Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
On Jul 29, 2008, at 00:40, Karl Newman wrote: > Don't overestimate the usage of the current data scheme, though. The > Germans are prolific mappers, but I would be surprised if there are > even a few thousand addresses entered in the current format, if that. According to tagwatch, around 2 in Europe, of which 7200 in Germany. http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Europe/En/top_undocumented_keys.html http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/En/top_undocumented_keys.html I wonder where the other >1 are? Cheers Robert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] request for osm-ph mailing list
Hi, Where do I request for a creation of OSM Philippines mailing list? cheers, maning -- |-|--| | __.-._ |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great." -Yoda | | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden| | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ | | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com| | _)_/LI |-|--| ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Split into "map" and "data" projects, was: Re: Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of thecurrent maps
Someone wrote: > let's keep > the focus on filling up the database > I'll give 100% support to the 20%, the 80% should wait some more or > better still try to do some mapping, somewhere, anywhere! That sums it up rather nicely. OSM is only about collecting data, people that are interested in using the data are not really welcome very much. So I propose to start a new project, that is about using OSM data only. Transfer the current renderers and maps to the new project, and maybe it would be possible there to et up a server farm, so people interested in different rendering styles can concentrate on the rendering styles and not on the problem of serving them. Anyone interested? That new project would first need people that have time to organize it (I really don't have), and people to raise or provide funding. cu Henry ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap - how to get vector data
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 07:07:11PM +0200, Igor Brejc wrote: > The problem is fetching the data - the only viable option I see is using > OSMXAPI, but its server is overwhelmed and will limit the download size > in the future (from what I read on this list). Using planet dumps seems > to me a bit too unfriendly from the end-user perspective - they would > have to download quite a large quantity of data. > > I have the similar problem with providing map data to users of Kosmos. > Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. OSMXAPI is only limited by the number of servers we can run it on. If people donate a server (requirements weren't that bad), there could be more OSMXAPI instances running. spaetz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] request for osm-ph mailing list
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> maning sambale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Where do I request for a creation of OSM Philippines mailing list? I can sort it out. Are you going to be the list owner? Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone
Richard Fairhurst wrote: >Sent: 29 July 2008 12:30 AM >To: Talk Openstreetmap >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone > >Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > >> Steve, you and everyone else whose worked hard on the cartography >> aspects of >> the Mapnik layer deserve a big pat on the back. But your note clearly >> demonstrates that we really should not have the Mapnik stylesheet >> maintained >> and managed by one or two people. > >Well, there was a discussion on IRC today among some of the [EMAIL PROTECTED] >chaps >along the lines of "what we really need is a benevolent dictator, like >the Mapnik stylesheet has". I've got a lot of sympathy with that - >most of the reason the Mapnik layer looks so cool is because it's >driven by one person with a clear vision and genuine cartographic >skill, rather than "ooh, I want to see pound shops on the map, let me >add my nice MS Paint icon". > >(For the avoidance of doubt I'm not accusing [EMAIL PROTECTED] of this, but >I've >seen enough committee-designed maps that do look like an utter >bollocks.) > >> I'm really wondering if it wouldn't be a good time to get a separate >> project >> kicked off that's separate from OSM core. One that is specifically >> aimed at >> developing methods of layering and filtering the OSM data to produce >> customisable maps. It's clear there are loads of people that want to >> put >> their oar in on it and maybe taking it out of a core OSM function >> might free >> up ideas and development. Obviously new and cool ideas can get >> incorporated >> back at OSM render central but at least having cartography development >> outside of central control would stir up the pot and take some of >> the heat >> out of the issue within OSM itself. >> >> I assume the big problem doing this is getting suitable bandwidth >> for a tile >> server? > >Amazon EC2/S3. > >With a readymade image containing an OSM rendering toolchain - Mapnik, >osm2pgsql and TileCache - plus some instructions on the wiki, we'd >have a "roll your own cartography kit". A WYSIWYG stylesheet editor >would be the icing on the cake but not necessary at the start. I am >way out of my depth here technically, but wouldn't that be so, so cool? > +1, very cool and something I'd try my hand at. So how might we kick something off, even if it's a bit too challenging for some of us, me included? Suggestions welcome. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone
Hi Steve, On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:47:49 +0100, Steve Chilton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just noticed that this weekend it is exactly a year since I submitted my > first mapnik style patch. As someone who has run off with the OSM stylesheet and spent a lot of time making a slightly different version* I'd like to say a very big thank you for all your hard work! Especially for putting up with those of us (myself included) who periodically whinge about it ;-) Kind regards, Tom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Split into "map" and "data" projects
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from host-82-44-126-103.static.telewest.net [82.44.126.103] with HTTP/1.1 (POST); Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:21:02 +0100 User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 09:17:47 +0200, Henry Loenwind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That sums it up rather nicely. OSM is only about collecting data, people > that are interested in using the data are not really welcome very much. > > So I propose to start a new project, that is about using OSM data only. > Transfer the current renderers and maps to the new project, and maybe it > would be possible there to et up a server farm, so people interested in > different rendering styles can concentrate on the rendering styles and > not on the problem of serving them. > > Anyone interested? That new project would first need people that have > time to organize it (I really don't have), and people to raise or > provide funding. What a lot of effort! Why bother? I don't understand why we can't just establish a few wiki pages and a new mailing list for people interested in end-uses of data. Make a few clear splits in wikis, lists, the front page etc. for people interested in gathering and using data. There's definitely a need for more collaboration and code-sharing on the OpenLayers/stylesheet front, it's all a bit of a confusing mess at the moment. I'd be happy to get stuck into both discussions, having mapped large chunks of Reading, St Albans, Peckham and Sutton... and having set-up a map based on OSM data (http://map.oneplanetsutton.org). Kind regards, Tom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Split into "map" and "data" projects
On 29/07/2008 09:21, Tom Chance wrote: > What a lot of effort! Why bother? I agree. In fact more than that, I think it would be damaging. For most people, the idea of "abstract" mapping data is a hard concept to grasp. The map renderings (in practice Mapnik, as I doubt most non-participants ever touch the layers menu) make the project concrete. Without this, I think OSM becomes largely invisible. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone
Hi, > Well, there was a discussion on IRC today among some of the [EMAIL PROTECTED] > chaps > along the lines of "what we really need is a benevolent dictator, like > the Mapnik stylesheet has". Strange [EMAIL PROTECTED] chaps they must have been, since *not* having a benevolent dictator is one of the key differentiation factors between [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Mapnik (the other being the - usually - lower turnaround times in [EMAIL PROTECTED] but the Mapnik camp is in the process of fixing that I believe). [EMAIL PROTECTED] is our map offering for mappers, Mapnik is our map offering for the rest of the world. This means that [EMAIL PROTECTED] will always tend to look less pretty but be closer to the data. But if you start mapping lampposts in your city and you don't have an EC2 server at hand, [EMAIL PROTECTED] is your chance to put them on a slippy map and show them to others - which has served the project well IMHO. So if you were to set up a style commission for [EMAIL PROTECTED], it would lose one of its main reasons for existing. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of thecurrent maps
On Tuesday 29 July 2008 00:15:03 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: > Inge Wallin wrote: > >Sent: 28 July 2008 10:45 AM > >To: talk@openstreetmap.org > >Subject: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of > >thecurrent maps > > > >This is a mail that I have been wanting to send for some time, but wanted > >to > >think a little more about the subject before I actually did. > > > >The topic is how the maps of OpenStreetMap are actually used by ordinary > >users. I know that the data of OSM is supposed to be used in new exciting > >ways like the cycle maps, but the majority of the users are just going to > >use > >what the programmers have made available to them. > > > >So the question then becomes, is the current renderings good? For which > >purposes? > > > >Before we can discuss how good the maps are, we have to describe the > >intended > >use cases. I will start with my own here, and hope that you will fill in > >your > >own ways of using maps in general and OSM in particular. > > > >I recently bought a cheap navigator, but before that I often used a > >commercial > >Swedish map services to navigate to places when I went there for my work. > >I'd > >print out the map on paper on a low zoom level, showing where I would go > > on large roads. Then I'd print out maps using higher and higher zoom > > levels closer and closer to my goal so that I can see which intermediate > > and smaller > >roads that I'd have to take to reach my goal. > > > >So, would OSM work for that usecase? No, I don't think so. Here is why: > > > > * Names! There are far too few names on the map, especially on low zoom > >levels. It's difficult to get a feeling for where you are and orient > >yourself > >on the map if you cannot find names on the map. The commercial maps show > >lots > >and lots of names, and that is a good thing. We should make names appear > > on the maps earlier. > > > >* Distinctions between roads. In opposition to the case for names, there > >are > >too many roads on the large scale maps. Here is what the current map > > looks like around my home city: > >http://www.openstreetmap.com/?lat=58.33&lon=15.408&zoom=10&layers=0B0FTF > >There is too little distinction between the motorway, the few primary > >highways and the secondary. I don't think the tertiary highways should > >even > >be on that map. Once they are all mapped they will provide a messy > >background > >making the important roads even more difficult to see. > > > >* Marking important roads. In the map above, you can also see that there > > is no > >marking of even the motorway (E4) or primary roads (in this case national > >roads 34 and 50). This is like names for cities, towns and villages: it > >makes > >it more difficult to follow where you are on the map. > > > >So, what are other use cases for OSM? Are the current OSM renderings good > >for > >those use cases? Do we need more different renderings for different use > >cases? > > > >I think that OSM has reached a state of maturity where we need to start > >discussing how the default renderings are used in real life. > > > > -Inge > > This is where we will find that there are two schools. > > The first point you make is about "users". Of our 50,000 registered "users" > only about 11% contribute data each month. Allowing for the fact that some > users will only contribute irregularly then perhaps at best we might say we > have an 20/80 split between those that are working for the project by > contributing data and those that are waiting eagerly to see and use the > fruits (or are waiting for a simple tool to add their street or POI and > nothing more). These numbers ignore those that just brose by and never take > an interest in the project itself. Well, when I was talking about "users", I actually meant those that only use the finished map. The 50,000 users that actually have accounts, I would instead call "contributors", even if it turns out that most of them are actually just empty accounts. That's probably to be expected, since it's the same in many of the large open source projects that I have been part of. > You ask the question about whether the current renderings are any good. > Personally it's not something I'm concerned about at this point in time, > I'm in the "collect data" school. As long as the rendering gives me enough > to check I mapped it the way I intended then it's done its job. Anything > more is somewhat icing on the cake. It seems that I have misunderstood a lot of things in the OSM project. However, I don't think that's alltogether my own fault. I have not ever seen the above thing seen clearly stated on the web site or in the wiki. I think that the central people need to make it much clearer what the goal of the project is, and what the purpose of various parts of it are. At least that the goal of the project is to provide data for other people to visualize, and that the current map is just for preview purposes. I think many technic
Re: [OSM-talk] request for osm-ph mailing list
Hi, OSM Philippine now has a mailinglist: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-ph For those interested in the discussion about OSM in the Philippines, please jinus there. Salamat! maning On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 3:10 PM, maning sambale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > Where do I request for a creation of OSM Philippines mailing list? > > cheers, > maning > -- > |-|--| > | __.-._ |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great." -Yoda | > | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden| > | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ | > | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com| > | _)_/LI > |-|--| > -- |-|--| | __.-._ |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great." -Yoda | | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden| | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ | | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com| | _)_/LI |-|--| ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Split into "map" and "data" projects, was: Re: Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of thecurrent maps
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Henry Loenwind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Someone wrote: >> let's keep >> the focus on filling up the database > >> I'll give 100% support to the 20%, the 80% should wait some more or >> better still try to do some mapping, somewhere, anywhere! > > That sums it up rather nicely. OSM is only about collecting data, people > that are interested in using the data are not really welcome very much. I wouldn't say that was true. Just that what few project resources there are should be concentrated on helping collection and distribution of the data rather than creating and running those end uses. > > So I propose to start a new project, that is about using OSM data only. > Transfer the current renderers and maps to the new project, and maybe it > would be possible there to et up a server farm, so people interested in > different rendering styles can concentrate on the rendering styles and > not on the problem of serving them. > > Anyone interested? That new project would first need people that have > time to organize it (I really don't have), and people to raise or > provide funding. > That's not so much a project as a service. And a fairly pricey one too. You'll need quite a lot of hardware at your disposal and a silly amount of bandwidth if you get remotely popular. Cyclemap bandwidth is in the order of hundreds of gigabytes already, and rising fast. You're talking on-demand which means you'll need access to a lot of CPUs. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone
Frederik Ramm wrote: > Strange [EMAIL PROTECTED] chaps they must have been, since *not* having a > benevolent > dictator is one of the key differentiation factors between [EMAIL PROTECTED] > and > Mapnik (the other being the - usually - lower turnaround times in [EMAIL > PROTECTED] > but the Mapnik camp is in the process of fixing that I believe). The thing that triggered those remarks were the few dropped colours in 64-colour quantized PNGs, and the observation that there is no definitive coordination to get at least the colours of all map elements synchronised, so it would actually show correctly in 64 colours -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone
Hi, >> Strange [EMAIL PROTECTED] chaps they must have been, since *not* having a >> benevolent >> dictator is one of the key differentiation factors between [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> and >> Mapnik (the other being the - usually - lower turnaround times in [EMAIL >> PROTECTED] >> but the Mapnik camp is in the process of fixing that I believe). > > The thing that triggered those remarks were the few dropped colours in > 64-colour quantized PNGs, and the observation that there is no > definitive coordination to get at least the colours of all map elements > synchronised, so it would actually show correctly in 64 colours I would give an arm and a leg for a proper graphic designer who does a full set of icons, and whom we could also call upon to create new ones in the future (or, but that's even less likely, who is able to write up a set of design guidelines that enables the semi-capable computer geek to create icons that at least superficially look as if they match the existing set). RichardF put it a bit acidly with his "MS Paint icon" remark but he's right in that the sheer number of stylisitcally absolutely non-matching icons is an eyesore. (Mapnik doesn't have any better icons, it just circumvents the problem elegantly by dropping 95% of POIs...) Having a proper set of icons would of course also fix the colour problem. But it would not need a benevolent dictator for this - if someone were to present a good set of icons, everybody would love him for it and they would be adopted in no time. It's just the absence of a good set of icons that is the problem. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:30:39AM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Strange [EMAIL PROTECTED] chaps they must have been, since *not* having a > benevolent > dictator is one of the key differentiation factors between [EMAIL PROTECTED] > and > Mapnik (the other being the - usually - lower turnaround times in [EMAIL > PROTECTED] > but the Mapnik camp is in the process of fixing that I believe). I was that strange chap. Hi Frederik :-) I was referring to the technical architecture for the most part. Not having someone who kind of oversees development makes it very tricky to get nice code. People contribute a little patch here a little patch there. Then, some woodpeck delivers a perl version that cannot be used as nobody fixes the island bugs :-P, etc... Also on the style front. osma tiles are about three times the size, and every person chooses random colors. We've seen the result when trying to reduce to 256 color palettes. I wasn't suggesting that one guy should be deciding the rules, but rather one guy coordinating the stuff (e,g, "this is how rules that make pub=disused work usually look like in osma") spaetz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Split into "map" and "data" projects, was: Re: Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of thecurrent maps
Henry Loenwind wrote: > That sums it up rather nicely. OSM is only about collecting data, people > that are interested in using the data are not really welcome very much. Nonono. And here's another difference between OSM and Wikipedia. OSM _is_ expressly here to encourage an ecosystem. It's here to collect the data and then get people to do funky things with it. We're not like Wikipedia where the uses are all self-contained, little subsections of wikipedia.org - WikiProject this and WikiProject that. Rather, we want people to go off and develop "creative, productive or unexpected ways", while continuing to interact with the OSM community - and that's exactly what's happening. So when you say: > So I propose to start a new project, that is about using OSM data only. ...feel free, just as dozens of other people are doing: but that needn't affect what's happening on the main site. If it's great it'll feed back into osm.org, just as was true for Mapnik and the cycle map (for example), and I'm sure will be true of, say, routing before too long. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Split into "map" and "data" projects, was: Re: Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of thecurrent maps
On 7/29/08, Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snip] OSM _is_ expressly here to encourage an ecosystem. It's here to > collect the data and then get people to do funky things with it. Speaking as a relatively new contributor to the project, I think this is absolutely fundamental. I don't think the "collect data" and "do funky things" schools should see themselves as in conflict. The best way to gather a very extensive dataset is to get more and more people to contribute. The best way to get people in is to create a good first impression, make it easy to contribute and reflect that contribution as quickly as possible. To me this means that we should be continually striving to improve the useability of the main map as suggested by Inge and supporting / incorporating new renderings and applications using OSM resources. Some people may have the ability and access to resources to set up alternative servers etc... but it should also be possible to do this within the main site, with the approval of the community. Oliver ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 07:12:54PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion > > Hi, > > > I added one suggestion to the "House Numbers" page. It's the eighth one. > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/House_numbers > > I find that very confusing. > > I'm using the "Karlsruhe Schema" > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/House_numbers > and if you want to start mapping house numbers withtout endless > discussions, I recommend you just do the same. The house numbers will > even show up on Osmarender z17, albeit in a sort of "debug" view which > will have to be improved. I once had a look at the Karlsruhe Schema and i found it "ugly" from a technical point of view. In my world one wants explicit links between two objects but the proposal simply draws points or polygons "next to" something which is not a explicit link. Adding a relation or an addr tag just makes it more confusing as the point you draw next to a street not explicitly pinpoints a location but the point of the minimum distance between 2 objects which may be anywhere ... I havent got any better way to do it but the proposal leaves a bad taste in my mouth ... Flo -- Florian Lohoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] +49-171-2280134 Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither - Benjamin Franklin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
Hi, > I once had a look at the Karlsruhe Schema and i found it "ugly" from a > technical point of view. In my world one wants explicit links between > two objects but the proposal simply draws points or polygons "next to" > something which is not a explicit link. That's correct. Many people seem to think that house numbers should somehow be tagged to ways. But our thinking was vey practical: You see a house. The house as a number. You tag it. The house is there. The house will not move, or be removed, should the road be demolished. In the real world, the house does exist independently of the road where it is located. Now if you think of our nodes not representing "house numbers" but "houses" (or more precisely, "house entrances"), then it might not look too ugly to you. As far as I am aware, nobody ever proposed to put, say, a pharmacy node into to the way representing the road the pharmacy is on. Think of a house number node as a placeholder for a house, and of a house number interpolation line as a placeholder for a string of houses. Both will be replaced by proper building outlines in due time. Tagging house numbers onto intersections or ways is just a lame workaround employed by many existing data sets because they can't model every single house. I have absolutely zero doubt that sooner or later, OSM *will* model every single house. At that time, every single house will simply be tagged with its address and that's it. The Karlsruhe Schema is intended as a workable interim solution until we reach that. With this schema, you can freely decide whether you want to map the full detail (every house mapped and tagged as individual building with address), or just put a node for each house, or just but nodes at the start and end of the road and connect them. If you opt for one of the coarser methods, someone else can easily refine them later. But I'm just explaining why we do what we're doing; I'm not trying to talk you into doing the same if you don't see the merit for yourself. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
On Tue, 2008-07-29 12:02:34 +0200, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tagging house numbers onto intersections or ways is just a lame > workaround employed by many existing data sets because they can't > model every single house. I have absolutely zero doubt that sooner or > later, OSM *will* model every single house. At that time, every > single house will simply be tagged with its address and that's it. To me, it looks like a difference between modeling every house (and adding some kind of address tag) and describing house numbers along a way for eg. routing purposes. There are other schemes, which could work out quite well I guess: 119 121 ..127 129 131 ... 137 139 ... x1 --> x2 ---> x3 ... 120 122 .. 128 130 132 ... 139 140 House numbers are complicated (in a city like Berlin, you'll probably find non-continuous house numbers, and they not always follow the even-odd-scheme, and the house number on the opposite side of the street may even be in a completely other range...) x1: housenumber_righthand=120-128/+2 housenumber_lefthand=119-127/+2 x2: housenumber_righthand=130-138/+2 housenumber_lefthand=129-137/+2 x3: housenumber_righthand=140-148/+2 housenumber_lefthand=139-147/+2 I only picked two tags and overloading them a bit, overloading them somewhat. It describes a starting house number and the common house number difference on the right/left side of the street. At least for Germany, that could describe house number distribution and the right/left information (which I find *quite* useful!) well enough even for the more exotic cases. However, it'll be somewhat of a pain optimizing a way. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Fortschritt bedeutet, einen Schritt so zu machen, the second : daß man den nächsten auch noch machen kann. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Bury St Edmunds mapping party
For those on this list not on talk-gb, just a brief mention that there will be a Bury St Edmunds (Suffolk, England) mapping party on Saturday 16 August. See: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/BuryStEdmunds/MappingParty2008-08 David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability ofthecurrent maps
Inge Wallin wrote: >Sent: 29 July 2008 9:30 AM >To: talk@openstreetmap.org >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability >ofthecurrent maps snip >Well, when I was talking about "users", I actually meant those that only >use >the finished map. The 50,000 users that actually have accounts, I would >instead call "contributors", even if it turns out that most of them are >actually just empty accounts. That's probably to be expected, since it's >the >same in many of the large open source projects that I have been part of. > As the project has grown some of the stuff has gotten a little buried. However the primary statement on the front of the wiki hasn't changed in eons and it states: "OpenStreetMap creates and provides free geographic data such as street maps to anyone who wants them. The project was started because most maps you think of as free actually have legal or technical restrictions on their use, holding back people from using them in creative, productive, or unexpected ways." Additionally the Foundation which of course acts as a facilitator to the project and custodian of the servers and the database for its contributors has its own aims which are nicely summed up in the Articles of Association of the company which states: "3.1 OpenStreetMap Foundation is dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free geospatial data and to providing geospatial data for anybody to use and share." These are really the guiding light statements at the present time. >For >> now I'll give 100% support to the 20%, the 80% should wait some more or >> better still try to do some mapping, somewhere, anywhere! > >Heh, here is where you are wrong. I am very much into programming. For one >thing, I am one of the maintainers of Marble (http://edu.kde.org/marble) >that >was featured at the SOTM conference. For another, I am seriously thinking >of >setting up a Swedish tile server with the look that I am used to from >Swedish >map books and some other infrastructure, like a forum and similar stuff. > Go for it, that's exactly the sort of thing that we want to see and encourage. The majority of cool things that we associate as OSM have arisen out of such efforts. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >Sent: 29 July 2008 11:33 AM >To: Frederik Ramm >Cc: talk >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion > >On Tue, 2008-07-29 12:02:34 +0200, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >wrote: >> Tagging house numbers onto intersections or ways is just a lame >> workaround employed by many existing data sets because they can't >> model every single house. I have absolutely zero doubt that sooner or >> later, OSM *will* model every single house. At that time, every >> single house will simply be tagged with its address and that's it. > >To me, it looks like a difference between modeling every house (and >adding some kind of address tag) and describing house numbers along a >way for eg. routing purposes. > >There are other schemes, which could work out quite well I guess: > > 119 121 ..127 129 131 ... 137 139 >... x1 --> x2 ---> x3 ... > 120 122 .. 128 130 132 ... 139 140 > >House numbers are complicated (in a city like Berlin, you'll probably >find non-continuous house numbers, and they not always follow the >even-odd-scheme, and the house number on the opposite side of the >street may even be in a completely other range...) > >x1: housenumber_righthand=120-128/+2 >housenumber_lefthand=119-127/+2 >x2: housenumber_righthand=130-138/+2 >housenumber_lefthand=129-137/+2 >x3: housenumber_righthand=140-148/+2 >housenumber_lefthand=139-147/+2 > >I only picked two tags and overloading them a bit, overloading them >somewhat. It describes a starting house number and the common house >number difference on the right/left side of the street. At least for >Germany, that could describe house number distribution and the >right/left information (which I find *quite* useful!) well enough even >for the more exotic cases. However, it'll be somewhat of a pain >optimizing a way. > The reason I don't like ideas like this is that the data you are adding to the way (or as Frederik pointed out possibly also the intersections) is not actually anything to do with the physical feature. There are no house numbers or other references on a road, only the name of the street and perhaps a road reference number. Accepted it's a nice easy way to make routing work more easily but that doesn't make it right for our dataset. If we keep and maintain the simple ideal that what we map is what we see then it keeps it all very simple. Routing algorithms may need to be more complex as a result but that doesn't give us an excuse to corrupt our data with misleading information. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] radio-beacons
I'm going to add all the italians VOR and NDB. They are radio beacons for aeronautical navigation. I think to use man_made=beacon tag adding some additional information: according to tagwatch [1] we have jsut 36 beacons in the planet and no one is a radio-beacon So, before to import the data i would like to have your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dbeacon Edoardo [1] http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Europe/En/tagstats_man_made_beacon.html -- Edoardo Marascalchi ICT Consultant Tel +39.347.008.00.02 website: http://www.edoardomarascalchi.it skype: My status ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why OpenStreetMap is not Wikipedia
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Frederik Ramm wrote: | Hi, | | the similarities between OSM and Wikipedia are many, and easily | spotted. In fact, we owe a lot of our success to Wikipedia as a "trail | blazer" - if I tell someone "we're like a Wikipedia for maps", that | saves me about 5 minutes explaining. | | However, there are also many conceptual differences between our | respective projects, and I would like to list a few of these that I've | been thinking about lately. | | I believe that some people are very quick to simply transfer "lessons | learned" from Wikipedia onto OSM, sometimes without properly taking into | account that while there are similarities, there are also lots of | differences. | | 1. One World | | 2. Commercially Valuable Product | | 3. Not an End Product I agree with this strongly, and believe it's worth mentioning that in all 3 aspects, MusicBrainz and possibly dmoz.org and similar projects are a lot closer to us than Wikipedia is. voxforge.org is also building something interesting which will have similar issues to us. Robert (Jamie) Munro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkiPANAACgkQz+aYVHdncI1UvwCgmp79bz+Q3WJlYXfs2Vxi+KXz nmQAoKRFHkIL6I44DXdPu6TZrrZaETUC =nWmh -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Tagwatch and osmxapi-links
Hi, in tagwatch, e.g. at http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Europe/En/tags.html I see entries that link to adresses like http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/*%5Bvalue=LIDL%5D That page takes quite a while to load but then returns with an empty document. Is that a timeout in the api or so? How do people manage to use tagwatch to find specific tagged entries (e.g. which need fixing)? Kind regards, Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagwatch and osmxapi-links
On Jul 29, 2008, at 14:25, Stefan Neufeind wrote: > in tagwatch, e.g. at > http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Europe/En/tags.html > I see entries that link to adresses like > http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/*%5Bvalue=LIDL%5D > > That page takes quite a while to load but then returns with an empty > document. Is that a timeout in the api or so? How do people manage to > use tagwatch to find specific tagged entries (e.g. which need fixing)? Those links point to XML documents that your browser may (Firefox) or may not (Safari) display. Best to "download link location" and save to whatever.osm. Would make sense to provide some kind of style information to make any browser that can handle XML display the data nicely? Cheers Robert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenMoonMap
SteveC schrieb: "This beacon system will use radio frequency, microwave, ultrasonic or visible light sources to transmit the relative positioning between any object and known active surface beacon reference points." Good luck using ultrasonic on the moon. Rock actually works quite well as medium. Not really useful for a handheld device, but anything well and rigidly connected to the moon surface could use this. -- Dirk-Lüder "Deelkar" Kreie Bremen - 53.0952°N 8.8652°E signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagwatch and osmxapi-links
Robert Vollmert wrote:
> On Jul 29, 2008, at 14:25, Stefan Neufeind wrote:
>> in tagwatch, e.g. at
>> http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Europe/En/tags.html
>> I see entries that link to adresses like
>> http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/*%5Bvalue=LIDL%5D
>>
>> That page takes quite a while to load but then returns with an empty
>> document. Is that a timeout in the api or so? How do people manage to
>> use tagwatch to find specific tagged entries (e.g. which need fixing)?
>
> Those links point to XML documents that your browser may (Firefox) or
> may not (Safari) display. Best to "download link location" and save to
> whatever.osm.
>
> Would make sense to provide some kind of style information to make any
> browser that can handle XML display the data nicely?
Hi,
my firefox (ff3) doesn't display anything here, but also no error or
something. And there is nothing in the document it downloaded ("view
document source").
Trying to wget the data from console
$ wget "http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/*%5Badopted=*%5D";
after some waiting actually results in
Connecting to osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org|137.110.119.130|:80...
connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 501 Internal Server Error
2008-07-29 15:09:20 ERROR 501: Internal Server Error.
Hmm ... I expect it's only just me and the API is working fine? :-)
Stefan
___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagwatch and osmxapi-links
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Stefan Neufeind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Trying to wget the data from console > > $ wget "http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/*%5Badopted=*%5D"; > > after some waiting actually results in > > Connecting to osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org|137.110.119.130|:80... > connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 501 Internal Server Error > 2008-07-29 15:09:20 ERROR 501: Internal Server Error. > > Hmm ... I expect it's only just me and the API is working fine? :-) The API is working fine thanks, but that isn't the API, it's zappy and that is currently down as is well documented. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Inge Wallin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Names! There are far too few names on the map, especially on low zoom > levels. It's difficult to get a feeling for where you are and orient yourself > on the map if you cannot find names on the map. The commercial maps show lots > and lots of names, and that is a good thing. We should make names appear on > the maps earlier. Can mapnik automatically render names for smaller towns in lower zoom levels if there is room for the labels? Or should we have a "mapnik_zoom_level=6" tag? This is a problem for the country side were you have lots of room to render names, but not that many big names to render. (Especially Sweden[1]) I could only find one ticket related to this: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/696 [1] Germany 230 hab/km^2 Sweden 21hab/km^2, but a large part of the country side is more in the 6-10 hab/km^2 range.. Maybe why people buy vacation houses here. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Erik Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Inge Wallin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> * Names! There are far too few names on the map, especially on low zoom >> levels. It's difficult to get a feeling for where you are and orient yourself >> on the map if you cannot find names on the map. The commercial maps show lots >> and lots of names, and that is a good thing. We should make names appear on >> the maps earlier. > > Can mapnik automatically render names for smaller towns in lower zoom > levels if there is room for the labels? Or should we have a > "mapnik_zoom_level=6" tag? This is a problem for the country side were > you have lots of room to render names, but not that many big names to > render. (Especially Sweden[1]) Tagging for rendered == Evil! Mapnik will render whatever it is told to, and will drop things if there isn't enough room. Currently our rules are not very good about the order in which they render things, which means that the wrongs things can get dropped. That should probably fixed before we start rendering more things at low zoom levels. Tom -- Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagwatch and osmxapi-links
Tom Hughes wrote: > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Stefan Neufeind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Trying to wget the data from console >> >> $ wget "http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/*%5Badopted=*%5D"; >> >> after some waiting actually results in >> >> Connecting to osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org|137.110.119.130|:80... >> connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 501 Internal Server Error >> 2008-07-29 15:09:20 ERROR 501: Internal Server Error. >> >> Hmm ... I expect it's only just me and the API is working fine? :-) > > The API is working fine thanks, but that isn't the API, it's zappy and > that is currently down as is well documented. Ah, I didn't recognize that. Is there a "simple" way to download a planet.osm (or germany.osm or so) and run an osmxapi locally? Or what would be the easiest way to extract all keys/values of a certain type or so to easily edit them in JOSM and upload those few after correction? Regards, Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Foundation - Notice of Annual General Meeting and Nominations open for Board
To all members of the OpenStreetMap Foundation, NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the 2nd Annual General Meeting of the OpenStreetMap Foundation will be held at the offices of Cloudmade Ltd, Suite 1.06 Enterprise House, 1/2 Hatfields, London, SE1 9PG, UK. on Saturday 30 August at 14.00 BST. OSMF AGM Agenda: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Foundation/AGM08 Nominations are open for the six OSMF board positions becoming vacant at the AGM. To add a nomination or your own name please see the instructions via the link below or send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . All members of the OSMF are eligible to stand for election to the Board. If you are not already a member then you can sign up via the link on the page or contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Nominations close on August 25th. Proxy voting by email opens on August 1st. The final vote will be taken at the AGM itself. Nominations and proxy voting details: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Foundation/AGM08 Cheers Andy Robinson Secretary OpenStreetMap Foundation ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Foundation - Notice of Annual General Meeting and Nominations open for Board
Andy Robinson wrote: >Sent: 29 July 2008 4:39 PM >To: 'talk' >Subject: OpenStreetMap Foundation - Notice of Annual General Meeting and >Nominations open for Board > >To all members of the OpenStreetMap Foundation, > >NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the 2nd Annual General Meeting of the >OpenStreetMap Foundation will be held at the offices of Cloudmade Ltd, >Suite 1.06 Enterprise House, 1/2 Hatfields, London, SE1 9PG, UK. on >Saturday 30 August at 14.00 BST. > >OSMF AGM Agenda: >http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Foundation/AGM08 > >Nominations are open for the six OSMF board positions becoming vacant at >the AGM. To add a nomination or your own name please see the instructions >via the link below or send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . All >members of the OSMF are eligible to stand for election to the Board. If you >are not already a member then you can sign up via the link on the page or >contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Nominations close on August 25th. >Proxy voting by email opens on August 1st. The final vote will be taken at >the AGM itself. > >Nominations and proxy voting details: >http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Foundation/AGM08 > The link immediately above should be to: "http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Foundation/AGM08/Election_of_Office rs" Apologies for that. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 4:06 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The reason I don't like ideas like this is that the data you are adding to > the way (or as Frederik pointed out possibly also the intersections) is not > actually anything to do with the physical feature. There are no house > numbers or other references on a road, only the name of the street and > perhaps a road reference number. Accepted it's a nice easy way to make > routing work more easily but that doesn't make it right for our dataset. If > we keep and maintain the simple ideal that what we map is what we see then > it keeps it all very simple. Routing algorithms may need to be more complex > as a result but that doesn't give us an excuse to corrupt our data with > misleading information. > > Cheers > > Andy > To be clear, I don't have a problem with tagging the actual location of the house or building. I think it's unnecessary, but the problem I have with the scheme is that it doesn't definitively link the node with the way (what's a house number without an associated street?) My suggestion (the third on that page, and the first using relations) was to have a relation that marked one node with left and/or right addresses at that point in a particular street. Having only a single value instead of a range makes it more resistant to breakage if the way is split or merged or if nodes are changed. It's reasonably easy for mappers, too, because it's only one point and number to mark, and if more detail is desired later, more nodes, numbers and relations can be added in between existing points. Andy, you say "it's a nice easy way to make routing work more easily but that doesn't make it right for our dataset". What is the purpose for adding house numbers, then? I hope it's for more than drawing numbers on the map, which really has limited usefulness (numbers at intersections might be helpful, and would be less clutter on a map). Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Osmxapi down
Hi, It seems osmxapi is down: $ wget http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/node[place=*][code_departement=54] Warning: wildcards not supported in HTTP. --2008-07-29 19:17:34-- http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/node[place=*][code_departement=54] Resolving osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org... 137.110.119.130 Connecting to osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org|137.110.119.130|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 501 Internal Server Error 2008-07-29 19:18:01 ERROR 501: Internal Server Error. If someone could have a look at it, that would be nice. Aurel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:16:33AM -0700, Karl Newman wrote: > To be clear, I don't have a problem with tagging the actual location of the > house or building. I think it's unnecessary, but the problem I have with the > scheme is that it doesn't definitively link the node with the way (what's a > house number without an associated street?) My suggestion (the third on that Thats why you should not only tag the building/node with the house number, but with the full address. Yes, there is some duplication of data, but its still easier than relations and doesn't break as easy. Jochen -- Jochen Topf [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Osmxapi down
Aurelien Jacobs wrote: > Hi, > > It seems osmxapi is down: > > $ wget > http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/node[place=*][code_departement=54] > Warning: wildcards not supported in HTTP. > --2008-07-29 19:17:34-- > http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/node[place=*][code_departement=54] > Resolving osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org... 137.110.119.130 > Connecting to osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org|137.110.119.130|:80... > connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 501 Internal Server Error > 2008-07-29 19:18:01 ERROR 501: Internal Server Error. > > If someone could have a look at it, that would be nice. Hi, came across the same thing here as well. It's down by intention and that's documented on the "platform status"-page in the wiki. Regards, Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Osmxapi down
It will be down for a bit. Keep an eye on the wiki for updates Cheers Andy >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aurelien Jacobs >Sent: 29 July 2008 6:20 PM >To: talk@openstreetmap.org >Subject: [OSM-talk] Osmxapi down > >Hi, > >It seems osmxapi is down: > >$ wget >http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/node[place=*][code_departe >ment=54] >Warning: wildcards not supported in HTTP. >--2008-07-29 19:17:34-- >http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/node[place=*][code_departe >ment=54] >Resolving osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org... 137.110.119.130 >Connecting to osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org|137.110.119.130|:80... >connected. >HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 501 Internal Server Error >2008-07-29 19:18:01 ERROR 501: Internal Server Error. > >If someone could have a look at it, that would be nice. > >Aurel > >___ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1578 - Release Date: 28/07/2008 >5:13 PM ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Jochen Topf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:16:33AM -0700, Karl Newman wrote: > > To be clear, I don't have a problem with tagging the actual location of > the > > house or building. I think it's unnecessary, but the problem I have with > the > > scheme is that it doesn't definitively link the node with the way (what's > a > > house number without an associated street?) My suggestion (the third on > that > > Thats why you should not only tag the building/node with the house > number, but with the full address. Yes, there is some duplication of > data, but its still easier than relations and doesn't break as easy. > > Jochen > I'm okay with data duplication. Could we do both, then--the Karlsruhe schema where actual locations are tagged with full address, and a relation to topologically link the house number with the closest node in the way? Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
Karl Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Sent: 29 July 2008 6:17 PM >To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) >Cc: Jan-Benedict Glaw; Frederik Ramm; talk >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion > >On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 4:06 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > The reason I don't like ideas like this is that the data you are >adding to > the way (or as Frederik pointed out possibly also the intersections) >is not > actually anything to do with the physical feature. There are no house > numbers or other references on a road, only the name of the street >and > perhaps a road reference number. Accepted it's a nice easy way to >make > routing work more easily but that doesn't make it right for our >dataset. If > we keep and maintain the simple ideal that what we map is what we see >then > it keeps it all very simple. Routing algorithms may need to be more >complex > as a result but that doesn't give us an excuse to corrupt our data >with > misleading information. > > Cheers > > Andy > > > >To be clear, I don't have a problem with tagging the actual location of the >house or building. I think it's unnecessary, but the problem I have with >the scheme is that it doesn't definitively link the node with the way >(what's a house number without an associated street?) My suggestion (the >third on that page, and the first using relations) was to have a relation >that marked one node with left and/or right addresses at that point in a >particular street. Having only a single value instead of a range makes it >more resistant to breakage if the way is split or merged or if nodes are >changed. It's reasonably easy for mappers, too, because it's only one point >and number to mark, and if more detail is desired later, more nodes, >numbers and relations can be added in between existing points. But it's still putting data on the street that has no relation to the street itself other than thorough the non-physical "address" association. I accept the argument for "relating" the street to the buildings along it within an address but I doubt we will be able to get basic contributors to go to the level of work that any relationship editing requires. > >Andy, you say "it's a nice easy way to make routing work more easily but >that doesn't make it right for our dataset". What is the purpose for adding >house numbers, then? I hope it's for more than drawing numbers on the map, >which really has limited usefulness (numbers at intersections might be >helpful, and would be less clutter on a map). > The purpose of adding house numbers is to reference the object being added to the database. If we have 100 buildings along a street users may very well want to know what they are. I haven't given the address relationship a lot of thought yet. Arguably an address structure is a true relationship between the place, street and building. A relationship for each address would I guess be a correct model, but until we have simple tools to select the place and street level data I don't see much benefit in adding stuff. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
Karl Newman wrote: >Sent: 29 July 2008 6:48 PM >To: Jochen Topf >Cc: talk >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion > >On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Jochen Topf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:16:33AM -0700, Karl Newman wrote: > > To be clear, I don't have a problem with tagging the actual >location of the > > house or building. I think it's unnecessary, but the problem I have >with the > > scheme is that it doesn't definitively link the node with the way >(what's a > > house number without an associated street?) My suggestion (the >third on that > > > Thats why you should not only tag the building/node with the house > number, but with the full address. Yes, there is some duplication of > data, but its still easier than relations and doesn't break as easy. > > > Jochen > > > >I'm okay with data duplication. Could we do both, then--the Karlsruhe >schema where actual locations are tagged with full address, and a relation >to topologically link the house number with the closest node in the way? I really don't think you should link to nodes in the way, they get moved around all the time. By all means link with a relation to the way but linking to nodes is asking for trouble. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Karl Newman wrote: > >Sent: 29 July 2008 6:48 PM > >To: Jochen Topf > >Cc: talk > >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion > > > >On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Jochen Topf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:16:33AM -0700, Karl Newman wrote: > > > To be clear, I don't have a problem with tagging the actual > >location of the > > > house or building. I think it's unnecessary, but the problem I > have > >with the > > > scheme is that it doesn't definitively link the node with the way > >(what's a > > > house number without an associated street?) My suggestion (the > >third on that > > > > > > Thats why you should not only tag the building/node with the house > > number, but with the full address. Yes, there is some duplication > of > > data, but its still easier than relations and doesn't break as > easy. > > > > > > Jochen > > > > > > > >I'm okay with data duplication. Could we do both, then--the Karlsruhe > >schema where actual locations are tagged with full address, and a relation > >to topologically link the house number with the closest node in the way? > > I really don't think you should link to nodes in the way, they get moved > around all the time. By all means link with a relation to the way but > linking to nodes is asking for trouble. > > Cheers > > Andy > Well, I'll accept that is a risk, but I don't know how much of a risk it really is. Adding street numbers is an activity that I see as a refinement of data, not necessarily something that will be grabbed on the first (or second or third?) outing. Hopefully by the time numbers are added, the shape of the street will have settled down. Additionally, I could foresee the editors supporting something like where the nodes could be "soft-locked" in place such that an additional action would need to be taken to move them. I just thought of another risk of not having the nodes topologically associated with the way: If the data is sliced into tiles for further processing, it's entirely likely that a node will end up in one tile and the associated street will end up in a different tile, making the number unusable (for routing purposes) in both tiles. Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] A Swedish national server for OSM
In the rather large thread "Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of the current maps" I got to understand a few things that I didn't grasp before. So to make a long story short, I have decided to check the viability of setting up a Swedish tile server + slippy map and some other services. To do that I am applying for some money from the Swedish Internet Society that has grants for such things. But to be able to write the application, I need to understand the size of the task. Things like: - How long does it take to render a typical tile set? Will a single machine be able to render all the tiles for Sweden, for instance? What's the size of the current render farm for the mapnik map on openstreetmap.org? - How much bandwidth will it use? - How difficult is it to set up a working server? I'm fairly skilled in deployment, but I have never worked with mapnik, nor osmarender or slippymaps. I am aware that the questions are fuzzy, but all data will be much appriciated. -Inge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] House numbers... One more suggestion
Jochen Topf schrieb: > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:16:33AM -0700, Karl Newman wrote: >> To be clear, I don't have a problem with tagging the actual location of the >> house or building. I think it's unnecessary, but the problem I have with the >> scheme is that it doesn't definitively link the node with the way (what's a >> house number without an associated street?) My suggestion (the third on that > > Thats why you should not only tag the building/node with the house > number, but with the full address. Yes, there is some duplication of > data, but its still easier than relations and doesn't break as easy. Do you really think so ? I really do not like the idea of multiple data for the same thing. Any duplication will bring us one step further to data chaos as nobody would care to change every street name in every address if he find a typo in one of them. tiding things together with relation, or what ever you like, seems for me the better way. Thorsten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A Swedish national server for OSM
On Tuesday 29 July 2008, Inge Wallin wrote: > So to make a long story short, I have decided to check the viability of > setting up a Swedish tile server + slippy map and some other services. To > do that I am applying for some money from the Swedish Internet Society that > has grants for such things. > > But to be able to write the application, I need to understand the size of > the task. You may be interested in the specs of the Dutch tile server (including links to setup instructions and server statistics) here (in English): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/NL_Tile_Server Good luck with your application. -- Freek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A Swedish national server for OSM
Inge Wallin wrote: > In the rather large thread "Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of > the current maps" I got to understand a few things that I didn't grasp > before. > > So to make a long story short, I have decided to check the viability of > setting up a Swedish tile server + slippy map and some other services. To do > that I am applying for some money from the Swedish Internet Society that has > grants for such things. > > But to be able to write the application, I need to understand the size of the > task. Things like: > - How long does it take to render a typical tile set? Will a single machine > be able to render all the tiles for Sweden, for instance? What's the size of > the current render farm for the mapnik map on openstreetmap.org? > > - How much bandwidth will it use? > > - How difficult is it to set up a working server? I'm fairly skilled in > deployment, but I have never worked with mapnik, nor osmarender or > slippymaps. > > I am aware that the questions are fuzzy, but all data will be much > appriciated. > > -Inge > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk > Overall it isn't too difficult to setup. Hardest part is just getting everything installed and working together (as there are a number of dependencies), but overall if you follow the instructions that are out there its not too bad. I've got a partial setup running on openstreetmap.ca (that isn't public yet), but to answer the other questions it should serve as a baseline. The system behind that site is an Opteron 246 with a couple gb of ram, and can re-render all of Canada through Mapnik in under a day. Sweden shouldn't be anywhere near that long. Overall the slowest part of the setup is getting the data into postgres to start with. Bandwidth is the only number that is really unknown, as its going to fluctuate greatly. -Jason Reid ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A Swedish national server for OSM
On Tue, 2008-07-29 at 20:57 +0200, Inge Wallin wrote: > In the rather large thread "Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of > the current maps" I got to understand a few things that I didn't grasp > before. > > So to make a long story short, I have decided to check the viability of > setting up a Swedish tile server + slippy map and some other services. To do > that I am applying for some money from the Swedish Internet Society that has > grants for such things. > > But to be able to write the application, I need to understand the size of the > task. Things like: > - How long does it take to render a typical tile set? If you take a look at the munin graphs you'll see that the Mapnik server spends roughly 5 day of the week re-rendering all the existing tiles[1]. This is re-rendering every tile that has ever been requested each week which is overkill. A render on demand strategy would cut the CPU but increase the latency for map users. > Will a single machine > be able to render all the tiles for Sweden, for instance? What's the size of > the current render farm for the mapnik map on openstreetmap.org? Yes. The current 'render farm' is one machine. It is a 2 x dual core machine with 12GB of ram[2]. A less powerful machine should be able to easily cope with rendering the tiles for a small area. > - How much bandwidth will it use? The main Mapnik server often pushes data at 10-20Mbps range so you should probably expect something in the order of 1Mbps but this obviously depends greatly on how successful you are at attracting users. > - How difficult is it to set up a working server? I'm fairly skilled in > deployment, but I have never worked with mapnik, nor osmarender or > slippymaps. Deploying the slippy map is quite easy. Getting the Mapnik compiled and rendering tiles is fairly tricky but there are several people that have been through the process and can probably help you provided you use a modern Linux distro. I don't know anything about deploying Osmarender. > I am aware that the questions are fuzzy, but all data will be much > appriciated. > Jon [1] http://munin.openstreetmap.org/openstreetmap/tile.openstreetmap-cpu.html [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Servers/tileserv ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A Swedish national server for OSM
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 7:57 PM, Inge Wallin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In the rather large thread "Actually using OpenStreetMap and the usability of > the current maps" I got to understand a few things that I didn't grasp > before. > > So to make a long story short, I have decided to check the viability of > setting up a Swedish tile server + slippy map and some other services. To do > that I am applying for some money from the Swedish Internet Society that has > grants for such things. > > But to be able to write the application, I need to understand the size of the > task. Things like: > - How long does it take to render a typical tile set? Will a single machine > be able to render all the tiles for Sweden, for instance? What's the size of > the current render farm for the mapnik map on openstreetmap.org? > > - How much bandwidth will it use? > > - How difficult is it to set up a working server? I'm fairly skilled in > deployment, but I have never worked with mapnik, nor osmarender or > slippymaps. > > I am aware that the questions are fuzzy, but all data will be much > appriciated. > For the cyclemap we prerender the tiles and upload them to a cheap "dumb" webhost. The coverage of the cyclemap is quite large, but typically only goes as far down as zoom 13 (or zoom 14 for the UK), we do selected cities at higher zoom. We render on a box with the cheapest quad core processor available (Core2 Q6600), and 8GB RAM -- this does approximately 1 million tiles in about 5 hours (and includes contours -- the standard rendering is 2-3 times faster to render). Our main bottleneck is then uploading these tiles to the webhost. In July the cyclemap used approximately 200GB of bandwidth serving tiles -- but it is quite popular and the tile sizes are actually quite large... In terms of setup, if you're doing an on-demand modtile solution, then it relatively easy.. just follow the instructions on the wiki -- give it a try on a VM first to test out the process on the distro that you want to use. Relative is obviously relative... but it's easier than MythTV Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A Swedish national server for OSM
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Dave Stubbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 7:57 PM, Inge Wallin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In the rather large thread "Actually using OpenStreetMap and the > usability of > > the current maps" I got to understand a few things that I didn't grasp > > before. > > > > So to make a long story short, I have decided to check the viability of > > setting up a Swedish tile server + slippy map and some other services. To > do > > that I am applying for some money from the Swedish Internet Society that > has > > grants for such things. > > > > But to be able to write the application, I need to understand the size of > the > > task. Things like: > > - How long does it take to render a typical tile set? Will a single > machine > > be able to render all the tiles for Sweden, for instance? What's the size > of > > the current render farm for the mapnik map on openstreetmap.org? > > > > - How much bandwidth will it use? > > > > - How difficult is it to set up a working server? I'm fairly skilled in > > deployment, but I have never worked with mapnik, nor osmarender or > > slippymaps. > > > > I am aware that the questions are fuzzy, but all data will be much > > appriciated. > > > > For the cyclemap we prerender the tiles and upload them to a cheap > "dumb" webhost. The coverage of the cyclemap is quite large, but > typically only goes as far down as zoom 13 (or zoom 14 for the UK), we > do selected cities at higher zoom. > > We render on a box with the cheapest quad core processor available > (Core2 Q6600), and 8GB RAM -- this does approximately 1 million tiles > in about 5 hours (and includes contours -- the standard rendering is > 2-3 times faster to render). Our main bottleneck is then uploading > these tiles to the webhost. > > In July the cyclemap used approximately 200GB of bandwidth serving > tiles -- but it is quite popular and the tile sizes are actually quite > large... > > In terms of setup, if you're doing an on-demand modtile solution, then > it relatively easy.. just follow the instructions on the wiki -- give > it a try on a VM first to test out the process on the distro that you > want to use. Relative is obviously relative... but it's easier than > MythTV > > Dave > What's hard about "emerge mythtv"? Unless you want a remote control (lirc), and a LCD display (LCDproc), and RAID (mdadm) and LVM... Oh, I guess it was a bit of a pain. ;-) Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Poster Things (part 2)
I got the cc from Martijn, which reminded me to subscribe to the talk-list. Anyhow, the "poster things". I've talked with the designer who actually made them, and he can give me the design with which you all could make your own posters. I'm trying to persuade him to fix the transparancy problem first ;-). However, they can also make those stands for you. For a lousy ;-) 185 euro (excl VAT and shipment outside NL) you will have a 80cm wide by 200cm high poster packed in a metal holder in a carrying case. The holder is also the actual poster stand (lay the holder on the ground, pull the poster up, and you're done). (Slight) alterations in the design can be done without extra cost. If your interested in the poster stand or just the design, let me know. Cheers, Henk Hoff ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Milestone
On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >With a readymade image containing an OSM rendering toolchain - Mapnik, > >osm2pgsql and TileCache - plus some instructions on the wiki, we'd > >have a "roll your own cartography kit". A WYSIWYG stylesheet editor > >would be the icing on the cake but not necessary at the start. I am > >way out of my depth here technically, but wouldn't that be so, so cool? > > > > +1, very cool and something I'd try my hand at. So how might we kick > something off, even if it's a bit too challenging for some of us, me > included? > > I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I've made some steps in this direction here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OnDemandTileServer It's only a few weeks old but it already needs some improvements: 1. Ideally should use fedora 9 rather than fedora 8, I didn't have time to download 9 at the time (I have now but haven't started from scratch yet). 2. Mod_tile has seen a number of improvements recently, font paths have changed among other things. 3. osm2pgsql is introducing the ability to apply changesets directly. Not sure if this supports a small region. The vmware image runs well in 512MB of RAM. It may not scale well to a full planet but I suspect most people won't be interested in a full planet anyway, if they do it should be a matter of tweaking vmware and postgres memory settings. I'm a complete noob to mapnik so haven't looked at stylesheet customisations yet. Brett ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Chinese font problem
Hi everybody: I saw city names in China and Japan are not little squares anymore. Nice job. But some name tags are still little squares, like http://b.tile.openstreetmap.org/18/218682/114077.png and http://a.tile.openstreetmap.org/14/14537/6464.png. Is it font problem? Cheers. Louis Liu ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Chinese font problem
2008/7/30 Louis Liu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi everybody: > I saw city names in China and Japan are not little squares anymore. > > Nice job. > > But some name tags are still little squares, like > http://b.tile.openstreetmap.org/18/218682/114077.png and > http://a.tile.openstreetmap.org/14/14537/6464.png. > Is it font problem? > It looks like it's only been done on zoom levels up to 14 for place names and street names, though motorway names don't seem to have that fontset applied... Not sure if the rendering only to zoom 14 is due to those zoom levels having been rendered specially or something... I looked at the fontsets template file on svn http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/mapnik/osm-template-fontset.xmland it didn't seem to mention names for motorways or only using the fontsets at certain zoom levels... so maybe the live render rules are different... It looks like it's a work in progress but it is looking good! d ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
