Re: [OSM-talk] maori/english search oddities for nz towns

[Robin Paulson]

On 8 July 2010 14:36, Tim McNamara  wrote:
> "Aotearoa New Zealand" would be a better name, at least in en-NZ [1]. It's a
> much more politically correct term than "New Zealand"; we're not Dutch. "New

i was never keen on basing my decisions upon manipulative
empty-headed, ambiguous jargon like 'politically correct'

despite that, 'Aotearoa New Zealand' may be the best bet for 'name='

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Re: [OSM-talk] maori/english search oddities for nz towns

[Tim McNamara]

On 8 July 2010 14:29, Robin Paulson  wrote:

> On 8 July 2010 00:29, Brian Quinion 
> wrote:
> > 2 Part answer:
> >
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/556706
> >
> > Aotearoa is used because it is the default name if it can't find a
> > language match.
>
> ah, interesting. that should probably be name:mi
>
> well spotted, i'll change that


"Aotearoa New Zealand" would be a better name, at least in en-NZ [1]. It's a
much more politically correct term than "New Zealand"; we're not Dutch. "New
Zealand" is probably a good global default though.

Tim

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#Etymology
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Re: [OSM-talk] maori/english search oddities for nz towns

[Robin Paulson]

On 8 July 2010 00:29, Brian Quinion  wrote:
> 2 Part answer:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/556706
>
> Aotearoa is used because it is the default name if it can't find a
> language match.

ah, interesting. that should probably be name:mi

well spotted, i'll change that

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Re: [OSM-talk] sotm2010 video stream?

[John F. Eldredge]

At a guess, there may not be enough bandwidth available for video streaming.  I 
have seen the results of trying to stream video over an overly-congested 
connection; the results are annoyingly jerky.


---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] sotm2010 video stream?
>From  :mailto:pavithra...@gmail.com
Date  :Wed Jul 07 16:13:55 America/Chicago 2010


On 7 July 2010 04:09, Floris Looijesteijn  wrote:
> yes, both tracks will be recorded.

It would be nice to have video streaming .
Anyways please update
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23sotm10&result_type=recent second
 by second :P Atleast we will have a live  text stream ;)

Regards,
Pavithran
--
pavithran sakamuri
http://look-pavi.blogspot.com

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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [OSM-talk] sotm2010 video stream?

[pavithran]

On 7 July 2010 04:09, Floris Looijesteijn  wrote:
> yes, both tracks will be recorded.

It would be nice to have video streaming .
Anyways please update
http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23sotm10&result_type=recent second
 by second :P Atleast we will have a live  text stream ;)

Regards,
Pavithran
-- 
pavithran sakamuri
http://look-pavi.blogspot.com

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[OSM-talk] State Of Country Posters - Deadline 8/07/2010 10AM

[Emilie Laffray]

Hello,

the deadline for posters for State Of Country is on 8/07/2010 10am (tomorrow
morning). The poster is A1 vertical. An example can be found at the
following link: http://dl.free.fr/mcXHIJPi4
It would be good to have a link for it. You can reply to that email.

Emilie Laffray
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[OSM-legal-talk] public transport routing and OSM-ODbL

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

   I talked to a public transport operator today. They want to build a 
routing engine for their network with special focus on accessibility 
(e.g. taking into account that if you have a certain type of wheelchair 
you may perhaps not be able to reach bus stop X from your starting point 
and rather need to use bus stop Y, or a certain changeover is unsuitable 
if you're blind and you'd better use something else etc.).


Because there's an endless list of things that might affect 
accessibility, they would like to use OSM data for that, so that their 
users can fix things themselves.


They have no problem releasing information about their halts/stops and 
their route network, but what they want to keep private is their 
schedule database, i.e. which bus stop or underground station is 
serviced by which line when.


I would really like to find a way to make this possible because it would 
be a brilliant application of OSM data (and nobody in OSM is interested 
in when a bus calls at a station anyway). However, in terms of ODbL the 
route description they produce will be a produced work which is based on 
a database derived from OSM, so they will have to release that database. 
It is probably going to be very painful to try and separate OSM data 
from their schedule data.


Would you agree with me when I say:

1. If you have a pre-processing step that mixes your schedule data with 
OSM data and then something else that does routing on the resulting data 
set, you will have to release it all.


2. If you manage to do your pre-processing in a way that only mixes your 
static network data with OSM, resulting in a data structure that 
contains information like "transit from stop X to stop Y possible for 
these types of vehicles" and so on, and then your router process, upon 
startup, reads this file plus another file with all the schedule data, 
then you can get away with only releasing the static network file.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Area-type objects and ways along its boundaries

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/7/7 Frederik Ramm :
> sense. I think in many cases the boundary definition does not exist
> independently of the feature.


yes, of course if this is the case (and boundary mapping depends on
the feature and not on an import), it is perfectly right to do it,
otherwise it's perfectly wrong ;-). Still if the feature (not the
mapping representation) changes in real life, the boundary will
usually not.

To give you an example: the border between Eastern Germany and Poland
was after WW II fixed in a treaty in 1950 (Görlitzer Abkommen [1]),
later in 1990 confirmed for reunified Germany in the so-called
2+4-treaty. It is true that the treaty first deals in a general manner
with the border (the border shall starting from the baltic sea go down
the river east of the village xy, ...), but if you then look further
(Art. 5, page 7 of the pdf) you will discover, that there is indeed a
procedure to fix the exact position: it is marked on the spot. So as I
read it, the official border is the marked one, not the description
with rivers and villages.



> I know both sides to this argument and they have been discussed endlessly.
> Both sides have merits. It is good to know both techniques and use them
> where they work. Neither technique is superior.


+1


cheers,
Martin

[1] 
http://download.diplo.de/diplo/1950-07-06%20MFAAVV-I_1-180-182%20G%3frlitzer%20Abkommen.pdf

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Re: [OSM-talk] Area-type objects and ways along its boundaries

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

It really depends on how the boundaries are legally defined. In my country,
boundaries between barangays (the smallest political unit) in a city or
municipality often are defined in terms of roads especially in urban cities
and municipalities. The boundary is not even the centerline but the road
itself! In this case adjacent barangays share responsibility for the road in
cooperation with the city or municipality government. So here it makes sense
to use the road's OSM way as part of the boundary relation.

So I agree with Pieren. It's wrong to generalize that boundaries should
never share the same OSM way with roads.


On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> M?rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> so I it seems your country is doing things just as any other country
>> and you should think about not glueing borders to features.
>>
>
> I think glueing borders to features is perfectly all right; I even advise
> people to use roads or river centrelines in boundary relations if it makes
> sense. I think in many cases the boundary definition does not exist
> independently of the feature.
>
>
>  I come
>> back again with some point already mentioned above: additional points
>> of roads for attributes like width or maxspeed, etc.: those will all
>> "curve" the road slightly (because points are never 100% linear in
>> OSM, or keep to be linear after some edits), hence curving the
>> boundary as a result.
>>
>
> It all depends on how the mapping has been done. If the boundary has been
> imported from another source that may be one thing but if the boundary has
> been mapped normally then it is very likely that any future refining of the
> road geometry actually benefits the boundary rather than making it "less
> precise".
>
> I know both sides to this argument and they have been discussed endlessly.
> Both sides have merits. It is good to know both techniques and use them
> where they work. Neither technique is superior.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
>
> ___
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>



-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] maori/english search oddities for nz towns

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 8:29 PM, Brian Quinion <
openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk> wrote:

> 2 Part answer:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/556706
>
> Aotearoa is used because it is the default name if it can't find a
> language match.
>
> Firefox sends a language sequence of EN-AU, EN, ...
> IE apparently only sends EN-AU (no pure EN)
>
> This would seem to be a bug in IE - it should be sending a complete
> list of languages in order not just the country specific version.
>

Or, alternatively, Nominatim could, seeing as there is no name:en-au tag,
strip out the dialect part of the Accept-Language HTTP header (EN-AU --> EN)
first to search for possible matches before defaulting to the default name.
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[OSM-talk] Anyone else travelling to Girona by train from Paris?

[David Earl]

Is anyone else, by any chance, travelling to Girona on the Trenhotel 
overnight train from Paris? If so, do contact me (off list) and we could 
meet up on the train. I'm talking about the one leaving Paris around 
20:30 on Thursday evening.


David

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona

[Oliver (skobbler)]

Hi Richard,

>> I would appreciate to find my hotel in Girona: Joan Maragall, 10 - 17002
>> Girona
>
>Have a safe trip.
>
>http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.971787&mlon=2.783665&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF

that is the WRONG place. Entering the address in OSM leads to the wrong
place! There was too much emphasis on the trees ;-))

This is the right place:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.979925&mlon=2.821512&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF

Thanks anyway and see you tomorrow.

Oliver
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5265131.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona

[Richard Weait]

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 9:55 PM, Oliver (skobbler)
 wrote:
>
>>Does that mean we should not import trees in towns like Girona? (
> http://osm.org/go/xu1ff...@- )
>
> I would appreciate to find my hotel in Girona: Joan Maragall, 10 - 17002
> Girona

Have a safe trip.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.971787&mlon=2.783665&zoom=18&layers=B000FTF

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Re: [OSM-talk] maori/english search oddities for nz towns

[Brian Quinion]

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 3:40 AM, Robin Paulson  wrote:
> well, here's an odd thing:
>
> if i search for pahia from firefox 3.6, it returns 'Pahia, New Zealand'
> if i search from IE7, it returns 'Pahia, Aotearoa' . Aotearoa is the
> Maori name for New Zealand. or rather, new Zealand is the English name
> for Aotearoa
>
> any suggestions why?
>
> can someone else try this, and see what happens

2 Part answer:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/556706

Aotearoa is used because it is the default name if it can't find a
language match.

Firefox sends a language sequence of EN-AU, EN, ...
IE apparently only sends EN-AU (no pure EN)

This would seem to be a bug in IE - it should be sending a complete
list of languages in order not just the country specific version.

--
 Brian

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Re: [OSM-talk] That license change link

[Tobias Knerr]

Mike Collinson wrote:
> You may have seen a new link at the top of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org 
> about the forthcoming license change and seen it growing in size.
> [...] Translations into other languages are also greatly welcome.

I assume we are talking about this page:
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/We_Are_Changing_The_License

Providing translations is likely one of the most important tasks in
increasing acceptance for the license change, and the lack of translated
material is one of the most common complaints right now. Even if people
will probably continue to ask for translations of the legal texts (or at
least the "human readable" summaries), translating that page would be a
good start.

So if I had created a translation of the text (which I haven't done so
far, but might do if no one else volunteers), where would I publish it?

Tobias Knerr

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Re: [OSM-talk] Area-type objects and ways along its boundaries

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

M?rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

so I it seems your country is doing things just as any other country
and you should think about not glueing borders to features. 


I think glueing borders to features is perfectly all right; I even 
advise people to use roads or river centrelines in boundary relations if 
it makes sense. I think in many cases the boundary definition does not 
exist independently of the feature.



I come
back again with some point already mentioned above: additional points
of roads for attributes like width or maxspeed, etc.: those will all
"curve" the road slightly (because points are never 100% linear in
OSM, or keep to be linear after some edits), hence curving the
boundary as a result.


It all depends on how the mapping has been done. If the boundary has 
been imported from another source that may be one thing but if the 
boundary has been mapped normally then it is very likely that any future 
refining of the road geometry actually benefits the boundary rather than 
making it "less precise".


I know both sides to this argument and they have been discussed 
endlessly. Both sides have merits. It is good to know both techniques 
and use them where they work. Neither technique is superior.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Area-type objects and ways along its boundaries

[Mike N.]

(although with JOSM you can easily unglue nodes or you can also delete the 
way and create a new one when these changes are required).


 It depends on your definition of easy.In the cases I have run into, it 
is necessary to modify a short section of road, therefore I can't just 
select all nodes of a way.   It is also frequently difficult to select just 
the nodes I need to unglue.Therefore I have to select one node at a time 
and unglue.   Then dragging that section road out from under the boundary 
has its own challenges - use of middle mouse button requires its own 
dexterity - one node at a time. 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Area-type objects and ways along its boundaries

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/7/7 Pieren :
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:56 AM, John F. Eldredge 
>> So, what happens in your region if the road planners decide to alter the
>> position of part of a road,
> Most probably the boundary will not move. But we also have many cases where
> boundaries are moving but not the features (e.g. parcels transfer from one
> municipality to another).


so I it seems your country is doing things just as any other country
and you should think about not glueing borders to features. I come
back again with some point already mentioned above: additional points
of roads for attributes like width or maxspeed, etc.: those will all
"curve" the road slightly (because points are never 100% linear in
OSM, or keep to be linear after some edits), hence curving the
boundary as a result.


> So how do you draw adjacent buildings ? you also draw them unglued because
> every day, some buildings are somewhere destroyed or modified, then we
> should never glue nodes because it possibly will make the next contributor
> life a little bit harder when he/she will fix the building ?


this is a completely different issue as shared buildings don't just
coincidentally share nodes: they are physically connected and will
probably remain such even if one building is destroyed and
reconstructed, while a boundary will most of the times not move when a
river or road moves. A boundary will not become more complex because
there is a speed limit introduced to a road.

cheers,
Martin

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[OSM-talk] Society of Cartographers conference

[Steve Chilton]

Going to SOTM10 and want more?
Or not going to SOTM and want some?

Details of the Society of Cartographers conference from 8-10 Sept at the 
University of Manchester are now available on the web:
http://www.soc.org.uk/manchester10/
The Friday sessions may well be of particular interest to OSMers, with several 
speakers and topics of direct relevance.
Check it out - day passes are available.

Cheers
STEVE

Steve Chilton, Learning Support Fellow
Manager of e-Learning Academic Development
Centre for Educational Technology
Middlesex University
phone/fax: 020 8411 5355
email: ste...@mdx.ac.uk
http://elearning.middlesex.wikispaces.net/Steve+Chilton

Chair of the Society of Cartographers: http://www.soc.org.uk/

Annual Teaching & Learning conf: http://elearn.mdx.ac.uk/engaging/

Are your programme's undergraduate bridging materials ready for the Sept 2010 
start? To prepare, update or create, email 
eLearning 
for information about training and support available March-April 2010.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Area-type objects and ways along its boundaries

[Pieren]

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:56 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

> So, what happens in your region if the road planners decide to alter the
> position of part of a road, such as making a curve more gentle?  Are the
> municipal borders then shifted so that they still match the roadway, or so
> they now differ from the road's location?
>
>
Most probably the boundary will not move. But we also have many cases where
boundaries are moving but not the features (e.g. parcels transfer from one
municipality to another).
That's not the question. I see that you are against sharing nodes in general
because it makes corrections harder (although with JOSM you can easily
unglue nodes or you can also delete the way and create a new one when these
changes are required).
So how do you draw adjacent buildings ? you also draw them unglued because
every day, some buildings are somewhere destroyed or modified, then we
should never glue nodes because it possibly will make the next contributor
life a little bit harder when he/she will fix the building ?

Pieren
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