Re: [OSM-talk] city names mis-placed

[80n]

Robin
This is a known issue with the new lowzoom mechanism.  Its currently being
investigated.

80n

On Feb 6, 2008 10:00 PM, Robin Paulson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> i was perusing the map around the england area, when i noticed a heap
> of city names way off from where they should be. brighton, salisbury,
> norwich, bangor, swansea, machester, exeter, truro and lots of others
> are a good 100km north of where they should be.
>
> this shows on zoom level 7 and 6 but not anything closer. i don't know
> france and the rest of europe too well, but they didn't look right
> either. brest is way out in the channel and paris in the middle of
> nowhere
>
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.51&lon=-0.28&zoom=7&layers=0BFT
>
> any ideas?
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Coastline in Mapnik

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> I have switch the Mapnik layer over to use the new coastline shapefiles
> for zooms 10-18. These files are generated by extracting all the OSM
> ways with natural=coastline.

Looks cool.

How often are the shapefiles updated?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] New Coastline in Mapnik

[Jon Burgess]

On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 22:41 +, Jon Burgess wrote:
> You can get an overview of the data from:
>  tile.openstreetmap.nl

That should be: http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/coastlines.html

Jon



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[OSM-talk] New Coastline in Mapnik

[Jon Burgess]

I have switch the Mapnik layer over to use the new coastline shapefiles
for zooms 10-18. These files are generated by extracting all the OSM
ways with natural=coastline.

In most places these shapefiles are far better then what we had before.
A few places either have bad coastline data and may now appear to be
flooded. You can get an overview of the data from:
http://tile.openstreetmap.nl

There was a brief period this evening where an error caused all tiles to
be flooded. This is fixed now and these tiles should have been
re-rendered. If you saw these bad tiles earlier you might need to
refresh your browser to get rid of them.

I need to thank everyone that has worked diligently on importing and
fixing up the coastline data. A special mention should also go to
Martijn van Oosterhout (kleptog) for developing the tools that have been
essential to fix these coastlines and create the new shapefiles.

Jon





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Re: [OSM-talk] Crazy ways after editing - A real argument for changeset data

[David Muir Sharnoff]

I've now fixed the trouble.   I used JOSM to do it.   Here's what I did:

1.  Figure out how to install JOSM, install/enable YWMS, download data.
2.  Figure out how to use JOSM a bit.   The key things for me where the
 select mode, the edit mode, zooming and panning with the keyboard.
3.  Using potlatch, place a reference dot where the end of one of my
 broken ways should be.
4.  Select all the broken stuff.  For me that was both whole ways and
 selected points from partially-broken ways.
5.  Tag them with "notes3: Oakland Potlach Fubar"
6.  Using the scrolling keys, drag the whole lot of them half a screen
 at  time back to where they should be.

Since it's a problem that's created by Potlatch but needs JOSM to
repair, it's going to be hard for anyone else who gets hit.

That all said, I wish flash-zoom worked.   I like Potlatch.  In the
hills of Oakland, it's really hard to see where the streets are even
with flash-zoom.   Often impossible without.   Sometimes I have to
compare to Google imagery which is MUCH better.

-Dave

On Feb 6, 2008 4:46 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder)
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> David,
>
> I took a look at this area a little more closely with JOSM and I can see its
> not straight forwards to correct because it's not just one way that got
> moved but blocks of connected ways from what I can tell. Unfortunately they
> now lie over the top of other exiting ways so its difficult to select the
> ones effected so that they can be simply slid back. I think the only way to
> sort it will be to evaluate the history data for the nodes in the whole
> area. From this you can see which nodes (and hence ways) were moved at
> around the same time instance.
>
> For instance if I look at two connected ways that are displaced (6331826 and
> 6397132) and look at the node history for some of their nodes  I can see
> that their position was last moved at a timestamp around
> "2008-02-04T04:32:24+00:00" they vary by some minutes in some cases so
> perhaps it took a while for all the changes to update to the database.
> Anyway, if a bit more checking was done it should be possible to automate a
> rollback for all the affected data. Would need someone perhaps to help with
> scripting that so perhaps David Hansen can assist with ideas.
>
> Another option might be to use last week's planet dump and do a compare and
> revert between the state last week and the state now. This will though mean
> you loose data from the time of planet last week to Feb 04 if a delete and
> re-insert is done.
>
> Lets hope the folks that are looking at change set info via the API can find
> us a long term solution to this problem as I'm sure its going to happen
> again soon.
>
> Hope this helps  move things along for you.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk-
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SteveC
> >Sent: 06 February 2008 11:11 AM
> >To: David Muir Sharnoff
> >Cc: OSM-Talk Openstreetmap
> >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Crazy ways after editing
> >
> >David,
> >
> >There is also a talk-us list which may be of help in future.
> >
> >On 5 Feb 2008, at 18:46, David Muir Sharnoff wrote:
> >
> >> The area of Oakland, California I've been editing
> >> (with Potlatch) suddenly changed in a very bad way.
> >>
> >> There are a whole bunch of ways (at least 50,
> >> perhaps a lot more) that have had one or more
> >> of their points move several miles south-east.
> >>
> >> A major street, Park Ave, seems to have
> >> disappeared entirely.   Or, at least, I can't find
> >> it any more.
> >>
> >> Edit at this location to see:
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.81886&lon=-
> >122.21229&zoom=16&layers=B0FT
> >>
> >> Some example ways that are messed up:
> >> 6403309, Saint James Dr.
> >> 6380125, Somerset Rd
> >> 6365079, Pershing Dr
> >> 6391271, Indian Rd
> >> 6381464, Hampton Rd
> >> 6374990, Excelsior Ave
> >> 6359191, E 33rd St
> >> 6390297, Everett Ave
> >>
> >> Does anyone have any idea what happened
> >> or how to fix it?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> -Dave
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >
> >have fun,
> >
> >SteveC | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.asklater.com/steve/
> >
> >
> >
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>
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits

[Andy Robinson (blackadder)]

80n [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Sent: 06 February 2008 9:12 PM
>To: Andy Robinson (blackadder)
>Cc: Dave Stubbs; talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits
>
>If the server were to provide the original timestamp as an additional
>attribute, and reject if it didn't match on upload, then problems like this
>could be prevented.
>
>It would also be a proper solution to update conflicts.
>
>80n
>

That sounds like a very logical and elegant solution.

Cheers

Andy

>
>
>On Feb 6, 2008 6:05 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder)
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>   Dave Stubbs wrote:
>   >Sent: 06 February 2008 5:58 PM
>   >To: talk@openstreetmap.org
>   >Subject: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits
>
>   >
>   >I don't know who/what they are, but there are a large number of low
>   >number nodes that have been utterly destroyed. Basically 522-603
and
>a
>   >few others in the 1000's have been moved halfway round the planet.
>   >
>   >I fixed node 1205, but it's going to be making a mess of the mapnik
>map.
>   >Is there an easy way to find these and revert them?
>   >
>   >And can we make the server reject edits which move nodes further
>than
>   >a certain distance?
>
>
>   This sounds like the problem we had before with a user changing the
>negative
>   ID numbers for uncreated items in JOSM, or perhaps creating their
own
>manual
>   data and not using negative ID's. Removing the negative of course
>changes
>   the item entirely.
>
>   Cheers
>
>   Andy
>
>
>
>   >
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>
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>
>



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[OSM-talk] city names mis-placed

[Robin Paulson]

i was perusing the map around the england area, when i noticed a heap
of city names way off from where they should be. brighton, salisbury,
norwich, bangor, swansea, machester, exeter, truro and lots of others
are a good 100km north of where they should be.

this shows on zoom level 7 and 6 but not anything closer. i don't know
france and the rest of europe too well, but they didn't look right
either. brest is way out in the channel and paris in the middle of
nowhere


http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.51&lon=-0.28&zoom=7&layers=0BFT

any ideas?

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Re: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits

[80n]

If the server were to provide the original timestamp as an additional
attribute, and reject if it didn't match on upload, then problems like this
could be prevented.

It would also be a proper solution to update conflicts.

80n


On Feb 6, 2008 6:05 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder) <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dave Stubbs wrote:
> >Sent: 06 February 2008 5:58 PM
> >To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> >Subject: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits
> >
> >I don't know who/what they are, but there are a large number of low
> >number nodes that have been utterly destroyed. Basically 522-603 and a
> >few others in the 1000's have been moved halfway round the planet.
> >
> >I fixed node 1205, but it's going to be making a mess of the mapnik map.
> >Is there an easy way to find these and revert them?
> >
> >And can we make the server reject edits which move nodes further than
> >a certain distance?
>
> This sounds like the problem we had before with a user changing the
> negative
> ID numbers for uncreated items in JOSM, or perhaps creating their own
> manual
> data and not using negative ID's. Removing the negative of course changes
> the item entirely.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
> >
> >___
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Keyboard navigation defunct

[80n]

On Feb 6, 2008 4:44 PM, Karl Eichwalder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> With a sudden keyboard navigation (+, -, arrow keys) stopped working at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/ .  And now it is also defunct at
> http://www.informationfreeway.org/ .
> ATM I'm running Firefox on MacOS X.
>

Works for me on informationfreeway using FF2 on Windows.


>
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Re: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits

[Dave Stubbs]

On Feb 6, 2008 8:39 PM, Jon Burgess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 20:23 +, Dave Stubbs wrote:
> > On Feb 6, 2008 7:06 PM, Dave Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Feb 6, 2008 5:57 PM, Dave Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > I don't know who/what they are, but there are a large number of low
> > > > number nodes that have been utterly destroyed. Basically 522-603 and a
> > > > few others in the 1000's have been moved halfway round the planet.
> >
> > And now I've got a response from the user who is very apologetic.
> > Apparently he created a custom .osm file from a script and tried to
> > upload it using JOSM without realising he needed to use -ve IDs. I've
> > let him know, and asked him to send me the .osm file so I can check if
> > it clobbered anything else.
> >
> > Dave
>
> If you've already imported the data into a Mapnik Postgres DB then the
> following should remove them. This is based on deleting all ways which
> cross over a sea tile just off the coast of South America:
>
> gis=> delete from planet_osm_line where way && 
> GeomFromText('POLYGON((-3757032.81427298 2504683.91830469,-3757032.81427298 
> 3763310.62714417,-2504688.54284866 3763310.62714417,-2504688.54284866 
> 2504683.91830469,-3757032.81427298 2504683.91830469))',900913);
> DELETE 17
> gis=> delete from planet_osm_roads where way && 
> GeomFromText('POLYGON((-3757032.81427298 2504683.91830469,-3757032.81427298 
> 3763310.62714417,-2504688.54284866 3763310.62714417,-2504688.54284866 
> 2504683.91830469,-3757032.81427298 2504683.91830469))',900913);
> DELETE 1

I went for the slightly easier (from me typing point of view) method
of deleting all ways over about 15,000km in length :-)
The counts for that were 22, and 7, so it's catching a few more, but
probably nothing I'm interested in.

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Re: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits

[Jon Burgess]

On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 20:23 +, Dave Stubbs wrote:
> On Feb 6, 2008 7:06 PM, Dave Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Feb 6, 2008 5:57 PM, Dave Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I don't know who/what they are, but there are a large number of low
> > > number nodes that have been utterly destroyed. Basically 522-603 and a
> > > few others in the 1000's have been moved halfway round the planet.
> 
> And now I've got a response from the user who is very apologetic.
> Apparently he created a custom .osm file from a script and tried to
> upload it using JOSM without realising he needed to use -ve IDs. I've
> let him know, and asked him to send me the .osm file so I can check if
> it clobbered anything else.
> 
> Dave

If you've already imported the data into a Mapnik Postgres DB then the
following should remove them. This is based on deleting all ways which
cross over a sea tile just off the coast of South America:

gis=> delete from planet_osm_line where way && 
GeomFromText('POLYGON((-3757032.81427298 2504683.91830469,-3757032.81427298 
3763310.62714417,-2504688.54284866 3763310.62714417,-2504688.54284866 
2504683.91830469,-3757032.81427298 2504683.91830469))',900913);
DELETE 17
gis=> delete from planet_osm_roads where way && 
GeomFromText('POLYGON((-3757032.81427298 2504683.91830469,-3757032.81427298 
3763310.62714417,-2504688.54284866 3763310.62714417,-2504688.54284866 
2504683.91830469,-3757032.81427298 2504683.91830469))',900913);
DELETE 1


Jon



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Re: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits

[Dave Stubbs]

On Feb 6, 2008 7:06 PM, Dave Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 2008 5:57 PM, Dave Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I don't know who/what they are, but there are a large number of low
> > number nodes that have been utterly destroyed. Basically 522-603 and a
> > few others in the 1000's have been moved halfway round the planet.

And now I've got a response from the user who is very apologetic.
Apparently he created a custom .osm file from a script and tried to
upload it using JOSM without realising he needed to use -ve IDs. I've
let him know, and asked him to send me the .osm file so I can check if
it clobbered anything else.

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering problem (was: Cycle route improvements)

[Jon Burgess]

On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 20:29 +0100, Ben Laenen wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 February 2008, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
> > Are you using template ? You should have replaced all occurrences of
> > %params% with real things
> 
> I don't have to do that manually, do I? I just enter the variables in 
> set-mapnik-env, call customize-mapnik-map which replaces all %param% in 
> osm-template.xml which is saved to osm.xml.

That sounds fine.

> The evidence that it's working is that all symbols like for pubs and 
> stations are shown on the map for example.

You are getting other data for Postgres OK so the input plugin is
working. The only time I saw something similar recently was when the
osm.xml had the following:

true

This caused it to lose parks other polygon features in some places of
the map. Setting it to false fixed this.

Jon



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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering problem (was: Cycle route improvements)

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 6 Feb 2008, at 19:29, Ben Laenen wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 February 2008, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
>> Are you using template ? You should have replaced all occurrences of
>> %params% with real things
>
> I don't have to do that manually, do I? I just enter the variables in
> set-mapnik-env, call customize-mapnik-map which replaces all %param 
> % in
> osm-template.xml which is saved to osm.xml.
>
> The evidence that it's working is that all symbols like for pubs and
> stations are shown on the map for example.

>
>> Also, make sure you have postgis.input installed
>
> I don't know what you mean with postgis".input" exactly, but I've
> installed postgresql8.2-postgis and ran it on the database, just like
> is mentioned on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Mapnik
>
> Are there some alternative osm.xml files somewhere which I could test
> out?

Ok, if you have pubs etc showing means you have mapnik (+postgis plug- 
in) installed. Could you compile Mapnik with DEBUG=y and see SQL  
statements being sent to postmaster ?

Oh, one more thing, just an idea :

try running
vacuum analyze planet_osm_;

Artem

>
> Ben


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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering problem (was: Cycle route improvements)

[Ben Laenen]

On Wednesday 06 February 2008, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
> Are you using template ? You should have replaced all occurrences of
> %params% with real things

I don't have to do that manually, do I? I just enter the variables in 
set-mapnik-env, call customize-mapnik-map which replaces all %param% in 
osm-template.xml which is saved to osm.xml.

The evidence that it's working is that all symbols like for pubs and 
stations are shown on the map for example.

> Also, make sure you have postgis.input installed

I don't know what you mean with postgis".input" exactly, but I've 
installed postgresql8.2-postgis and ran it on the database, just like 
is mentioned on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Mapnik

Are there some alternative osm.xml files somewhere which I could test 
out?

Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk] Keyboard navigation defunct

[Tom Hughes]

On 06/02/2008, Karl Eichwalder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > It was turned off because it causes too many problems as it doesn't
> > only capture keypresses aimed at the map. See:
> >
> >   http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/659
>
> It conflicted with "Search for text when I start typing" but otherwise
> it was very useful.  Still hoping we once will have something similar
> as maps.google.com.

It conflicted with any page that had text input fields and a map,
which is just about every page with a map... The front page has the
search box, the diary entry page has the diary entry (and that was a
major problem) and the user settings page has fields for all the user
settings.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Old or dialectal names

[Bèrto 'd Sèra]

LOL I'm from Kiev, Ukraine. But that's the last 6 and half year :) I was 
born in Biela, but my parents are from the Civass area, so I can 
undertand Bielèis but I cannot really speak it. My native language 
remains the Civass piedmontese, which very close to Turinèis, although a 
bit different in articles (they say "le stra", we say "jë stra").


The article about Vignà is http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vign%C3%A0 I 
already added the road you mentioned, you can add the others following 
the same standard.


As per orthography, Lissandren usually has a vocal shift in most tonic 
As (part those before an N- sound, where N- is like 'galin-a', and gets 
pronounced like the final English -ing, with a fully muted G). This 
shift is sometimes marked graphically and sometims isn't. If you choose 
to mark it, the proper letter is Ä. So you'd have 'can' (dog) and 'gät' 
(cat). Ä is read basically like a short Piedmontese Ò (and 100% 
identical to the Danish Å). Anyway, there is a fixed rule to have this 
vocal shift, so it doesn't matter whether you specify it or not.


When you have a map of Vignà ready I can assist you in putting it in the 
wiki.


Bèrto


wiseLYNX ?:

Bèrto 'd Sèra wrote:
  

Hi!

This message went in error to Dave Stubbs only, sorry Dave. I'm half
asleep and I when I'm like this I often press the wrong button :)

==

A small and humble correction: names are not "dialectal" as Piedmontese
is a full-fledged ISO 639-3 language (code PMS) and it is recognized as
"regional language" in the Statutory Chart of the Piedmont Region :)
It's also taught in state schools to thousands children in the last
years. So it does have a well defined standard orthography, too.



well, yes, I know. I simply didn't think it was _this_ important for OSM ^_^

  

You might want to check your orthography with the guys at
http://pms.wikipedia.org  (just get to the article about the
town/village you are mapping and enter your requests in the discussion,
or directly on the article, if you can write proper  piedmontese). If
you look for a less "encyclopedic" sire you can go here:
http://pms.i-iter.org/ I'm sure people will be eager to help you. In
both sites you will find an Open Source piedmontese keyboard for both a
standard american ANSI kb or an italian keyboard.



pity, I'm not that good to speak nor to write piedmontese, but for the
streen names I was talking about I can refer to the plaques in the town
(which is Vignale Monferrato, near Alessandria)

  

For the case you are stating there is only a couple of minor mistakes,
the correct form is "Contrà ëd mes" (as È is pronounced as in  french
Cafè, or in "Piemontèis").  Usually in the Turin area roads  are called
"Contrà", while when you move north towards Biela  you frequently meet
the term "Rua". Canals (not navigable) are usually called "Bialera",
small rivers are "Dòire". A full list of piedmontese toponims and a
first list of some local toponims is available here:
http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor%C3%ACa:Borgh_e_sit%C3%A0_d%C3%ABl_Piemont



They are "contrà", but being Vignale nearer Lombardia, it may be
something can change both in writing and in pronuciation.

  

you are very much welcome in extending it with road names etc :) It
would very nice and welcome if you put references to the openstreetmaps
with piedmontese toponims in it in the articles, too :)
You can drop me a line here:
http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciaciarade:B%C3%A8rto_%27d_S%C3%A8ra if
you need any assistance.



I'm quite new to OSM, what articles are you referring to?

  

Thank you for your time and work!
Bèrto



thank you Bèrto.. and, out of curiosity, because you too seem to come
from Piemonte, where are you from?

Enrico

  


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Re: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits

[Dave Stubbs]

On Feb 6, 2008 5:57 PM, Dave Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know who/what they are, but there are a large number of low
> number nodes that have been utterly destroyed. Basically 522-603 and a
> few others in the 1000's have been moved halfway round the planet.
>
> I fixed node 1205, but it's going to be making a mess of the mapnik map.
> Is there an easy way to find these and revert them?


OK, I wrote a script and reverted all these edits where the node
number was less than 2000.
Any others that get found will have to be done manually.

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Virtual highway?

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

The AND data does have ferry routes and yes, they go a long way sometimes.

Highway=virtual are dummy tags to indicate that you can get from
A-to-B for routing purposes but there's no real feature there. It's
used for example to link railways stations to the road network. They
don't need to be rendered as such but from a programatic aspect
they're very handy.

As for what it might mean in your specific case I don't know. AFAIK
there's no portal there or anything like that...

Have a nice day,

On Feb 6, 2008 11:32 AM, Rob Reid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just spotted a way from the recent AND India import that I'm not quite
> sure what to do with, its only 4 nodes long but covers over 1400 km :
> I suspect it could be a ferry route as another one goes from the same
> point of origin and it connects two islands but its tagged as
> highway=virtual and  follows a direct line passing over land as well so
> could be an air route as well I guess?
> Details are here : http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/22826679/full
>
> cheers
>
> rcr
>
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-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits

[Andy Robinson (blackadder)]

Dave Stubbs wrote:
>Sent: 06 February 2008 5:58 PM
>To: talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: [OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits
>
>I don't know who/what they are, but there are a large number of low
>number nodes that have been utterly destroyed. Basically 522-603 and a
>few others in the 1000's have been moved halfway round the planet.
>
>I fixed node 1205, but it's going to be making a mess of the mapnik map.
>Is there an easy way to find these and revert them?
>
>And can we make the server reject edits which move nodes further than
>a certain distance?

This sounds like the problem we had before with a user changing the negative
ID numbers for uncreated items in JOSM, or perhaps creating their own manual
data and not using negative ID's. Removing the negative of course changes
the item entirely.

Cheers

Andy


>
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[OSM-talk] User umehlig and some really nasty edits

[Dave Stubbs]

I don't know who/what they are, but there are a large number of low
number nodes that have been utterly destroyed. Basically 522-603 and a
few others in the 1000's have been moved halfway round the planet.

I fixed node 1205, but it's going to be making a mess of the mapnik map.
Is there an easy way to find these and revert them?

And can we make the server reject edits which move nodes further than
a certain distance?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Keyboard navigation defunct

[Karl Eichwalder]

> It was turned off because it causes too many problems as it doesn't
> only capture keypresses aimed at the map. See:
>
>   http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/659

It conflicted with "Search for text when I start typing" but otherwise
it was very useful.  Still hoping we once will have something similar
as maps.google.com.

Any idea how I can enable it on my own?  Using GreaseMonkey or such
alike?


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Yahoo satellite imagery in Merkaartor

[Richard Fairhurst]

Tom Hughes wrote:

> As I understand it Yahoo have explicitly said that they don't
> want us doing that and that we should only use one of the two
> APIs that I mentioned.

Indeed.

Specifically (AIUI) it is important to show the copyright notices. As  
it happens the Yahoo API displays the _wrong_ copyright notices but  
that's by the by.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Keyboard navigation defunct

[Tom Hughes]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  "Karl Eichwalder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> With a sudden keyboard navigation (+, -, arrow keys) stopped working at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/ .  And now it is also defunct at
> http://www.informationfreeway.org/ .
> ATM I'm running Firefox on MacOS X.

It was turned off because it causes too many problems as it doesn't
only capture keypresses aimed at the map. See:

  http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/659

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] Old or dialectal names

[wiseLYNX]

Bèrto 'd Sèra wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> This message went in error to Dave Stubbs only, sorry Dave. I'm half
> asleep and I when I'm like this I often press the wrong button :)
> 
> ==
> 
> A small and humble correction: names are not "dialectal" as Piedmontese
> is a full-fledged ISO 639-3 language (code PMS) and it is recognized as
> "regional language" in the Statutory Chart of the Piedmont Region :)
> It's also taught in state schools to thousands children in the last
> years. So it does have a well defined standard orthography, too.

well, yes, I know. I simply didn't think it was _this_ important for OSM ^_^

> You might want to check your orthography with the guys at
> http://pms.wikipedia.org  (just get to the article about the
> town/village you are mapping and enter your requests in the discussion,
> or directly on the article, if you can write proper  piedmontese). If
> you look for a less "encyclopedic" sire you can go here:
> http://pms.i-iter.org/ I'm sure people will be eager to help you. In
> both sites you will find an Open Source piedmontese keyboard for both a
> standard american ANSI kb or an italian keyboard.

pity, I'm not that good to speak nor to write piedmontese, but for the
streen names I was talking about I can refer to the plaques in the town
(which is Vignale Monferrato, near Alessandria)

> For the case you are stating there is only a couple of minor mistakes,
> the correct form is "Contrà ëd mes" (as È is pronounced as in  french
> Cafè, or in "Piemontèis").  Usually in the Turin area roads  are called
> "Contrà", while when you move north towards Biela  you frequently meet
> the term "Rua". Canals (not navigable) are usually called "Bialera",
> small rivers are "Dòire". A full list of piedmontese toponims and a
> first list of some local toponims is available here:
> http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor%C3%ACa:Borgh_e_sit%C3%A0_d%C3%ABl_Piemont

They are "contrà", but being Vignale nearer Lombardia, it may be
something can change both in writing and in pronuciation.

> you are very much welcome in extending it with road names etc :) It
> would very nice and welcome if you put references to the openstreetmaps
> with piedmontese toponims in it in the articles, too :)
> You can drop me a line here:
> http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciaciarade:B%C3%A8rto_%27d_S%C3%A8ra if
> you need any assistance.

I'm quite new to OSM, what articles are you referring to?

> Thank you for your time and work!
> Bèrto

thank you Bèrto.. and, out of curiosity, because you too seem to come
from Piemonte, where are you from?

Enrico

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[OSM-talk] Keyboard navigation defunct

[Karl Eichwalder]

With a sudden keyboard navigation (+, -, arrow keys) stopped working at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/ .  And now it is also defunct at
http://www.informationfreeway.org/ .
ATM I'm running Firefox on MacOS X.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Old or dialectal names

[Bèrto 'd Sèra]

Hi!

This message went in error to Dave Stubbs only, sorry Dave. I'm half 
asleep and I when I'm like this I often press the wrong button :)


==

A small and humble correction: names are not "dialectal" as Piedmontese 
is a full-fledged ISO 639-3 language (code PMS) and it is recognized as 
"regional language" in the Statutory Chart of the Piedmont Region :) 
It's also taught in state schools to thousands children in the last 
years. So it does have a well defined standard orthography, too.


You might want to check your orthography with the guys at 
http://pms.wikipedia.org  (just get to the article about the 
town/village you are mapping and enter your requests in the discussion, 
or directly on the article, if you can write proper  piedmontese). If 
you look for a less "encyclopedic" sire you can go here: 
http://pms.i-iter.org/ I'm sure people will be eager to help you. In 
both sites you will find an Open Source piedmontese keyboard for both a 
standard american ANSI kb or an italian keyboard.


For the case you are stating there is only a couple of minor mistakes, 
the correct form is "Contrà ëd mes" (as È is pronounced as in  french 
Cafè, or in "Piemontèis").  Usually in the Turin area roads  are called 
"Contrà", while when you move north towards Biela  you frequently meet 
the term "Rua". Canals (not navigable) are usually called "Bialera", 
small rivers are "Dòire". A full list of piedmontese toponims and a 
first list of some local toponims is available here:
http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor%C3%ACa:Borgh_e_sit%C3%A0_d%C3%ABl_Piemont 



you are very much welcome in extending it with road names etc :) It 
would very nice and welcome if you put references to the openstreetmaps 
with piedmontese toponims in it in the articles, too :)
You can drop me a line here: 
http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciaciarade:B%C3%A8rto_%27d_S%C3%A8ra if 
you need any assistance.


Thank you for your time and work!
Bèrto



wiseLYNX: I gather you and I speak the same language so...

S'it veule ansima a pms-i-iter as peul deurb-se na lista postal a pòsta 
për sossì. A-i é gnun problema a felo e butand an consideran che vàire 
gent a-i passa dzora tuti ij dì a l'é belfé che prest ò tard it treuve 
cheidun ch'at giuta. Tut sùbin tant tràfich a farà nen, ma se për esempi 
it ëscrive ant la lista tut lòn ch'it fase col temp la gent a taca a 
scriv-te ij nòm dle stra 'd sò pais. Bele che se a-i fussa nen ël temp 
material për ëscriv-je dlongh ant le carte, a resterìo sempe lì marcà 
për ël dì che 'l temp a-i sia :)


As peul adcò fé un cit club ant sla wiki, andoava che is coordinoma. Ël 
censiment dij topònim a l'é un-a dle priorità, përchè soèns a-i son bele 
mach pì ij vej ch'as viso ëd com as ciamèisso ij pòst, anans ch'a-j 
cambièisso nòm. Donca a venta fé ampressa a ciapeje e salveje, fin ch'i 
soma an temp a felo.


Për esperiensa, ij proget an piemontèis për sòlit a parto lent, però a 
chërso bastansa bin. A fé na cita comun-a d'utent ativ it-i bute squasi 
n'ann antregh, però la gent as treuva, e për sòlit a l'r gent ch'a l'ha 
gnun problema a buté euli 'd gomo fin ch'a basta. Prest a-i sarà 
n'ancontr dla wikipedia piemontèisa col pùblich, e a podrìa esse 
l'ocasion për presenté tò proget, s'at anteressa felo.


Fame savej
Bèrto :)


Dave Stubbs ?:

On Feb 6, 2008 1:39 PM, wiseLYNX <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Hi everybody,

I'm new to th OSM project, but I'm getting quite involved, as Torino
(Italy), where I live, is well covered with Yahoo aerials, and it's
quite effortless to fill in the neighborhoods of my home (which of
course I know very well, and I don't need to go around GPSing).

I have a question: I'm planning, as soon I'll be able, to insert maps
for a little town in the countryside, but I already know I'll have a
little issue. The place has streets and places called with "new" names,
given (I suppose) during the last century, but there are also (and
mainly) known with their older names. As an example, the streen were now
called Via Garibaldi, was called "Contrà ad mès" (middleway street, in
the local dialect). The local administration is trying to recover these
old names, and on plaques with street names are now showing both the new
and the old ones.

This issue anyway applies also in a number of other cases, where a place
is nown with an official but less used name, and an unofficial better
known one.

Is there a way to add this kind of information in OSM? I believe simply
putting the "other" name in parenthesis isn't the best solution..



If you look at the bottom end of Map Features on the wiki you can see
a variety of tags for names which might be useful. In particular
old_name and loc_name may be what you want.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features#Name


Dave
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wiseLYNX ?:

Mich

Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering problem (was: Cycle route improvements)

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 6 Feb 2008, at 17:17, Ben Laenen wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 February 2008, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
>> OK, good.
>> Probably something wrong with your styles. Post your *.xml file and
>> I'll have a look.
>
> It's the original one from svn, but if you want to have a look... I
> can't see anything wrong with it, but I'll try some older ones once.

Ben,

Are you using template ? You should have replaced all occurrences of   
%params% with real things
Also, make sure you have postgis.input installed

HTH
Artem
>
> Greetings
> Ben


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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering problem (was: Cycle route improvements)

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 6 Feb 2008, at 17:08, Ben Laenen wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 February 2008, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
>> Ben,
>>
>> First thing to check if you have parks,woods etc in postgresql.
>>
>> try:
>>
>> select count(1) from planet_osm_polygons where "natural" = 'wood' ;
>>
>> or similar
>
> It all looks well. There are hundreds of them in the database (and I
> also made sure the ones I want to see rendered are in there). So it
> should be something else...

OK, good.
Probably something wrong with your styles. Post your *.xml file and  
I'll have a look.
>
> Ben
Artem


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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering problem (was: Cycle route improvements)

[Ben Laenen]

On Wednesday 06 February 2008, Artem Pavlenko wrote:
> Ben,
>
> First thing to check if you have parks,woods etc in postgresql.
>
> try:
>
> select count(1) from planet_osm_polygons where "natural" = 'wood' ;
>
> or similar

It all looks well. There are hundreds of them in the database (and I 
also made sure the ones I want to see rendered are in there). So it 
should be something else...

Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering problem (was: Cycle route improvements)

[Artem Pavlenko]

On 6 Feb 2008, at 16:23, Ben Laenen wrote:

> On Wednesday 06 February 2008, Chris Jones wrote:
>> For mapnik see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Mapnik
>>
>> For sections of the planet see
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Planet.osm#Extracts
>
> Thanks, it was also possible by just downloading an area with JOSM.
>
> Anyway, my Mapnik installation refuses to render things like parks,
> cemeteries, woods, landuse areas etc. i.e. no polygons show up, except
> for water which is rendered nicely like everything else on the map.
> Does anyone know what could be the problem? I have absolutely no idea
> what could be wrong, and I'm just using the osm-template.xml file from
> svn...

Ben,

First thing to check if you have parks,woods etc in postgresql.

try:

select count(1) from planet_osm_polygons where "natural" = 'wood' ;

or similar
>
> Greetings
> Ben
Artem
>
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[OSM-talk] Mapnik rendering problem (was: Cycle route improvements)

[Ben Laenen]

On Wednesday 06 February 2008, Chris Jones wrote:
> For mapnik see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Mapnik
>
> For sections of the planet see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Planet.osm#Extracts

Thanks, it was also possible by just downloading an area with JOSM.

Anyway, my Mapnik installation refuses to render things like parks, 
cemeteries, woods, landuse areas etc. i.e. no polygons show up, except 
for water which is rendered nicely like everything else on the map. 
Does anyone know what could be the problem? I have absolutely no idea 
what could be wrong, and I'm just using the osm-template.xml file from 
svn...

Greetings
Ben

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Yahoo satellite imagery in Merkaartor

[Tom Hughes]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> bvh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> As some may know : merkaartor is an offline editor for OSM, similar
>> in purpose and intent as JOSM.
>>
>> Chris Browet has been working on a patch to add a Yahoo layer to
>> merkaartor and has made great progress lately. So I am considering
>> including his work into the OSM subversion repository and include
>> it in the next release of merkaartor.
>>
>> The wiki is not really clear on offline editors using Yahoo
>> imagery (it states that it is 'likely permitted').
>
> As I understand the situation it is fine, so long as you use one
> of the two Yahoo provided APIs to access it - either the javascript
> one or the flash one.

The code that has just been checked in to add Y! map support
to Merkaartor looks like it is not using the Y! API to access
the maps - it is building tile URLs directly.

As I understand it Yahoo have explicitly said that they don't
want us doing that and that we should only use one of the two
APIs that I mentioned.

Tom

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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Old or dialectal names

[wiseLYNX]

Michael Collinson wrote:
> Enrico,
> 
> Welcome!  I've ancestors from not far north of 
> Torino so I glad to see mapping activity there.

fine to hear, you know where they were from? I'm trying to involve some
friends and collegues of mine in the project, so it may be possible
other areas in Piemonte will be mapped.

> These tags may be what you need:
> 
> old_name - Old name
> loc_name - Local name
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features - see Name section
> 
> I don't they are yet rendered out on the 
> www.openstreetmap.org views, but at least the 
> information will be captured for feature use.
> 
> Also, purely speculatively, I wonder if the 
> dialect is supported as an ISO 3-letter code?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-3_codes

a quick serach resulted in this:

http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=pms


> We've been using 2-letter codes, so the following might be possible:
> 
> name:it=Via Garibaldi
> name:xyz=Contrà ad mès

so if the format name:isocode is ok, I'll put old names that way.

thanks averybody for the fast and complete reply!

Enrico


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM cycle map radio interview

[Andy Allan]

On Feb 5, 2008 7:53 PM, Lambertus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Great indept interview, you explained everything thorough and clear and with
> a nice accent as well. Good job. BTW, how many ppl listen to that station?
> Any response from listeners?

Thanks. I found it hard trying to pitch it to an unknown audience,
especially with no visuals and trying to remember that they aren't all
geeks or IT people. As for the listeners - I don't know how many
people listen to it. It's only broadcast over a tiny area of London,
but I think there are vastly more people listening to the podcasts.
Certainly, the traffic to my website doubled yesterday and I've had a
few people from way outside of London contacting me about it today via
email.

> Lucky that you speak an language that almost everyone can understand. I did
> a short radio talk last week about OSM in a language which only about 400k
> people speak... Got an enthousiastic response (friends of my parents calling
> to say they heard it), but not many new volunteers afaik.

I think a big thing for 2008 is getting beyond the point where most
people in the OSM circles are volunteers for the project. In London
for instance we'd only need another five or six people interested in
cycle-mapping-based contributions and OSM will be completely useful
for tens of thousands of people. So I'm starting to lean towards
things like this radio interview being publicity for OSM *users*
rather than specifically seeking more contributors.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Old or dialectal names

[Michael Collinson]

Enrico,

Welcome!  I've ancestors from not far north of 
Torino so I glad to see mapping activity there.

These tags may be what you need:

old_name - Old name
loc_name - Local name

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features - see Name section

I don't they are yet rendered out on the 
www.openstreetmap.org views, but at least the 
information will be captured for feature use.

Also, purely speculatively, I wonder if the 
dialect is supported as an ISO 3-letter code?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-3_codes

We've been using 2-letter codes, so the following might be possible:

name:it=Via Garibaldi
name:xyz=Contrà ad mès

Mike
Stockholm

At 02:39 PM 2/6/2008, wiseLYNX wrote:
>Hi everybody,
>
>I'm new to th OSM project, but I'm getting quite involved, as Torino
>(Italy), where I live, is well covered with Yahoo aerials, and it's
>quite effortless to fill in the neighborhoods of my home (which of
>course I know very well, and I don't need to go around GPSing).
>
>I have a question: I'm planning, as soon I'll be able, to insert maps
>for a little town in the countryside, but I already know I'll have a
>little issue. The place has streets and places called with "new" names,
>given (I suppose) during the last century, but there are also (and
>mainly) known with their older names. As an example, the streen were now
>called Via Garibaldi, was called "Contrà ad mès" (middleway street, in
>the local dialect). The local administration is trying to recover these
>old names, and on plaques with street names are now showing both the new
>and the old ones.
>
>This issue anyway applies also in a number of other cases, where a place
>is nown with an official but less used name, and an unofficial better
>known one.
>
>Is there a way to add this kind of information in OSM? I believe simply
>putting the "other" name in parenthesis isn't the best solution..
>
>thanks,
>
>Enrico


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Re: [OSM-talk] Old or dialectal names

[Dave Stubbs]

On Feb 6, 2008 1:39 PM, wiseLYNX <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I'm new to th OSM project, but I'm getting quite involved, as Torino
> (Italy), where I live, is well covered with Yahoo aerials, and it's
> quite effortless to fill in the neighborhoods of my home (which of
> course I know very well, and I don't need to go around GPSing).
>
> I have a question: I'm planning, as soon I'll be able, to insert maps
> for a little town in the countryside, but I already know I'll have a
> little issue. The place has streets and places called with "new" names,
> given (I suppose) during the last century, but there are also (and
> mainly) known with their older names. As an example, the streen were now
> called Via Garibaldi, was called "Contrà ad mès" (middleway street, in
> the local dialect). The local administration is trying to recover these
> old names, and on plaques with street names are now showing both the new
> and the old ones.
>
> This issue anyway applies also in a number of other cases, where a place
> is nown with an official but less used name, and an unofficial better
> known one.
>
> Is there a way to add this kind of information in OSM? I believe simply
> putting the "other" name in parenthesis isn't the best solution..

If you look at the bottom end of Map Features on the wiki you can see
a variety of tags for names which might be useful. In particular
old_name and loc_name may be what you want.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_Features#Name


Dave
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[OSM-talk] Old or dialectal names

[wiseLYNX]

Hi everybody,

I'm new to th OSM project, but I'm getting quite involved, as Torino
(Italy), where I live, is well covered with Yahoo aerials, and it's
quite effortless to fill in the neighborhoods of my home (which of
course I know very well, and I don't need to go around GPSing).

I have a question: I'm planning, as soon I'll be able, to insert maps
for a little town in the countryside, but I already know I'll have a
little issue. The place has streets and places called with "new" names,
given (I suppose) during the last century, but there are also (and
mainly) known with their older names. As an example, the streen were now
called Via Garibaldi, was called "Contrà ad mès" (middleway street, in
the local dialect). The local administration is trying to recover these
old names, and on plaques with street names are now showing both the new
and the old ones.

This issue anyway applies also in a number of other cases, where a place
is nown with an official but less used name, and an unofficial better
known one.

Is there a way to add this kind of information in OSM? I believe simply
putting the "other" name in parenthesis isn't the best solution..

thanks,

Enrico

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Progressing OSM to a new dataLicence regime

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> Say a company, Foo Inc, builds a business on providing services  
> relating
> to OSM data, which includes contributing to the database. Some US
> company, Bar Corp, takes OSM data and breaks the contract - e.g. by
> adding their own information but keeping it proprietary.

This is an interesting idea.

I am not quite sure whether the "contract" would be between OSM and  
the user, or between the contributor and the user.

If the contract is between OSM and the user, then Foo cannot sue Bar  
for breach of contract because they have no contract. (Can my  
business sue your business because you use a pirated copy of  
Microsoft Windows and thus have an unfair advantage? Unsure but don't  
think so.)

If the contract is between Foo and Bar, and Bar is using data  
contributed by Foo, then in what way would Bar have an unfair  
advantage over Foo regarding the data (since Foo, having contributed  
the data, can do anything they want with the data anyway)?

Bye
Frederik
>

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00.09' E008°23.33'



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Progressing OSM to a new dataLicence regime

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> Well my position is the enlightened one:

Bad choice of words, I meant to say the honest one. I thing  
"enlightened" has too much of a divine component which I don't want  
to claim ;-)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Progressing OSM to a new dataLicence regime

[bvh]

On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 12:59:46PM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > I don't get it : you go on about how license such and such is
> > possibly unenforceable and then you propose moral guidelines
> > that are 100% guaranteed not enforceable. I fail to see progress.
> Well my position is the enlightened one: We can't enforce anything,  
> so let's be honest, admit that we cannot enforce anything, and tell  
> people what we would like to do them, knowing full well that if  
> anyone does not comply, well, he doesn't.

For one, I am not 100% convinced that we cannot enforce some
sort of viral license. I am 100% convinved however that we cannot
enforce your moral guidelines.

> Pushing a viral license in full knowledge that it is unlikely to work  
> against those who chose to neglect it, is lying to the community:  
> Giving the community the illusion of legal power, and even a hunch of  
> a promise that you will go after the bad guys.

I don't think there is an expectation in the community that OSM
will try to sue. I think there is more an expectation that if
someone does something 'bad' that we will try to push our
point of view to slashdot and other sympathetic media. And that
will work much better if there is a license other than PD.

> What you say is right; a license, even if not enforceable, does  
> express certain values or wishes. But in my eyes this is just  
> succumbing to wishful thinking ("I might sue them..."). Yeah you  
> might. But for this infinitesimally small chance of some time perhaps  
> taking someone to court, you weigh down your contribution with a  
> license that creates tons of questions, is unfair (because it has  
> much greater legal power in Europe than elsewhere), and wastes  
> everbody's time in dealing with it.

I think you focus too much on court and discount the other
ways of trying people to 'do the right thing'.

> Someone brought up 80n's example of how in [EMAIL PROTECTED], we actually  
> use a big PNG image with one pixel for each Level-12 tile as a  
> database, telling us which tiles are land tiles and which are sea  
> tiles. So there's a database for you; at the same time, we say that  
> images created from OSM data (mashups etc) are not databases in the  
> sense of the license. This is one of, I'm sure, many points that will  
> never be solved clearly and properly.

I am not a lawyer, but I am meeting some of them in my work.
And when I apply the yardstick of my profession (software engineer)
nearly nothing is clearly and properly solved in legal matters.
(I am sure a mathematician will say the same thing about my work)
Somehow I have the feeling you are applying the engineering measure
of 'clearly and properly solved' to the legal field.

My point is that interpretation within a given legal framework
is exactly how it is supposed to work. That is exactly why there
is so much action before things move to court. And the thing is :
even given the knowledge that everything you'll put on paper
is flawed in some way or another, it is still in your best interest 
to state your wish and intent as much as possible within the
provided legal framework.

And from what I know only 3 options are thus far mentioned that
have some basis in some law : copyright, database rights or contracts.

Me personally I do think contracts are not the right representation
for OSM because that would suggest a license towards specific
users instead of the public at large. Copyright is also not the
right answer because a large part of our work is the recording
of reality and hence by definition not creative. That leaves us with
database rights which in my opinion have all the right properties.

cu bart

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Progressing OSM to a new dataLicence regime

[rob]

Quoting Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Well my position is the enlightened one: We can't enforce anything,

We don't know precisely what can and cannot be enforced.

This is why the current debate within OSM and with other organizations  
is so important, to ensure that OSM has a reasonably firm basis for  
whatever form the licence (or lack thereof) takes.

> Pushing a viral license in full knowledge that it is unlikely to  
> work  against those who chose to neglect it, is lying to the community

Fortunately nobody is doing this or is likely to do it.

If copyleft doesn't work then it obviously shouldn't be used and CC0  
or similar is the way to go. But I don't think we're at that point yet.

It may well also be the case that the various layers of OSM (the GPS  
tracks, ways, and rendered maps) may have different statuses in the  
eyes of the law.

- Rob.



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] Progressing OSM to a new dataLicence regime

[Jordan S Hatcher]

On 6 Feb 2008, at 12:19, Gervase Markham wrote:

>
>> I think it's important to point out that commercial companies
>> protecting their data do not allow their users to share it, and so
>> most of their protection is based around this. By allowing others to
>> share the work freely, you lose many of these avenues of protection
>> (like technical protection measures, for example).
>
> This seems like equivocation on the word "protection". Your first use
> means "restricting copying", and so your first clause is a tautology.
> The last use means something wider.
>
> OSM is looking for "protection" in the sense of "legally-enforceable
> restrictions". Commercial mapping companies make "no  
> redistribution" one
> of their restrictions, but we don't. However, I don't see why that
> should reduce the force of the legal mechanisms they and we can use to
> enforce our restrictions.

Thanks for the comment.

You pointed out my use of the word protection [1], which may have  
been unclear on what I was referring. Protection could be by legal  
tools or by using other methods (such as the ones I mentioned).

My point is that there are other tools beyond contract (legal and  
otherwise) based around not allowing further re-distribution.

-- one cannot rely on passwords and other controls to restrict access  
to data (protecting it with a physical lock) and give anyone the  
password, as it defeats the purpose of having a password in the first  
place. A copyleft data licence can't use passwords to protect its  
data. This is a non-legal protection not available for open data.
-- take trade secret for example. You cannot give everyone  
information and then claim it is a secret. A commercial company could  
have data protected by contract that they prohibit further  
distribution and obligate the user to secrecy for the data. This is a  
legal protection not available for open data.

You also wrote:

> OSM is looking for "protection" in the sense of "legally-enforceable
> restrictions".

I would think that OSM would be looking at all ways of protecting  
their content in the way they choose best -- be it legal, technical,  
or otherwise.

Thanks!

~Jordan


Mr. Jordan S Hatcher, JD, LLM

jordan at opencontentlawyer dot com
OC Blog: http://opencontentlawyer.com
IP/IT Blog: http://twitchgamer.net

Open Data Commons


Usage of Creative Commons by cultural heritage organisations
http://www.eduserv.org.uk/foundation/studies/cc2007


[1]
protection |prəˈtek sh ən|
noun
the action of protecting someone or something, or the state of being  
protected




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Re: [OSM-talk] Crazy ways after editing - A real argument for changeset data

[Andy Robinson (blackadder)]

David,

I took a look at this area a little more closely with JOSM and I can see its
not straight forwards to correct because it's not just one way that got
moved but blocks of connected ways from what I can tell. Unfortunately they
now lie over the top of other exiting ways so its difficult to select the
ones effected so that they can be simply slid back. I think the only way to
sort it will be to evaluate the history data for the nodes in the whole
area. From this you can see which nodes (and hence ways) were moved at
around the same time instance. 

For instance if I look at two connected ways that are displaced (6331826 and
6397132) and look at the node history for some of their nodes  I can see
that their position was last moved at a timestamp around
"2008-02-04T04:32:24+00:00" they vary by some minutes in some cases so
perhaps it took a while for all the changes to update to the database.
Anyway, if a bit more checking was done it should be possible to automate a
rollback for all the affected data. Would need someone perhaps to help with
scripting that so perhaps David Hansen can assist with ideas.

Another option might be to use last week's planet dump and do a compare and
revert between the state last week and the state now. This will though mean
you loose data from the time of planet last week to Feb 04 if a delete and
re-insert is done.

Lets hope the folks that are looking at change set info via the API can find
us a long term solution to this problem as I'm sure its going to happen
again soon.

Hope this helps  move things along for you.

Cheers

Andy

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk-
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SteveC
>Sent: 06 February 2008 11:11 AM
>To: David Muir Sharnoff
>Cc: OSM-Talk Openstreetmap
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Crazy ways after editing
>
>David,
>
>There is also a talk-us list which may be of help in future.
>
>On 5 Feb 2008, at 18:46, David Muir Sharnoff wrote:
>
>> The area of Oakland, California I've been editing
>> (with Potlatch) suddenly changed in a very bad way.
>>
>> There are a whole bunch of ways (at least 50,
>> perhaps a lot more) that have had one or more
>> of their points move several miles south-east.
>>
>> A major street, Park Ave, seems to have
>> disappeared entirely.   Or, at least, I can't find
>> it any more.
>>
>> Edit at this location to see:
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.81886&lon=-
>122.21229&zoom=16&layers=B0FT
>>
>> Some example ways that are messed up:
>> 6403309, Saint James Dr.
>> 6380125, Somerset Rd
>> 6365079, Pershing Dr
>> 6391271, Indian Rd
>> 6381464, Hampton Rd
>> 6374990, Excelsior Ave
>> 6359191, E 33rd St
>> 6390297, Everett Ave
>>
>> Does anyone have any idea what happened
>> or how to fix it?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Dave
>>
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>>
>
>have fun,
>
>SteveC | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.asklater.com/steve/
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Place of worship: wayside crosses

[Karl Eichwalder]

> Yes, we also have them, but it's not the same. Wayside crosses seem to be
> a speciality in southern de, at and Alsace.

You also find them in the Eichsfeld (Duderstadt/Heiligenstadt) and, maybe,
around Hildesheim (that's south of Hanover).  Both are regions with
a high percentage of roman-catholic people.


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Progressing OSM to a new dataLicence regime

[SteveC]

On 6 Feb 2008, at 11:59, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Hi,
>
>> On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 11:52:24AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>>> Let us drop all this nonsense and concentrate on drawing up the  
>>> moral
>>> guidelines - saying what we consider ok and what not - instead of
>>> fantasizing about having legal powers to enforce anything.
>>
>> I don't get it : you go on about how license such and such is
>> possibly unenforceable and then you propose moral guidelines
>> that are 100% guaranteed not enforceable. I fail to see progress.
>
> Well my position is the enlightened one: We can't enforce anything,

Why do you think we can't enforce anything?

> Someone brought up 80n's example of how in [EMAIL PROTECTED], we actually
> use a big PNG image with one pixel for each Level-12 tile as a
> database, telling us which tiles are land tiles and which are sea
> tiles. So there's a database for you; at the same time, we say that
> images created from OSM data (mashups etc) are not databases in the
> sense of the license. This is one of, I'm sure, many points that will
> never be solved clearly and properly.

That's what we have case law for though?

have fun,

SteveC | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.asklater.com/steve/



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Re: [OSM-talk] Crazy ways after editing

[SteveC]

David,

There is also a talk-us list which may be of help in future.

On 5 Feb 2008, at 18:46, David Muir Sharnoff wrote:

> The area of Oakland, California I've been editing
> (with Potlatch) suddenly changed in a very bad way.
>
> There are a whole bunch of ways (at least 50,
> perhaps a lot more) that have had one or more
> of their points move several miles south-east.
>
> A major street, Park Ave, seems to have
> disappeared entirely.   Or, at least, I can't find
> it any more.
>
> Edit at this location to see:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.81886&lon=-122.21229&zoom=16&layers=B0FT
>
> Some example ways that are messed up:
> 6403309, Saint James Dr.
> 6380125, Somerset Rd
> 6365079, Pershing Dr
> 6391271, Indian Rd
> 6381464, Hampton Rd
> 6374990, Excelsior Ave
> 6359191, E 33rd St
> 6390297, Everett Ave
>
> Does anyone have any idea what happened
> or how to fix it?
>
> Thanks,
> -Dave
>
> ___
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>

have fun,

SteveC | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.asklater.com/steve/



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Progressing OSM to a new dataLicence regime

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

I might be getting something wrong here, but Jordan's posting, to  
me, is the most convincing statement *against* the kind of license  
that the foundation has endorsed. It is a bit difficult for me to  
distinguish between the parts of the message where he says what HE  
thinks and where he says what the SC (science commons) people think,  
but that makes no difference to the weight of the arguments:

> The DbL/FIL is a "leaky ship" in that:

[...]

> -- Outside of Europe, you are likely to rely on contract and other  
> law (possibly unfair competition claims). Contract claims are one-to-
> one (in personam) and not one-against-everyone (in rem). This means
> that it is harder to enforce your claims against people who received
> the (uncopyrightable) data from someone who breached the contract.

[...] (paraphrasing SC here:)

> -- What copyright does and doesn't protect in a database is really  
> tricky, even for IP experts, and so making the public try to parse
> all the minute legal questions is overly burdensome and expensive
> both in money (lawyer fees), time (spent wondering about the rights),
> and lost opportunity (not using the database because of all the  
> hassle)

> -- Database rights legislation is bad policy and bad law and  
> shouldn't be used. See the European Commission's own review:

Let me add some exclamation marks here:

* BAD LAW
* SHOULD NOT BE USED.
* EUROPEAN COMMISSION DISCUSSING TO REPEAL IT

(and we are discussing to base our license on it?)

> -- Database rights are limited to Europe and so do not have  
> worldwide  
> applicability

This means that anyone in the US can kick our ass. It has been argued  
that some data "donations" like MASSGIS or AND would not have taken  
place if we had been PD because these people want attribution or have  
reservations about possible competitors using their data; but how  
will these people react if we choose a license that is completely  
toothless in a jurisdiction like the US? What will they say wen a  
seasoned IP lawyer like Jordan tells them: "Well you can give your  
data to OSM but you must know that there's basically nothing they can  
do if a US company breaches the license/contract"?

> --Contract creates a barrier of opportunity and transaction costs
> similar to copyright [above]. In addition, it is harder to enforce
> against third parties after breach and so offers only limited
> protection.

And I may add my pet issue that if someone breaches contract you are  
likely to be able to sue them for damages at most, which amount to  
the money you could have earned if the contract had not been  
breached, which is zero in our case.

> There has been some discussion of commercial data providers on this
> list.  I'm no expert in their practices, but they rely on:

And he goes on to completely destroy the OSMF position (without  
explicitly referring to it) that Richard Fairhurst recently  
summarized as "OSMF disagrees significantly with this assessment of a  
contractual approach. Commercial geodata (TeleAtlas, Navteq etc.) is  
protected this way.", arguing that we're in a very different  
situation from commercial providers.

And finally:

> The SC point is that all this sort of stuff can be a real pain, and
> isn't what you are really doing is wanting to create and manipulate
> factual data? Why spend all the time on this when the innovation
> happens in what you can do with the data, and not with trying to
> protect the data in the first place.

After reading this, I am more convinced than ever that the Open Data  
Commons DbL/FIL can NOT be the way forward for us. This is all just  
creating an enormous cloud of legalese, creating more uncertainties,  
and putting European users at a huge disadvantage compared to users  
in other jurisdictions.

How on earth did the Foundation come to recommend ODC DbL/FIL when  
even one of its two inventors has such an enormous list of caveats?

Everything that is being said about viral licenses and forcing users  
to do this and that and making sure that something else does not  
happen is just a pipe dream, and the whole license debate a huge  
waste of time. Factual data is always free, and the best we will ever  
be able to achieve is to set MORAL guidelines - we would like our  
users to do this and that, with a possible enforceable component in a  
small number of jurisdictions and for the time being.

Let us drop all this nonsense and concentrate on drawing up the moral  
guidelines - saying what we consider ok and what not - instead of  
fantasizing about having legal powers to enforce anything.

CC0 now!

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00.09' E008°23.33'



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[OSM-talk] Virtual highway?

[Rob Reid]

I just spotted a way from the recent AND India import that I'm not quite 
sure what to do with, its only 4 nodes long but covers over 1400 km :
I suspect it could be a ferry route as another one goes from the same 
point of origin and it connects two islands but its tagged as 
highway=virtual and  follows a direct line passing over land as well so 
could be an air route as well I guess?
Details are here : http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/22826679/full

cheers

rcr

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Re: [OSM-talk] Place of worship: wayside crosses

[Christoph Eckert]

Hi,

> There was some discussion about this on the list last month, (in a
> thread that started by talking about the Icon tag), and there is now a
> proposed tag as wayside_cross (there is also wayside_shrine).
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/wayside_cross

ah, thanks for the pointer (and sorry I missed it).

> Wayside crosses are not common in English speaking areas. Well, people
> put small white crosses up were people died in car accidents, but
> that's not the same thing.

Yes, we also have them, but it's not the same. Wayside crosses seem to be a 
speciality in southern de, at and Alsace.

Cheers,

ce


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[OSM-talk] FW: Tiger Tiger OSM

[Steve Chilton]

Could someone who is closer to the Tiger work please respond in detail
to this request from Mapperz for an update on the Tiger import?

Is it complete? What are the maintenance plans? What outreach plans are
there, etc?

He runs a well-read blog (as far as I can tell) at:
http://mapperz.blogspot.com/ and the publicity would be good for the
project. [Entry on London's LEZ today]

I am happy to feed him info on the India data import and workshops (and
link to Mikel) later this month and see if we can't get some more
coverage there too.

 

Cheers

STEVE

Steve Chilton, Learning Support Fellow
Learning and Technical Support Unit Manager
School of Health and Social Sciences
Middlesex University
phone/fax: 020 8411 5355
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.mdx.ac.uk/schools/hssc/staff/profiles/technical/chiltons.asp

Chair of the Society of Cartographers: http://www.soc.org.uk/

SoC conference 2008:
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/cartographers08/ 

  _  

From: Mapperz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 06 February 2008 09:06
To: Steve Chilton
Subject: Tiger Tiger OSM

 

Hi Steve, I am noticing huge amounts of Tiger data in OSM - USA
http://www.openstreetmap.org/
Have i missed a blog post, not much on it i can find.
How complete is the conversion? looks like most of it to me (looking in
random places)
congratulations hopefully this will enlarge the user base 

think a blog post on the Mapperz site is deserved. 'Tiger, Tiger
Everywhere - Open Street Map'

Suggestion: on the OSM site can you have a map with the coverage area -
it's getting harder to work out which areas in the world are covered and
which are not (it's good thing really).

I wasn't expecting this until August 2008 (from the stats on conversion
way back)

The whole OSM is really starting to make real impact!

Mapperz





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[OSM-talk] Germany

[SteveC]

If you haven't looked at Germany for a while, prepare to be amazed

Potsdamer Platz

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.50882&lon=13.37594&zoom=16&layers=B0FT

NW Berlin

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.57025&lon=13.31636&zoom=15&layers=B0FT

Karlsruhe

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.0094&lon=8.4109&zoom=13&layers=B0FT

Munich (also img of the week)

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.137&lon=11.5644&zoom=13&layers=B0FT

have fun,

SteveC | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.asklater.com/steve/



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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycle route improvements

[Chris Jones]

Ben Laenen wrote:
> I'd like to experiment with Mapnik a bit to test out my ideas. Since I 
> never tried to do anything like that: is it possible to use it without 
> needing to download the entire planet file? I don't really feel like 
> downloading 3.6GB while I just need a tiny bit near my home town... And 
> I can't find any info about that on the wiki.
>   
For mapnik see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Mapnik

For sections of the planet see 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Planet.osm#Extracts

--
Chris Jones, SUCS Admin
http://sucs.org

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