Re: [OSM-talk] IME no proposals needed | Re: Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
19 Feb 2020, 08:27 by 61sundow...@gmail.com: > There are those who; > think the proposal process it the only way to create wiki pages. > there are those who degenerate wiki pages with few uses, to the extent > of editing those wiki pages to discourage use. > Proposal pages are a better way to create proposals, especially for tags duplicating ones that widely used. But documenting usage is not requiring a proposal.___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] IME no proposals needed | Re: Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
There are those who; think the proposal process it the only way to create wiki pages. there are those who degenerate wiki pages with few uses, to the extent of editing those wiki pages to discourage use. 'Any tags you like' is one mantra ... but documenting them in the wiki and leaving them to evolve looks to beyond some. On 19/2/20 5:33 pm, Rory McCann wrote: I don't know what your experience with the OSM wiki is, but I've created new wiki pages for new tags, without bothering with proposal pages. When has anyone told you that you need to do that? Did someone write that down somewhere? Maybe that should be corrected. Do you have links to where you saw that "rule"? To anyone reading this who is unsure, please feel free to edit the wiki. 🙂 We don't have this silly rules requiring proposal pages (as many have pointed out). (I also don't like making the wiki hard to edit for non technical people. Think of the diversity concerns! 🙂) On 19 February 2020 00:14:21 CET, Yuri Astrakhan wrote: It is very strange that we, on one hand, allow anyone to create any kind of tags (just type it in), and on the other we create so many hurdles to document it (we refuse to allow a wiki page about an item, but instead demand that each key page go through a proposals process, approve it, etc). I believe this is a ridiculous situation solvable with the data items. If I, the editor, create a new tag, I should have a way to type in a short textual description (one/two sentences) explaining what that tag is. Without knowing how to create wiki pages or data item pages or using the right templates, or even knowing which fields to fill out where. Data items allow for that. When a data item is created automatically, it makes the process of adding such documentation very straightforward -- e.g. if one uses iD editor, they simply expand the (i) button next to the tag, click edit, and type in the description. Moreover, it should be possible to do so directly from iD, without going to another page. The eventual goal is to make it simple to add such descriptions __without__ leaving the current editing tool (iD/JOSM/...) and without visiting the wiki. These tools will be able to view other metadata as well -- e.g. if this tag should be usable on a way/node in a consistent way, regardless of the language of the user. On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:54 PM Andrew Hain mailto:andrewhain...@hotmail.co.uk>> wrote: I strongly disagree. It is perfectly useful to document the existence of tags in the database with data items. For example one was created for the key sub_sea:type [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4506] and it has been possible to add this it is a discardable tag that the main OSM editors remove when editing. While it is possible in principle to add a long form tag documentation page, and indeed the presence of the data item is a record that one may be worth writing, it needs a different set of skills to research its content. As such the data item and others like it are useful on their own. -- Andrew *From:* Joseph Eisenberg mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> *Sent:* 18 February 2020 17:28 *To:* osm mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags Data Items should not be created by bot for undocumented tags. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process the Data Items (aka "Wikibase" or "Wiki Data items") are automatically created by a bot, even before a tag is documented, if a tag has a certain standard format and more than 10 uses in the database. The data item is created in this case with the text "‎Created a new Item: Auto-updating from Wiki pages" - e.g. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history This is confusing to users. For example, Item:Q19947 above, "landuse=research" was created before there was a wiki page. Then yesterday a user documented the tag with a page, but did not understand why there was already a data item: "Wikibase entry: evidence for preceding deletion? I've just created landuse=research, but the data item https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history was already existing in December '19. How was the data item then created?" https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F Besided the potential confusion caused by creating these items by bots, I
[OSM-talk] IME no proposals needed | Re: Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
I don't know what your experience with the OSM wiki is, but I've created new wiki pages for new tags, without bothering with proposal pages. When has anyone told you that you need to do that? Did someone write that down somewhere? Maybe that should be corrected. Do you have links to where you saw that "rule"? To anyone reading this who is unsure, please feel free to edit the wiki. 🙂 We don't have this silly rules requiring proposal pages (as many have pointed out). (I also don't like making the wiki hard to edit for non technical people. Think of the diversity concerns! 🙂) On 19 February 2020 00:14:21 CET, Yuri Astrakhan wrote: >It is very strange that we, on one hand, allow anyone to create any >kind of >tags (just type it in), and on the other we create so many hurdles to >document it (we refuse to allow a wiki page about an item, but instead >demand that each key page go through a proposals process, approve it, >etc). I believe this is a ridiculous situation solvable with the data >items. If I, the editor, create a new tag, I should have a way to type >in >a short textual description (one/two sentences) explaining what that >tag >is. Without knowing how to create wiki pages or data item pages or >using >the right templates, or even knowing which fields to fill out where. >Data >items allow for that. > >When a data item is created automatically, it makes the process of >adding >such documentation very straightforward -- e.g. if one uses iD editor, >they >simply expand the (i) button next to the tag, click edit, and type in >the >description. > >Moreover, it should be possible to do so directly from iD, without >going to >another page. The eventual goal is to make it simple to add such >descriptions __without__ leaving the current editing tool (iD/JOSM/...) >and >without visiting the wiki. These tools will be able to view other >metadata >as well -- e.g. if this tag should be usable on a way/node in a >consistent >way, regardless of the language of the user. > >On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:54 PM Andrew Hain > >wrote: > >> I strongly disagree. >> >> It is perfectly useful to document the existence of tags in the >database >> with data items. For example one was created for the key sub_sea:type >[ >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4506] and it has been >possible >> to add this it is a discardable tag that the main OSM editors remove >when >> editing. While it is possible in principle to add a long form tag >> documentation page, and indeed the presence of the data item is a >record >> that one may be worth writing, it needs a different set of skills to >> research its content. As such the data item and others like it are >useful >> on their own. >> >> -- >> Andrew >> -- >> *From:* Joseph Eisenberg >> *Sent:* 18 February 2020 17:28 >> *To:* osm >> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for >undocumented >> tags >> >> Data Items should not be created by bot for undocumented tags. >> >> According to >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process >> the Data Items (aka "Wikibase" or "Wiki Data items") are >automatically >> created by a bot, even before a tag is documented, if a tag has a >> certain standard format and more than 10 uses in the database. >> >> The data item is created in this case with the text "‎Created a new >> Item: Auto-updating from Wiki pages" - e.g. >> >https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history >> >> This is confusing to users. For example, Item:Q19947 above, >> "landuse=research" was created before there was a wiki page. Then >> yesterday a user documented the tag with a page, but did not >> understand why there was already a data item: >> >> "Wikibase entry: evidence for preceding deletion? I've just created >> landuse=research, but the data item >> >https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history >> was already existing in December '19. How was the data item then >> created?" >> >> >https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F >> >> Besided the potential confusion caused by creating these items by >> bots, I think it is a bad idea to encourage wiki users to start >> editing these data items without first creating an actual >> human-readable wiki page to document the tag. >> >> In theory, the "Data Items" can be useful if they properly document >> how tags are used, in a way that is easier for computers to handle, >> but this only works if the data is maintained and updated. >> >> Creating a new wiki page (by human) will alert other users via >> "Special:Recent" and "Special:NewPages", while the stream of items >> created by bots is too much for humans to maintain, and the page >names >> are too obscure (Item: Q19947 is meaningless) to be scanned by >humans. >> >> Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data >> items for documented tags which already have a w
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
18 Feb 2020, 21:57 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > > sent from a phone > >> Il giorno 18 feb 2020, alle ore 18:32, Joseph Eisenberg >> ha scritto: >> >> Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data >> items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least >> one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for >> undocumented tags. >> > > > > I agree. > I agree, with main motivation of discouraging data items from replacing wiki pages.___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Web editors and lane rendering
19 Feb 2020, 05:57 by ba...@ursamundi.org: > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:45 PM Mateusz Konieczny >> but have you checked whatever some simple form >> of displaying this tags is already requested for iD? >> > > It's definitely not. Here's what JOSM and what ID shows over the Bing > imagery at the same junction (I 405 at CA 22): > https://imgur.com/a/j5Kz7PF> >  > In that case I would suggest creating an issue at the iD issue tracker requesting at least basic display of this tags. (if you are unfamiliar with that and are unsure how to do this - let us know what is the problem and where you are stuck) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Web editors and lane rendering
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:45 PM Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > > 19 Feb 2020, 05:27 by ba...@ursamundi.org: > > Could we get some lane editing/rendering in these editors to cut down on > this kind of unintentionally erratic mapping? > > Not sure whatever Potlatch is still developed, > I would hope it is if it's still considered an available selection on the website; if not, maybe it's time to retire that option. > but have you checked whatever some simple form > of displaying this tags is already requested for iD? > It's definitely not. Here's what JOSM and what ID shows over the Bing imagery at the same junction (I 405 at CA 22): https://imgur.com/a/j5Kz7PF ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Web editors and lane rendering
19 Feb 2020, 05:27 by ba...@ursamundi.org: > Could we get some lane editing/rendering in these editors to cut down on this > kind of unintentionally erratic mapping? > Not sure whatever Potlatch is still developed, but have you checked whatever some simple formof displaying this tags is already requested for iD?___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Web editors and lane rendering
I'm working on editing I 405 in Los Angeles, California for lane guidance, and at almost 150 miles not counting ramps, it's a big effort to go through, so it's taken enough time that others are editing around where I started. No big deal, I'm fine with that, *except...* I'm consistently noticing users of Potlatch and Id are ignoring placement=*, lanes=* and turn:lanes=* tags, reconnecting ramps I already adjusted and tagged to connect much farther down in a place that disagrees with what's going on in the lane tagging (and this will result in incorrect guidance). I'm curious if there's any reason that id and Potlatch don't render lanes and placement tags. I suspect the fact that they're not made obvious to the user is the reason why mappers using these editors are seeming to ignore something made quite obvious in JOSM. Could we get some lane editing/rendering in these editors to cut down on this kind of unintentionally erratic mapping? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
19 Feb 2020, 00:14 by yuriastrak...@gmail.com: > It is very strange that we, on one hand, allow anyone to create any kind of > tags (just type it in), and on the other we create so many hurdles to > document it (we refuse to allow a wiki page about an item, but instead demand > that each key page go through a proposals process, approve it, etc). > New pages are very often created without a proposal process. It is untrue that tag needs to go through a proposal process to be documented. And it is desirable to create such pages. To repeat: people are welcomed to create new pages for not yet documented tags and values. Easiest way to do this is to copy content from the existing page and edit it. In case of technical issues feel free to save broken version and sunshine will fix it, or create page without infobox template or ask for help. You may be confusing it with mentioning new tags on pages describing popular tags. > When a data item is created automatically, it makes the process of adding > such documentation very straightforward -- e.g. if one uses iD editor, they > simply expand the (i) button next to the tag, click edit, and type in the > description. > See above, you solve problem that does NOT exists. And iD goal is to hide existence of tags from mappers. I am not a fan of solution that would make easy for such mappers to edit tag descriptions. Is it actually implemented? If yes - is anyone looking at quality of changes made? (I keep data items of my wiki watchlistas it is impossible to hide edits indescriptions in languages unfamiliar to me) > Moreover, it should be possible to do so directly from iD, without going to > another page. The eventual goal is to make it simple to add such descriptions > __without__ leaving the current editing tool (iD/JOSM/...) and without > visiting the wiki. > So goal is to make easy to diverge OSM Wiki page description from its summary description, due to allowing to edit without looking at context? I see it as the next major negative for data items.___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
> How is this synchronized? > Will every user be able to change the definition of any tag for everyone? >Is there some kind of moderation or peer review? Good questions. If the tag is already frequently used, the description should be based on how the tag has been used, not merely on one user’s opinions. >Or is it a question whether you’re the first person or not and modifying is not possible? If the tag has never before been used, then it would make sense to ask the mapper to describe the tag when they attempt to add it in JOSM or iD etc. This suggests that an Item:Q page should be be created by the Editor application at the time when the “description=“ is added. Is there any technical reason that would not work? Could a stub Wiki Tag: or Key: page be created instead or in addition? - Joseph Eisenberg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
> “ we refuse to allow a wiki page about an item, but instead demand that each key page go through a proposals process” This is incorrect. Anyone can make a new wiki page for a tag, and it happens several times a day on average. There are more new Tag: and Key: pages than new proposal pages. I did not say anything against creating wiki pages to document tags. When I last asked about this, it was clear that most people think it is fine to follow “Any Tags You Like” by creating new wiki pages for any tag you have used. But I am unhappy with the bot creating Item:Q pages which are essential blank: they only have the key=value and the item Q code. What do you see as the benefit for creating such a data Item page for any tag which has been used merely a dozen times and has not been documented anywhere? The claim above is that mappers should be able to add a description or translation or in JOSM or iD directly, but couldn’t the Item:Q* page be created at that time? -Joseph Eisenberg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
sent from a phone > Il giorno 19 feb 2020, alle ore 00:17, Yuri Astrakhan > ha scritto: > > When a data item is created automatically, it makes the process of adding > such documentation very straightforward -- e.g. if one uses iD editor, they > simply expand the (i) button next to the tag, click edit, and type in the > description. iD users typically don’t even see tags, it’s also a goal of the developers that users don’t have to care about tags. Are you writing about preset descriptions? > > Moreover, it should be possible to do so directly from iD, without going to > another page. The eventual goal is to make it simple to add such descriptions > __without__ leaving the current editing tool (iD/JOSM/...) and without > visiting the wiki. How is this synchronized? Will every user be able to change the definition of any tag for everyone? Is there some kind of moderation or peer review? Or is it a question whether you’re the first person or not and modifying is not possible? Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
It is very strange that we, on one hand, allow anyone to create any kind of tags (just type it in), and on the other we create so many hurdles to document it (we refuse to allow a wiki page about an item, but instead demand that each key page go through a proposals process, approve it, etc). I believe this is a ridiculous situation solvable with the data items. If I, the editor, create a new tag, I should have a way to type in a short textual description (one/two sentences) explaining what that tag is. Without knowing how to create wiki pages or data item pages or using the right templates, or even knowing which fields to fill out where. Data items allow for that. When a data item is created automatically, it makes the process of adding such documentation very straightforward -- e.g. if one uses iD editor, they simply expand the (i) button next to the tag, click edit, and type in the description. Moreover, it should be possible to do so directly from iD, without going to another page. The eventual goal is to make it simple to add such descriptions __without__ leaving the current editing tool (iD/JOSM/...) and without visiting the wiki. These tools will be able to view other metadata as well -- e.g. if this tag should be usable on a way/node in a consistent way, regardless of the language of the user. On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:54 PM Andrew Hain wrote: > I strongly disagree. > > It is perfectly useful to document the existence of tags in the database > with data items. For example one was created for the key sub_sea:type [ > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4506] and it has been possible > to add this it is a discardable tag that the main OSM editors remove when > editing. While it is possible in principle to add a long form tag > documentation page, and indeed the presence of the data item is a record > that one may be worth writing, it needs a different set of skills to > research its content. As such the data item and others like it are useful > on their own. > > -- > Andrew > -- > *From:* Joseph Eisenberg > *Sent:* 18 February 2020 17:28 > *To:* osm > *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented > tags > > Data Items should not be created by bot for undocumented tags. > > According to > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process > the Data Items (aka "Wikibase" or "Wiki Data items") are automatically > created by a bot, even before a tag is documented, if a tag has a > certain standard format and more than 10 uses in the database. > > The data item is created in this case with the text "‎Created a new > Item: Auto-updating from Wiki pages" - e.g. > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history > > This is confusing to users. For example, Item:Q19947 above, > "landuse=research" was created before there was a wiki page. Then > yesterday a user documented the tag with a page, but did not > understand why there was already a data item: > > "Wikibase entry: evidence for preceding deletion? I've just created > landuse=research, but the data item > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history > was already existing in December '19. How was the data item then > created?" > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F > > Besided the potential confusion caused by creating these items by > bots, I think it is a bad idea to encourage wiki users to start > editing these data items without first creating an actual > human-readable wiki page to document the tag. > > In theory, the "Data Items" can be useful if they properly document > how tags are used, in a way that is easier for computers to handle, > but this only works if the data is maintained and updated. > > Creating a new wiki page (by human) will alert other users via > "Special:Recent" and "Special:NewPages", while the stream of items > created by bots is too much for humans to maintain, and the page names > are too obscure (Item: Q19947 is meaningless) to be scanned by humans. > > Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data > items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least > one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for > undocumented tags. > > Joseph Eisenberg > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
I strongly disagree. It is perfectly useful to document the existence of tags in the database with data items. For example one was created for the key sub_sea:type [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4506] and it has been possible to add this it is a discardable tag that the main OSM editors remove when editing. While it is possible in principle to add a long form tag documentation page, and indeed the presence of the data item is a record that one may be worth writing, it needs a different set of skills to research its content. As such the data item and others like it are useful on their own. -- Andrew From: Joseph Eisenberg Sent: 18 February 2020 17:28 To: osm Subject: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags Data Items should not be created by bot for undocumented tags. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process the Data Items (aka "Wikibase" or "Wiki Data items") are automatically created by a bot, even before a tag is documented, if a tag has a certain standard format and more than 10 uses in the database. The data item is created in this case with the text "‎Created a new Item: Auto-updating from Wiki pages" - e.g. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history This is confusing to users. For example, Item:Q19947 above, "landuse=research" was created before there was a wiki page. Then yesterday a user documented the tag with a page, but did not understand why there was already a data item: "Wikibase entry: evidence for preceding deletion? I've just created landuse=research, but the data item https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history was already existing in December '19. How was the data item then created?" https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F Besided the potential confusion caused by creating these items by bots, I think it is a bad idea to encourage wiki users to start editing these data items without first creating an actual human-readable wiki page to document the tag. In theory, the "Data Items" can be useful if they properly document how tags are used, in a way that is easier for computers to handle, but this only works if the data is maintained and updated. Creating a new wiki page (by human) will alert other users via "Special:Recent" and "Special:NewPages", while the stream of items created by bots is too much for humans to maintain, and the page names are too obscure (Item: Q19947 is meaningless) to be scanned by humans. Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for undocumented tags. Joseph Eisenberg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
sent from a phone > Il giorno 18 feb 2020, alle ore 18:32, Joseph Eisenberg > ha scritto: > > Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data > items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least > one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for > undocumented tags. I agree. Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Call for participation SotM 2020 Cape Town ends Sunday, February 23rd
Hi all, just a quick remainder that the call for participation for State of the Map 2020 ends this Sunday, February 23rd. We are looking forward to your proposals for talks, workshops, panels for a diverse range of topics around OpenStreetMap. For more information see: https://2020.stateofthemap.org/cfp/ SotM 2020 once more also has an academic track. The call for papers for this track is open until March 9th. More inforation at: https://2020.stateofthemap.org/cfp/academic/ We strive to put together a programe that reflects the diversity of our community. To help with that, please also forward this remainder to your local OSM groups. And if you know somebody doing exciting work around OpenStreetMap, don't hesitate to personally encourage them to propose a talk, especially when they have not held a talk before. Kind regards Sarah ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
Hi, Am 18.02.20 um 18:46 schrieb Frederik Ramm: > Agree, and I would also request that *any* automated change to the Wiki > be discussed before it is implemented. The use of bots puts too much > power in the hands of those who write them, and this must be balanced by > a requirement to involve the non-bot-writing part of the community > before launch. I think that the Automated Edits Code of Conduct should be extended to edits on the wiki and proposed edits covered by it discussed on this mailing list if their scope is global or spans multiple countries. Best regards Michael signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
Hi, On 18.02.20 18:28, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data > items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least > one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for > undocumented tags. Agree, and I would also request that *any* automated change to the Wiki be discussed before it is implemented. The use of bots puts too much power in the hands of those who write them, and this must be balanced by a requirement to involve the non-bot-writing part of the community before launch. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags
Data Items should not be created by bot for undocumented tags. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process the Data Items (aka "Wikibase" or "Wiki Data items") are automatically created by a bot, even before a tag is documented, if a tag has a certain standard format and more than 10 uses in the database. The data item is created in this case with the text "‎Created a new Item: Auto-updating from Wiki pages" - e.g. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history This is confusing to users. For example, Item:Q19947 above, "landuse=research" was created before there was a wiki page. Then yesterday a user documented the tag with a page, but did not understand why there was already a data item: "Wikibase entry: evidence for preceding deletion? I've just created landuse=research, but the data item https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history was already existing in December '19. How was the data item then created?" https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F Besided the potential confusion caused by creating these items by bots, I think it is a bad idea to encourage wiki users to start editing these data items without first creating an actual human-readable wiki page to document the tag. In theory, the "Data Items" can be useful if they properly document how tags are used, in a way that is easier for computers to handle, but this only works if the data is maintained and updated. Creating a new wiki page (by human) will alert other users via "Special:Recent" and "Special:NewPages", while the stream of items created by bots is too much for humans to maintain, and the page names are too obscure (Item: Q19947 is meaningless) to be scanned by humans. Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for undocumented tags. Joseph Eisenberg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Check use of OpenStreetMap logo/name/fame
On 17/02/2020 17:10, Simon Poole wrote: it would be really nice if the community was equally upset about misusing the OpenStreetMap brand and marks by so many other organisations with the goal of profiting from OSMs popularity oh, this reminds me of something! the community is aware of the misuse of the name "OSM" for promoting mapping activities which have very little to do with OSM? I'm referring to, for example, courses where you learn mapping with QGIS, or whatever, using all sources available, and which culminate with a final step of exporting the produce into OSM. and we volunteering our time for OSM realizing about these activities when they are closed and finished and abandoned, and we may clean up their mess. in one case where I managed to get in touch **before** the start of the activity, I advised following OSM norms and respecting OSM values, and I hinted to make a start by informing the OSM database about the locations of their institution, as shown on a Google-based map. I got this literal answer: »Primeramente en ese mapa no se uso informaciĂłn de OSM. Pero ya veo que en este grupo usted Mario es un burĂłcrata.« (obviously, the guy did not understand I was not alerting them against using OSM data, I was hinting at putting their data into OSM, and against importing data from Google into OSM.) That was in David, ChiriquĂ, Panamá. The group had performed various exports to OSM, some have been rolled back (they explicitly mentioned Google as a source of data), and they shut all communication with me and the Panama OSM Telegram group. "Our" people in David could not care less, and I personally have not been able to contact them any more, and I'm not sure what they now do to promote their courses to the local university (couple of hundreds km from where I reside currently). the OSM logo was part of their strategy. (oh, and something similar happens occasionally from the University of Panama, Panama City.) The events flow I observed: - individuals interested in GIS form a group - they can give an introductory GIS course - they want to sell their time to a local university - they use the name OSM to sell it better - the local university professors know nothing about OSM, or don't care - everything is agreed upon, prepared and executed, outside OSM - they complete the activity on OSM: opening accounts, uploading data, celebrating, all the same day, - they disappear until the next year, where new people will use new accounts. what could go better according to me: - we were more active promoting OSM, its existence, its strong values and the few resulting norms. I'm not so sure how. opening some preferential communication channel? who can do that? in the cases I observed, I should have contacted the institutions involved (as I tried to do), and should have reached the responsible departments (which I did not manage), with some sort of authority (which I do not have). or I don't know. can we black-list IP addresses from which such unchecked activities came in? but yes, this is much more of an issue to me, than a antifa logo. bests to all, and happy mapping, MF ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
Hi, On 17.02.20 21:43, Tomek wrote: > Object 1: > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg > Bench with no writing, mapped to OSM as: > amenity = bench > name = Bench > Is it right to remove the label "name" according to the "I'm mapping > what's on the ground" rule? Yes, I think it is ok, mainly because benches don't usually have names and if they do, the name will not be "Bench". (This applies to removing the name while you're mapping in the area anyway - if you were to search for all amenity=bench name=Bench and remove the name, that would be a mechanical edit in need of prior discussion.) Some benches could have names that might perhaps not always be marked by a sign, just as e.g. some very old trees have names. It is unusual for a bench or tree to have a name but not generally wrong. > Object 2: > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg > Water, certainly no writing indicating its name. > Local name: nobody, because nobody lives there. > Mapped in OSM as: > place = ocean > name = Pacific Ocean > But Poles call it "Ocean Spokojny", French-speaking "Océan Pacifique", > so it would be fair to add the tags name:pl, name:fr, etc. > Is it OK to remove the "name" tag according to the same rule? It is a different case from the above (to be comparable with the above case the name would have to be "Ocean"). I don't have strong feelings about this but for the sake of usability I think I'd leave the name in place. Even though English is not my mother tongue I have absolutely no problem with having a name tag on an international thing in English. In fact I believe I have a bigger problem with people for whom this English name is a problem, because I would regard that attitude as fundamentalist and quarrelsome. I'd prefer if they find other battlegrounds to fight for justice than OSM. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
