[OSM-talk] An own platform for tagging related discussions
Hey, see also https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-September/083286.html (Tagging Goverance) and upfollowing discussion. Some of you and I mentioned that it might be necessary to switch from a mailing list "tagging" to another communication platform like Gitlab (or other git flavored/like system), a forum, wiki or creating an own platform. In this e-mail I will write you about the latter option because I find it interesting but also a risky step. Why it's interesting to have and build an own platform for "tagging" and why it has some (dis)advantages. First the disadvantages: 1. We need a group of developers we can trust, who do it voluntary and who are part of the OSM community. (see the idea-mockup in the attachment I created as an idea how it can but doesn't need to lock and work) 2. It needs to be maintained actively. That's actually the risky part I think. Now the advantages: 1. Independence from outside 2. We can do what we want, build our very own modifications. 3. Integration within the other community channels throw integrations. I don't want to say that we have all these (dis)advantages not when we use existing systems. We can have other (dis)advantages with other systems too. But we might have to take this step "creating our own system", if we cannot find an existing system suitable for us. My approach is not an "all-fitting nice solution" for all things related Tagging Governance. Tagging Governance is complex. Beside the discussion part which takes currently place in the mailing list it makes its hand also dirty in voting, proposal writing, maintaining proposal, announcing tagging changes (WeeklyOSM does a great job but we might need an extra channel to communicate tagging changes (e.g. throw tagging presets, editor tools like iD, JOSM, Vespucci, OSM Go)), deprecation of tags, keeping wiki pages about tags up to date, keeping presets up to date etc. Cheers Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] lines, drawing.
Could you provide us with more info about what needs to be fixed please?CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: [OSM-talk] lines, drawing.From: 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: can someone fix this page ? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/LinesTab ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Governance
> For writing any larger body of text collaboratively you will need to > compartmentalize to some extent and have different-people focus on > different parts of the whole thing and coordination between those will > need to happen through human evaluation and human communication.+10 Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging GovernanceFrom: Christoph Hormann To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: On Thursday 12 September 2019, Roland Olbricht wrote:> Thus the question is: are contradictions between pages a problem? If> yes then a holisitic toolset may do better, if not then the holistic> tool has no advantage in this regard.Yes they are but it is unrealistic in practical work on any text document of considerable size to keep it contradiction free at all times.For writing any larger body of text collaboratively you will need to compartmentalize to some extent and have different people focus on different parts of the whole thing and coordination between those will need to happen through human evaluation and human communication.Being able to keep an eye on the whole while working on the details is one of the core qualifications necessary for this. There are no interface specifications and unit tests in text writing. There is also usually a significant benefit in terms of clarity and readability of text if there is clear individual authorship on the level of individul sections or chapters. If you mix different styles of writing on a too fine grained level that often has a negative effect on text quality.As Frederik said the idea to approach this with "Lets use technology X in combination with technology Y and everything else is going to fall into place" is not going to work.The real hurdle here is to set up an editorial baseline of guiding principles and goals and find qualified people willing to contribute to such a project under these principles in the long term. And this is not something you can bootstrap from open community discourse and consensus because then it would be no different from what we already have on the wiki with all the cacophony of different contradicting interests and opinions.Therefore this idea of a curated body of tagging documentation can only be a contribution to open community discourse and governance on tagging, it cannot be the result of it.-- Christoph Hormannhttp://www.imagico.de/___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] MS GitHub? | Re: Tagging Governance
> I was just saying that Markdown, TeX, or> Asciidoc will always exclude a good number of otherwise capable> contributorsWhy wouls Markdown exclude a good number of otherwise capable contributors? Understandable for TeX and maybe Asciidoc (don't know) but for Markdown this cannot be true. Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] MS GitHub? | Re: Tagging GovernanceFrom: Frederik Ramm To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: Hi,On 12.09.19 12:36, Valor Naram via talk wrote:> That's no reason to ban Markdown.Nobody wants to ban anything. I was just saying that Markdown, TeX, orAsciidoc will always exclude a good number of otherwise capablecontributors - that the benefit of "easily version-controllable becauseplain text" comes at a price.ByeFrederik-- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] MS GitHub? | Re: Tagging Governance
> Except that this often excludes everyone who can write and is *not* a> computer programmer.Markdown is NOT a programming language and IS NOT difficult to learn. Markdown is widely used by developers because they're more open and aware to new effective methods. But that does not mean a "normal" person cannot use Markdown becide that Markdown is not mainstream. But think about WhatsApp cheatcodes or the ones Telegram has. These "cheatcodes" to style your writing are similiar to Markdown. One big difference is that Markdown is much more powerful.That's no reason to ban Markdown. Original Message Subject: [OSM-talk] MS GitHub? | Re: Tagging GovernanceFrom: Rory McCann To: Frederik Ramm ,OSM Talk CC: On 12/09/2019 11:36, Frederik Ramm wrote:> Except that this often excludes everyone who can write and is *not* a> computer programmer. It think this is what Christoph hinted at when he> wrote:> >> Is there any mature and writer centric software that implements this>> kind of model? I mean that from the perspective of a documentation>> author offers a wiki like functionality with decent preview and>> formatting but at the same time comes with a kind of version management>> and functions to facilitate editorial review and discussion.I think Microsoft GitHub can do that.It has in-browser editing, live preview of the rendered markdown/etc format, as well as pull requests, forking, comments on changes, permissions, the ability for people to use command line git at home.I don't know what it's like to write lots of docs like that, or if it's still too programming focused, and it's a shame that it's proprietary software from Microsoft, but it might get the job done.Read more: * https://help.github.com/en/articles/editing-files-in-your-repository * https://github.blog/2013-07-11-github-flow-in-the-browser/ * https://help.github.com/en/categories/writing-on-github___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Governance
Hello Roland and other "talkers",I also thought about creating a new better channel for tagging discussions where all sites (mappers (newbies, experienced), developers, researchers etc.) come into play. E.g. we could create IRC rooms for discussions for each tag and have one main IRC room where one can "advertise" for a tag discussion in an IRC room. Votes can still take place in the wiki. But this would just solve one of many OSM issues.I also mentioned in "tagging" the problem of "multiple tags for one purpose" but the emerging discussion there was not kind of discussion I hoped for. I also think that Mailing list isn't the right format for discussions. I think a chat is better suited for discussions. Telegram groups like @osm_de show that it can work throw chatting.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging GovernanceFrom: Christoph Hormann To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: Hello Roland,not sure if you have seen - i already gave my initial thoughts on this onhttps://www.openstreetmap.org/user/imagico/diary/390599-- Christoph Hormannhttp://www.imagico.de/___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Isn't it nice to share? 🙂 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaborati =?utf-8?q?on_with_OpenStreetMap
The time is now to get into dialogues with Facebook's RaID team instead of discussing further what Facebook did/does wrong, how they can improve their AI, how they can improve their communication with the community and what their intentions are.Discussing with Facebook's RaID team is better and more helpful for both sites instead of discussing about Facebook's practise without Facebook's involvement.We should be fair!CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Isn't it nice to share? 🙂 | Re: Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaborati =?utf-8?q?on_with_OpenStreetMapFrom: Joseph Eisenberg To: Marc Gemis CC: Rory McCann ,OSM Talk Facebook probably shouldn't import all of their POIs directly intoOSM. I understand that this could cause problems.But they could make available all sorts of useful data, including aseparate overlay or service that allowed us to see where facebook POIsare located, and manually import them into OSM if they are correct.I believe that also record your GPS coordinates while using the app inmany cases, such as when taking photos. They could make these GPStraces available, like Strava does - quite helpful for finding missingpath connections, and also helps show when a street a closed.They could allow their users to choose to automatically upload photosof businesses and street scenes under a suitable license to aMapillary-like site that could be used for mapping.They could share data that suggest that POIs no longer exist; such asa facebook user clicking a note that says "this place is permanentlyclosed" or "doesn't exist" and we could use that like a note or fixme.I believe these sort of prompts are already automatically suggestedwhen the app sees you are at a POI, as are things questions aboutadditional features (free parking? free wifi, etc?) which could beuseful information for us.None of these options for share-alike would be clearly good forshort-term shareholder value, but they would be quite helpful formappers in OSM, and wouldn't require a massive import.JosephOn 8/2/19, Marc Gemis wrote:> This "self appointed police of OSM" will probably question>> - how did those companies receive the data, under which copyright?> - how did they geocode the POIs, using Google's geocoder ? (a big no-no)> - how up-to-date is this data ? Will you reimport POIs that have been> rightfully removed in OSM ?> - how will you avoid duplicates ?>> all legitimate question imho.>> p.s. people that keep blaming the mailing lists for bad behaviour,> really make me wonder why I keep contributing to OSM (mailing list).> Did you ever wonder that this type of constant nagging might turn off> well-meaning people as much as the people you point at turn off you?>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 9:00 AM Blake Girardot wrote:>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 8:00 AM Rory McCann wrote:>>>>>>>>> Oh yes, there's nothing wrong with Facebook (and Yelp, and TripAdvisor>>> and and) having their own PoI database. But, they _could_ help us,>>> massively, by sharing it. They way they talk about OSM, you'd swear they>>> were already doing all they could to help us.>>>>>> But it's naive to think they ever will. Nothing wrong with that,>>> shareholder value and all that.>>>>>>> Hi Rory,>>>> Respectfully, it is naive to think that even if they did offer their POI>> databases, the self appointed police of OSM would allow the POIs to be>> added to OSM.>>>> Truthfully, it is naive to think that any mapping or data that is not>> contributed just the way the few vocal folks who monopolize these OSM>> lists like, will be accepted.>>>> There really is no way to win with these folks, offer a lot and they>> accuse the contributor of trying to take over and/or destroying OSM, offer>> too little and they accuse the users of taking advantage of OSM.>>>> Best to just do like most folks who are interested in using and>> contributing to OSM do - unsubscribe from these lists and carry on.>>>> cheers,>> Blake>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ___>>> talk mailing list>>> talk@openstreetmap.org>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk>>>>>>>> -->> >> Blake Girardot>> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot>> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot>> skype: jblakegirardot>> ___>> talk mailing list>> talk@openstreetmap.org>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk>> ___> talk mailing list> talk@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk>___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
