Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Clifford Snow]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Andrew Wiseman  wrote:

> People who want to edit a map are generally nice people.


+1


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[OSM-talk] weeklyOSM 237

[Manfred A. Reiter]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 237, is now available online in
English, giving as always a summary of all things happening in the
openstreetmap world: http://www.weeklyosm.eu

Enjoy!

-- 
## Manfred Reiter - -
## www.weeklyOSM.eu
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Andrew Wiseman]

Maybe this is an obvious one, but why not just write the user who made the
error a nice note? One of my first edits was an error, and somebody (Jaakko
Helleranta from HOT, it turns out) wrote me a nice note, something like
"hey, thanks for editing, I notice you did X but probably should have done
Y, and here's why" with links and whatnot. I appreciated it. I've done that
since a few times when I noticed a person making repeated errors and always
got nice responses back. It might take a minute but it's well worth it,
both to build community and to save time in the long run with better data
and fewer errors that need fixing.

People who want to edit a map are generally nice people.

Andrew

On Tuesday, February 10, 2015, colliar  wrote:

> Hey
>
> Maybe, it is me only to slow in reverting and solving these mistakes or
> even the bugs I incounter in JOSM while working but I am definitely feed
> up with talking about the same things over and over again and I am
> probably not even polite enough to do the job of communicating.
>
> So what to do ? Silently reverting is not an option. Always getting DWG
> involved neither.
>
> I am fed up with:
> * iD making it way to easy to delete objects but not offering an option
> to undelete them (is there any history information at all ?)
> * simply combining ways and merge nodes without any validation or
> warning about conflicts in tags or problems with relations
> * not telling the user about the importance of all tags, even unknown to
> the software and allowing user to communicate with user of the last
> change of the object
>
> Any plans of supporting lanes-tagging-system ? Otherwise there will be
> even more complains in the future.
>
> Is there anyone taking care of mistake made by iD users and documenting
> the most common ones to either better explain how to avoid them and/or
> fix the software ?
>
> As iD is supposed to be the newbie editor all mistakes will rather turn
> them down than encourage them.
>
> So far, I try to keep calm and rather save my changes and upload them
> later after solving conflicts instead of starting an edit war by
> reverting or uploading older versions but I spend more time with
> communication and investigating problems than actually mapping and
> resolving notes and I still have quite some gpx tracks and photos from
> over a year ago to map.
>
> How about simply denying some changes with iD like combining ways ?
>
> Cheers colliar
>


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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Tom MacWright]

We also aimed to have no bugs and like every software project before us,
have failed to achieve that goal.

The uproar about iD is the same as the uproar about the map style, website,
user groups, code of conduct, Steve Coast, the board, imports, license
change, attribution, and practically everything else about OpenStreetMap.
It's not anti-iD bias, of course. It's anti-everything bias.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Tom MacWright  wrote:
>
>> Ever since 2012, in the second commit ever, "Not breaking other people's
>> data" has been one of the three clearly stated public design goals of iD.
>>
>
> This goal does not appear to have been carried out.
>
> The iD project comes off as tone deaf to breaking data concerns: Look at
> the uproar over issues of "breaking data".  Look at the core team response,
> which is mostly defensive posturing, not oriented to solutions.
>
> Why has iD taken such a beating on the mailing list "breaking data"
> issues?  I don't think it's just anti-iD bias.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Tom MacWright  wrote:

> Ever since 2012, in the second commit ever, "Not breaking other people's
> data" has been one of the three clearly stated public design goals of iD.
>

This goal does not appear to have been carried out.

The iD project comes off as tone deaf to breaking data concerns: Look at
the uproar over issues of "breaking data".  Look at the core team response,
which is mostly defensive posturing, not oriented to solutions.

Why has iD taken such a beating on the mailing list "breaking data"
issues?  I don't think it's just anti-iD bias.
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Tom MacWright]

Ever since 2012, in the second commit ever, "Not breaking other people's
data" has been one of the three clearly stated public design goals of iD.

https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/commit/22fab3eb1d259fe73d3e1498df1ca0e07c613f87

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Jo  wrote:

> We have been saying this from the very beginning, so it should have been
> taken into account right from the very start of development of iD.
>
> Don't break other contributor's data should have been among the initial
> design goals. Don't bother the user with dialogs when they're about to
> break something should not be a design goal at all.
>
> Odd that such an important item would have to be added in retrospect.
> Worse, it's absurd.
>
> Polyglot
>
> 2015-02-11 21:15 GMT+01:00 Mike N :
>
>> On 2/11/2015 2:49 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
>>
>>> Read through the issue tracker: It's clear that issues reported are
>>> pushed back on by the core iD developers.  It's very "tightly held".
>>>
>>
>>  I disagree (not a developer here).  The interesting thing that came out
>> of this discussion is the realization that none of the key problems that
>> people are seeing have an outstanding pull request.   If the pull request
>> is rejected, then you have a point.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Jo]

We have been saying this from the very beginning, so it should have been
taken into account right from the very start of development of iD.

Don't break other contributor's data should have been among the initial
design goals. Don't bother the user with dialogs when they're about to
break something should not be a design goal at all.

Odd that such an important item would have to be added in retrospect.
Worse, it's absurd.

Polyglot

2015-02-11 21:15 GMT+01:00 Mike N :

> On 2/11/2015 2:49 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
>
>> Read through the issue tracker: It's clear that issues reported are
>> pushed back on by the core iD developers.  It's very "tightly held".
>>
>
>  I disagree (not a developer here).  The interesting thing that came out
> of this discussion is the realization that none of the key problems that
> people are seeing have an outstanding pull request.   If the pull request
> is rejected, then you have a point.
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Mike N]

On 2/11/2015 2:49 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

Read through the issue tracker: It's clear that issues reported are
pushed back on by the core iD developers.  It's very "tightly held".


 I disagree (not a developer here).  The interesting thing that came 
out of this discussion is the realization that none of the key problems 
that people are seeing have an outstanding pull request.   If the pull 
request is rejected, then you have a point.



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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Tom MacWright]

There's no magic to working on iD: 77 people of varying skill levels have
done it. It takes time. If this is important to you, I'd suggest you invest
that time rather than ordering other people to.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Tom MacWright  wrote:
>
>> That ticket doesn't have a difference of opinion: it has a core developer
>> of iD offering to buy a cake for whoever contributes a fix. Nobody has
>> contributed a fix: one would be accepted if it was contributed. Plus, we'd
>> give that person a cake.
>>
>
> There are certain tasks where challenging people to supply a patch is
> almost like saying "no" softly.
> This one feels like a core developer task, not a good candidate for a
> first timer patch yummy cake not withstanding.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Tom MacWright  wrote:

> That ticket doesn't have a difference of opinion: it has a core developer
> of iD offering to buy a cake for whoever contributes a fix. Nobody has
> contributed a fix: one would be accepted if it was contributed. Plus, we'd
> give that person a cake.
>

There are certain tasks where challenging people to supply a patch is
almost like saying "no" softly.
This one feels like a core developer task, not a good candidate for a first
timer patch yummy cake not withstanding.
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Tom MacWright  wrote:

> How is an open source project that was open source on day one, was
> publicly communicated from day one, heavily explained in time-consuming
> technical blog posts, has 77 contributors, and has accepted hundreds of
> pull requests "tightly held."
>

Read through the issue tracker: It's clear that issues reported are pushed
back on by the core iD developers.  It's very "tightly held".
In terms of design ideas, it's particularly "tightly held" compared to
comparable projects.  *Saying it's not tight just does not match the
record.*

Beyond the tight control, iD is "opinionated" software.  *That's more of an
observation than a judgement by the way. * There's a particular focus on
fulfillment of iD's funding mission to be an entry level editor, pulling
"new mappers" into OSM.  That results in a particular aversion to
introducing any sort of complexity, even when the underlying editing is
complex.  I think that's not really working: iD instead leads new users
down roads and into editing jobs they can't correctly complete.  iD could,
but does not, help users identify interesting and fulfilling editing at the
level of the user.  iD is helping to breed and support a class of mapper
who is not integrated with, or in contact with, other similarly situated
contributors.  It's really a missed opportunity.

A number of specific issues illustrate this point: among them the delete
issue, and the relation deletion issue.  But it's deeper than those marquee
subjects.  There's clearly some pretty deep differences in focus between iD
developers focusing on maximizing raw input into the system, and "cleanup"
style editors who are on the receiving end of those changes.

--

In short: pushing patches to the iD tracker won't help.
Making "time consuming technical blog posts" won't help if goals are out of
alignment.
Cleanup-oriented editors have been unhappy with iD for a long time: and
don't seem to feel respected by the iD core developers.
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Serge Wroclawski]

Folks,

This post doesn't represent the DWG in any way, but as someone who
does DWG work, and closely monitors his local area, I think I have a
bit of expertise in this area.

In my experience, iD users do not make any more mistakes than any
other editor in relative terms. In other words- if 80% of edits are
done in iD- then we should see 80% of mistakes by iD users. In my
experience, the kinds of editor errors that are being discussed
(deletion of objects, etc.) are not happening in a greater relative
quantity by iD users than any other editor- and for the kinds of
issues that the DWG gets involved in, eg edit wars and problematic
imports, JOSM users are by far the biggest problems.

The fact is that the amount of data issues we have with OSM users is
decreasing, not increasing. iD's tagging support makes things
generally better for the beginner and intermediate user.

We do have problems the things like addresses, splitting of features
and especially relations- but I'd argue that these are not the
editor's problems.

Addresses in OSM are confusing because we have so many different ways
to represent addresses (as attributes of a node, as attributes of a
building, as a raw node inside a building, as a relation, as an
associatedStreet, etc.), and relations are very complicated.

Multipolygon could be replaced with something like "area" as proposed
by Jochen, but until that happens, we're stuck with a very complex
data representation that's a pain to understand and an even bigger
pain to work with.

This is fundamental to the data model itself, and not the editor.

I'm not an iD user myself, and I do think that the developer/community
communication could be improved, but it's been a large net positive
for our project.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] "How We Map"

[Robert Banick]

Agreed with all of the above, this is a great, concise, and friendly piece. I 
would love for this to be accessible not just for new signees but available for 
old timers looking for a nice refresher


—
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On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ed Loach  wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2015 17:53, "Michael Kugelmann"  wrote:
>>
>> Am 11.02.2015 um 17:51 schrieb Mikel Maron:
>>>
>>> Already a great piece.
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>> As a suggestion for improvement:
>> I'd love to have a clear statment in the way that somebody new in the
> project should at least inform himself about practice/methods and tagging
> conventions used since years before inventing the wheel again.
> Perhaps that could be part of a Getting Started page or a How To Map page
> rather than the How We Map page which I think looks pretty good.
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Tom MacWright]

That ticket doesn't have a difference of opinion: it has a core developer
of iD offering to buy a cake for whoever contributes a fix. Nobody has
contributed a fix: one would be accepted if it was contributed. Plus, we'd
give that person a cake.

That isn't a difference of opinion: there's no opposition. There's
encouragement and an offer of reward for help. There's limited time "the
core developers" have to work on iD, and they accept snark and hatred when
they do.

So no, that isn't a difference of opinion. It's a place where we need help
and aren't getting it. Threads like this don't help.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Michael Reichert  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am 2015-02-11 um 17:25 schrieb Tom MacWright:
> >> Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a
> >> discussion on on the "talk" mailing list is going to be able to do here.
> >
> >
> > This. Help with development or give productive feedback on the issue
> > tracker. FUD around editors has been discussed to death and it's clear
> that
> > writing more emails won't do anything.
>
> The relation issue has been reported almost two years ago.
>
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/1461
>
> This fact makes me to suggest everyone, every newbie, not to use iD.
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.de/pipermail/stuttgart/2015-February/000526.html
> (in German)
>
> From my point of view, there is huge difference in opinion between iD
> developers and the mappers who clean up after an iD mapper has damaged
> something. There are some cases where the "Don't confuse the user by
> popup warnings" (it seems that this is the development goal of iD) does
> not work. Relations are an example.
>
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/blob/master/README.md says:
> > It lets you do the most basic tasks while not breaking other people's
> > data.
>
> I can just laugh out loudly.
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] "How We Map"

[Ed Loach]

On 11 Feb 2015 17:53, "Michael Kugelmann"  wrote:
>
> Am 11.02.2015 um 17:51 schrieb Mikel Maron:
>>
>> Already a great piece.
>
> +1
>
>
> As a suggestion for improvement:
> I'd love to have a clear statment in the way that somebody new in the
project should at least inform himself about practice/methods and tagging
conventions used since years before inventing the wheel again.

Perhaps that could be part of a Getting Started page or a How To Map page
rather than the How We Map page which I think looks pretty good.

Ed
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Re: [OSM-talk] "How We Map"

[Michael Kugelmann]

Am 11.02.2015 um 17:51 schrieb Mikel Maron:

Already a great piece.

+1


As a suggestion for improvement:
I'd love to have a clear statment in the way that somebody new in the 
project should at least inform himself about practice/methods and 
tagging conventions used since years before inventing the wheel again. 
That is something which buged me some times within the last months...
=> first have a detailled look on how the community is doeing something 
since years and then afterwards suggest/discuss a possible change.



Cheers,
Michael.


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Re: [OSM-talk] "How We Map"

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 2015-02-11 um 17:51 schrieb Mikel Maron:
> Already a great piece. This should go out to all new signups.

I agree, too. It is short enough to be shown at the signup page.

Best regards

Michael


-- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt.
I prefer GPG encryption of emails.



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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 2015-02-11 um 17:25 schrieb Tom MacWright:
>> Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a
>> discussion on on the "talk" mailing list is going to be able to do here.
> 
> 
> This. Help with development or give productive feedback on the issue
> tracker. FUD around editors has been discussed to death and it's clear that
> writing more emails won't do anything.

The relation issue has been reported almost two years ago.

https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/1461

This fact makes me to suggest everyone, every newbie, not to use iD.
https://lists.openstreetmap.de/pipermail/stuttgart/2015-February/000526.html
(in German)

From my point of view, there is huge difference in opinion between iD
developers and the mappers who clean up after an iD mapper has damaged
something. There are some cases where the "Don't confuse the user by
popup warnings" (it seems that this is the development goal of iD) does
not work. Relations are an example.

https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/blob/master/README.md says:
> It lets you do the most basic tasks while not breaking other people's
> data.

I can just laugh out loudly.

Best regards

Michael




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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[malenki]

Jo Walsh wrote:

>On the one hand I'm sorry to hear that communicating and fixing is a
>distraction from mapping for you,

I understand how he feels:
When I happen to correct a lot of stupid errors sometimes I feel like
there are a lot of stupid mappers. :)

>on the other you're starting to sound like a candidate member of the
>DWG ;) Maybe consider it, validating an activity you're pursuing
>anyway...

+1
(but not for me, thank you all the same (: )


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[OSM-talk] Update on State of the Map US

[Martijn van Exel]

Hey all,

(I just sent this note to talk-us but I am hoping it will be useful for
folks outside the US as well!)

We've been pretty busy organizing the upcoming State of the Map US
conference. Time for an update!

Firstly, as of today the call for sessions is open. Please do submit your
ideas for a talk, a lightning talk, or a different type of session. We
welcome any and all topics related to OSM: your local community initiative,
interesting uses and applications of OSM, your teaching project, a tech or
cartographic deep dive...Too many possibilities to list! Head over to
http://stateofthemap.us/ to submit your proposal.

Also, a reminder that we're running a pretty great scholarship program. If
you belong at State of the Map US but money is an issue, there's help.
Applications for the scholarship program are open for a little while
longer, again, head over to http://stateofthemap.us/ to learn more and
apply.

Speaking of $. We realize NYC can be an expensive place, so we've made a
big effort to find affordable accommodations. Prices start at $45 a night
but rooms / beds are limited, so head over to http://stateofthemap.us/ and
book soon.

I was not going to make this into a long email but one more thing..:
registration is open  for early bird tickets which are $90 only, this will
not last long and considering what you'll get for this money it's a total
bargain :) You know where to go by now!

Let me know if you have any questions or ideas about SOTM US, and I hope to
see many of you June 6-8 in NYC.

-- 
Martijn van Exel
skype: mvexel
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Re: [OSM-talk] "How We Map"

[Mikel Maron]

Already a great piece. This should go out to all new signups.



> On Feb 10, 2015, at 4:19 AM, Jo Walsh  wrote:
> 
> dear all,
> 
> I wish to float this draft page for discussion and possibly future
> approval!
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/How_We_Map
> 
> The page is a summary of a draft Mappers' Code written by Frederik some
> time ago after extensive discussion with the rest of the DWG. When I
> signed up to the DWG I tried to condense that draft into a
> single-screen, single-page, easily digestible version appropriate to
> show to new mappers and to put on the registration pages. My ideal for
> the doc is that it expresses the core principles of contributing to OSM
> without besetting anyone with rules, and that it's as short as possible
> without missing out anything important to know. I encourage people to
> post scathing critiques on the Talk: page in addition to here on the
> list. 
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:How_We_Map
> 
> For the benefit of the really lazy or bandwidth-deprived, I include the
> full text of "How We Map" as it stands now, below the fold.
> 
> be well all,
> 
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap is a social activity; it is a teamwork effort by hundreds
> of thousands of people around the globe.
> 
> OpenStreetmap has a tradition of making as few rules as possible.
> 
> Contributions to OpenStreetmap should be:
> 
>Truthful - means that you cannot contribute something you have
>invented.
>Legal - means that you don't copy copyrighted data without
>permission.
>Verifiable - means that others can go there and see for themselves
>if your data is correct.
>Relevant - means that you have to use tags that make clear to others
>how to re-use the data
> 
> When in doubt, also consider the "on the ground rule": map the world as
> it can be observed by someone physically there.
> 
> OpenStreetMap has very few rules on tagging. There are tagging standards
> but they evolve instead of being pushed through.
> 
> OpenStreetMap values local knowledge highly, but mappers should welcome
> edits from outsiders.
> 
> OpenStreetMap values community cohesion over data perfection.
> 
> You do not have to ask permission before modifying existing data. If you
> believe that you can improve something, then do it.
> 
> In talking to other mappers, always assume good intentions.
> 
> If you have a conflict with another mapper that you cannot solve amongst
> yourselves, involve other project members - via the local community
> meetup, the regional mailing list or areas of the forum, or by messaging
> them directly.
> 
> Occasionally you will be contacted by other mappers about edits you have
> made. Please do not ignore them; if the other mapper has taken the time
> to look at your edit and ask you a question, they deserve an answer.
> 
> Do not delete data unless you know (or have very strong reason to
> believe) that it is incorrect.
> 
> Do not engage in large-scale "cleanups" without securing the agreement
> of the relevant community, or talking to the people whose work you aim
> to "clean".
> 
> You may believe your third-party dataset should be added to OSM. Do not
> bulk import data from other sources without first discussing and
> securing agreement on the imports list. 
> 
> -- 
>  Jo Walsh
>  metaz...@fastmail.net
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Ian Dees]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Bryce Nesbitt 
wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Tom MacWright  wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a
>>> discussion on on the "talk" mailing list is going to be able to do here. 
>>> Help
>>> with development or give productive feedback on the issue tracker.
>>
>>
> Productive feedback on the iD issue tracker follows a similar trajectory
> to that on the talk list.  It's not really working there either.
> There seem to be fairly deep seated differences in the philosophy of
> on-boarding new mappers, and those reflect themselves in iD's user
> interface.  Since iD was awarded prime spot on osm, and since it's
> development is tightly held, everyone else is left with no outlet other
> than to complain.
>
> OSM is a very open project in general, but iD's development is very
> tightly held and opinionated.
>

That is very far from the truth. 77 people have contributed to iD [0]. The
code is pretty darn easy to understand and is constructed in a pretty
approachable way. It's well-documented and specific questions are answered
quickly.

If you have something valuable to contribute, iD is one of the best places
to put your time in the OSM world.

[0] https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/graphs/contributors
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Tom MacWright]

How is an open source project that was open source on day one, was publicly
communicated from day one, heavily explained in time-consuming technical
blog posts, has 77 contributors, and has accepted hundreds of pull requests
"tightly held."

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Bryce Nesbitt 
wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Tom MacWright  wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a
>>> discussion on on the "talk" mailing list is going to be able to do here. 
>>> Help
>>> with development or give productive feedback on the issue tracker.
>>
>>
> Productive feedback on the iD issue tracker follows a similar trajectory
> to that on the talk list.  It's not really working there either.
> There seem to be fairly deep seated differences in the philosophy of
> on-boarding new mappers, and those reflect themselves in iD's user
> interface.  Since iD was awarded prime spot on osm, and since it's
> development is tightly held, everyone else is left with no outlet other
> than to complain.
>
> OSM is a very open project in general, but iD's development is very
> tightly held and opinionated.
>
>
>
>> FUD around editors has been discussed to death and it's clear that
>>> writing more emails won't do anything.
>>
>>
> "Fear uncertainty and doubt" implies the criticism is invalid.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Tom MacWright  wrote:

> Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a
>> discussion on on the "talk" mailing list is going to be able to do here. Help
>> with development or give productive feedback on the issue tracker.
>
>
Productive feedback on the iD issue tracker follows a similar trajectory to
that on the talk list.  It's not really working there either.
There seem to be fairly deep seated differences in the philosophy of
on-boarding new mappers, and those reflect themselves in iD's user
interface.  Since iD was awarded prime spot on osm, and since it's
development is tightly held, everyone else is left with no outlet other
than to complain.

OSM is a very open project in general, but iD's development is very tightly
held and opinionated.



> FUD around editors has been discussed to death and it's clear that writing
>> more emails won't do anything.
>
>
"Fear uncertainty and doubt" implies the criticism is invalid.
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Tom MacWright]

>
> Unfortunately, experience suggests that there's relatively little that a
> discussion on on the "talk" mailing list is going to be able to do here.


This. Help with development or give productive feedback on the issue
tracker. FUD around editors has been discussed to death and it's clear that
writing more emails won't do anything.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt 
wrote:

> I agree 100% that iD is making editing mistakes easier, out of proportion
> to the degree to which it makes editing by new users easier.
>
> The delete user interface is particularly fragile, encouraging the most
> pernicious form of damage: silent deletes.
> That goes for both the main map, and associated relations.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I agree 100% that iD is making editing mistakes easier, out of proportion
to the degree to which it makes editing by new users easier.

The delete user interface is particularly fragile, encouraging the most
pernicious form of damage: silent deletes.
That goes for both the main map, and associated relations.
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to locate errors

[Jo Walsh]

The mystery of Lac Leman has now been solved.

Oliver Tonnhofer identified this as a problem with Imposm 2 (but not
Imposm 3) being picky over non-closed relations.

Simon Poole just fixed the dubious way that was hanging out in the
middle of Lac Leman: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/28770763

It should all work properly everywhere by tomorrow, Hendrik :)

w00t everyone 


-- 
  Jo Walsh
  metaz...@fastmail.net

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Jo Walsh wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015, at 10:24 AM, Hendrik Hoeth wrote:
> > - Import planet-150202 into psql-database using imposm. Settings are at
> >   the bottom of this mail.
> > 
> > - The Lake Geneva (Lac Leman, Switzerland) is missing. There is no
> >   polygon data for the lake in my database. Anything else I've looked at
> >   seems to be fine.
> > 
> > How would I find out what to fix?
> 
> Reading back, your problem is probably with imposm being picky; Lac
> Leman is a multipolygon relation, and you're only importing regular
> polygons in your settings file. Vanilla imposm may also be skipping big
> relations? see
> http://imposm.org/docs/imposm/latest/tutorial.html#multipolygon-relation-building
>  
> 
> There is a helpful imposm forum on which i've had advice before and
> you're probably much better off asking there.
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/imposm Today i'm experimenting
> with osm2psql and having a better time with that than imposm, involves
> less upfront thinking. 
> 
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