[OSM-talk] Potlatch2 and shp files

[Sam Vekemans]

Hi,
Does anyone know if there are plans to ipliment the auto-conversion of
shp files to be used in the foreground of the potlatch2 environment?
Thanks,
Sam

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[OSM-talk] Blue sky API: Branching function

[Brendan Morley]

Hi all,

Firstly, put this in the "blue sky dreaming" bucket.  But I am 
interested in the latent demand out there.


Some of us will be familiar with subversion or git, which are source 
code version control systems.


We also know that OSM API v0.6 contains some Changeset semantics.

However, I don't think v0.6 has the concept of branching?  And 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API_v0.7 doesn't mention it either?


I'd like to introduce the concept of branches in the OSM API.  Branches 
in the OSM API would be similar to branches in a more traditional VCS.  
You would use them to stage a set of changes that you hope to have 
eventually merged into the main map.


Now, consider these use-cases - somewhat contrived but not by much:

1. Several importable datasets can cover a particular region - e.g. a 
national dataset at low level of detail and a provincial dataset at a 
high level of detail.  Both are compatible with the licence of the day 
(CC BY or CC BY-SA, etc).  And we want to convert and present them to 
our userbase in the form they've come to know and love.


Right now, we can only feasibly pick one or the other.  To pick both 
would mean the major Ways would have a doubled-up representation.  An 
alternative is to go through the 2 datasets and manually merge them 
before uploading to the API.


If a concept of "branching" occurred, we could run a "trunk"/"master" 
(similar in concept to what we have today) and then 2 additional 
branches, e.g. "ca-gov" and "ca-gov-provincial".  Load them all up and 
then merge the branches into the trunk at a more leisurely pace.  Get 
your friends to help out.


The "gov" branches could also be a staging point for community changes 
to be accepted back into government repositories.



2. For "what-if" scenarios.  For example, to illustrate a proposal for a 
new motorway or something.  I suppose this could be extended to complete 
fantasy scenarios (though if this were the case I would discourage 
hosting them on the main OSM website).



Any plan would be to firstly achieve svn-like functionality and 
stabilise it; then secondly to try on a full DVCS scenario, like git, in 
an additional release (which would make the fantasy mappers happy).


I think we could introduce it in a way that doesn't break 0.6 XML 
parsers.  You might introduce a new XML attribute in Changesets, such as 
"branch name" or "parent" (I'm not sure how git does it).  Anything 
lacking the new tag would continue to be assumed as a implicit 
trunk/mainline change.


The API database schema itself would also have to be mutated.  I haven't 
yet worked out if this is trivial, either in the schema itself or its 
likely performance impacts.


There is an implied semantic being broken that I can think of: You could 
no longer assume that the change history is ordered by ID or timestamp.



Thoughts?


Brendan

ref: http://book.git-scm.com/1_the_git_object_model.html


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Dave F.]

 On 08/10/2010 20:32, Dmitri Lebedev wrote:

Hi, Dave F.,


Hi Dmitri





For instance the second photo' is labeled as impassable.
Clearly it is not. I could go down it on foot, mountain bike or even 
asuitable motor vehicle despite what is said on the wiki.


Being young and dreaming is nice, but no, you couldn't. :)


Thank you for describing me as young :)

Basically, you'll have to carry the bike on yourself (and walk up to 
the knee in mud). The avg speed is 0.5 km/h.
The cars in the picture move at the same speed with the aid of their 
winches. I tried such surfaces on MTB with and without rucksack. Even 
without weight you move really slowly.


Technically, it is just the same as shallow swamp or a taiga forest, 
except there are no trees to cut to make way. ;)


Both you & Greb think that I'm saying you shouldn't map this way. That 
is *not* what I'm saying.


What I am saying, is it should be tagged with accurate *physical* 
descriptions.


The wiki page describes subjective information.

Unless it's actually closed by authority don't say it's impassible. For 
instance in defense of your argument that it's impassable you say the 
average speed is 0.5km/h. This comment proves the it *is* passable, just 
very slowly.


The reason the vehicles in the picture needs winches is because they're 
*not* suited to the terrain, not that the terrain is impassible.


A colleague of mine has a Ural truck that *could* travel this way.

*http://www.4wdonline.com/Mil/Ural/PiCs37/375D.jpg*

As I said before, please don't tag ways based on your limited 
experiences, tag them on *factual* information, & leave subjective 
decisions of whether they're *able* to the people traveling that way.


Cheers
Dave F.






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Re: [OSM-talk] If you've missed this ...

[Milo van der Linden]

Thanks for the warm welcome Mike ;-)

Steve, best of luck! If your decision was made with personal health and joy
in life in mind, you couldn't have made a better choice. God spede!


2010/10/7 Mike Collinson 

> My very best to Steve.  I've been through this with my own baby, a digital
> animation company, and it is a bruising experience.
>
> I continue to welcome in the OSM community anyone who is lucky enough to be
> also professionally or entrepreneurially engaged and personally rather hope
> Steve finds a new angle.
>
> Mike
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Introducing Taginfo

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

Also sprach Jochen Topf [Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 06:10:39PM +0200] :
> On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 11:10:11AM +0200, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
> > Richard Weait wrote:
> >> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:55 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
> >>> Jochen Topf wrote:
>  http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de
 I love it. Do you plan to introduce substring searches with wildcards ? 
>>> [..]
>>> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de/keys/source
>>> - click magnifying glass icon at lower left of result window.
>>> - add "gps" and press return
>>
>> Wonderful - thanks for the tip.
>>
>> Now a total count for the result returned would be nice.
> 
> You get the total count in the bottom info field "Displaying 1 to 15 of 84 
> items".
> Or do you want the sum of the contents of the "Count" column?

The sum of the "Count" column would be useful. For example, on the talk-fr we
debated over the sources of OSM data and went looking for the sum of the counts
of fields containing "GPS" or "Cadastre".


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[OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Dmitri Lebedev]

Hi, Dave F.,


For instance the second photo' is labeled as impassable.
Clearly it is not. I could go down it on foot, mountain bike or even a 
suitable motor vehicle despite what is said on the wiki.


Being young and dreaming is nice, but no, you couldn't. :) Basically,  
you'll have to carry the bike on yourself (and walk up to the knee in  
mud). The avg speed is 0.5 km/h.
The cars in the picture move at the same speed with the aid of their  
winches. I tried such surfaces on MTB with and without rucksack. Even  
without weight you move really slowly.


Technically, it is just the same as shallow swamp or a taiga forest,  
except there are no trees to cut to make way. ;)


Dmitri,
Novosibirsk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 19:23, Dmitri Lebedev  wrote:

> I want to support this guy's proposal.

Then support it by starting to map it.

Really, there's no reason to get formal approval for tags. Just write
down on some Russian wikipage that winter roads are `winter_road=yes`
or something like that.

Then just use it, and if it's found to be lacking later it's easy to
find all those tags and change them.

Mapping is the bottleneck, not coming up with a perfect tagging
scheme.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Dmitri Lebedev]

Hello,
I want to support this guy's proposal.

I have to say winter roads are a totally different thing than "normal"  
roads.


In summer, there's just no road at all. NO ROAD. If you need to get  
somewhere, use river boats or helicopters.


The area where a winter road is can be a swamp, a scrub, a forest (taiga),  
but there's no road in summer there, in fact in swamps it just can't be  
there.


Even if one tries to build it there, he will hit one big obstacle called  
permafrost. Basically, in permafrost areas, in a few metres under the  
ground the land is frozen even by the end of summer. (that's because  
yearly average temperatures are sub-zero). The layer above, that melts and  
freezes with seasons, behaves very specifically.


First, water in the molten layer can't percolate down through the frozen  
one below, and in plain areas just stays there, forming swamps, or just a  
land that's wetter than average in your place. When it freezes, it expands  
(since water is not a metal, it's most dense at +4 degrees, with  
temperature going down it EXPANDS, and pushes all around making a big  
pressure). Since the ground is uneven, guess what, if you put a road  
there, the surface will be pushed from below UNEVENLY. That's why even  
strong armed concrete does not guarantee the road will stand more than one  
winter. Add swamps that are widespread in permafrost, and try to guess how  
much it can cost to build a 200 km of a road.


To get the idea, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permafrost

So, that's why it's enormously costy to build a "normal" road there where  
winter roads exist. In winter, when the temperature is below 0 degrees C  
for MONTHS, ice is a stable and hard base and with a few work can make a  
good road. BTW, ice is not as slippery as on the ice rink in your city.  
You can ride on bare ice if the surface is rough. AND, in winter it snows,  
so in a matter of 1-2 weeks the road is a stiff compressed snow, which is  
as slippery as sand :)




To sum up: winter roads are very special and have to be treated with  
respect and shown appropriately.


It can't be any type of highway that we have now. You can't put there  
highway=unclassified, surface=ice and make a driver guess: "hmm, is that  
road in 100 km to the north a normal one, or the navigator leads me into  
swamps?"



Hope that explains better,
Dmitri.
Novosibirsk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Gleb Smirnoff]

On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 03:38:16PM +, ??var Arnfj??r?? Bjarmason wrote:
?> There have been discussions on and off about seasonal roads / opening
?> times. See e.g.:
?> 
?> http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg11274.html
?> 
?> There are more like that, but I couldn't find any with a quick search.
?> 
?> Anyway, since it's an official Winter road I recommend just tagging it
?> as:
?> 
?> XYZ:winter_road = yes
?> 
?> Wher XYZ is the acronym or name of the Russian classification
?> agency.
?> 
?> But we probably want some sort of genaral scheme in the long term,
?> e.g. in some countries there aren't "winter roads" but rather just
?> roads with different degrees of guaranteed maintenance. Some roads
?> might e.g. be plowed once a day in the winter, and others once a week.

Well, winter_road would be fine, it will do its thing - mark winter
roads.

However, surface tag is preferred. First, we already have standartized
tag surface=ice_road, who is the closest brother of winter_road. Second,
this tag really describes the surface. The surface of winter road is
tamped snow always, when this road can be treated as road :)

P.S. I'd appreciate comments from mappers from Canada and Alaska.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Introducing Taginfo

[Jochen Topf]

On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 09:35:50PM +1100, Steve Bennett wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 12:37 AM, Jochen Topf  wrote:
> > I am happy to announce that the beast is now available at
> >
> >    http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de
> 
> Awesome. If you want to hook into JOSM, Potlatch, Mapnik, Osmarender,
> Kosmos, etc, I've done the hard work for you here:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport

Cool. Do you get more info out of Osmarender, Mapnik files etc. than just
whether the tag is in there? I would like to extract as much information
as possible, like icons used etc.

> (See the talk page for source code)

The talk page is empty?

Jochen
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[OSM-talk] highway=incline

[Gorm E. Johnsen]

Hi

There are now only a few if any ways with highway=incline* left.
They have all been changed to highway= +
(incline=yes or incline=steep).

Any objections to removing
highway=inclineand
highway=incline_steepfrom
Map Features and adding them to
depreciated ?

I was also thinking of changing the remaining 3400 nodes (or so) nodes
tagged with highway=incline* to incline=yes (or steep). Any objections?

At the same time I will also raise a few tickets with the various editors
and rendrers for the necessary patching.

best regards

Gorm E. Johnsen
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Re: [OSM-talk] Introducing Taginfo

[Jochen Topf]

On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 11:05:10AM +0200, Matt Williams wrote:
> On 5 October 2010 15:37, Jochen Topf  wrote:
> > For the last months I have been working on a software called Taginfo that
> > brings together information about OSM tags from the OSM database, the wiki
> > and other places. Somewhat like Tagwatch, Tagstat, and OSMdoc, but more
> > ambitious. :-)
> >
> > I am happy to announce that the beast is now available at
> >
> >    http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de
> >
> > There are still some bugs and lots of missing features, but its already
> > usable. Updates are currently done manually, but I will do automatic daily
> > updates soon.
> >
> > All the software to run this is Open Source so please go ahead, run your
> > own versions and send me patches.
> >
> > More details and background in my blog entry at:
> >
> >    http://blog.jochentopf.com/2010-10-05-introducing-taginfo.html
> >
> > Bug reports and feature ideas welcome.
> 
> It seems to be a great tool but the ability to search within tag
> values would be nice. For example I wanted to find how I should tag a
> supermarket so I type 'supermarket' into the search box. As you can
> see [1] the only match it finds is for the _key_ 'supermarket' which
> is an extremely uncommon tag with only three uses [2]. Now, since I
> know that really the tag to use is shop=supermarket I searched for
> shop [3] and as it turns out, supermarket is the most common value for
> the shop tag [4].

Search in values will definitely come at some point, its very much at the
top of my ToDo list.

Jochen
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Re: [OSM-talk] Introducing Taginfo

[Jochen Topf]

On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 11:10:11AM +0200, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
> Richard Weait wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:55 AM, Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:
>>> Jochen Topf wrote:
 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de
>>> I love it. Do you plan to introduce substring searches with wildcards ? That
>>> would be useful for sifting through key values - for example I wanted to
>>> find all the "source" tags with values containing the substring "GPS".
>>
>> This already works.
>>
>> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de/keys/source
>> - click magnifying glass icon at lower left of result window.
>> - add "gps" and press return
>
> Wonderful - thanks for the tip.
>
> Now a total count for the result returned would be nice.

You get the total count in the bottom info field "Displaying 1 to 15 of 84 
items".
Or do you want the sum of the contents of the "Count" column?

>> Feature request.  Could the value search string be included in a link?
>>  Something like
>> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.de/keys/source?gps
>> for the above?

Difficult because of the different tabs. Different search string mean different
things for different tabs. I'll keep it in mind.

The whole search and filtering thing needs a re-think anyway.

> That would make sharing easier. But maybe the REST API could be used  
> instead.

The REST API can do that obviously, because it is used to generate the contents
of the tables. :-)

Jochen
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Re: [OSM-talk] Introducing Taginfo

[Jochen Topf]

Hi!

I am using a library called Flexigrid for the dynamic tables that does a lot of
work for me but also comes with certain restrictions. For instance it doesn't
resize itself based on window size or so. Some of the ideas in this thread would
need me to enhance Flexigrid or even get rid of it and find a different 
solution.
I am quite happy with the way the tables are presented in Taginfo and I don't
like huge tables that take forever to load. But I can see that others have
other preferences and that there are reasons in favor of other solutions.

Ya'll feel free to try out other ways of presenting the data and we can then
compare the different solutions and maybe find a better one.

Jochen

On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 01:39:32PM +0200, Sebastian Klein wrote:
> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 13:39:32 +0200
> From: Sebastian Klein 
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Introducing Taginfo
> 
> Jochen Topf wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 06:54:04PM +0200, Sebastian Klein wrote:
>>> I'd prefer if it would not show a vertical scrollbar. This way you 
>>> could  use the full height of your monitor to read the results. Would 
>>> it be too  much to ask for, like, a maximum of 500 entries per page 
>>> instead of  currently 40?
>>
>> I am not sure I quite understand, what you want. You don't want a scrollbar
>> but still see 500 entries on your screen? How big is your monitor? :-)
>
> My browser can scroll as well. I noted the handle at the bottom of the
> table, where you can increase the size of the table area. Basically I'd
> prefer this to be at maximum all the time.
>
>> I just tried with 500 entries and it will become too slow. At least in 
>> Firefox.
>> I get the dreaded warning about a runaway Javascript script.
>>
>> I will add 100 entries as an option which is still reasonably fast.
>
> Thanks! To give you an impression: Wikipedia lists 500 entries per page:
> 
>
> This way you can easily skim the content without the need to click the
> "next" button every 2 seconds.
>
> Another page that is already a little "extreme" because it is so large:
> http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Europe/En/tags.html
>
> Now I noted the magnifying glass at the lower left, where you can search
> the values. It works quite nice (even for the "name" key) so I think I  
> don't really need that many entries per page. :)
>
> Again, great work, the design is pretty slick...
>
>
> Sebastian
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Daniel Herding]

Am 08.10.2010 13:30, schrieb Gleb Smirnoff:
>the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that 
should be

> marked on map.

There is an opposite concept in the Alps, where some mountain passes are 
impassable during the winter months.


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wintersperre (in German)

I translated the most relevant section for you:

== Highlighting winter closure on maps ==
In Switzerland you usually put the closure times next to the pass name 
using Roman numerals (typically in red color). For example, XI-V next to 
the Splügenpass means that the pass is presumably being closed from 
November (XI) to May (V).


But of course it's not only roads that are closed during certain times 
of the year. In Germany, public open air pools are only open in the 
summer, while ice skating halls are only open in the winter. Ice cream 
parlors are also closed in the winter months.


So instead of introducing a new tag for winter roads (and summer roads 
...) I would suggest using existing tags such as date_on, date_off etc. 
for highways (see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access ), and 
opening_hours for sports centres, ice cream parlors etc. Furthermore, 
you should use tags like surface=*, tracktype=* etc. on winter roads.



Daniel


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 14:18, Gleb Smirnoff  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 02:50:22PM +0100, Dave F. wrote:
> D> >    the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should 
> be
> D> > marked on map.
> D> >
> D> >    
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road
> D>
> D> This type of tag is based on subjective opinions which is bad
> D> information to put in OSM.
>
> No. It is not based on subjective opinion. "Winter road" is an official
> status of a road in Russia. It is the way it is marked on other maps.
> The road is officially closed, when it starts to melt. And it is officially
> serviced during winter.
>
> Please refer to wikipedia article. "Winter road" is not a subjective opinion.

There have been discussions on and off about seasonal roads / opening
times. See e.g.:

http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg11274.html

There are more like that, but I couldn't find any with a quick search.

Anyway, since it's an official Winter road I recommend just tagging it
as:

XYZ:winter_road = yes

Wher XYZ is the acronym or name of the Russian classification
agency.

But we probably want some sort of genaral scheme in the long term,
e.g. in some countries there aren't "winter roads" but rather just
roads with different degrees of guaranteed maintenance. Some roads
might e.g. be plowed once a day in the winter, and others once a week.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Gleb Smirnoff]

  Dave,

On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 02:50:22PM +0100, Dave F. wrote:
D> >the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should be
D> > marked on map.
D> >
D> >http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road
D> 
D> This type of tag is based on subjective opinions which is bad 
D> information to put in OSM.

No. It is not based on subjective opinion. "Winter road" is an official
status of a road in Russia. It is the way it is marked on other maps.
The road is officially closed, when it starts to melt. And it is officially
serviced during winter.

Please refer to wikipedia article. "Winter road" is not a subjective opinion.

D> For instance the second photo' is labeled as impassable.

Surely it is passable - you see two vehicles successfully passing it :)
This is just a photo I made, where we could get to. But the road continues,
crossing 5 meter deep swamps and rivers.

What is your version for tagging this road, concerning that it is official
way to a small town and is drivable at high speeds on regular vehicle in
winter?

Some parts of winter road may be passable in summer, some may not. Their
condition in summer is unknown and not guaranteed, their condition in winter
is guaranteed. This is special property of road that should be marked on map.

D> In fact, to me, it seems the first photo' is the more impassable as when 
D> snow is tamped it forms ice.

Slippery doesn't mean impassable.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Dave F.]

 On 08/10/2010 12:30, Gleb Smirnoff wrote:

   Hello,

   the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should be
marked on map.

   http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road


This type of tag is based on subjective opinions which is bad 
information to put in OSM.


For instance the second photo' is labeled as impassable.

Clearly it is not. I could go down it on foot, mountain bike or even a 
suitable motor vehicle despite what is said on the wiki.
In fact, to me, it seems the first photo' is the more impassable as when 
snow is tamped it forms ice.


If they are closed during the summer, tag it as that, since it's a fact. 
Add a from-to date tag if known.


Cheers
Dave F.




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[OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads

[Gleb Smirnoff]

  Hello,

  the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should be
marked on map.

  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road

-- 
Totus tuus, Glebius.

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