[OSM-talk] WG: Emergency Access Points

[Lück , Michael]

Hi all,

To simplfy the rescue of people in isolated areas (like forests). Those points 
are tagged as highways with value emergency_access_points. According to taginfo 
there are about 9000 of these points 
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Demergency_access_point)
I really don't get why those points aren't tagged with the "emergency" key. Can 
anybody help me?

Regards,
Michael
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Re: [OSM-talk] South Pole?

[Ed Loach]

On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 17:59 +0100, Rob wrote:
> even more "polution"
>
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=0.445&lon=-1.674&zoom=10&layers=M

And Jon replied:
> That has a different cause. Someone did upload data putting
> buildings
> here which have since been removed

Except for this way, I think:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/48399061

Ed


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Re: [OSM-talk] WG: Emergency Access Points

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:24:07 +0100
Lück, Michael  wrote:

> 
> Hi all,
> 
> To simplfy the rescue of people in isolated areas (like forests).
> Those points are tagged as highways with value
> emergency_access_points. According to taginfo there are about 9000 of
> these points
> (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Demergency_access_point)
> I really don't get why those points aren't tagged with the
> "emergency" key. Can anybody help me?
> 
> Regards,
> Michael

Because highway came before emergency
and emergency is still being argued over.
Put up a proposal for changing it to emergency if that seems to you
most appropriate

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[OSM-talk] Why bz2?

[Fabio Alessandro Locati]

It seems that all files from planet.openstreetmap.org are in .bz2
format. Why using it instead of xz? xz can compress (usually) more
than bz2 and is way faster to compress/uncompress.(1) I'm sure that
there are other sources that report the same info. Please, consider xz
as a possibility. It would decrease the space needed, the time used to
make the planets and the bandwith use.

Thanks,
Fabio Locati

1) 
http://www.mail-archive.com/infrastruct...@lists.fedoraproject.org/msg01143.html
-- 
Fabio Alessandro Locati

Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1)
Phone: +39-328-3799681
MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why bz2?

[Tom Hughes]

On 23/11/10 11:06, Fabio Alessandro Locati wrote:

> It seems that all files from planet.openstreetmap.org are in .bz2
> format. Why using it instead of xz? xz can compress (usually) more
> than bz2 and is way faster to compress/uncompress.(1) I'm sure that
> there are other sources that report the same info. Please, consider xz
> as a possibility. It would decrease the space needed, the time used to
> make the planets and the bandwith use.

Because bz2 is far more widely supported by tools and libraries that
people might wish to use to read the data.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Database and its contents

[Ed Avis]

Rob Myers  writes:

>>I work with databases every day and I don't understand how the 'database'
>>versus 'contents' distinction is meant to apply to maps and to OSM in
>>particular.
> 
>Imagine a database of names, song titles, photographs, recipes, poems or 
>credit card numbers.

Yes, this makes perfect sense.  What seems nonsensical is taking that and
trying to apply it to the quite different world of geodata, maps and OSM.

>What seems to throw people when we are talking about geodata in a 
>database rather than a collection of poems/photos/songs is the 
>granularity of the contents. But it doesn't really matter whether we 
>regard points, ways, uploads or any other unit as the content of the 
>database. The content of the database is any pieces of data smaller than 
>the entire database.

Anything - so a planet dump of Germany is the 'content'?  Or if that is too
much, what about a smaller extract the size of your neighbourhood?

I don't want to say that just because the boundary is fuzzy the concept must
be unworkable.  Real life and the law deal with fuzzy boundaries all the time.
But to me it seems not merely fuzzy, but nonexistent.

The thing is that an individual piece of data is entirely meaningless by
itself - whereas you can take a photograph out of Wikipedia and use just
that photo, it makes no sense to extract 'a point', 'a way' or even 'a tag'
from OSM.  The only unit that makes sense to use is a partial extract of
the whole thing - complete with ways, points and tags - which then is clearly
a 'database' and not mere 'contents'.  Or if it is 'contents' then equally the
entirety of OSM taken as a whole must be considered 'contents'.

If we wanted to, we could produce an explanatory text which would accompany
the licence terms and explain with examples what the OSM project considers to
be its database and what we think of as contents.  But that doesn't mean the
distinction exists in law or would be understood by a court.  It would just be
on the level of social convention and a request for people to follow the
spirit of the licence as well as the letter.  Which is fine - I'm all in favour
of that - but it makes all the elaborate legal gymnastics seem a bit pointless.

>Any complexity in this is a product of the law not the licence...

I don't think it is a case of the law being complex, but rather of trying to
invent new constructs that don't correspond to the law at all, or indeed to
common sense.  (The example of a collection of recordings or photographs is
fine, but that's not what we are dealing with.)  That is why things become
foggy.

-- 
Ed Avis 


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[OSM-talk] Why tagging of GPX tracks while uploading

[Martin Garbe]

Hello *,

I wonder why there are tags while uploading gpx tracks on the osm 
website. Ok you can use it to tag the tracks but is there any 
application using these tags or are there any planed?
I read about potlatch maybe using these tags but could not find whether 
it is already implemented.

What was the intention of implementing this gpx track tagging feature?

Regards,
Martin



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why bz2?

[Frederik Ramm]

Fabio,

Fabio Alessandro Locati wrote:

It seems that all files from planet.openstreetmap.org are in .bz2
format. Why using it instead of xz? xz can compress (usually) more
than bz2 and is way faster to compress/uncompress.(1) I'm sure that
there are other sources that report the same info. Please, consider xz
as a possibility. It would decrease the space needed, the time used to
make the planets and the bandwith use.


We have introduced a new binary format that compresses far better than 
even xz, so if you're willing to install extra software for 
uncompressing data, go with the new pbf format. Extracts on the 
download.geofabrik.de site are already available in .osm.pbf, and sonner 
or later the full planet file will be, too.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why bz2?

[Fabio Alessandro Locati]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> We have introduced a new binary format that compresses far better than even
> xz, so if you're willing to install extra software for uncompressing data,
> go with the new pbf format. Extracts on the download.geofabrik.de site are
> already available in .osm.pbf, and sonner or later the full planet file will
> be, too.
Awesome, but I haven't found a way to uncompress it.

PS: My question raised because my 4 cores PhenomII computer has
downloaded for more than 11 hours and is uncompressing since 4 hours
ago the planet with full history and haven't finished yet ;)
-- 
Fabio Alessandro Locati

Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1)
Phone: +39-328-3799681
MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com

PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2  A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61

Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why bz2?

[Mike Dupont]

Great work Frederik ! thanks again for your extracts!

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Fabio,
>
>
> Fabio Alessandro Locati wrote:
>
>> It seems that all files from planet.openstreetmap.org are in .bz2
>> format. Why using it instead of xz? xz can compress (usually) more
>> than bz2 and is way faster to compress/uncompress.(1) I'm sure that
>> there are other sources that report the same info. Please, consider xz
>> as a possibility. It would decrease the space needed, the time used to
>> make the planets and the bandwith use.
>>
>
> We have introduced a new binary format that compresses far better than even
> xz, so if you're willing to install extra software for uncompressing data,
> go with the new pbf format. Extracts on the download.geofabrik.de site are
> already available in .osm.pbf, and sonner or later the full planet file will
> be, too.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
>
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>



-- 
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org
flossal.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why bz2?

[Shaun McDonald]

On Tue, November 23, 2010 11:59 am, Fabio Alessandro Locati wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Frederik Ramm 
> wrote:
>> We have introduced a new binary format that compresses far better than
>> even
>> xz, so if you're willing to install extra software for uncompressing
>> data,
>> go with the new pbf format. Extracts on the download.geofabrik.de site
>> are
>> already available in .osm.pbf, and sonner or later the full planet file
>> will
>> be, too.
> Awesome, but I haven't found a way to uncompress it.
>
> PS: My question raised because my 4 cores PhenomII computer has
> downloaded for more than 11 hours and is uncompressing since 4 hours
> ago the planet with full history and haven't finished yet ;)

Generally speaking you won't want to uncompress the file to disk directly.
Rather you will want to pipe the uncompressed output to another program to
do the processing. This will be a lot faster since you are reading and
writing to/from disk a lot less data and discarding any data that you
don't need.

Shaun



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Database and its contents

[80n]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Grant Slater
wrote:

> On 23 November 2010 13:23, Grant Slater 
> wrote:
> > On 23 November 2010 13:04, Ed Avis  wrote:
> >>
> >> As always, the standard reality check applies: if you believe that maps
> or the
> >> data they represent are not covered by copyright, please start
> large-scale
> >> photocopying of some commercial maps, or copying the information from
> them into
> >> another format that you then publish.
> >>
> >
> > Here is some data:
> >
> >  > changeset="6058195" user="Walter Schlögl" uid="78656" visible="true"
> > timestamp="2010-10-16T14:40:13Z">
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> > The position is a fact, name is a fact, cuisine they serve is a fact,
> > along with the other details.
>

If you think the position of this restaurant is a fact then you really need
to watch the Horizon documentary where Alan Davis tries to measure the
length of a piece of string: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00574dv


> Facts cannot be copyright. Creative Commons licences are not designed
> > for factual information.
>
>
> > Creativity is used in the above data.
>
> Typo, creativity is *NOT* used in the above data.
>
> >Whereas on the rendered map
> > http://tile.osm.org/18/130828/87084.png I would argue that creativity
> > has been used to choose the icon, position the text/icon and create
> > the "halo" around the text/icon, which is all contained in the mapnik
> > stylesheet.
> >
> > Regards
> >  Grant
> >
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why bz2?

[Daniel van Gerpen]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:59:54 +0100
Fabio Alessandro Locati  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Frederik Ramm 
> wrote:
> > We have introduced a new binary format that compresses far better
> > than even xz, so if you're willing to install extra software for
> > uncompressing data, go with the new pbf format. Extracts on the
> > download.geofabrik.de site are already available in .osm.pbf, and
> > sonner or later the full planet file will be, too.
> Awesome, but I haven't found a way to uncompress it.
> 
> PS: My question raised because my 4 cores PhenomII computer has
> downloaded for more than 11 hours and is uncompressing since 4 hours
> ago the planet with full history and haven't finished yet ;)

If you have multiple cores, pbzip2 might be of interest:

  http://compression.ca/pbzip2/

Daniel

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Database and its contents

[Ed Avis]

Emilie Laffray  writes:

>As always, the standard reality check applies: if you believe that maps or the
>data they represent are not covered by copyright, please start large-scale
>photocopying of some commercial maps, or copying the information from them into
>another format that you then publish.
> 
>See that's where you are confusing maps representation and the underlying
>data. If I was to start a large scale photocopying of some commercial maps, I
>would infringe copyrights of the printed map. This doesn't infringe on any
>possible underlying rights since you are stopping at the map itself. This
>doesn't imply anything on the underlying data.

See the second part - 'or copying the information from them'.

Copying the underlying data is one of the things that we do in OSM.  We trace
over other maps, copying only the underlying facts (this street is there, and
it has this name) and not the representation.

When can we not do this?  When the map is under copyright!  Have a look at
 which has a long list
of old maps which are or are not okay for copying into OSM.  Most of them date
from long before any database right was introduced, so if the data itself is
not covered by copyright, we should be able to trace from them with impunity!

Again, reality doesn't agree with the assertion that copyright doesn't apply.
Even though you are dealing only with 'data' or 'facts' and not merely
photocopying the representation of them, you are still infringing copyright,
and there have been recent court cases backing that up.
(In the UK, for example, Ordnance Survey versus AA - copying of factual
information from OS maps triggered a copyright action, which succeeded.)

I agree with your point that database right exists and we need to license it.
I wanted to address the particular point, often asserted here, that map
information is somehow exempt from copyright so we cannot use copyright to
protect it.  That's just not backed up by the real world.

>Since we are here, can I ask you two questions on pure licensing? The answer
>needs to be short else, it will be drowned in words to hide the true belief you
>have.1) In which camp are you?2) Do you believe that CC-BY-SA would protect
>the project legally?

Yes, I believe it is a simple licence based on well-understood law which
provides an effective way to deal with violations.

More than that, it has proved effective in practice; big organizations such as
Microsoft or MapQuest use our data respecting its terms; and no map vendor
would ever take the risk of contaminating their product with licence-infringing
data.

For the first question, I don't really mind as long as the project uses a free
and open and licence which is workable in practice.  I am reluctant to accept
the ODbL as truly free and open because of the contract law provisions; to me
it resembles more an EULA which attempts to limit through contract restrictions
the rights which you would otherwise have.  I believe a licence should be a
pure grant of additional permissions.  (These are also easier to enforce, since
the other party cannot argue that the licence 'does not apply' - if it doesn't
apply, then they do not have any rights under it.)

I also believe that the ODbL/DbCL combination is unclear and cumbersome in
practice, attempting to shoehorn a map into a distinction between 'database'
and 'contents' which makes little sense, among other issues which tend to
cause lots of diverging interpretations on this list.

I used to support share-alike terms but they seem to cause trouble as people
think of loopholes (real or imagined) and add more and more legalese.  From
a practical point of view I think public domain or attribution-only would be
superior for this reason.  The status quo of CC-BY-SA is working well but it
is hard to stick to the rule "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

-- 
Ed Avis 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Why bz2?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 11/23/10 12:59, Fabio Alessandro Locati wrote:

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:52 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

We have introduced a new binary format that compresses far better than even
xz, so if you're willing to install extra software for uncompressing data,
go with the new pbf format. Extracts on the download.geofabrik.de site are
already available in .osm.pbf, and sonner or later the full planet file will
be, too.



Awesome, but I haven't found a way to uncompress it.


Osmosis or pbf2osm are the obvious choices. You'll reap even greater 
benefits if you're using software that reads pbf directly, e.g. 
osm2pgsql. as you'll save xml parsing time.



PS: My question raised because my 4 cores PhenomII computer has
downloaded for more than 11 hours and is uncompressing since 4 hours
ago the planet with full history and haven't finished yet ;)


You might save time decompressing bzip2 if you use the 7zip program 
(which has a multithreading bz2 implementation).


Bye
Frederik

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[OSM-talk] 1 billionth node

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

We apparently hit the 1 billionth node milestone last Monday (or the
node with ID 10 if the previous statement is not accurate):
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/10

The node is, unsurprisingly, part of some import in Romania. Make of
that what you will. :-D

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[OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[Richard Weait]

http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing

http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima

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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

Never mind Steve Coast joining Microsoft (though I would guess several
people would have apoplexy over a husband and a wife working for rival
mapping companies), but the anticipated announcement that Microsoft
will let OpenStreetMappers trace from their imagery is a much more
welcome news to me! :-D



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:06 AM, Richard Weait  wrote:
> http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing
>
> http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Mike N.]

Subject: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect 
ofBing Mobile


"Microsoft is donating access to it's global orthorectified aerial imagery 
to help OpenStreetMappers make the map even better than it already is."


 WOO HOO!  Does anyone have the magic JOSM string for this?



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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Florian Heer]

--- Mike N.  schrieb am Di, 23.11.2010:

>  WOO HOO!  Does anyone have the magic JOSM string for
> this?

This is very exciting news. But I could not find any way to make use of that at 
the moment. So I guess this will be possible in the future as in opposed to now?

Regards, Florian Heer 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Jonathan Bennett]

On 23/11/2010 17:41, Florian Heer wrote:
This is very exciting news. But I could not find any way to make use 
of that at the moment. So I guess this will be possible in the future 
as in opposed to now?

The announcement was made less than an hour ago -- be patient!

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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Maarten Deen]

On 23-11-2010 18:52, Jonathan Bennett wrote:

On 23/11/2010 17:41, Florian Heer wrote:

This is very exciting news. But I could not find any way to make use
of that at the moment. So I guess this will be possible in the future
as in opposed to now?

The announcement was made less than an hour ago -- be patient!


It really does feel like hell is going to freeze over.

Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[simon]

> http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing
>

Congratulations Steve.

This is great news. Bing (despite the god-awful name) are actually doing
some really cool stuff in the mapping/geodata field.

With an 'inside' man who appreciates the value of open-data and crowd
sourcing this could be a huge win for free map data.
Simon.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Martijn van Exel]

There would be something you could do with
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/SlippyMap#Custom_tile_URLS
and
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb259689.aspx
probably.

Martijn van Exel +++ m...@rtijn.org
laziness – impatience – hubris
http://schaaltreinen.nl | http://martijnvanexel.nl |
http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
twitter / skype: mvexel
flickr: rhodes


On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:41 PM, Florian Heer wrote:

> --- Mike N.  schrieb am Di, 23.11.2010:
>
> >  WOO HOO!  Does anyone have the magic JOSM string for
> > this?
>
> This is very exciting news. But I could not find any way to make use of
> that at the moment. So I guess this will be possible in the future as in
> opposed to now?
>
> Regards, Florian Heer
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Grant Slater]

On 23 November 2010 17:41, Florian Heer  wrote:
>
> This is very exciting news. But I could not find any way to make use of that 
> at the moment. So I guess this will be possible in the future as in opposed 
> to now?
>

Same answer for the Potlatch...
http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/1602/how-can-i-use-microsofts-aerial-imagery-in-potlatch

/ Grant

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Database and its contents

[Francis Davey]

On 23 November 2010 17:08, Ed Avis  wrote:
>
> Thanks.  My followup question - which is not quite so much a question of pure
> fact, and addressed not to you but to the list in general - is that if 
> database
> copyright applies wherever database right does, why not use copyright alone?

Because it is much harder for a database to attract copyright
protection than sui generis protection - especially for "data
collectors" like OSMF.

Database copyright arises when the database is the author's "own
intellectual creation". That means that some design or creativity has
to have gone into the database - it can't simply be an assemblage of
facts.

Example: the football fixtures list for the English premier league
require lots of thought (so the league convinced a judge) to design,
so the collection of items of information of the form Arsenal v
Chelsea, Tuesday 10pm at Emirates, has database copyright (and because
the league produce it for their own purposes they don't get sui
generis protection).

Database right arises when there is a "substantial investment". It
focuses on work not creativity. Lots of work in making a database
won't get you copyright but may get you database right.

It is much more likely that OSMF attracts database right than database
copyright.

>
> If I've misunderstood what 'database copyright' means, and it's not as strong
> as ordinary copyright, please correct me.

It may depend on what you mean by "not as strong as". They are just
different things. Its best not to think of them in the same way.
Although quite a few provisions are imported from copyright, there's a
lot that is different. For example you infringe copyright by doing one
of a list of things (copying etc) whereas you infringe database right
by extraction or reutlisation (of a substantial part...).

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Richard Fairhurst]

Grant Slater wrote:
> Same answer for the Potlatch...
> http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/1602/how-can-i-use-microsofts-aerial-imagery-in-potlatch

Potlatch 2 can now, as of five minutes ago, display Bing-format tiles. We're
waiting for the official "start tracing" announcement, and any provisos
(only through this API, only with this copyright message, only on Tuesdays
etc. etc.), before making it live.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Markus Lindholm]

Anyone read the fine print of the license under which M$ provides the imagery?

/Markus

On 23 November 2010 19:43, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
>
> Grant Slater wrote:
>> Same answer for the Potlatch...
>> http://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/1602/how-can-i-use-microsofts-aerial-imagery-in-potlatch
>
> Potlatch 2 can now, as of five minutes ago, display Bing-format tiles. We're
> waiting for the official "start tracing" announcement, and any provisos
> (only through this API, only with this copyright message, only on Tuesdays
> etc. etc.), before making it live.
>
> cheers
> Richard
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Steve-Coast-Joins-Microsoft-as-Principle-Architect-of-Bing-Mobile-tp5767431p5767827.html
> Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Richard Fairhurst]

Markus Lindholm wrote:
> Anyone read the fine print of the license under which M$ provides the
> imagery?

It hasn't been released yet. That's why, although we already have Potlatch 2
support coded, it hasn't been deployed on any of the P2 instances (and I
believe the same is true for the JOSM slippy-map plugin). Let's wait and see
what the licence is.

(By the way, it's not M$ any more - you're thinking of GOOGL£...)

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Richard Weait]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
>
> (By the way, it's not M$ any more - you're thinking of GOOGL£...)

You mean the GOOGL£5k that they generously donated years ago for our DB server?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect ofBing Mobile

[Florian Heer]

Am 23.11.2010 18:56, schrieb Maarten Deen:

On 23-11-2010 18:52, Jonathan Bennett wrote:

On 23/11/2010 17:41, Florian Heer wrote:

This is very exciting news. But I could not find any way to make use
of that at the moment. So I guess this will be possible in the future
as in opposed to now?

The announcement was made less than an hour ago -- be patient!


It really does feel like hell is going to freeze over.



Yes, I'm already shivering of anticipation.

Regards, Florian

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Database and its contents

[80n]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Francis Davey  wrote:

> On 23 November 2010 17:08, Ed Avis  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks.  My followup question - which is not quite so much a question of
> pure
> > fact, and addressed not to you but to the list in general - is that if
> database
> > copyright applies wherever database right does, why not use copyright
> alone?
>
> Because it is much harder for a database to attract copyright
> protection than sui generis protection - especially for "data
> collectors" like OSMF.
>
> Database copyright arises when the database is the author's "own
> intellectual creation". That means that some design or creativity has
> to have gone into the database - it can't simply be an assemblage of
> facts.
>
> Example: the football fixtures list for the English premier league
> require lots of thought (so the league convinced a judge) to design,
> so the collection of items of information of the form Arsenal v
> Chelsea, Tuesday 10pm at Emirates, has database copyright (and because
> the league produce it for their own purposes they don't get sui
> generis protection).
>
> Database right arises when there is a "substantial investment". It
> focuses on work not creativity. Lots of work in making a database
> won't get you copyright but may get you database right.
>
> It is much more likely that OSMF attracts database right than database
> copyright.
>

To be precise a database right is earned when there is a "substantial
investment in obtaining, verifying or presenting" the contents of the
database.  Has the OSMF done enough to earn that right?  Most obtaining has
been done by contributors who are not members of OSMF and have no connection
with OSMF. As far as I know OSMF has no verification function and certainly
doesn't make a substantial investment in verification.  As for presenting
they host a server running Mapnik and provide a planet dump and some APIs.
Their only investment is the cost of the hardware[1].

In much of the database rights literature there is often a reference to the
$ value spent to create the database in question.  Presumably this is
relevant to whether the right has been earned based on a substantial
investment.  How does OSMF measure up on this, having spent just a few
thousand dollars on hardware?

80n

[1] http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Finances



>
> >
> > If I've misunderstood what 'database copyright' means, and it's not as
> strong
> > as ordinary copyright, please correct me.
>
> It may depend on what you mean by "not as strong as". They are just
> different things. Its best not to think of them in the same way.
> Although quite a few provisions are imported from copyright, there's a
> lot that is different. For example you infringe copyright by doing one
> of a list of things (copying etc) whereas you infringe database right
> by extraction or reutlisation (of a substantial part...).
>
> --
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>
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[OSM-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference

[Steve Citron-Pousty]

Greetings OSM:
deCarta, Mapquest, Bing, and WeoGeo are really excited about where OSM is going 
- we would like to have an unconference on how mapping Corps can help OSM - 
what do people think? There should be a way we can work together to create 
value for everyone. We have more ideas or details that we can provide about how 
we MIGHT want to do this but we would really like to get this to be a community 
affair.

Thanks
Steve, Hurricane, Steve, and James 




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Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference

[Martijn van Exel]

I suggest to make it a ménage à trois and include the government perspective: 
USGS, EuroGeographics, etc. Also, the question of how can we help improve your 
product and operation is valid in all directions, not only --> OSM.

Martijn van Exel +++ m...@rtijn.org
laziness – impatience – hubris
http://schaaltreinen.nl | http://martijnvanexel.nl | http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
twitter / skype: mvexel
flickr: rhodes

On Nov 23, 2010, at 10:45 PM, "Steve Citron-Pousty"  
wrote:

> 
> Greetings OSM:
> deCarta, Mapquest, Bing, and WeoGeo are really excited about where OSM is 
> going - we would like to have an unconference on how mapping Corps can help 
> OSM - what do people think? There should be a way we can work together to 
> create value for everyone. We have more ideas or details that we can provide 
> about how we MIGHT want to do this but we would really like to get this to be 
> a community affair.
> 
> Thanks
> Steve, Hurricane, Steve, and James 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Suggestion for an Unconference

[Ben Last]

Sounds interesting :)
b

On 24 November 2010 05:45, Steve Citron-Pousty wrote:

>
> Greetings OSM:
> deCarta, Mapquest, Bing, and WeoGeo are really excited about where OSM is
> going - we would like to have an unconference on how mapping Corps can help
> OSM - what do people think? There should be a way we can work together to
> create value for everyone. We have more ideas or details that we can provide
> about how we MIGHT want to do this but we would really like to get this to
> be a community affair.
>
> Thanks
> Steve, Hurricane, Steve, and James
>
> ___
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>



-- 
Ben Last
Development Manager
nearmap.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[Chris Browet]

On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 18:06, Richard Weait  wrote:

> http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing
>
> http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima
>
> Do we take bets on the time before the first article/blog comes out saying
that OSM belongs to Microsoft ;-)
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[OSM-talk] wiki list of bing imagery coverage (Re: Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile)

[maning sambale]

I started the list:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing/Coverage

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Chris Browet  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 18:06, Richard Weait  wrote:
>>
>> http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing
>>
>> http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima
>>
> Do we take bets on the time before the first article/blog comes out saying
> that OSM belongs to Microsoft ;-)
>
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>



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cheers,
maning
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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[David Fawcett]

Actually, that already happened a few months ago when NPR's Future Tense did a 
story about the new OSM tiles for Bing.



On Nov 23, 2010, at 6:42 PM, Chris Browet  wrote:

> 
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 18:06, Richard Weait  wrote:
> http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing
> 
> http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima
> 
> Do we take bets on the time before the first article/blog comes out saying 
> that OSM belongs to Microsoft ;-)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Tue, 2010-11-23 at 12:06 -0500, Richard Weait wrote:
> http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing
> 
> http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima

I am a little confused - who is SteveC? or are there two of them?


-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves


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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[David Murn]

On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 08:13 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-11-23 at 12:06 -0500, Richard Weait wrote:
> > http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing
> > 
> > http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima
> 
> I am a little confused - who is SteveC? or are there two of them?
> 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 13:53 +1100, David Murn wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 08:13 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-11-23 at 12:06 -0500, Richard Weait wrote:
> > >
> http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing
> > > 
> > >
> http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima
> > 
> > I am a little confused - who is SteveC? or are there two of them?
> > 
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Steve
> 
> 

then who is the older bearded guy? Or is he a fake?
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves


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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[maning sambale]

Steve Chilton?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Steve8

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves  wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 13:53 +1100, David Murn wrote:
>> On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 08:13 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
>> > On Tue, 2010-11-23 at 12:06 -0500, Richard Weait wrote:
>> > >
>> http://opengeodata.org/openstreetmap-founder-steve-coast-joins-bing
>> > >
>> > >
>> http://blog.stevecoast.com/im-working-at-microsoft-and-were-donating-ima
>> >
>> > I am a little confused - who is SteveC? or are there two of them?
>> >
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Steve
>>
>>
>
> then who is the older bearded guy? Or is he a fake?
> --
> regards
> Kenneth Gonsalves
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 11/24/10 04:41, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:

then who is the older bearded guy? Or is he a fake?


The older bearded guy hasn't yet joined Microsoft as far as I'm aware.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 08:12 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> 
> On 11/24/10 04:41, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> > then who is the older bearded guy? Or is he a fake?
> 
> The older bearded guy hasn't yet joined Microsoft as far as I'm
> aware. 

now I have sorted it out - there are two of them. Only SteveC sometimes
comes across as cantankerous, so I pictured him a a Stallman like figure
with wrinkles and beard - and hence got confused.
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves


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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of Bing Mobile

[Steve Chilton]

Thanks for that. I will try to live up to your image!

The other SteveC

From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf 
Of Kenneth Gonsalves [law...@au-kbc.org]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:21 AM
To: Frederik Ramm
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Steve Coast Joins Microsoft as Principle Architect of 
Bing Mobile

On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 08:12 +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> On 11/24/10 04:41, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> > then who is the older bearded guy? Or is he a fake?
>
> The older bearded guy hasn't yet joined Microsoft as far as I'm
> aware.

now I have sorted it out - there are two of them. Only SteveC sometimes
comes across as cantankerous, so I pictured him a a Stallman like figure
with wrinkles and beard - and hence got confused.
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves


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