Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

4 Jun 2019, 13:14 by roland.olbri...@gmx.de:

> Hi,
>
>> reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
>> the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
>> could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
>> discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
>> and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
>> someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
>> later.
>>
>
> I volunteer to run of birds-of-a-feather on
> "New processes to agree on tagging suggestions and their interaction
> with the editing software available on openstreetmap.org"
> (Feel free to shorten th title as you see fit).
>
Sounds very interesting!

> This gives people not attending the conference better
> chances to get involved.
>
Especially this part.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

[Roland Olbricht]

Hi,


reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.


I volunteer to run of birds-of-a-feather on
"New processes to agree on tagging suggestions and their interaction
with the editing software available on openstreetmap.org"
(Feel free to shorten th title as you see fit).

I do not think that a tribunal on iD is helpful to anyone. Nonetheless,
mappers (and data users) would like to easily find what common sense is
for each kind of object. There is only limited support for the current
wiki and mailing list model. iD's approach earned backlash as well.

I do have 3 to 5 ideas how to lining out common sense of tagging could
be improved. I will not tell them right now: I highly value my
audience's attention, and half-baked ideas waste that precious resource.
Working on them right now, a couple of days before the SotM-FR,
jeopardizes my contribution to that conference and would waste the
attention of the audience there.

I instead suggest to collect ideas with deadline 1st of September. I
commit to present my ideas then and invite everyone to do so as well (on
this list, the wiki, or the forum, other channels if known and openly
available). This gives people not attending the conference better
chances to get involved.

That preparation ensures that we end up with one (or more) deliverables
that can be worked on. This is also the reason to prefer the BoF over a
panel discussion. I am unable to organize a panel discussion in a way
such that it produces a deliverable.

Some keywords to foster hope that there is a way forward:
- Changeset discussions as a social feature have widespread acclaim
- The "Any-Tag-You-Like" principle accompanies and serves OpenStreetMap
since more than a decade
- IETF's "Rough consensus" (RFC7282) has built the internet
- many tools already facilitate to make evidence based decisions,
  e.g. Taginfo in general and Taginfo's list of tag usage
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/highway#projects

Best regards,

Roland

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

[Andrew Hain]

This would be a good idea and it shouldn’t be confined to iD. This is just a 
particularly acute example of something that sometimes happens in OSM. Ideally 
there would be several developers there including iD.

--
Andrew

From: Christine Karch 
Sent: 29 May 2019 10:55
To: talk@openstreetmap.org; osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
Cc: program-sotm
Subject: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at 
SotM?

Hi,

reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.

As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
suitable for the main program at SotM.

Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).

By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
Program announcement will be around 20 June.

We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
be provided until end of July.

Cheers

Christine

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

[JB]

We really have victims here, it seems.
Dear Christine, thank you for your work, thanks for your help, thanks 
for your ideas, thanks for your presence at many OSM events.
Il semble que des personnes n'arrivent pas à gérer des idées différentes 
des leurs. Leurs idées seront toujours les bonnes et les meilleures. Ein 
iD-Panel ist ein gute Idee, aber ich wird in SOTM nicht kommen dieses Jahr.
And yes, the message from this list non-reader confirms that having an 
updates-unwatched iD as default editor on osm.org is now really a bad 
idea. Unfortunately, I (and others probably) will just do nothing about it.

JB, a sometimes-reader, seldom-writer.

Le 29/05/2019 à 17:32, Heather Leson a écrit :

Dear Christine, Bryan and colleagues,

Thank you for this conversation. Christine, thanks for the 
consideration. Many people use ID. It is part of OSM.


Bryan, i will reach out to separately on this topic. My goal is really 
to understand using this example on how we might improve for all 
people. The negativity is hard for me to, so we can start with a chat? 
More in a separate note.
I have also had some interesting experiences and frankly, I think OSM 
deserves to really think and do more. Call me an ally, but I believe 
there is room for all of us. Community health is a big concern.


Thank you

Heather

Heather Leson
heatherle...@gmail.com 
Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson
Blog: textontechs.com 


On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 5:23 PM Bryan Housel > wrote:


Christine..

We mustn't define “the community” as the few remaining handful of
people who have not yet been driven off the mailing lists by
persistent abusers and trolls.

I am very aware of what people are saying about iD on all
discussion channels.  I read all of it, even the stuff written in
other languages, and even archives of mailing lists that I’ve long
unsubscribed from.

I encourage everyone to not put too much stock into what “the
community” of mailing list haters thinks about iD.  It’s the same
dozen or so people who have never liked me or iD much anyway.

I meet with stakeholders every week about the improvements we’ve
made in iD, /and I’m proud of the work that our small team has
been able to accomplish with each new release/.  Right now there
are 1000s of people editing with iD (most volunteering, but some
paid) who will never stop by mailing list or a GitHub thread. 
They far outnumber the voices that you hear on `talk` or `tagging`.


In large part because of the escalating negativity, I will not be
attending State of the Map.

My strong recommendation to you is to fill the program with
content that encourages community health, inspires people to be
better to one another, and celebrates the great things people are
building with OpenStreetMap.

Thanks, Bryan
❤️, 




On May 29, 2019, at 5:55 AM, Christine Karch
mailto:christ...@hermione.de>> wrote:

Hi,

reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that
there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee
in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be
defined
later.

As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
suitable for the main program at SotM.

Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings,
panels
during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).

By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7
July.
Program announcement will be around 20 June.

We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good
to know
if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet
should
be provided until end of July.

Cheers

Christine

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

[john whelan]

I take it by this email you are putting your views and that of your team of
what should be done above everyone else and no one else's views should
count which would be fine for any other editor.

Unfortunately I honestly think there is a change management problem with
the default editor on the front page being updated without any change
management procedures.

Just for the record I'm happy if people wish to use iD, I do have
reservations about the number of horse=yes tags in Africa and I do have
reservations about odd shaped buildings created in iD.

Cheerio John





On Wed, 29 May 2019 at 11:23, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> Christine..
>
> We mustn't define “the community” as the few remaining handful of people
> who have not yet been driven off the mailing lists by persistent abusers
> and trolls.
>
> I am very aware of what people are saying about iD on all discussion
> channels.  I read all of it, even the stuff written in other languages, and
> even archives of mailing lists that I’ve long unsubscribed from.
>
> I encourage everyone to not put too much stock into what “the community”
> of mailing list haters thinks about iD.  It’s the same dozen or so people
> who have never liked me or iD much anyway.
>
> I meet with stakeholders every week about the improvements we’ve made in
> iD, *and I’m proud of the work that our small team has been able to
> accomplish with each new release*.  Right now there are 1000s of people
> editing with iD (most volunteering, but some paid) who will never stop by
> mailing list or a GitHub thread.  They far outnumber the voices that you
> hear on `talk` or `tagging`.
>
> In large part because of the escalating negativity, I will not be
> attending State of the Map.
>
> My strong recommendation to you is to fill the program with content that
> encourages community health, inspires people to be better to one another,
> and celebrates the great things people are building with OpenStreetMap.
>
> Thanks, Bryan
> ❤️, 
>
>
>
> On May 29, 2019, at 5:55 AM, Christine Karch 
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
> the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
> could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
> discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
> and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
> someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
> later.
>
> As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
> suitable for the main program at SotM.
>
> Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
> during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).
>
> By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
> Program announcement will be around 20 June.
>
> We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
> if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
> be provided until end of July.
>
> Cheers
>
> Christine
>
> ___
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> osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

[Heather Leson]

Dear Christine, Bryan and colleagues,

Thank you for this conversation. Christine, thanks for the consideration.
Many people use ID. It is part of OSM.

Bryan, i will reach out to separately on this topic. My goal is really to
understand using this example on how we might improve for all people. The
negativity is hard for me to, so we can start with a chat? More in a
separate note.

I have also had some interesting experiences and frankly, I think OSM
deserves to really think and do more. Call me an ally, but I believe there
is room for all of us. Community health is a big concern.

Thank you

Heather

Heather Leson
heatherle...@gmail.com
Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson
Blog: textontechs.com


On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 5:23 PM Bryan Housel  wrote:

> Christine..
>
> We mustn't define “the community” as the few remaining handful of people
> who have not yet been driven off the mailing lists by persistent abusers
> and trolls.
>
> I am very aware of what people are saying about iD on all discussion
> channels.  I read all of it, even the stuff written in other languages, and
> even archives of mailing lists that I’ve long unsubscribed from.
>
> I encourage everyone to not put too much stock into what “the community”
> of mailing list haters thinks about iD.  It’s the same dozen or so people
> who have never liked me or iD much anyway.
>
> I meet with stakeholders every week about the improvements we’ve made in
> iD, *and I’m proud of the work that our small team has been able to
> accomplish with each new release*.  Right now there are 1000s of people
> editing with iD (most volunteering, but some paid) who will never stop by
> mailing list or a GitHub thread.  They far outnumber the voices that you
> hear on `talk` or `tagging`.
>
> In large part because of the escalating negativity, I will not be
> attending State of the Map.
>
> My strong recommendation to you is to fill the program with content that
> encourages community health, inspires people to be better to one another,
> and celebrates the great things people are building with OpenStreetMap.
>
> Thanks, Bryan
> ❤️, 
>
>
>
> On May 29, 2019, at 5:55 AM, Christine Karch 
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
> the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
> could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
> discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
> and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
> someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
> later.
>
> As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
> suitable for the main program at SotM.
>
> Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
> during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).
>
> By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
> Program announcement will be around 20 June.
>
> We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
> if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
> be provided until end of July.
>
> Cheers
>
> Christine
>
> ___
> osmf-talk mailing list
> osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>
>
> ___
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> osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

[Bryan Housel]

Christine.. 

We mustn't define “the community” as the few remaining handful of people who 
have not yet been driven off the mailing lists by persistent abusers and trolls.

I am very aware of what people are saying about iD on all discussion channels.  
I read all of it, even the stuff written in other languages, and even archives 
of mailing lists that I’ve long unsubscribed from.

I encourage everyone to not put too much stock into what “the community” of 
mailing list haters thinks about iD.  It’s the same dozen or so people who have 
never liked me or iD much anyway.

I meet with stakeholders every week about the improvements we’ve made in iD, 
and I’m proud of the work that our small team has been able to accomplish with 
each new release.  Right now there are 1000s of people editing with iD (most 
volunteering, but some paid) who will never stop by mailing list or a GitHub 
thread.  They far outnumber the voices that you hear on `talk` or `tagging`.

In large part because of the escalating negativity, I will not be attending 
State of the Map.  

My strong recommendation to you is to fill the program with content that 
encourages community health, inspires people to be better to one another, and 
celebrates the great things people are building with OpenStreetMap.

Thanks, Bryan
❤️, 



> On May 29, 2019, at 5:55 AM, Christine Karch  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
> the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
> could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
> discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
> and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
> someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
> later.
> 
> As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
> suitable for the main program at SotM.
> 
> Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
> during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).
> 
> By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
> Program announcement will be around 20 June.
> 
> We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
> if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
> be provided until end of July.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Christine
> 
> ___
> osmf-talk mailing list
> osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk

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