 
entry or at least contact the user to see what it should be?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Osmosis UTF-8 problem (again)

[Brett Henderson]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
>   
>> Any idea what the user name should be? I find it hard to believe that 
>> user="jos??¯®" (from the API) is correct.
>> 
>
> Well on 05 December I did have a problem with the planet diff, quoting
> from old E-Mail:
>
>   
>
>latest daily planet diff has an UTF-8 problem on line 58267:
>  Seems like the user names don't get encoded properly.
>
> <<
>
> Username looks conspicuously similar ;)
>   
I remember that email, I was hoping the problem would magically 
disappear ;-)

Checking the history of that node from the API again gives user="jos逴巊 
»H´" (hopefully this is coming through okay, it includes a bunch of 
Chinese-like characters).

I'll check it out in more detail soon. It does look like it should be 
user="josé" but given that the API is also returning "interesting" data 
it sounds like there's a deeper problem somewhere. Either way, osmosis 
shouldn't be emitting invalid UTF-8, but fixing it may not be easy. It 
might have something to do with characters that can't be represented 
with 16-bit characters. If it does turn out to be a problem elsewhere I 
can try to put a hack in place to at least emit valid UTF-8, but it will 
require me doing some more reading of unicode standards which I'm not 
excited about :-)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Osmosis UTF-8 problem (again)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> Any idea what the user name should be? I find it hard to believe that 
> user="jos??¯®" (from the API) is correct.

Well on 05 December I did have a problem with the planet diff, quoting
from old E-Mail:

>>

   latest daily planet diff has an UTF-8 problem on line 58267:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Osmosis UTF-8 problem (again)

[Tom Hughes]

On 11/01/2008, Brett Henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> > Looks like there's an issue with  UTF-8 characters in the username.
> >
> > Line 42117 of daily-20080109-20080110.osc is an example (node 32268361).
> >
> > Have a nice day,
>
> Any idea what the user name should be? I find it hard to believe that
> user="jos逴巜¯(R)󙀀" (from the API) is correct.

The name doesn't make any more sense in a mysql command line, so I
don't think it's an osmosis problem.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.compton.nu/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Osmosis UTF-8 problem (again)

[Brett Henderson]

Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> Looks like there's an issue with  UTF-8 characters in the username.
>
> Line 42117 of daily-20080109-20080110.osc is an example (node 32268361).
>
> Have a nice day,
>   
Any idea what the user name should be? I find it hard to believe that 
user="jos逴巜¯®󙀀" (from the API) is correct.


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Re: [OSM-talk] POIs from OSM data

[Christoph Eckert]

Hi,

update:
http://christeck.de/POIs/

Cheers,

ce

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Summer of Code

[Nick Black]

On Jan 11, 2008 4:38 PM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > A starting point is to establish which projects are proposed and who
> > will volunteer to mentor them.  It would be great now to get some of
> > the routing guys, some of the server guys, some of the JOSM guys, some
> > of the Potlatch guys etc etc, to take a look through the wiki page and
> > to put themselves forward as mentors for the projects.
>
> Are mentors supposed to volunteer for a specific project or just
> generally?

I'd say generally at first, but its good to have an idea of what kind
of projects different people will mentor.  I guess a C++ guy isnt
going to want to mentor a Ruby project etc

>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00.09' E008°23.33'
>
>
>



-- 
Nick Black

http://www.blacksworld.net

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[OSM-talk] Call for papers

[Steve Chilton]

The Society of Cartographers has issued a call for papers for it's 2008 
conference, which is to be held in Aberdeen 1-4 Sept 2008.
See: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/cartographers08/ 
 

"We would also like to hear of developments in important on-going subjects such 
as:
o  OpenStreetMap, FreeMap, etc.
o  programs such as Google Earth
o  data issues"

It would be good to get OpenStreetMap in the programme again, and keep the 
dialogue up between OSMers and "traditional" cartographers, who both have a lot 
to teach each other.

If you are interested or would like more info, don't hesitate to contact the 
organisers, or myself even.

Cheers
STEVE


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[OSM-talk] OSM mailinglist for Belgium

[Johan Huysmans]

Hi All,

Since this afternoon there is a new mailinglist voor all mappers in 
Belgium. The necessary information can be found on the Belgium wiki page 
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Belgium)

The mailinglist will discuss topics specific for Belgium, like mapping 
parties, who is mapping where, ...
Before the mailinglist all this discussion happened on the wiki talk 
pages, which is not very handy.

Of course it is always allowed to subscribe to the mailinglist if you 
don't live in Belgium ;)
As Belgium is a country with 3 official languages it is allowed to use 
all of them (Dutch, French and German) and English.


See you on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailinglist !!!


Greetings
Johan Huysmans

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Andy Robinson (blackadder)]

Martin Trautmann wrote:
>Sent: 11 January 2008 1:23 PM
>To: talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence
>talk
>
>In-Reply-To:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>On 2008-01-11 12:49, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
>> I've been surprised just how much extra data can be added
>> just by taking a little time over each street and I've found a few
>features
>> that really should have been on the map already, despite being less than
>> half a mile from my home.
>>
>> I'm not suggesting for one minute that the verification task is easy or
>> quick, but it is necessary.
>
>Is OSM that far that we need verification and quality ensurance?
>
>We are still far from completeness, which might be a primary goal.
>
>I checked two of the major federal states in Germany by now, comparing the
>data with other street lists (maps, addresses etc.)
>
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/North_Rhine-Westphalia
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg
>
>As long as we got less than 50 % of the most important street names (and
>Germany is about 10 %) I do not mind yet that much about verification.

Ah, but some areas are more than 90% "complete" or in some cases 110%
depending upon the amount of the map you look at and do a like for like
comparison. My local area is probably at the 95+% stage (when compared with
typical street level maps) so verification is a logical next step. At other
times of course I'm mapping locations which have much less than 50% coverage
at this time.

OSM will never have a unified level of coverage but then most of the
competition doesn't either, just look at the Caribbean islands in the
different map engines and you will see that coverage is totally hit and miss
there too. Many other bigger examples if you look around the world.

>
>Don't get me wrong: verification is important. But I feel that precision,
>vandalism (version management) or licensing are equal and secondary goals.
>OSM may have a major strength just as a good wiki when it offers a
>reasonable base, while it may be much more up to date than man other
>sources.
>

Agreed these are important areas too. Each to his own and his own
capabilities. All of it needs doing at some time or other.

>Is there any comparison about the amount of data within current commercial
>systems, compared to OSM?
>

Making comparisons is a rather fruitless exercise because it's extremely
difficult to know how good the data is between providers. It might look like
a good map but is it really? The comments made recently regarding China and
the AND data there are an eye-opener.

>- Martin
>
>--
>Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört?
>Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10
>


Cheers

Andy


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[OSM-talk] Osmosis UTF-8 problem (again)

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

Looks like there's an issue with  UTF-8 characters in the username.

Line 42117 of daily-20080109-20080110.osc is an example (node 32268361).

Have a nice day,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Stephen Coast]

oh and while we're pointing out mistakes, roads around the US embassy  
have been closed for going on 10 years (slide 19).

On 11 Jan 2008, at 16:51, Stephen Coast wrote:

>
> On 11 Jan 2008, at 04:39, J.D. Schmidt wrote:
>
>> Jon Burgess skrev:
>>> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 00:09 +, martin dodge wrote:
 Hi,

 Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa
 Lawrence, OS
 http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/VL_why_place_matters.pdf
 with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46

>>>
>>> The map in his screenshot must be from quite some time ago. The same
>>> area of central London now has considerably more data
>>>
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.5183&lon=-0.1387&zoom=14&layers=0BFT
>>>
>>> Jon
>>
>> Hey, what do you expect from someone who is used to a 6 month
>> timeframe
>> before new features in the landscape has been mapped, processed and
>> included in the mastermap ? Of course she included an old rendering,
>> most probably from the London Map Party.
>
> Interestingly no - it's missing large sections that were done that
> weekend. Specifically 80n's bit between Edgware Road and Baker
> Streetish as I remember.
>
> have fun,
>
> SteveC | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.asklater.com/steve/
>
>
>
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have fun,

SteveC | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.asklater.com/steve/



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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Stephen Coast]

On 11 Jan 2008, at 04:39, J.D. Schmidt wrote:

> Jon Burgess skrev:
>> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 00:09 +, martin dodge wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa  
>>> Lawrence, OS
>>> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/VL_why_place_matters.pdf
>>> with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
>>>
>>
>> The map in his screenshot must be from quite some time ago. The same
>> area of central London now has considerably more data
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.5183&lon=-0.1387&zoom=14&layers=0BFT
>>
>>  Jon
>
> Hey, what do you expect from someone who is used to a 6 month  
> timeframe
> before new features in the landscape has been mapped, processed and
> included in the mastermap ? Of course she included an old rendering,
> most probably from the London Map Party.

Interestingly no - it's missing large sections that were done that  
weekend. Specifically 80n's bit between Edgware Road and Baker  
Streetish as I remember.

have fun,

SteveC | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.asklater.com/steve/



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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Summer of Code

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> A starting point is to establish which projects are proposed and who
> will volunteer to mentor them.  It would be great now to get some of
> the routing guys, some of the server guys, some of the JOSM guys, some
> of the Potlatch guys etc etc, to take a look through the wiki page and
> to put themselves forward as mentors for the projects.

Are mentors supposed to volunteer for a specific project or just  
generally?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00.09' E008°23.33'



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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

On Jan 11, 2008 2:12 PM, David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11/01/2008 12:49, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
> > (incidentally the name finder came in for some flak due to its data not
> > matching the map content - we need to be careful there too).
>
> Indeed, it is embarrassingly out of date now, but I just don't have the
> necessary hardware to process the size of the file regularly any more.
> This will work on diffs in due course, but it is going to need a few
> days more hacking to get this working.

The NL tileserver has mapnik output no older than two days. Hypercube
was (is?) running a global mapnik renderer updated daily. However, I'm
not sure how either of these servers would handle the kind of load we
would get if we redirected the main site to them...

Have a nice day,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 11 Jan 2008, at 13:28, Christopher Schmidt wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 01:19:32PM +, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
>> Marking 'dirty' areas by processing planet diff sounds reasonable but
>> we only generate diffs weekly, afaik.
>> My understanding is that generating planet and planet diffs takes
>> very long time at the moment which brings us back to the eternal
>> quest of improving main DB. I'm not even suggesting to use  
>> postgresql :D
>
> Er, we do hourly diffs now, using osmosis.

Great, cheers.
>
> Regards,
> -- 
> Christopher Schmidt
> MetaCarta
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 11 Jan 2008, at 13:35, Lambertus wrote:

> Artem Pavlenko wrote:
>> Marking 'dirty' areas by processing planet diff sounds reasonable  
>> but  we only generate diffs weekly, afaik.
>> My understanding is that generating planet and planet diffs takes   
>> very long time at the moment which brings us back to the eternal
>> quest of improving main DB. I'm not even suggesting to use  
>> postgresql :D
> There are hourly diffs available in: http:// 
> planet.openstreetmap.org/hourly/

thanks,
A


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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Nick Black]

On Jan 11, 2008 11:58 AM, Chris Hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The presentation by the CEO of the OS shows that she takes OSM *very* 
> seriously, perhaps even seriously enough to show our work in a bad light.

If I was the CEO of a large mapping company and I took OSM seriously I
would either by trying to implement OSM myself (GetMapping), trying to
integrate the concepts of OSM into my own db (AND), supporting OSM
(Multimap, AND).  If I took it *very* seriously, I would be saying
nothing at all (Google, Navteq, Teleatlast) whilst deploying my
engineers to study the source code.

The whole presentation is a "look - I get web 2.0 too".  When I saw VL
present the same "we are the OS" presentation in 2006, it was all
ambulance routing and ESRI Arc GIS.  The inclusion a few OSM slides
along with Google Earth and Facebook screenshots, is VL tyring to show
that she's ontop of things and ready for the next knighthood/civil
service promotion.

Its the same as the Queen releasing her Christmas speech on YouTube.
I don't think HRH lies awake at night worrying about the effect
YouTube is having on the BBC.


>
> cheers,
> Chris
>
> - Original Message 
> > From: martin dodge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> > Sent: Friday, 11 January, 2008 12:09:59 AM
> > Subject: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa
> > Lawrence,
> >
>  OS
> > http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/VL_why_place_matters.pdf
> > with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
> >
> > cheers
> > martin
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
>
>
>   __
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>
>
>
>
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>



-- 
Nick Black

http://www.blacksworld.net

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Lambertus]

Artem Pavlenko wrote:
> Marking 'dirty' areas by processing planet diff sounds reasonable but  
> we only generate diffs weekly, afaik.
> My understanding is that generating planet and planet diffs takes  
> very long time at the moment which brings us back to the eternal
> quest of improving main DB. I'm not even suggesting to use postgresql :D
> 
There are hourly diffs available in: http://planet.openstreetmap.org/hourly/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 11 Jan 2008, at 13:09, David Earl wrote:

> On 11/01/2008 13:00, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
>
>>> (a) Mapnik works on planet, yes?
>> No, it works on postgis db which is populated with osm2pgsql from  
>> planet.
>
> Yes, I know that. I meant that it is coming from planet, not  
> directly derived from the main database like osmarender.
>
>>> So perhaps use the planet diffs to determine areas which have  
>>> changed and proactively mark all such areas dirty.
>> The problem is how to merge planet diff into postgis , I think  
>> Jonb has done some work/research in this area.
>> Are there existing tools (osmosis?) that given a planet diff would  
>> return 'dirty' areas?
>
> Everything listed in a planet diff is by definition dirty, yes. I  
> don't think you;d need to change the rendering process at all -  
> keep on converting the full planet to database; just have a new  
> means for marking dirty areas - derived from the lat/lons of all  
> nodes in the planet diff corresponding to the current planet, plus  
> the lat/lons of all nodes of all ways listed in the diff.

Marking 'dirty' areas by processing planet diff sounds reasonable but  
we only generate diffs weekly, afaik.
My understanding is that generating planet and planet diffs takes  
very long time at the moment which brings us back to the eternal
quest of improving main DB. I'm not even suggesting to use postgresql :D

> David


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[OSM-talk] osm2pgsql.exe

[Artem Pavlenko]

Hello windows users,

osm2pgsql.exe has arrived : http://artem.dev.openstreetmap.org/files/ 
osm2pgsql_latest.exe.zip

Enjoy!
Artem

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Christopher Schmidt]

On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 01:19:32PM +, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
> Marking 'dirty' areas by processing planet diff sounds reasonable but  
> we only generate diffs weekly, afaik.
> My understanding is that generating planet and planet diffs takes  
> very long time at the moment which brings us back to the eternal
> quest of improving main DB. I'm not even suggesting to use postgresql :D

Er, we do hourly diffs now, using osmosis. 

Regards,
-- 
Christopher Schmidt
MetaCarta

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Re: [OSM-talk] srtm2shp - Shapefiles from SRTM contours - new version

[Artem Pavlenko]

Hi Nick,

I'm trying to generate some contours with srtm2shp but having  
problems feeding right args , any examples?

Also, would you like to combine efforts to fix voids ?
cheers
Artem
On 28 Dec 2007, at 15:18, Nick Whitelegg wrote:


Hello everyone,

There is now a new version of the srtm2shp utility which generates  
shapefiles of SRTM contours in the OSM SVN repository (under utils/ 
srtm2shp). It only has one dependency - shapelib.


This version should work anywhere across the world, in contrast to  
earlier versions which were a bit of a mess and only worked in the  
UK. So if you're interested in creating a Freemap-like site for  
your own country, this is a good place to start.


Main todo is dealing with SRTM voids in mountainous areas.

Nick

Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo!  
for Good

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Martin Trautmann]

In-Reply-To: 

On 2008-01-11 12:49, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
> I've been surprised just how much extra data can be added
> just by taking a little time over each street and I've found a few features
> that really should have been on the map already, despite being less than
> half a mile from my home.
>
> I'm not suggesting for one minute that the verification task is easy or
> quick, but it is necessary.

Is OSM that far that we need verification and quality ensurance?

We are still far from completeness, which might be a primary goal.

I checked two of the major federal states in Germany by now, comparing the
data with other street lists (maps, addresses etc.)

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/North_Rhine-Westphalia
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg

As long as we got less than 50 % of the most important street names (and
Germany is about 10 %) I do not mind yet that much about verification.

Don't get me wrong: verification is important. But I feel that precision, 
vandalism (version management) or licensing are equal and secondary goals. OSM 
may have a major strength just as a good wiki when it offers a reasonable base, 
while it may be much more up to date than man other sources. 

Is there any comparison about the amount of data within current commercial
systems, compared to OSM?

- Martin

-- 
Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört?
Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger?did=10

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[David Earl]

On 11/01/2008 12:49, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
> (incidentally the name finder came in for some flak due to its data not
> matching the map content - we need to be careful there too). 

Indeed, it is embarrassingly out of date now, but I just don't have the 
necessary hardware to process the size of the file regularly any more. 
This will work on diffs in due course, but it is going to need a few 
days more hacking to get this working.

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[David Earl]

On 11/01/2008 13:00, Artem Pavlenko wrote:

>> (a) Mapnik works on planet, yes?
> 
> No, it works on postgis db which is populated with osm2pgsql from planet.

Yes, I know that. I meant that it is coming from planet, not directly 
derived from the main database like osmarender.

>> So perhaps use the planet diffs to determine areas which have changed 
>> and proactively mark all such areas dirty.
> 
> The problem is how to merge planet diff into postgis , I think Jonb has 
> done some work/research in this area.
> Are there existing tools (osmosis?) that given a planet diff would 
> return 'dirty' areas?

Everything listed in a planet diff is by definition dirty, yes. I don't 
think you;d need to change the rendering process at all - keep on 
converting the full planet to database; just have a new means for 
marking dirty areas - derived from the lat/lons of all nodes in the 
planet diff corresponding to the current planet, plus the lat/lons of 
all nodes of all ways listed in the diff.

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 11 Jan 2008, at 12:23, David Earl wrote:

> On 11/01/2008 11:48, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
>>> Incidentally, this is exacerbated by the lazy rendering rule for  
>>> Mapnik
>> What do you mean by 'lazy' rule?  AFAIK, all available hardware is  
>> working hard day an night :)
>
> I mean the way in which a tile isn't rendered until (after) it is  
> looked at rather than proactively when an area changes.
OK, I think this is right. (better check with Jon)
>
>>> - I was puzzled when someone said to me the other day "why is this
>>> housing estate not connected to the rest of the road network?".  
>>> It was;
>>> but adjacent Mapnik tiles were inconsistent (both laterally and  
>>> by zoom
>>> level - and this wasn't a recently mapped area). You may not  
>>> think this
>>> matters, but I think this is a public face and it causes further
>>> confusion and mistrust.
>> We can certainly improve here. Suggestions ?
>
> I would try three things:
>
> (a) Mapnik works on planet, yes?

No, it works on postgis db which is populated with osm2pgsql from  
planet.
I'm sure you'd agree that using planet directly is not a viable  
solution. I know [EMAIL PROTECTED] clients are using APIs but this is hardly a  
solution either. I would go further to suggest that current [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
setup  
uses more bandwidth and cpu (through API usage) then actual uploading  
new data, making API slow and not-user friendly. Have we got some  
stats ?


I also worry that amount of heat generated by [EMAIL PROTECTED] clients is  
contributing to the global warming


> So perhaps use the planet diffs to determine areas which have  
> changed and proactively mark all such areas dirty.

The problem is how to merge planet diff into postgis , I think Jonb  
has done some work/research in this area.
Are there existing tools (osmosis?) that given a planet diff would  
return 'dirty' areas?

>
> (b) for all dirty areas, render at all zoom levels (perhaps down to  
> zoom 12, like osmarender) and do the 8 immediately neighbouring  
> tiles of dirty tiles as well for say zoom 13 or 14 and higher.  
> (Many tiles, neighbouring tiles will be dirty anyway, so this  
> amounts to adding one tile around each group of two-dimensionally  
> contiguous dirty tiles.

Sure, this is certainly possible.
>
> (c) install updated tiles at one go so far as possible.
>

This is how it works already. There is no hidden tiles .
> David

Artem

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Lauri Hahne]

On 11/01/2008, tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Trust the identical free map made by a bunch of geeks with cheap GPS
> and where the reliability, data quality isn't clear, or by us, where
> we document and guarantee the quality. Who would you go for if you had
> a business?
>

Openstreetmap brings new kind of problems. What if you put a slippy
map on your page and take the tiles from OSM's servers. Then you risk
the possibility that someone edits that part of the map to add some
unwanted content to your page.


-- 
Lauri Hahne

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Andy Robinson (blackadder)]

David Earl wrote:
>Sent: 11 January 2008 11:22 AM
>To: Jon Burgess
>Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence
>talk
>
>On 11/01/2008 00:55, Jon Burgess wrote:
>> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 00:09 +, martin dodge wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa Lawrence,
>OS
>>> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/VL_why_place_matters.pdf
>>> with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
>>>
>>
>> The map in his screenshot must be from quite some time ago. The same
>> area of central London now has considerably more data
>
>I think that misses the point. There are still many, many other areas
>where there is still just as little data, but that's not the point either.
>
>The key thing is 'how do you know?'. If you look at the current coverage
>of that London area, it probably looks quite convincing now, whereas in
>her slide it was obviously incomplete, yet I bet it isn't (in fact, I
>know it isn't - there are numerous missing streets in the densely mapped
>central London). How would I know this? How do I know whether I can
>trust this map or not? (*)
>
>This was and remains one of my key concerns about OSM as a project. I've
>said before and I'll say again: we need a way of asserting "this area is
>complete" (for one or more definitions of completeness).
>

I totally agree with your points David and I've had them voiced directly to
me by people who have tried the default map render for the first time
(incidentally the name finder came in for some flak due to its data not
matching the map content - we need to be careful there too). However I'm
less concerned about validity provided that we don't try to oversell our
mapping as "complete" before its been validated. The only way that we are
going to individually or collectively state the completeness of a specific
area is to carry out a verification process. It doesn't have to be done by
third parties or even different contributors but it does need to be done by
someone. I have started to do it for Sutton Coldfield and it can only be
achieved on foot. I've been surprised just how much extra data can be added
just by taking a little time over each street and I've found a few features
that really should have been on the map already, despite being less than
half a mile from my home.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that the verification task is easy or
quick, but it is necessary.

We need a simple tag to display verification, perhaps the username and a
date, say verification=blackadder_20080111 or similar. That doesn't stop
someone falsifying validation but then I don't really think falsification is
in the OSM mindset to begin with and so probably not something to be really
concerned about for the majority of the data. User feedback would in my
expectation continue to spot problem areas if they crop up.

>Incidentally, this is exacerbated by the lazy rendering rule for Mapnik
>- I was puzzled when someone said to me the other day "why is this
>housing estate not connected to the rest of the road network?". It was;
>but adjacent Mapnik tiles were inconsistent (both laterally and by zoom
>level - and this wasn't a recently mapped area). You may not think this
>matters, but I think this is a public face and it causes further
>confusion and mistrust.
>
>David
>
>
>(* And how would I know how to fill in the gaps if I was there without
>revisiting every already mapped street?).
>


Cheers

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[tim]

On Jan 11, 2008 7:48 AM, Jo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What slide 46 is trying to convey is: we know about these amateurs over
> there, but our stuff is better.

I think the main point of that slide is:

 "these amateurs *will* are as good as us, but you can trust us more!"

Trust the identical free map made by a bunch of geeks with cheap GPS
and where the reliability, data quality isn't clear, or by us, where
we document and guarantee the quality. Who would you go for if you had
a business?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Summer of Code

[Nick Black]

I've edited the SOC page a bit:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Google_Summer_of_Code

A starting point is to establish which projects are proposed and who
will volunteer to mentor them.  It would be great now to get some of
the routing guys, some of the server guys, some of the JOSM guys, some
of the Potlatch guys etc etc, to take a look through the wiki page and
to put themselves forward as mentors for the projects.

Cheers,



On Jan 11, 2008 10:35 AM, Nick Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yeah, we really need to get our acts together this year.  I'm happy to
> co-ordinate things and chase application etc.
>
> We need mentors on-board though.
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2008 10:21 AM, Tom Chance <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I see on this page that the OSM community needs to get together the
> > Summer of Code ideas pretty quick:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Google_Summer_of_Code
> >
> > Is anyone working on this? I have an idea that I've added (accessibility
> > analysis tools) but don't want to put too much more effort in unless it
> > looks like OSM will meet the deadline.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Nick Black
> 
> http://www.blacksworld.net
>



-- 
Nick Black

http://www.blacksworld.net

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[David Earl]

On 11/01/2008 11:48, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
>> Incidentally, this is exacerbated by the lazy rendering rule for Mapnik
> 
> What do you mean by 'lazy' rule?  AFAIK, all available hardware is 
> working hard day an night :)

I mean the way in which a tile isn't rendered until (after) it is looked 
at rather than proactively when an area changes.

>> - I was puzzled when someone said to me the other day "why is this
>> housing estate not connected to the rest of the road network?". It was;
>> but adjacent Mapnik tiles were inconsistent (both laterally and by zoom
>> level - and this wasn't a recently mapped area). You may not think this
>> matters, but I think this is a public face and it causes further
>> confusion and mistrust.
> 
> We can certainly improve here. Suggestions ?

I would try three things:

(a) Mapnik works on planet, yes? So perhaps use the planet diffs to 
determine areas which have changed and proactively mark all such areas 
dirty.

(b) for all dirty areas, render at all zoom levels (perhaps down to zoom 
12, like osmarender) and do the 8 immediately neighbouring tiles of 
dirty tiles as well for say zoom 13 or 14 and higher. (Many tiles, 
neighbouring tiles will be dirty anyway, so this amounts to adding one 
tile around each group of two-dimensionally contiguous dirty tiles.

(c) install updated tiles at one go so far as possible.

David

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] where we are, where we're going

[Andy Robinson (blackadder)]

Peter Miller wrote:
>Sent: 11 January 2008 10:05 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] where we are, where we're going
>
>> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:00:27 +
>> From: Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] The OSM licence: where we are, where
>>  we're   and are, where we're going
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
>>  format="flowed"
>>
>> (follow-ups to legal-talk, please)
>>
>> Peter Miller wrote:
>>
>> > There are clearly uncertainties and complications with the current
>> licence,
>> > however it does allow for the license to be upgraded without going back
>> to
>> > original contributors for permission.
>>
>> In OSM's case that's unlikely to be true.
>>
>> Copyright in OSM contributions is owned by the original contributors,
>> not by OSMF. As the CC-BY-SA 2.0 summary says, "A new version of this
>> license is available. You should use it for new works, and you may
>> want to relicense existing works under it. No works are automatically
>> put under the new license, however."
>>
>> Since no works are automatically put under the new licence, every
>> contributor would have to choose to move to (say) CC-Data-BY-SA just
>> as they would any other licence.
>>
>>
>
>Not true. The licence upgrade clause in CC-BY-SA 2.0 states in clause b:
>"You may distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or publicly
>digitally perform a Derivative Work only under the terms of this License,
>*a
>later version of this License* with the same License Elements as this
>License"(my emphasis). This allows the OSMF (on anyone else) to distribute
>OSM data using CC-BY-SA 3.0, 4.0 or whatever  I am really concerned that
>this whole drama is being built on false foundations.
>
>
>> > As such I feel confident that CC could
>> > come up with a derivative of CC-BY-SA 3.0 that covers our needs and
>plug
>> the
>> > gaps (and those of other gedata/DB type datasets generally); after all,
>> if
>> > the ODL can do it then why can't CC do it
>>
>> The following background is absolutely crucial. It's in the
>> OpenGeoData post but I'll take the chance to restate it. I'd encourage
>> you, Longbow4u and others to reflect on it.
>>
>> * The Open Data Commons Database Licence is a share-alike licence with
>> attribution elements. It is, as you say, "in the spirit of CC-BY-SA".
>>
>> * Its authors are working with Creative Commons.
>>
>> * Creative Commons has a strong policy that "facts are free"[1]. They
>> have therefore now introduced a "licence" for factual information, but
>> this is essentially public domain (CC0/PDDL) with a voluntary request
>> to share info. We are _not_ recommending that OSM adopts that licence.
>> The ODC Database Licence is entirely separate.
>>
>>
>> So to specifically answer your point about "if the ODL can do it then
>> why can't CC do it":
>>
>> * CC doesn't believe factual information should be subject to
>> restrictions, so _won't_ do it.
>>
>> * But if CC were to do it (if, for example, they were lobbied to do
>> so), their existing collaboration with ODC makes it very likely that
>> they would actually adopt the Open Data Commons Database Licence.
>>
>> In other words, this option is significantly _more_ copyleft than CC
>> themselves propose.
>>
>
>I am not really convinced by your argument on copyright/DB rights. A map is
>not a factual in the same way that a gazetteer would be or a telephone
>directory. 

Agreed, but surely we need to be careful not to think OSM is one or the
other when in fact it's both. OSM is a database of both factual and
non-factual data (by virtue of some data being artistically represented by
the contributor). That's really what the OSM licence covers since that's
what SteveC started. The maps (renderings) came later and arguably a
different set of copyright and licence rules apply because the "map" and the
database are different.


>Other mapping companies using copyright combined with contract.
>You say that we don't have a contract but the CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence says:
>"TO
>THE EXTENT THIS LICENSE MAY BE CONSIDERED TO BE A *CONTRACT*, THE LICENSOR
>GRANTS YOU THE RIGHTS CONTAINED HERE *IN CONSIDERATION OF YOUR ACCEPTANCE
>OF
>SUCH TERMS AND CONDITIONS*" (my emphasis). 

Perhaps the question here is whether there is any contract with OSM. What
consideration is being given by a user of the data for one to be formed?


>So we OSMF can distribute
>under CC-BY-SA 3.0 or above, CC-BY-SA 3.0 (and above) is a contract (to the
>extent that it can be in law), and this is the very similar to the legal
>arrangements protecting Navteq's $8billion asset base. If we stick with
>CC-BY-SA then we don't have to ask permission of our contributors and the
>risk of any split removed.
>
>
>>
>> > Btw, where should this debate be happening? Personally I suggest the
>> legal
>> > nerdy details are discussed on lega

Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Chris Hill]

The presentation by the CEO of the OS shows that she takes OSM *very* 
seriously, perhaps even seriously enough to show our work in a bad light.
 
cheers,
Chris

- Original Message 
> From: martin dodge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Sent: Friday, 11 January, 2008 12:09:59 AM
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa
> Lawrence,
> 
 OS
> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/VL_why_place_matters.pdf
> with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
> 
> cheers
> martin
> 
> ___
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> 




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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 11 Jan 2008, at 11:21, David Earl wrote:

> On 11/01/2008 00:55, Jon Burgess wrote:
>> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 00:09 +, martin dodge wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa  
>>> Lawrence, OS
>>> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/ 
>>> VL_why_place_matters.pdf
>>> with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
>>>
>>
>> The map in his screenshot must be from quite some time ago. The same
>> area of central London now has considerably more data
>
> I think that misses the point. There are still many, many other areas
> where there is still just as little data, but that's not the point  
> either.
>
> The key thing is 'how do you know?'. If you look at the current  
> coverage
> of that London area, it probably looks quite convincing now,  
> whereas in
> her slide it was obviously incomplete, yet I bet it isn't (in fact, I
> know it isn't - there are numerous missing streets in the densely  
> mapped
> central London). How would I know this? How do I know whether I can
> trust this map or not? (*)
>
> This was and remains one of my key concerns about OSM as a project.  
> I've
> said before and I'll say again: we need a way of asserting "this  
> area is
> complete" (for one or more definitions of completeness).

I see your concerns. Having some kind of completeness test and be  
able to say : this area is 'complete' would be a strong point.
On the other hand, is Wikipedia complete? I don't think so. Nothing  
is compete:)

>
> Incidentally, this is exacerbated by the lazy rendering rule for  
> Mapnik

What do you mean by 'lazy' rule?  AFAIK, all available hardware is  
working hard day an night :)

> - I was puzzled when someone said to me the other day "why is this
> housing estate not connected to the rest of the road network?". It  
> was;
> but adjacent Mapnik tiles were inconsistent (both laterally and by  
> zoom
> level - and this wasn't a recently mapped area). You may not think  
> this
> matters, but I think this is a public face and it causes further
> confusion and mistrust.

We can certainly improve here. Suggestions ?

Artem

>
> David
>
>
> (* And how would I know how to fill in the gaps if I was there without
> revisiting every already mapped street?).
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[David Earl]

On 11/01/2008 00:55, Jon Burgess wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 00:09 +, martin dodge wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa Lawrence, OS
>> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/VL_why_place_matters.pdf
>> with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
>>
> 
> The map in his screenshot must be from quite some time ago. The same
> area of central London now has considerably more data

I think that misses the point. There are still many, many other areas 
where there is still just as little data, but that's not the point either.

The key thing is 'how do you know?'. If you look at the current coverage 
of that London area, it probably looks quite convincing now, whereas in 
her slide it was obviously incomplete, yet I bet it isn't (in fact, I 
know it isn't - there are numerous missing streets in the densely mapped 
central London). How would I know this? How do I know whether I can 
trust this map or not? (*)

This was and remains one of my key concerns about OSM as a project. I've 
said before and I'll say again: we need a way of asserting "this area is 
complete" (for one or more definitions of completeness).

Incidentally, this is exacerbated by the lazy rendering rule for Mapnik 
- I was puzzled when someone said to me the other day "why is this 
housing estate not connected to the rest of the road network?". It was; 
but adjacent Mapnik tiles were inconsistent (both laterally and by zoom 
level - and this wasn't a recently mapped area). You may not think this 
matters, but I think this is a public face and it causes further 
confusion and mistrust.

David


(* And how would I know how to fill in the gaps if I was there without 
revisiting every already mapped street?).

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Re: [OSM-talk] administrative boundaries and is_in

[Alex S.]

Lukasz Stelmach wrote:
> Martijn Verwijmeren wrote:
>> It is fairly common for larger cities and even small towns in the US to
>> lie in more than one county.
> 
> Do those cities have their own administration that cooperates with all 
> the counties?

   The town of Bothell in Washington straddles the border between King 
and Snohomish counties.
   The town of Bothell has their own police force which can and does 
patrol the entire town, but the King County Sheriff can only patrol 
within Bothell the portion that is inside the boundary of King county.
   Etc.


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] where we are, where we're going

[rob]

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.

Quoting Peter Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Not true. The licence upgrade clause in CC-BY-SA 2.0 states in clause b:
> "You may distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or publicly
> digitally perform a Derivative Work only under the terms of this License, *a
> later version of this License* with the same License Elements as this
> License"(my emphasis). This allows the OSMF (on anyone else) to distribute
> OSM data using CC-BY-SA 3.0, 4.0 or whatever  I am really concerned that
> this whole drama is being built on false foundations.

The important part is that this applies only to a "Derivative Work".  
You cannot simply relicence the original work, in this case OSM, you  
have to create a derivative and you may then relicence that.

Also this only allows derivatives to be relicenced under the same CC  
licence, not another licence.

Now, that said, I would argue that anyone uploading new ways to OSM is  
creating a derivative work by changing OSM and this could be licenced  
under a later CC licence. This derivative could be relicenced CC 3.0.  
So OSM could upgrade to a new BY-SA by arranging for this to happen.

CC BY-SA 3.0 has the ability for derivatives of work that it covers to  
be relicenced under a different licence that CC declare compatible. It  
would be great if a data licence were to be declared compatible as  
this would make licence migration for OSM much easier, but it is  
unlikely that CC would do this given their stance on data that Richard  
has mentioned.

> I am not really convinced by your argument on copyright/DB rights. A map is
> not a factual in the same way that a gazetteer would be or a telephone
> directory. Other mapping companies using copyright combined with contract.

In order to do this the materials to be licenced must be copyrightable.

> You say that we don't have a contract but the CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence says: "TO
> THE EXTENT THIS LICENSE MAY BE CONSIDERED TO BE A *CONTRACT*, THE LICENSOR
> GRANTS YOU THE RIGHTS CONTAINED HERE *IN CONSIDERATION OF YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF
> SUCH TERMS AND CONDITIONS*"

That's very interesting, I hadn't thought about that part of the  
licence before. There may be two problems in using it for OSM though.

Firstly the rights and requirements that are granted are those  
regulated by copyright, not database right or any other rights. If the  
licence was applied to a trademark or patent (non-copyright legal  
items) or a public list of mere facts (something with no possible  
restrictions), would this contract assertion have any legal force?

Secondly, in the US, there are issues to whether something is a  
licence or a contract and I'm not sure that the "consideration" of  
accepting the terms would be sufficient. This clause looks like a  
shrinkwrap licence.

> (my emphasis). So we OSMF can distribute
> under CC-BY-SA 3.0 or above, CC-BY-SA 3.0 (and above) is a contract (to the
> extent that it can be in law), and this is the very similar to the legal
> arrangements protecting Navteq's $8billion asset base. If we stick with
> CC-BY-SA then we don't have to ask permission of our contributors and the
> risk of any split removed.

I doubt that BY-SA could be used to cover data in the US.

I am curious about how Navteq work, though. This sounds worth investigating.

Here's a sample Navteq licence (with lots of redacted clauses...):

http://contracts.onecle.com/navteq/harman.lic.shtml

- Rob.



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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - lake

[Etric Celine]

On Friday 11 January 2008 08:33:17 Michael Collinson wrote:
> Yes, probably logical if we started from scratch but today it exactly
> duplicates natural=water which is very, very widely used - 9421 times
> according to the Statistics link
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:natural, though I suspect
> that is out of date.  

It's not out of date, but it's only the statistics for germany. The data 
itself is from the 9.01.2008.

Joerg

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Re: [OSM-talk] Kosmos v1.3 - shaded relief

[Artem Pavlenko]

Hi Igor,

On 10 Jan 2008, at 22:46, Igor Brejc wrote:

> Hello everybody,
>
> Kosmos rendering engine has a new version (1.3). The main new  
> feature is
> relief shading tool in Kosmos.Gui, which can automatically download  
> and
> process SRTM3 data for a given map area.
> If you're interested, visit http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/ 
> Kosmos.

I've tried latest Kosmos and it works fine, though a bit slow. Are  
you planning to release source?
I'm interested to try your shaded relief algorithm. Also, how do you  
fill voids ?

Cheers
Artem

>
> Good night,
> Igor Brejc
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 11 Jan 2008, at 09:22, Nick Black wrote:

> We should catalogue the errors and send them back into the OS so they
> can do better next time.

We can time how long it would take them to fix it.

>
> On Jan 11, 2008 8:47 AM, 80n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Jan 11, 2008 8:18 AM, Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> martin dodge wrote:
>>>
 Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa
 Lawrence, OS
 http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/
 VL_why_place_matters.pdf
 with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
>>>
>>> That's rather nice!
>>>
>>> Mrs F points out, however, that the photo in slide 32 ("22 Pine
>>> Street, Swindon") is almost certainly not in Swindon, and indeed
>>> there is no Pine Street in Swindon. So I'd be very wary of taking  
>>> the
>>> slide's suggestion to route ambulances using OS data. Much more
>>> reliable to use OSM. ;)
>>>
>>
>> And on slide 42, Wellington is a place in Somerset, not  
>> Northumberland.
>>
>> 80n
>>
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Nick Black
> 
> http://www.blacksworld.net
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to photo fold-out maps

[Andy Allan]

On Jan 11, 2008 7:33 AM, Lars Aronsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have an 1909 out-of-copyright book from the library.  It has a
> fold-out map that is bound with the book, so I can't take it out.
> How do I hold the map flat to get a good photo?

Another thing you might want to try is getting further away and using
a longer lens.  50mm is quite short and the barrel distortion around
the edge is noticeable - try a longer lens (300mm) and take pictures
of smaller areas if necessary.

Is there a photocopier in the library that you can use?

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] proposal templates

[Lars Aronsson]

Robin Paulson wrote:

> as you can see, i'm not a mediawiki gurui probably got the
> terminology wrong, yes i was using templates in it's more generic
> meaning.

I think you can achieve this by "subst:ing" a Mediawiki template.



-- 
  Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Summer of Code

[Nick Black]

Yeah, we really need to get our acts together this year.  I'm happy to
co-ordinate things and chase application etc.

We need mentors on-board though.

On Jan 11, 2008 10:21 AM, Tom Chance <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I see on this page that the OSM community needs to get together the
> Summer of Code ideas pretty quick:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Google_Summer_of_Code
>
> Is anyone working on this? I have an idea that I've added (accessibility
> analysis tools) but don't want to put too much more effort in unless it
> looks like OSM will meet the deadline.
>
> Kind regards,
> Tom
>
>
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[OSM-talk] Google Summer of Code

[Tom Chance]

Hello,

I see on this page that the OSM community needs to get together the
Summer of Code ideas pretty quick:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Google_Summer_of_Code

Is anyone working on this? I have an idea that I've added (accessibility
analysis tools) but don't want to put too much more effort in unless it
looks like OSM will meet the deadline.

Kind regards,
Tom


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[OSM-legal-talk] where we are, where we're going

[Peter Miller]

> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:00:27 +
> From: Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] The OSM licence: where we are,  where
>   we're   and are, where we're going
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
>   format="flowed"
> 
> (follow-ups to legal-talk, please)
> 
> Peter Miller wrote:
> 
> > There are clearly uncertainties and complications with the current
> licence,
> > however it does allow for the license to be upgraded without going back
> to
> > original contributors for permission.
> 
> In OSM's case that's unlikely to be true.
> 
> Copyright in OSM contributions is owned by the original contributors,
> not by OSMF. As the CC-BY-SA 2.0 summary says, "A new version of this
> license is available. You should use it for new works, and you may
> want to relicense existing works under it. No works are automatically
> put under the new license, however."
> 
> Since no works are automatically put under the new licence, every
> contributor would have to choose to move to (say) CC-Data-BY-SA just
> as they would any other licence.
> 
>

Not true. The licence upgrade clause in CC-BY-SA 2.0 states in clause b:
"You may distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or publicly
digitally perform a Derivative Work only under the terms of this License, *a
later version of this License* with the same License Elements as this
License"(my emphasis). This allows the OSMF (on anyone else) to distribute
OSM data using CC-BY-SA 3.0, 4.0 or whatever  I am really concerned that
this whole drama is being built on false foundations.

  
> > As such I feel confident that CC could
> > come up with a derivative of CC-BY-SA 3.0 that covers our needs and plug
> the
> > gaps (and those of other gedata/DB type datasets generally); after all,
> if
> > the ODL can do it then why can't CC do it
> 
> The following background is absolutely crucial. It's in the
> OpenGeoData post but I'll take the chance to restate it. I'd encourage
> you, Longbow4u and others to reflect on it.
> 
> * The Open Data Commons Database Licence is a share-alike licence with
> attribution elements. It is, as you say, "in the spirit of CC-BY-SA".
> 
> * Its authors are working with Creative Commons.
> 
> * Creative Commons has a strong policy that "facts are free"[1]. They
> have therefore now introduced a "licence" for factual information, but
> this is essentially public domain (CC0/PDDL) with a voluntary request
> to share info. We are _not_ recommending that OSM adopts that licence.
> The ODC Database Licence is entirely separate.
> 
> 
> So to specifically answer your point about "if the ODL can do it then
> why can't CC do it":
> 
> * CC doesn't believe factual information should be subject to
> restrictions, so _won't_ do it.
> 
> * But if CC were to do it (if, for example, they were lobbied to do
> so), their existing collaboration with ODC makes it very likely that
> they would actually adopt the Open Data Commons Database Licence.
> 
> In other words, this option is significantly _more_ copyleft than CC
> themselves propose.
> 

I am not really convinced by your argument on copyright/DB rights. A map is
not a factual in the same way that a gazetteer would be or a telephone
directory. Other mapping companies using copyright combined with contract.
You say that we don't have a contract but the CC-BY-SA 3.0 licence says: "TO
THE EXTENT THIS LICENSE MAY BE CONSIDERED TO BE A *CONTRACT*, THE LICENSOR
GRANTS YOU THE RIGHTS CONTAINED HERE *IN CONSIDERATION OF YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF
SUCH TERMS AND CONDITIONS*" (my emphasis). So we OSMF can distribute
under CC-BY-SA 3.0 or above, CC-BY-SA 3.0 (and above) is a contract (to the
extent that it can be in law), and this is the very similar to the legal
arrangements protecting Navteq's $8billion asset base. If we stick with
CC-BY-SA then we don't have to ask permission of our contributors and the
risk of any split removed.


> 
> > Btw, where should this debate be happening? Personally I suggest the
> legal
> > nerdy details are discussed on legal-talk but any discussion about
> > principles are discussed on 'talk'
> 
> It's a good point, but in practice legal-talk will work best because
> it's very difficult to separate the two, and because discussions will
> drift from one to the other. We also don't want to overwhelm the rest
> of the project with it!
> 

Fine. Can I suggest that you respond to discussions that leak across onto
talk and encourage them back to legal-talk or we will end up having two
discussions in parallel.

Keep up the good work!

Peter


> cheers
> Richard
> 
> 
> [1] From their database FAQ: "As you know, Creative Commons and
> Science Commons work to promote freely available content and
> information. Our preference is that people do not overstate their
> copyright or other legal rights. Consequently, we adopt the position
> that 'facts

Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[J.D. Schmidt]

Nick Black skrev:
> We should catalogue the errors and send them back into the OS so they
> can do better next time.

Just send them a dump of the DB, and then look for a CC-by-SA OSM 
copyright notice on the OS Mastermap, sometime within the next 6 month.

Dutch

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Nick Black]

We should catalogue the errors and send them back into the OS so they
can do better next time.

On Jan 11, 2008 8:47 AM, 80n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jan 11, 2008 8:18 AM, Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > martin dodge wrote:
> >
> > > Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa
> > > Lawrence, OS
> > > http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/
> > > VL_why_place_matters.pdf
> > > with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
> >
> > That's rather nice!
> >
> > Mrs F points out, however, that the photo in slide 32 ("22 Pine
> > Street, Swindon") is almost certainly not in Swindon, and indeed
> > there is no Pine Street in Swindon. So I'd be very wary of taking the
> > slide's suggestion to route ambulances using OS data. Much more
> > reliable to use OSM. ;)
> >
>
> And on slide 42, Wellington is a place in Somerset, not Northumberland.
>
> 80n
>
> >
> > cheers
> > Richard
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
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>



-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Jo]

80n wrote:
> On Jan 11, 2008 8:18 AM, Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> martin dodge wrote:
>
> > Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa
> > Lawrence, OS
> > http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/
> 
> > VL_why_place_matters.pdf
> > with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
>
> That's rather nice!
>
> Mrs F points out, however, that the photo in slide 32 ("22 Pine
> Street, Swindon") is almost certainly not in Swindon, and indeed
> there is no Pine Street in Swindon. So I'd be very wary of taking the
> slide's suggestion to route ambulances using OS data. Much more
> reliable to use OSM. ;)
>
>
> And on slide 42, Wellington is a place in Somerset, not Northumberland.
42, wasn't that the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the 
Universe, and Everything?

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Re: [OSM-talk] administrative boundaries and is_in

[Lukasz Stelmach]

Martijn Verwijmeren wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:11:03 +0100
Lukasz Stelmach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My point is that as far as the administration and adminstrative 
boundaries are conserned, they do coincide.


No, they don't. Reading the wikipedia stuff you linked:

"Kansas City is the largest city in the state of Missouri. It
encompasses 318 square miles in parts of Jackson, Clay, Cass, and
Platte counties."

It is fairly common for larger cities and even small towns in the US to
lie in more than one county.


Do those cities have their own administration that cooperates with 
all the counties?



--
Było mi bardzo miło.   Czwarta pospolita klęska, [...]
>Łukasz< Już nie katolicka lecz złodziejska.  (c)PP


--
Rozdajemy nagrody! 


Sprawdz >> http://link.interia.pl/f1cbf

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - lake

[Michael Collinson]

At 03:46 AM 1/11/2008, Robin Paulson wrote:
>is there any reason why this proposal has so many opposers?
>
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Lake
>
>it seems a logical one to me, we need to differentiate between lakes
>and rivers, canals, etc.

Yes, probably logical if we started from scratch but today it exactly 
duplicates natural=water which is very, very widely used - 9421 times 
according to the Statistics link 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:natural, though I suspect 
that is out of date.  There is also natural=coastline, so there is 
another logic too.

Mike


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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[80n]

On Jan 11, 2008 8:18 AM, Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> martin dodge wrote:
>
> > Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa
> > Lawrence, OS
> > http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/
> > VL_why_place_matters.pdf
> > with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46
>
> That's rather nice!
>
> Mrs F points out, however, that the photo in slide 32 ("22 Pine
> Street, Swindon") is almost certainly not in Swindon, and indeed
> there is no Pine Street in Swindon. So I'd be very wary of taking the
> slide's suggestion to route ambulances using OS data. Much more
> reliable to use OSM. ;)
>

And on slide 42, Wellington is a place in Somerset, not Northumberland.

80n


>
> cheers
> Richard
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to photo fold-out maps

[Richard Fairhurst]

Lester Caine wrote:

> For this map
> http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/index.php?page=British+Isles
> I ended up scanning each section and then tidying things up with  
> paintshoppro.

Yes, I'm taking that approach with the NPE scans at the moment - scan  
"as is", then manually straighten. I've written a bit of Perl to do  
this, using the fabulous Imager library:

http://search.cpan.org/src/TONYC/Imager-0.62/samples/quad_to_square.pl

but I believe you can also do it with gdal should you so desire.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] administrative boundaries and is_in

[Lester Caine]

Lukasz Stelmach wrote:
> Please, are we talking about administrative boundaries? OK about 
> boundaries and is_in. That is the problem. I think, and I do it, that, 
> is in should reflect administrative structure. Not at all levels but 
> most. E.g.
> 
> place=country,name=Polska,name:en=Poland,is_in=Europe
> 
> but
> 
> place=town,name=Mszczonów,is_in=Mszczonów,żyrardowski,mazowieckie,Polska

The discussion probably needs to be split.
the is_in tab SHOULD be dropped altogether since the other alternative is 
insisting that every entry has an is_in tag?
PROVIDING an is_in result from areas contained on the map is the correct way 
of doing things in the future, but adding hundreds of thousands of 
is_in=Mszczonów,żyrardowski,mazowieckie,Polska type tags is just going to make 
the raw data unmanageable.

( As some of you will know I HATE tags anyway - from a data storage point of 
view they are simply wrong, and if there was a unique 'place' table with 
proper hierarchical links, then the 'żyrardowski,mazowieckie,Polska' would 
just be read from the 'Mszczonów' entry - and we could add alternate language 
versions as well ! )

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk
MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to photo fold-out maps

[Lester Caine]

Lars Aronsson wrote:
> I have an 1909 out-of-copyright book from the library.  It has a 
> fold-out map that is bound with the book, so I can't take it out.
> How do I hold the map flat to get a good photo?
> 
> My current photos are not my proudest moment:
> 
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:LA2-stridfin-overviewmap-left.jpg
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:LA2-stridfin-overviewmap-right.jpg

I have a lot of material like this, and even when it's removed from the book 
and flattened it still does not scan properly.
For this map
http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/index.php?page=British+Isles
I ended up scanning each section and then tidying things up with paintshoppro.
( I still need to load the larger versions that go with each page of that - 
4Gb! )

I think the only way to get truly flat images is via a rotary scanner which is 
obviously out of the question with a book :(

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk
MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why place matters, slides from Vanessa Lawrence talk

[Richard Fairhurst]

martin dodge wrote:

> Just found an interesting set of slides of a talk by Vanessa  
> Lawrence, OS
> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/eGov-dc/presentations/ 
> VL_why_place_matters.pdf
> with some prominent mentions for OSM. I particularly liked slide 46

That's rather nice!

Mrs F points out, however, that the photo in slide 32 ("22 Pine  
Street, Swindon") is almost certainly not in Swindon, and indeed  
there is no Pine Street in Swindon. So I'd be very wary of taking the  
slide's suggestion to route ambulances using OS data. Much more  
reliable to use OSM. ;)

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC - model aerodrome

[Lester Caine]

Robin Paulson wrote:
> this proposal has been languishing for 2+ months now, with little discussion
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Model%27s_Aerodrome
> 
> please could i get some comments

I've posted comments there but I think that we need to get a higher level 
discussion under way on the hierarchy of the tagging system. And I'm not sure 
where to start it? Here or create a wiki page?

I'll outline things here.

There are two areas to be covered which are probably separate discussions but 
they dovetail together logically. Simply FINDING a tag is currently tedious 
and then knowing what to use with that tag becomes even more fun :(

We have a number of top keys which I think need to be combined and layered to 
give a more logical progression.

Going back to basics we have two types of element to manage a linear structure 
or an area ( a node is just a special case of an area, but even that may well 
have an area at a large enough scale ). The only difference between the two is 
  that the line segments on an area must meet at the ends and while the M25 
may be a circle, the area within it is different to the route itself.

highway, waterway and railway are essentially 'way' type=xxx to which cycle, 
track, aerial can then be added. But rather than being too drastic, I think 
that three basic definitions can be applied to keep top level more manageable.

highway - unconstrained route
railway - constrained by track ( should be trackway but that will confuse )
waterway - constrained by water course

Cycleway is just a type of highway
Tracktype is just a secondary key for a number of highway types
Aerialway is a type of railway

There *IS* a case for simply combining all three, but apart from a few special 
cases the general rule is that vehicles do not move from one type to the 
other. I'll ignore amphibious cars, and the busway discussion identifies that 
only specially modified vehicles should move from highway to trackway.

Airports are obviously a slight ambiguity since they have highways for taxiing 
and for taking off, but an airport should be a bounded area containing those 
features. I think this actually highlights the problem with the current 
structure where aeroway=aerodrome is defined for nodes when in fact it is an 
area?

This is where the other discussion dovetails in ...

All of the component parts of an airport 'is_in' the airport, but this is 
currently not managed properly. In the same way that country, county/state, 
town, locality and the like are not managed.

We need as a matter of urgency to correctly manage the relationship between 
areas and the structures they contain. YES there are problems where an area 
straddles other areas, but that is just a special case that needs handling. If 
I search for all 'model_aerodrome' in the UK that is a reasonable request, but 
having to add 'is_in' to every tag is not the solution and needs to stopped now?

Once we have the concept of area, landuse becomes obvious, and amenity in that 
area follows on?
retail->shop ? cafe and the like
leisure->sport ? even where professional activity the watching of is leisure
military->military

Obviously linear features like power lines, underground storm drains and the 
like need catering for but those type of features may just a special case?

( I'd still like to see numeric tagging with a multilingual title table even 
though I only speak English but that will come another day, for the moment we 
have to use English keys for the translation table :(
- it would be nice if the translated versions of Map_Features had a column for 
the translated tag names! )

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk
MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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